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{\n	background-color: #ececec;\n}\n\ndiv.rules {\n	background-color: #ececec;\n	color: #bcbcbc;\n	padding: 0 10px;\n	margin: 10px 0;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\ndiv.rules ul {\n	margin-left: 20px;\n}\n\np.rules {\n	background-color: #ececec;\n	background-image: none;\n	padding: 5px;\n}\n\np.rules img {\n	vertical-align: middle;\n}\n\np.rules a {\n	vertical-align: middle;\n	clear: both;\n}\n\n#top {\n	position: absolute;\n	top: -20px;\n}\n\n.clear {\n	display: block;\n	clear: both;\n	font-size: 1px;\n	line-height: 1px;\n	background: transparent;\n}\n/* proSilver Link Styles\n---------------------------------------- */\n\na:link	{ color: #898989; text-decoration: none; }\na:visited	{ color: #898989; text-decoration: none; }\na:hover	{ color: #d3d3d3; text-decoration: underline; }\na:active	{ color: #d2d2d2; text-decoration: none; }\n\n/* Coloured usernames */\n.username-coloured {\n	font-weight: bold;\n	display: inline !important;\n}\n\n/* Links on gradient backgrounds */\n#search-box a:link, .navbg a:link, .forumbg .header a:link, .forabg .header a:link, th a:link {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n#search-box a:visited, .navbg a:visited, .forumbg .header a:visited, .forabg .header a:visited, th a:visited {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n#search-box a:hover, .navbg a:hover, .forumbg .header a:hover, .forabg .header a:hover, th a:hover {\n	color: #ffffff;\n	text-decoration: underline;\n}\n\n#search-box a:active, .navbg a:active, .forumbg .header a:active, .forabg .header a:active, th a:active {\n	color: #ffffff;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n/* Links for forum/topic lists */\na.forumtitle {\n	font-family: \"Trebuchet MS\", Helvetica, Arial, Sans-serif;\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	color: #898989;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n/* a.forumtitle:visited { color: #898989; } */\n\na.forumtitle:hover {\n	color: #bcbcbc;\n	text-decoration: underline;\n}\n\na.forumtitle:active {\n	color: #898989;\n}\n\na.topictitle {\n	font-family: \"Trebuchet MS\", Helvetica, Arial, Sans-serif;\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	color: #898989;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n/* a.topictitle:visited { color: #d2d2d2; } */\n\na.topictitle:hover {\n	color: #bcbcbc;\n	text-decoration: underline;\n}\n\na.topictitle:active {\n	color: #898989;\n}\n\n/* Post body links */\n.postlink {\n	text-decoration: none;\n	color: #d2d2d2;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #d2d2d2;\n	padding-bottom: 0;\n}\n\n.postlink:visited {\n	color: #bdbdbd;\n	border-bottom-style: dotted;\n	border-bottom-color: #666666;\n}\n\n.postlink:active {\n	color: #d2d2d2;\n}\n\n.postlink:hover {\n	background-color: #f6f6f6;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	color: #404040;\n}\n\n.signature a, .signature a:visited, .signature a:active, .signature a:hover {\n	border: none;\n	text-decoration: underline;\n	background-color: transparent;\n}\n\n/* Profile links */\n.postprofile a:link, .postprofile a:active, .postprofile a:visited, .postprofile dt.author a {\n	font-weight: bold;\n	color: #898989;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n.postprofile a:hover, .postprofile dt.author a:hover {\n	text-decoration: underline;\n	color: #d3d3d3;\n}\n\n\n/* Profile searchresults */	\n.search .postprofile a {\n	color: #898989;\n	text-decoration: none; \n	font-weight: normal;\n}\n\n.search .postprofile a:hover {\n	color: #d3d3d3;\n	text-decoration: underline; \n}\n\n/* Back to top of page */\n.back2top {\n	clear: both;\n	height: 11px;\n	text-align: right;\n}\n\na.top {\n	background: none no-repeat top left;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	width: {IMG_ICON_BACK_TOP_WIDTH}px;\n	height: {IMG_ICON_BACK_TOP_HEIGHT}px;\n	display: block;\n	float: right;\n	overflow: hidden;\n	letter-spacing: 1000px;\n	text-indent: 11px;\n}\n\na.top2 {\n	background: none no-repeat 0 50%;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	padding-left: 15px;\n}\n\n/* Arrow links  */\na.up		{ background: none no-repeat left center; }\na.down		{ background: none no-repeat right center; }\na.left		{ background: none no-repeat 3px 60%; }\na.right		{ background: none no-repeat 95% 60%; }\n\na.up, a.up:link, a.up:active, a.up:visited {\n	padding-left: 10px;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	border-bottom-width: 0;\n}\n\na.up:hover {\n	background-position: left top;\n	background-color: transparent;\n}\n\na.down, a.down:link, a.down:active, a.down:visited {\n	padding-right: 10px;\n}\n\na.down:hover {\n	background-position: right bottom;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\na.left, a.left:active, a.left:visited {\n	padding-left: 12px;\n}\n\na.left:hover {\n	color: #d2d2d2;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	background-position: 0 60%;\n}\n\na.right, a.right:active, a.right:visited {\n	padding-right: 12px;\n}\n\na.right:hover {\n	color: #d2d2d2;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	background-position: 100% 60%;\n}\n/* proSilver Content Styles\n---------------------------------------- */\n\nul.topiclist {\n	display: block;\n	list-style-type: none;\n	margin: 0;\n}\n\nul.forums {\n	background: #f9f9f9 none repeat-x 0 0;\n}\n\nul.topiclist li {\n	display: block;\n	list-style-type: none;\n	color: #777777;\n	margin: 0;\n}\n\nul.topiclist dl {\n	position: relative;\n}\n\nul.topiclist li.row dl {\n	padding: 2px 0;\n}\n\nul.topiclist dt {\n	display: block;\n	float: left;\n	width: 50%;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n	padding-left: 5px;\n	padding-right: 5px;\n}\n\nul.topiclist dd {\n	display: block;\n	float: left;\n	border-left: 1px solid #FFFFFF;\n	padding: 4px 0;\n}\n\nul.topiclist dfn {\n	/* Labels for post/view counts */\n	display: none;\n}\n\nul.topiclist li.row dt a.subforum {\n	background-image: none;\n	background-position: 0 50%;\n	background-repeat: no-repeat;\n	position: relative;\n	white-space: nowrap;\n	padding: 0 0 0 12px;\n}\n\n.forum-image {\n	float: left;\n	padding-top: 5px;\n	margin-right: 5px;\n}\n\nli.row {\n	border-top: 1px solid #FFFFFF;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #8f8f8f;\n}\n\nli.row strong {\n	font-weight: normal;\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\nli.row:hover {\n	background-color: #f6f6f6;\n}\n\nli.row:hover dd {\n	border-left-color: #CCCCCC;\n}\n\nli.header dt, li.header dd {\n	line-height: 1em;\n	border-left-width: 0;\n	margin: 2px 0 4px 0;\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n	padding-top: 2px;\n	padding-bottom: 2px;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;\n	text-transform: uppercase;\n}\n\nli.header dt {\n	font-weight: bold;\n}\n\nli.header dd {\n	margin-left: 1px;\n}\n\nli.header dl.icon {\n	min-height: 0;\n}\n\nli.header dl.icon dt {\n	/* Tweak for headers alignment when folder icon used */\n	padding-left: 0;\n	padding-right: 50px;\n}\n\n/* Forum list column styles */\ndl.icon {\n	min-height: 35px;\n	background-position: 10px 50%;		/* Position of folder icon */\n	background-repeat: no-repeat;\n}\n\ndl.icon dt {\n	padding-left: 45px;					/* Space for folder icon */\n	background-repeat: no-repeat;\n	background-position: 5px 95%;		/* Position of topic icon */\n}\n\ndd.posts, dd.topics, dd.views {\n	width: 8%;\n	text-align: center;\n	line-height: 2.2em;\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n}\n\ndd.lastpost {\n	width: 25%;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\ndd.redirect {\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n	line-height: 2.5em;\n}\n\ndd.moderation {\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\ndd.lastpost span, ul.topiclist dd.searchby span, ul.topiclist dd.info span, ul.topiclist dd.time span, dd.redirect span, dd.moderation span {\n	display: block;\n	padding-left: 5px;\n}\n\ndd.time {\n	width: auto;\n	line-height: 200%;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\ndd.extra {\n	width: 12%;\n	line-height: 200%;\n	text-align: center;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\ndd.mark {\n	float: right !important;\n	width: 9%;\n	text-align: center;\n	line-height: 200%;\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n}\n\ndd.info {\n	width: 30%;\n}\n\ndd.option {\n	width: 15%;\n	line-height: 200%;\n	text-align: center;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\ndd.searchby {\n	width: 47%;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n	line-height: 1em;\n}\n\nul.topiclist dd.searchextra {\n	margin-left: 5px;\n	padding: 0.2em 0;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n	color: #333333;\n	border-left: none;\n	clear: both;\n	width: 98%;\n	overflow: hidden;\n}\n\n/* Container for post/reply buttons and pagination */\n.topic-actions {\n	margin-bottom: 3px;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n	height: 28px;\n	min-height: 28px;\n}\ndiv[class].topic-actions {\n	height: auto;\n}\n\n/* Post body styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n.postbody {\n	padding: 0;\n	line-height: 1.48em;\n	color: #333333;\n	width: 76%;\n	float: left;\n	clear: both;\n}\n\n.postbody .ignore {\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\n.postbody h3.first {\n	/* The first post on the page uses this */\n	font-size: 1.7em;\n}\n\n.postbody h3 {\n	/* Postbody requires a different h3 format - so change it here */\n	font-size: 1.5em;\n	padding: 2px 0 0 0;\n	margin: 0 0 0.3em 0 !important;\n	text-transform: none;\n	border: none;\n	font-family: \"Trebuchet MS\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	line-height: 125%;\n}\n\n.postbody h3 img {\n	/* Also see tweaks.css */\n	vertical-align: bottom;\n}\n\n.postbody .content {\n	font-size: 1.3em;\n}\n\n.search .postbody {\n	width: 68%\n}\n\n/* Topic review panel\n----------------------------------------*/\n#review {\n	margin-top: 2em;\n}\n\n#topicreview {\n	padding-right: 5px;\n	overflow: auto;\n	height: 300px;\n}\n\n#topicreview .postbody {\n	width: auto;\n	float: none;\n	margin: 0;\n	height: auto;\n}\n\n#topicreview .post {\n	height: auto;\n}\n\n#topicreview h2 {\n	border-bottom-width: 0;\n}\n\n/* Content container styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n.content {\n	min-height: 3em;\n	overflow: hidden;\n	line-height: 1.4em;\n	font-family: \"Lucida Grande\", \"Trebuchet MS\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n.content h2, .panel h2 {\n	font-weight: normal;\n	color: #989898;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #CCCCCC;\n	font-size: 1.6em;\n	margin-top: 0.5em;\n	margin-bottom: 0.5em;\n	padding-bottom: 0.5em;\n}\n\n.panel h3 {\n	margin: 0.5em 0;\n}\n\n.panel p {\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n	margin-bottom: 1em;\n	line-height: 1.4em;\n}\n\n.content p {\n	font-family: \"Lucida Grande\", \"Trebuchet MS\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n	margin-bottom: 1em;\n	line-height: 1.4em;\n}\n\ndl.faq {\n	font-family: \"Lucida Grande\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n	margin-top: 1em;\n	margin-bottom: 2em;\n	line-height: 1.4em;\n}\n\ndl.faq dt {\n	font-weight: bold;\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n.content dl.faq {\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n	margin-bottom: 0.5em;\n}\n\n.content li {\n	list-style-type: inherit;\n}\n\n.content ul, .content ol {\n	margin-bottom: 1em;\n	margin-left: 3em;\n}\n\n.posthilit {\n	background-color: #f3f3f3;\n	color: #BCBCBC;\n	padding: 0 2px 1px 2px;\n}\n\n.announce, .unreadpost {\n	/* Highlight the announcements & unread posts box */\n	border-left-color: #BCBCBC;\n	border-right-color: #BCBCBC;\n}\n\n/* Post author */\np.author {\n	margin: 0 15em 0.6em 0;\n	padding: 0 0 5px 0;\n	font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	line-height: 1.2em;\n}\n\n/* Post signature */\n.signature {\n	margin-top: 1.5em;\n	padding-top: 0.2em;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n	border-top: 1px solid #CCCCCC;\n	clear: left;\n	line-height: 140%;\n	overflow: hidden;\n	width: 100%;\n}\n\ndd .signature {\n	margin: 0;\n	padding: 0;\n	clear: none;\n	border: none;\n}\n\n/* Post noticies */\n.notice {\n	font-family: \"Lucida Grande\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	width: auto;\n	margin-top: 1.5em;\n	padding-top: 0.2em;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	border-top: 1px dashed #CCCCCC;\n	clear: left;\n	line-height: 130%;\n}\n\n/* Jump to post link for now */\nul.searchresults {\n	list-style: none;\n	text-align: right;\n	clear: both;\n}\n\n/* BB Code styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n/* Quote block */\nblockquote {\n	background: #ebebeb none 6px 8px no-repeat;\n	border: 1px solid #dbdbdb;\n	font-size: 0.95em;\n	margin: 0.5em 1px 0 25px;\n	overflow: hidden;\n	padding: 5px;\n}\n\nblockquote blockquote {\n	/* Nested quotes */\n	background-color: #bababa;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	margin: 0.5em 1px 0 15px;	\n}\n\nblockquote blockquote blockquote {\n	/* Nested quotes */\n	background-color: #e4e4e4;\n}\n\nblockquote cite {\n	/* Username/source of quoter */\n	font-style: normal;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	margin-left: 20px;\n	display: block;\n	font-size: 0.9em;\n}\n\nblockquote cite cite {\n	font-size: 1em;\n}\n\nblockquote.uncited {\n	padding-top: 25px;\n}\n\n/* Code block */\ndl.codebox {\n	padding: 3px;\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n	border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;\n	font-size: 1em;\n}\n\ndl.codebox dt {\n	text-transform: uppercase;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #CCCCCC;\n	margin-bottom: 3px;\n	font-size: 0.8em;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	display: block;\n}\n\nblockquote dl.codebox {\n	margin-left: 0;\n}\n\ndl.codebox code {\n	/* Also see tweaks.css */\n	overflow: auto;\n	display: block;\n	height: auto;\n	max-height: 200px;\n	white-space: normal;\n	padding-top: 5px;\n	font: 0.9em Monaco, \"Andale Mono\",\"Courier New\", Courier, mono;\n	line-height: 1.3em;\n	color: #8b8b8b;\n	margin: 2px 0;\n}\n\n.syntaxbg		{ color: #FFFFFF; }\n.syntaxcomment	{ color: #000000; }\n.syntaxdefault	{ color: #bcbcbc; }\n.syntaxhtml		{ color: #000000; }\n.syntaxkeyword	{ color: #585858; }\n.syntaxstring	{ color: #a7a7a7; }\n\n/* Attachments\n----------------------------------------*/\n.attachbox {\n	float: left;\n	width: auto; \n	margin: 5px 5px 5px 0;\n	padding: 6px;\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n	border: 1px dashed #d8d8d8;\n	clear: left;\n}\n\n.pm-message .attachbox {\n	background-color: #f3f3f3;\n}\n\n.attachbox dt {\n	font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;\n	text-transform: uppercase;\n}\n\n.attachbox dd {\n	margin-top: 4px;\n	padding-top: 4px;\n	clear: left;\n	border-top: 1px solid #d8d8d8;\n}\n\n.attachbox dd dd {\n	border: none;\n}\n\n.attachbox p {\n	line-height: 110%;\n	color: #666666;\n	font-weight: normal;\n	clear: left;\n}\n\n.attachbox p.stats\n{\n	line-height: 110%;\n	color: #666666;\n	font-weight: normal;\n	clear: left;\n}\n\n.attach-image {\n	margin: 3px 0;\n	width: 100%;\n	max-height: 350px;\n	overflow: auto;\n}\n\n.attach-image img {\n	border: 1px solid #999999;\n/*	cursor: move; */\n	cursor: default;\n}\n\n/* Inline image thumbnails */\ndiv.inline-attachment dl.thumbnail, div.inline-attachment dl.file {\n	display: block;\n	margin-bottom: 4px;\n}\n\ndiv.inline-attachment p {\n	font-size: 100%;\n}\n\ndl.file {\n	font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;\n	display: block;\n}\n\ndl.file dt {\n	text-transform: none;\n	margin: 0;\n	padding: 0;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;\n}\n\ndl.file dd {\n	color: #666666;\n	margin: 0;\n	padding: 0;	\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail img {\n	padding: 3px;\n	border: 1px solid #666666;\n	background-color: #FFF;\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail dd {\n	color: #666666;\n	font-style: italic;\n	font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;\n}\n\n.attachbox dl.thumbnail dd {\n	font-size: 100%;\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail dt a:hover {\n	background-color: #EEEEEE;\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail dt a:hover img {\n	border: 1px solid #d2d2d2;\n}\n\n/* Post poll styles\n----------------------------------------*/\nfieldset.polls {\n	font-family: \"Trebuchet MS\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dl {\n	margin-top: 5px;\n	border-top: 1px solid #e2e2e2;\n	padding: 5px 0 0 0;\n	line-height: 120%;\n	color: #666666;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dl.voted {\n	font-weight: bold;\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dt {\n	text-align: left;\n	float: left;\n	display: block;\n	width: 30%;\n	border-right: none;\n	padding: 0;\n	margin: 0;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dd {\n	float: left;\n	width: 10%;\n	border-left: none;\n	padding: 0 5px;\n	margin-left: 0;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dd.resultbar {\n	width: 50%;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dd input {\n	margin: 2px 0;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dd div {\n	text-align: right;\n	font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	padding: 0 2px;\n	overflow: visible;\n	min-width: 2%;\n}\n\n.pollbar1 {\n	background-color: #aaaaaa;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #747474;\n	border-right: 1px solid #747474;\n}\n\n.pollbar2 {\n	background-color: #bebebe;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #8c8c8c;\n	border-right: 1px solid #8c8c8c;\n}\n\n.pollbar3 {\n	background-color: #D1D1D1;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #aaaaaa;\n	border-right: 1px solid #aaaaaa;\n}\n\n.pollbar4 {\n	background-color: #e4e4e4;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #bebebe;\n	border-right: 1px solid #bebebe;\n}\n\n.pollbar5 {\n	background-color: #f8f8f8;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #D1D1D1;\n	border-right: 1px solid #D1D1D1;\n}\n\n/* Poster profile block\n----------------------------------------*/\n.postprofile {\n	/* Also see tweaks.css */\n	margin: 5px 0 10px 0;\n	min-height: 80px;\n	color: #666666;\n	border-left: 1px solid #FFFFFF;\n	width: 22%;\n	float: right;\n	display: inline;\n}\n.pm .postprofile {\n	border-left: 1px solid #DDDDDD;\n}\n\n.postprofile dd, .postprofile dt {\n	line-height: 1.2em;\n	margin-left: 8px;\n}\n\n.postprofile strong {\n	font-weight: normal;\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\n.avatar {\n	border: none;\n	margin-bottom: 3px;\n}\n\n.online {\n	background-image: none;\n	background-position: 100% 0;\n	background-repeat: no-repeat;\n}\n\n/* Poster profile used by search*/\n.search .postprofile {\n	width: 30%;\n}\n\n/* pm list in compose message if mass pm is enabled */\ndl.pmlist dt {\n	width: 60% !important;\n}\n\ndl.pmlist dt textarea {\n	width: 95%;\n}\n\ndl.pmlist dd {\n	margin-left: 61% !important;\n	margin-bottom: 2px;\n}\n/* proSilver Button Styles\n---------------------------------------- */\n\n/* Rollover buttons\n   Based on: http://wellstyled.com/css-nopreload-rollovers.html\n----------------------------------------*/\n.buttons {\n	float: left;\n	width: auto;\n	height: auto;\n}\n\n/* Rollover state */\n.buttons div {\n	float: left;\n	margin: 0 5px 0 0;\n	background-position: 0 100%;\n}\n\n/* Rolloff state */\n.buttons div a {\n	display: block;\n	width: 100%;\n	height: 100%;\n	background-position: 0 0;\n	position: relative;\n	overflow: hidden;\n}\n\n/* Hide <a> text and hide off-state image when rolling over (prevents flicker in IE) */\n/*.buttons div span		{ display: none; }*/\n/*.buttons div a:hover	{ background-image: none; }*/\n.buttons div span			{ position: absolute; width: 100%; height: 100%; cursor: pointer;}\n.buttons div a:hover span	{ background-position: 0 100%; }\n\n/* Big button images */\n.reply-icon span	{ background: transparent none 0 0 no-repeat; }\n.post-icon span		{ background: transparent none 0 0 no-repeat; }\n.locked-icon span	{ background: transparent none 0 0 no-repeat; }\n.pmreply-icon span	{ background: none 0 0 no-repeat; }\n.newpm-icon span 	{ background: none 0 0 no-repeat; }\n.forwardpm-icon span 	{ background: none 0 0 no-repeat; }\n\n/* Set big button dimensions */\n.buttons div.reply-icon		{ width: {IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_REPLY_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_REPLY_HEIGHT}px; }\n.buttons div.post-icon		{ width: {IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_NEW_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_NEW_HEIGHT}px; }\n.buttons div.locked-icon	{ width: {IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_LOCKED_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_LOCKED_HEIGHT}px; }\n.buttons div.pmreply-icon	{ width: {IMG_BUTTON_PM_REPLY_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_BUTTON_PM_REPLY_HEIGHT}px; }\n.buttons div.newpm-icon		{ width: {IMG_BUTTON_PM_NEW_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_BUTTON_PM_NEW_HEIGHT}px; }\n.buttons div.forwardpm-icon	{ width: {IMG_BUTTON_PM_FORWARD_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_BUTTON_PM_FORWARD_HEIGHT}px; }\n\n/* Sub-header (navigation bar)\n--------------------------------------------- */\na.print, a.sendemail, a.fontsize {\n	display: block;\n	overflow: hidden;\n	height: 18px;\n	text-indent: -5000px;\n	text-align: left;\n	background-repeat: no-repeat;\n}\n\na.print {\n	background-image: none;\n	width: 22px;\n}\n\na.sendemail {\n	background-image: none;\n	width: 22px;\n}\n\na.fontsize {\n	background-image: none;\n	background-position: 0 -1px;\n	width: 29px;\n}\n\na.fontsize:hover {\n	background-position: 0 -20px;\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n/* Icon images\n---------------------------------------- */\n.sitehome, .icon-faq, .icon-members, .icon-home, .icon-ucp, .icon-register, .icon-logout,\n.icon-bookmark, .icon-bump, .icon-subscribe, .icon-unsubscribe, .icon-pages, .icon-search {\n	background-position: 0 50%;\n	background-repeat: no-repeat;\n	background-image: none;\n	padding: 1px 0 0 17px;\n}\n\n/* Poster profile icons\n----------------------------------------*/\nul.profile-icons {\n	padding-top: 10px;\n	list-style: none;\n}\n\n/* Rollover state */\nul.profile-icons li {\n	float: left;\n	margin: 0 6px 3px 0;\n	background-position: 0 100%;\n}\n\n/* Rolloff state */\nul.profile-icons li a {\n	display: block;\n	width: 100%;\n	height: 100%;\n	background-position: 0 0;\n}\n\n/* Hide <a> text and hide off-state image when rolling over (prevents flicker in IE) */\nul.profile-icons li span { display:none; }\nul.profile-icons li a:hover { background: none; }\n\n/* Positioning of moderator icons */\n.postbody ul.profile-icons {\n	float: right;\n	width: auto;\n	padding: 0;\n}\n\n.postbody ul.profile-icons li {\n	margin: 0 3px;\n}\n\n/* Profile & navigation icons */\n.email-icon, .email-icon a		{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.aim-icon, .aim-icon a			{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.yahoo-icon, .yahoo-icon a		{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.web-icon, .web-icon a			{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.msnm-icon, .msnm-icon a			{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.icq-icon, .icq-icon a			{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.jabber-icon, .jabber-icon a		{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.pm-icon, .pm-icon a				{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.quote-icon, .quote-icon a		{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n\n/* Moderator icons */\n.report-icon, .report-icon a		{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.warn-icon, .warn-icon a			{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.edit-icon, .edit-icon a			{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.delete-icon, .delete-icon a		{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n.info-icon, .info-icon a			{ background: none top left no-repeat; }\n\n/* Set profile icon dimensions */\nul.profile-icons li.email-icon		{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_EMAIL_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_EMAIL_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.aim-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_AIM_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_AIM_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.yahoo-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_YAHOO_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_YAHOO_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.web-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_WWW_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_WWW_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.msnm-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_MSNM_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_MSNM_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.icq-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_ICQ_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_ICQ_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.jabber-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_JABBER_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_JABBER_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.pm-icon		{ width: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_PM_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_CONTACT_PM_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.quote-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_POST_QUOTE_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_POST_QUOTE_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.report-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_POST_REPORT_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_POST_REPORT_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.edit-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_POST_EDIT_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_POST_EDIT_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.delete-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_POST_DELETE_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_POST_DELETE_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.info-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_POST_INFO_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_POST_INFO_HEIGHT}px; }\nul.profile-icons li.warn-icon	{ width: {IMG_ICON_USER_WARN_WIDTH}px; height: {IMG_ICON_USER_WARN_HEIGHT}px; }\n\n/* Fix profile icon default margins */\nul.profile-icons li.edit-icon	{ margin: 0 0 0 3px; }\nul.profile-icons li.quote-icon	{ margin: 0 0 0 10px; }\nul.profile-icons li.info-icon, ul.profile-icons li.report-icon	{ margin: 0 3px 0 0; }\n/* proSilver Control Panel Styles\n---------------------------------------- */\n\n\n/* Main CP box\n----------------------------------------*/\n#cp-menu {\n	float:left;\n	width: 19%;\n	margin-top: 1em;\n	margin-bottom: 5px;\n}\n\n#cp-main {\n	float: left;\n	width: 81%;\n}\n\n#cp-main .content {\n	padding: 0;\n}\n\n#cp-main h3, #cp-main hr, #cp-menu hr {\n	border-color: #bfbfbf;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel p {\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel ol {\n	margin-left: 2em;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel li.row {\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #cbcbcb;\n	border-top: 1px solid #F9F9F9;\n}\n\nul.cplist {\n	margin-bottom: 5px;\n	border-top: 1px solid #cbcbcb;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel li.header dd, #cp-main .panel li.header dt {\n	color: #000000;\n	margin-bottom: 2px;\n}\n\n#cp-main table.table1 {\n	margin-bottom: 1em;\n}\n\n#cp-main table.table1 thead th {\n	color: #333333;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #333333;\n	padding: 5px;\n}\n\n#cp-main table.table1 tbody th {\n	font-style: italic;\n	background-color: transparent !important;\n	border-bottom: none;\n}\n\n#cp-main .pagination {\n	float: right;\n	width: auto;\n	padding-top: 1px;\n}\n\n#cp-main .postbody p {\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\n#cp-main .pm-message {\n	border: 1px solid #e2e2e2;\n	margin: 10px 0;\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n	width: auto;\n	float: none;\n}\n\n.pm-message h2 {\n	padding-bottom: 5px;\n}\n\n#cp-main .postbody h3, #cp-main .box2 h3 {\n	margin-top: 0;\n}\n\n#cp-main .buttons {\n	margin-left: 0;\n}\n\n#cp-main ul.linklist {\n	margin: 0;\n}\n\n/* MCP Specific tweaks */\n.mcp-main .postbody {\n	width: 100%;\n}\n\n/* CP tabbed menu\n----------------------------------------*/\n#tabs {\n	line-height: normal;\n	margin: 20px 0 -1px 7px;\n	min-width: 570px;\n}\n\n#tabs ul {\n	margin:0;\n	padding: 0;\n	list-style: none;\n}\n\n#tabs li {\n	display: inline;\n	margin: 0;\n	padding: 0;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	font-weight: bold;\n}\n\n#tabs a {\n	float: left;\n	background: none no-repeat 0% -35px;\n	margin: 0 1px 0 0;\n	padding: 0 0 0 5px;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	position: relative;\n	cursor: pointer;\n}\n\n#tabs a span {\n	float: left;\n	display: block;\n	background: none no-repeat 100% -35px;\n	padding: 6px 10px 6px 5px;\n	color: #828282;\n	white-space: nowrap;\n}\n\n#tabs a:hover span {\n	color: #bcbcbc;\n}\n\n#tabs .activetab a {\n	background-position: 0 0;\n	border-bottom: 1px solid #ebebeb;\n}\n\n#tabs .activetab a span {\n	background-position: 100% 0;\n	padding-bottom: 7px;\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n#tabs a:hover {\n	background-position: 0 -70px;\n}\n\n#tabs a:hover span {\n	background-position:100% -70px;\n}\n\n#tabs .activetab a:hover {\n	background-position: 0 0;\n}\n\n#tabs .activetab a:hover span {\n	color: #000000;\n	background-position: 100% 0;\n}\n\n/* Mini tabbed menu used in MCP\n----------------------------------------*/\n#minitabs {\n	line-height: normal;\n	margin: -20px 7px 0 0;\n}\n\n#minitabs ul {\n	margin:0;\n	padding: 0;\n	list-style: none;\n}\n\n#minitabs li {\n	display: block;\n	float: right;\n	padding: 0 10px 4px 10px;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	background-color: #f2f2f2;\n	margin-left: 2px;\n}\n\n#minitabs a {\n}\n\n#minitabs a:hover {\n	text-decoration: none;\n}\n\n#minitabs li.activetab {\n	background-color: #F9F9F9;\n}\n\n#minitabs li.activetab a, #minitabs li.activetab a:hover {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n/* UCP navigation menu\n----------------------------------------*/\n/* Container for sub-navigation list */\n#navigation {\n	width: 100%;\n	padding-top: 36px;\n}\n\n#navigation ul {\n	list-style:none;\n}\n\n/* Default list state */\n#navigation li {\n	margin: 1px 0;\n	padding: 0;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	display: inline;\n}\n\n/* Link styles for the sub-section links */\n#navigation a {\n	display: block;\n	padding: 5px;\n	margin: 1px 0;\n	text-decoration: none;\n	font-weight: bold;\n	color: #333;\n	background: #cfcfcf none repeat-y 100% 0;\n}\n\n#navigation a:hover {\n	text-decoration: none;\n	background-color: #c6c6c6;\n	color: #bcbcbc;\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#navigation #active-subsection a {\n	display: block;\n	color: #d3d3d3;\n	background-color: #F9F9F9;\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#navigation #active-subsection a:hover {\n	color: #d3d3d3;\n}\n\n/* Preferences pane layout\n----------------------------------------*/\n#cp-main h2 {\n	border-bottom: none;\n	padding: 0;\n	margin-left: 10px;\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel {\n	background-color: #F9F9F9;\n}\n\n#cp-main .pm {\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n#cp-main span.corners-top, #cp-menu span.corners-top {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#cp-main span.corners-top span, #cp-menu span.corners-top span {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#cp-main span.corners-bottom, #cp-menu span.corners-bottom {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#cp-main span.corners-bottom span, #cp-menu span.corners-bottom span {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n/* Topicreview */\n#cp-main .panel #topicreview span.corners-top, #cp-menu .panel #topicreview span.corners-top {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel #topicreview span.corners-top span, #cp-menu .panel #topicreview span.corners-top span {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel #topicreview span.corners-bottom, #cp-menu .panel #topicreview span.corners-bottom {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel #topicreview span.corners-bottom span, #cp-menu .panel #topicreview span.corners-bottom span {\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n/* Friends list */\n.cp-mini {\n	background-color: #f9f9f9;\n	padding: 0 5px;\n	margin: 10px 15px 10px 5px;\n}\n\n.cp-mini span.corners-top, .cp-mini span.corners-bottom {\n	margin: 0 -5px;\n}\n\ndl.mini dt {\n	font-weight: bold;\n	color: #676767;\n}\n\ndl.mini dd {\n	padding-top: 4px;\n}\n\n.friend-online {\n	font-weight: bold;\n}\n\n.friend-offline {\n	font-style: italic;\n}\n\n/* PM Styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n#pm-menu {\n	line-height: 2.5em;\n}\n\n/* PM Message history */\n.current {\n	color: #999999;\n}\n\n/* Defined rules list for PM options */\nol.def-rules {\n	padding-left: 0;\n}\n\nol.def-rules li {\n	line-height: 180%;\n	padding: 1px;\n}\n\n/* PM marking colours */\n.pmlist li.bg1 {\n	border: solid 3px transparent;\n	border-width: 0 3px;\n}\n\n.pmlist li.bg2 {\n	border: solid 3px transparent;\n	border-width: 0 3px;\n}\n\n.pmlist li.pm_message_reported_colour, .pm_message_reported_colour {\n	border-left-color: #bcbcbc;\n	border-right-color: #bcbcbc;\n}\n\n.pmlist li.pm_marked_colour, .pm_marked_colour {\n	border: solid 3px #ffffff;\n	border-width: 0 3px;\n}\n\n.pmlist li.pm_replied_colour, .pm_replied_colour {\n	border: solid 3px #c2c2c2;\n	border-width: 0 3px;	\n}\n\n.pmlist li.pm_friend_colour, .pm_friend_colour {\n	border: solid 3px #bdbdbd;\n	border-width: 0 3px;\n}\n\n.pmlist li.pm_foe_colour, .pm_foe_colour {\n	border: solid 3px #000000;\n	border-width: 0 3px;\n}\n\n.pm-legend {\n	border-left-width: 10px;\n	border-left-style: solid;\n	border-right-width: 0;\n	margin-bottom: 3px;\n	padding-left: 3px;\n}\n\n/* Avatar gallery */\n#gallery label {\n	position: relative;\n	float: left;\n	margin: 10px;\n	padding: 5px;\n	width: auto;\n	background: #FFFFFF;\n	border: 1px solid #CCC;\n	text-align: center;\n}\n\n#gallery label:hover {\n	background-color: #EEE;\n}\n/* proSilver Form Styles\n---------------------------------------- */\n\n/* General form styles\n----------------------------------------*/\nfieldset {\n	border-width: 0;\n	font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	font-size: 1.1em;\n}\n\ninput {\n	font-weight: normal;\n	cursor: pointer;\n	vertical-align: middle;\n	padding: 0 3px;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n}\n\nselect {\n	font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	font-weight: normal;\n	cursor: pointer;\n	vertical-align: middle;\n	border: 1px solid #666666;\n	padding: 1px;\n	background-color: #FAFAFA;\n}\n\noption {\n	padding-right: 1em;\n}\n\noption.disabled-option {\n	color: graytext;\n}\n\ntextarea {\n	font-family: \"Lucida Grande\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	width: 60%;\n	padding: 2px;\n	font-size: 1em;\n	line-height: 1.4em;\n}\n\nlabel {\n	cursor: default;\n	padding-right: 5px;\n	color: #676767;\n}\n\nlabel input {\n	vertical-align: middle;\n}\n\nlabel img {\n	vertical-align: middle;\n}\n\n/* Definition list layout for forms\n---------------------------------------- */\nfieldset dl {\n	padding: 4px 0;\n}\n\nfieldset dt {\n	float: left;	\n	width: 40%;\n	text-align: left;\n	display: block;\n}\n\nfieldset dd {\n	margin-left: 41%;\n	vertical-align: top;\n	margin-bottom: 3px;\n}\n\n/* Specific layout 1 */\nfieldset.fields1 dt {\n	width: 15em;\n	border-right-width: 0;\n}\n\nfieldset.fields1 dd {\n	margin-left: 15em;\n	border-left-width: 0;\n}\n\nfieldset.fields1 {\n	background-color: transparent;\n}\n\nfieldset.fields1 div {\n	margin-bottom: 3px;\n}\n\n/* Specific layout 2 */\nfieldset.fields2 dt {\n	width: 15em;\n	border-right-width: 0;\n}\n\nfieldset.fields2 dd {\n	margin-left: 16em;\n	border-left-width: 0;\n}\n\n/* Form elements */\ndt label {\n	font-weight: bold;\n	text-align: left;\n}\n\ndd label {\n	white-space: nowrap;\n	color: #333;\n}\n\ndd input, dd textarea {\n	margin-right: 3px;\n}\n\ndd select {\n	width: auto;\n}\n\ndd textarea {\n	width: 85%;\n}\n\n/* Hover effects */\nfieldset dl:hover dt label {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\nfieldset.fields2 dl:hover dt label {\n	color: inherit;\n}\n\n#timezone {\n	width: 95%;\n}\n\n* html #timezone {\n	width: 50%;\n}\n\n/* Quick-login on index page */\nfieldset.quick-login {\n	margin-top: 5px;\n}\n\nfieldset.quick-login input {\n	width: auto;\n}\n\nfieldset.quick-login input.inputbox {\n	width: 15%;\n	vertical-align: middle;\n	margin-right: 5px;\n	background-color: #f3f3f3;\n}\n\nfieldset.quick-login label {\n	white-space: nowrap;\n	padding-right: 2px;\n}\n\n/* Display options on viewtopic/viewforum pages  */\nfieldset.display-options {\n	text-align: center;\n	margin: 3px 0 5px 0;\n}\n\nfieldset.display-options label {\n	white-space: nowrap;\n	padding-right: 2px;\n}\n\nfieldset.display-options a {\n	margin-top: 3px;\n}\n\n/* Display actions for ucp and mcp pages */\nfieldset.display-actions {\n	text-align: right;\n	line-height: 2em;\n	white-space: nowrap;\n	padding-right: 1em;\n}\n\nfieldset.display-actions label {\n	white-space: nowrap;\n	padding-right: 2px;\n}\n\nfieldset.sort-options {\n	line-height: 2em;\n}\n\n/* MCP forum selection*/\nfieldset.forum-selection {\n	margin: 5px 0 3px 0;\n	float: right;\n}\n\nfieldset.forum-selection2 {\n	margin: 13px 0 3px 0;\n	float: right;\n}\n\n/* Jumpbox */\nfieldset.jumpbox {\n	text-align: right;\n	margin-top: 15px;\n	height: 2.5em;\n}\n\nfieldset.quickmod {\n	width: 50%;\n	float: right;\n	text-align: right;\n	height: 2.5em;\n}\n\n/* Submit button fieldset */\nfieldset.submit-buttons {\n	text-align: center;\n	vertical-align: middle;\n	margin: 5px 0;\n}\n\nfieldset.submit-buttons input {\n	vertical-align: middle;\n	padding-top: 3px;\n	padding-bottom: 3px;\n}\n\n/* Posting page styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n\n/* Buttons used in the editor */\n#format-buttons {\n	margin: 15px 0 2px 0;\n}\n\n#format-buttons input, #format-buttons select {\n	vertical-align: middle;\n}\n\n/* Main message box */\n#message-box {\n	width: 80%;\n}\n\n#message-box textarea {\n	font-family: \"Trebuchet MS\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	width: 100%;\n	font-size: 1.2em;\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n/* Emoticons panel */\n#smiley-box {\n	width: 18%;\n	float: right;\n}\n\n#smiley-box img {\n	margin: 3px;\n}\n\n/* Input field styles\n---------------------------------------- */\n.inputbox {\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n	border: 1px solid #c0c0c0;\n	color: #333333;\n	padding: 2px;\n	cursor: text;\n}\n\n.inputbox:hover {\n	border: 1px solid #eaeaea;\n}\n\n.inputbox:focus {\n	border: 1px solid #eaeaea;\n	color: #4b4b4b;\n}\n\ninput.inputbox	{ width: 85%; }\ninput.medium	{ width: 50%; }\ninput.narrow	{ width: 25%; }\ninput.tiny		{ width: 125px; }\n\ntextarea.inputbox {\n	width: 85%;\n}\n\n.autowidth {\n	width: auto !important;\n}\n\n/* Form button styles\n---------------------------------------- */\ninput.button1, input.button2 {\n	font-size: 1em;\n}\n\na.button1, input.button1, input.button3, a.button2, input.button2 {\n	width: auto !important;\n	padding-top: 1px;\n	padding-bottom: 1px;\n	font-family: \"Lucida Grande\", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;\n	color: #000;\n	background: #FAFAFA none repeat-x top;\n}\n\na.button1, input.button1 {\n	font-weight: bold;\n	border: 1px solid #666666;\n}\n\ninput.button3 {\n	padding: 0;\n	margin: 0;\n	line-height: 5px;\n	height: 12px;\n	background-image: none;\n	font-variant: small-caps;\n}\n\n/* Alternative button */\na.button2, input.button2, input.button3 {\n	border: 1px solid #666666;\n}\n\n/* <a> button in the style of the form buttons */\na.button1, a.button1:link, a.button1:visited, a.button1:active, a.button2, a.button2:link, a.button2:visited, a.button2:active {\n	text-decoration: none;\n	color: #000000;\n	padding: 2px 8px;\n	line-height: 250%;\n	vertical-align: text-bottom;\n	background-position: 0 1px;\n}\n\n/* Hover states */\na.button1:hover, input.button1:hover, a.button2:hover, input.button2:hover, input.button3:hover {\n	border: 1px solid #BCBCBC;\n	background-position: 0 100%;\n	color: #BCBCBC;\n}\n\ninput.disabled {\n	font-weight: normal;\n	color: #666666;\n}\n\n/* Topic and forum Search */\n.search-box {\n	margin-top: 3px;\n	margin-left: 5px;\n	float: left;\n}\n\n.search-box input {\n}\n\ninput.search {\n	background-image: none;\n	background-repeat: no-repeat;\n	background-position: left 1px;\n	padding-left: 17px;\n}\n\n.full { width: 95%; }\n.medium { width: 50%;}\n.narrow { width: 25%;}\n.tiny { width: 10%;}\n/* proSilver Style Sheet Tweaks\n\nThese style definitions are mainly IE specific \ntweaks required due to its poor CSS support.\n-------------------------------------------------*/\n\n* html table, * html select, * html input { font-size: 100%; }\n* html hr { margin: 0; }\n* html span.corners-top, * html span.corners-bottom { background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/corners_left.gif\"); }\n* html span.corners-top span, * html span.corners-bottom span { background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/corners_right.gif\"); }\n\ntable.table1 {\n	width: 99%;		/* IE < 6 browsers */\n	/* Tantek hack */\n	voice-family: \"\\\"}\\\"\";\n	voice-family: inherit;\n	width: 100%;\n}\nhtml>body table.table1 { width: 100%; }	/* Reset 100% for opera */\n\n* html ul.topiclist li { position: relative; }\n* html .postbody h3 img { vertical-align: middle; }\n\n/* Form styles */\nhtml>body dd label input { vertical-align: text-bottom; }	/* Align checkboxes/radio buttons nicely */\n\n* html input.button1, * html input.button2 {\n	padding-bottom: 0;\n	margin-bottom: 1px;\n}\n\n/* Misc layout styles */\n* html .column1, * html .column2 { width: 45%; }\n\n/* Nice method for clearing floated blocks without having to insert any extra markup (like spacer above)\n   From http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html \n#tabs:after, #minitabs:after, .post:after, .navbar:after, fieldset dl:after, ul.topiclist dl:after, ul.linklist:after, dl.polls:after {\n	content: \".\"; \n	display: block; \n	height: 0; \n	clear: both; \n	visibility: hidden;\n}*/\n\n.clearfix, #tabs, #minitabs, fieldset dl, ul.topiclist dl, dl.polls {\n	height: 1%;\n	overflow: hidden;\n}\n\n/* viewtopic fix */\n* html .post {\n	height: 25%;\n	overflow: hidden;\n}\n\n/* navbar fix */\n* html .clearfix, * html .navbar, ul.linklist {\n	height: 4%;\n	overflow: hidden;\n}\n\n/* Simple fix so forum and topic lists always have a min-height set, even in IE6\n	From http://www.dustindiaz.com/min-height-fast-hack */\ndl.icon {\n	min-height: 35px;\n	height: auto !important;\n	height: 35px;\n}\n\n* html #search-box {\n	width: 25%;\n}\n\n/* Correctly clear floating for details on profile view */\n*:first-child+html dl.details dd {\n	margin-left: 30%;\n	float: none;\n}\n\n* html dl.details dd {\n	margin-left: 30%;\n	float: none;\n}\n/*  	\n--------------------------------------------------------------\nColours and backgrounds for common.css\n-------------------------------------------------------------- */\n\nhtml, body {\n	color: #536482;\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\nh1 {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\nh2 {\n	color: #28313F;\n}\n\nh3 {\n	border-bottom-color: #CCCCCC;\n	color: #115098;\n}\n\nhr {\n	border-color: #FFFFFF;\n	border-top-color: #CCCCCC;\n}\n\nhr.dashed {\n	border-top-color: #CCCCCC;\n}\n\n/* Search box\n--------------------------------------------- */\n\n#search-box {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n#search-box #keywords {\n	background-color: #FFF;\n}\n\n#search-box input {\n	border-color: #0075B0;\n}\n\n/* Round cornered boxes and backgrounds\n---------------------------------------- */\n.headerbar {\n	background-color: #12A3EB;\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/bg_header.gif\");\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n.navbar {\n	background-color: #cadceb;\n}\n\n.forabg {\n	background-color: #0076b1;\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/bg_list.gif\");\n}\n\n.forumbg {\n	background-color: #12A3EB;\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/bg_header.gif\");\n}\n\n.panel {\n	background-color: #ECF1F3;\n	color: #28313F;\n}\n\n.post:target .content {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\n.post:target h3 a {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\n.bg1	{ background-color: #ECF3F7; }\n.bg2	{ background-color: #e1ebf2;  }\n.bg3	{ background-color: #cadceb; }\n\n.ucprowbg {\n	background-color: #DCDEE2;\n}\n\n.fieldsbg {\n	background-color: #E7E8EA;\n}\n\nspan.corners-top {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/corners_left.png\");\n}\n\nspan.corners-top span {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/corners_right.png\");\n}\n\nspan.corners-bottom {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/corners_left.png\");\n}\n\nspan.corners-bottom span {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/corners_right.png\");\n}\n\n/* Horizontal lists\n----------------------------------------*/\n\nul.navlinks {\n	border-bottom-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n/* Table styles\n----------------------------------------*/\ntable.table1 thead th {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\ntable.table1 tbody tr {\n	border-color: #BFC1CF;\n}\n\ntable.table1 tbody tr:hover, table.table1 tbody tr.hover {\n	background-color: #CFE1F6;\n	color: #000;\n}\n\ntable.table1 td {\n	color: #536482;\n}\n\ntable.table1 tbody td {\n	border-top-color: #FAFAFA;\n}\n\ntable.table1 tbody th {\n	border-bottom-color: #000000;\n	color: #333333;\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\ntable.info tbody th {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\n/* Misc layout styles\n---------------------------------------- */\ndl.details dt {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\ndl.details dd {\n	color: #536482;\n}\n\n.sep {\n	color: #1198D9;\n}\n\n/* Pagination\n---------------------------------------- */\n\n.pagination span strong {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n	background-color: #4692BF;\n	border-color: #4692BF;\n}\n\n.pagination span a, .pagination span a:link, .pagination span a:visited, .pagination span a:active {\n	color: #5C758C;\n	background-color: #ECEDEE;\n	border-color: #B4BAC0;\n}\n\n.pagination span a:hover {\n	border-color: #368AD2;\n	background-color: #368AD2;\n	color: #FFF;\n}\n\n/* Pagination in viewforum for multipage topics */\n.row .pagination {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_pages.gif\");\n}\n\n.row .pagination span a, li.pagination span a {\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n.row .pagination span a:hover, li.pagination span a:hover {\n	background-color: #368AD2;\n}\n\n/* Miscellaneous styles\n---------------------------------------- */\n\n.copyright {\n	color: #555555;\n}\n\n.error {\n	color: #BC2A4D;\n}\n\n.reported {\n	background-color: #F7ECEF;\n}\n\nli.reported:hover {\n	background-color: #ECD5D8 !important;\n}\n.sticky, .announce {\n	/* you can add a background for stickies and announcements*/\n}\n\ndiv.rules {\n	background-color: #ECD5D8;\n	color: #BC2A4D;\n}\n\np.rules {\n	background-color: #ECD5D8;\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n/*  	\n--------------------------------------------------------------\nColours and backgrounds for links.css\n-------------------------------------------------------------- */\n\na:link	{ color: #105289; }\na:visited	{ color: #105289; }\na:hover	{ color: #D31141; }\na:active	{ color: #368AD2; }\n\n/* Links on gradient backgrounds */\n#search-box a:link, .navbg a:link, .forumbg .header a:link, .forabg .header a:link, th a:link {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n#search-box a:visited, .navbg a:visited, .forumbg .header a:visited, .forabg .header a:visited, th a:visited {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n#search-box a:hover, .navbg a:hover, .forumbg .header a:hover, .forabg .header a:hover, th a:hover {\n	color: #A8D8FF;\n}\n\n#search-box a:active, .navbg a:active, .forumbg .header a:active, .forabg .header a:active, th a:active {\n	color: #C8E6FF;\n}\n\n/* Links for forum/topic lists */\na.forumtitle {\n	color: #105289;\n}\n\n/* a.forumtitle:visited { color: #105289; } */\n\na.forumtitle:hover {\n	color: #BC2A4D;\n}\n\na.forumtitle:active {\n	color: #105289;\n}\n\na.topictitle {\n	color: #105289;\n}\n\n/* a.topictitle:visited { color: #368AD2; } */\n\na.topictitle:hover {\n	color: #BC2A4D;\n}\n\na.topictitle:active {\n	color: #105289;\n}\n\n/* Post body links */\n.postlink {\n	color: #368AD2;\n	border-bottom-color: #368AD2;\n}\n\n.postlink:visited {\n	color: #5D8FBD;\n	border-bottom-color: #666666;\n}\n\n.postlink:active {\n	color: #368AD2;\n}\n\n.postlink:hover {\n	background-color: #D0E4F6;\n	color: #0D4473;\n}\n\n.signature a, .signature a:visited, .signature a:active, .signature a:hover {\n	background-color: transparent;\n}\n\n/* Profile links */\n.postprofile a:link, .postprofile a:active, .postprofile a:visited, .postprofile dt.author a {\n	color: #105289;\n}\n\n.postprofile a:hover, .postprofile dt.author a:hover {\n	color: #D31141;\n}\n\n/* Profile searchresults */	\n.search .postprofile a {\n	color: #105289;\n}\n\n.search .postprofile a:hover {\n	color: #D31141;\n}\n\n/* Back to top of page */\na.top {\n	background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_BACK_TOP_SRC}\");\n}\n\na.top2 {\n	background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_BACK_TOP_SRC}\");\n}\n\n/* Arrow links  */\na.up		{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/arrow_up.gif\") }\na.down		{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/arrow_down.gif\") }\na.left		{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/arrow_left.gif\") }\na.right		{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/arrow_right.gif\") }\n\na.up:hover {\n	background-color: transparent;\n}\n\na.left:hover {\n	color: #368AD2;\n}\n\na.right:hover {\n	color: #368AD2;\n}\n\n\n/*  	\n--------------------------------------------------------------\nColours and backgrounds for content.css\n-------------------------------------------------------------- */\n\nul.forums {\n	background-color: #eef5f9;\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/gradient.gif\");\n}\n\nul.topiclist li {\n	color: #4C5D77;\n}\n\nul.topiclist dd {\n	border-left-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n.rtl ul.topiclist dd {\n	border-right-color: #fff;\n	border-left-color: transparent;\n}\n\nul.topiclist li.row dt a.subforum.read {\n	background-image: url(\"{IMG_SUBFORUM_READ_SRC}\");\n}\n\nul.topiclist li.row dt a.subforum.unread {\n	background-image: url(\"{IMG_SUBFORUM_UNREAD_SRC}\");\n}\n\nli.row {\n	border-top-color:  #FFFFFF;\n	border-bottom-color: #00608F;\n}\n\nli.row strong {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\nli.row:hover {\n	background-color: #F6F4D0;\n}\n\nli.row:hover dd {\n	border-left-color: #CCCCCC;\n}\n\n.rtl li.row:hover dd {\n	border-right-color: #CCCCCC;\n	border-left-color: transparent;\n}\n\nli.header dt, li.header dd {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n/* Forum list column styles */\nul.topiclist dd.searchextra {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n/* Post body styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n.postbody {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n/* Content container styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n.content {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n.content h2, .panel h2 {\n	color: #115098;\n	border-bottom-color:  #CCCCCC;\n}\n\ndl.faq dt {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n.posthilit {\n	background-color: #F3BFCC;\n	color: #BC2A4D;\n}\n\n/* Post signature */\n.signature {\n	border-top-color: #CCCCCC;\n}\n\n/* Post noticies */\n.notice {\n	border-top-color:  #CCCCCC;\n}\n\n/* BB Code styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n/* Quote block */\nblockquote {\n	background-color: #EBEADD;\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/quote.gif\");\n	border-color:#DBDBCE;\n}\n\nblockquote blockquote {\n	/* Nested quotes */\n	background-color:#EFEED9;\n}\n\nblockquote blockquote blockquote {\n	/* Nested quotes */\n	background-color: #EBEADD;\n}\n\n/* Code block */\ndl.codebox {\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n	border-color: #C9D2D8;\n}\n\ndl.codebox dt {\n	border-bottom-color:  #CCCCCC;\n}\n\ndl.codebox code {\n	color: #2E8B57;\n}\n\n.syntaxbg		{ color: #FFFFFF; }\n.syntaxcomment	{ color: #FF8000; }\n.syntaxdefault	{ color: #0000BB; }\n.syntaxhtml		{ color: #000000; }\n.syntaxkeyword	{ color: #007700; }\n.syntaxstring	{ color: #DD0000; }\n\n/* Attachments\n----------------------------------------*/\n.attachbox {\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n	border-color:  #C9D2D8;\n}\n\n.pm-message .attachbox {\n	background-color: #F2F3F3;\n}\n\n.attachbox dd {\n	border-top-color: #C9D2D8;\n}\n\n.attachbox p {\n	color: #666666;\n}\n\n.attachbox p.stats {\n	color: #666666;\n}\n\n.attach-image img {\n	border-color: #999999;\n}\n\n/* Inline image thumbnails */\n\ndl.file dd {\n	color: #666666;\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail img {\n	border-color: #666666;\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail dd {\n	color: #666666;\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail dt a:hover {\n	background-color: #EEEEEE;\n}\n\ndl.thumbnail dt a:hover img {\n	border-color: #368AD2;\n}\n\n/* Post poll styles\n----------------------------------------*/\n\nfieldset.polls dl {\n	border-top-color: #DCDEE2;\n	color: #666666;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dl.voted {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\nfieldset.polls dd div {\n	color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n.rtl .pollbar1, .rtl .pollbar2, .rtl .pollbar3, .rtl .pollbar4, .rtl .pollbar5 {\n	border-right-color: transparent;\n}\n\n.pollbar1 {\n	background-color: #AA2346;\n	border-bottom-color: #74162C;\n	border-right-color: #74162C;\n}\n\n.rtl .pollbar1 {\n	border-left-color: #74162C;\n}\n\n.pollbar2 {\n	background-color: #BE1E4A;\n	border-bottom-color: #8C1C38;\n	border-right-color: #8C1C38;\n}\n\n.rtl .pollbar2 {\n	border-left-color: #8C1C38;\n}\n\n.pollbar3 {\n	background-color: #D11A4E;\n	border-bottom-color: #AA2346;\n	border-right-color: #AA2346;\n}\n\n.rtl .pollbar3 {\n	border-left-color: #AA2346;\n}\n\n.pollbar4 {\n	background-color: #E41653;\n	border-bottom-color: #BE1E4A;\n	border-right-color: #BE1E4A;\n}\n\n.rtl .pollbar4 {\n	border-left-color: #BE1E4A;\n}\n\n.pollbar5 {\n	background-color: #F81157;\n	border-bottom-color: #D11A4E;\n	border-right-color: #D11A4E;\n}\n\n.rtl .pollbar5 {\n	border-left-color: #D11A4E;\n}\n\n/* Poster profile block\n----------------------------------------*/\n.postprofile {\n	color: #666666;\n	border-left-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n.rtl .postprofile {\n	border-right-color: #FFFFFF;\n	border-left-color: transparent;\n}\n\n.pm .postprofile {\n	border-left-color: #DDDDDD;\n}\n\n.rtl .pm .postprofile {\n	border-right-color: #DDDDDD;\n	border-left-color: transparent;\n}\n\n.postprofile strong {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\n.online {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_IMAGESET_LANG_PATH}/icon_user_online.gif\");\n}\n\n/*  	\n--------------------------------------------------------------\nColours and backgrounds for buttons.css\n-------------------------------------------------------------- */\n\n/* Big button images */\n.reply-icon span	{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_REPLY_SRC}\"); }\n.post-icon span		{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_NEW_SRC}\"); }\n.locked-icon span	{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_BUTTON_TOPIC_LOCKED_SRC}\"); }\n.pmreply-icon span	{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_BUTTON_PM_REPLY_SRC}\") ;}\n.newpm-icon span 	{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_BUTTON_PM_NEW_SRC}\") ;}\n.forwardpm-icon span	{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_BUTTON_PM_FORWARD_SRC}\") ;}\n\na.print {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_print.gif\");\n}\n\na.sendemail {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_sendemail.gif\");\n}\n\na.fontsize {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_fontsize.gif\");\n}\n\n/* Icon images\n---------------------------------------- */\n.sitehome						{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_home.gif\"); }\n.icon-faq						{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_faq.gif\"); }\n.icon-members					{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_members.gif\"); }\n.icon-home						{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_home.gif\"); }\n.icon-ucp						{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_ucp.gif\"); }\n.icon-register					{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_register.gif\"); }\n.icon-logout					{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_logout.gif\"); }\n.icon-bookmark					{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_bookmark.gif\"); }\n.icon-bump						{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_bump.gif\"); }\n.icon-subscribe					{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_subscribe.gif\"); }\n.icon-unsubscribe				{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_unsubscribe.gif\"); }\n.icon-pages						{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_pages.gif\"); }\n.icon-search					{ background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/icon_search.gif\"); }\n\n/* Profile & navigation icons */\n.email-icon, .email-icon a		{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_EMAIL_SRC}\"); }\n.aim-icon, .aim-icon a			{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_AIM_SRC}\"); }\n.yahoo-icon, .yahoo-icon a		{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_YAHOO_SRC}\"); }\n.web-icon, .web-icon a			{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_WWW_SRC}\"); }\n.msnm-icon, .msnm-icon a			{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_MSNM_SRC}\"); }\n.icq-icon, .icq-icon a			{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_ICQ_SRC}\"); }\n.jabber-icon, .jabber-icon a		{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_JABBER_SRC}\"); }\n.pm-icon, .pm-icon a				{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_CONTACT_PM_SRC}\"); }\n.quote-icon, .quote-icon a		{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_POST_QUOTE_SRC}\"); }\n\n/* Moderator icons */\n.report-icon, .report-icon a		{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_POST_REPORT_SRC}\"); }\n.edit-icon, .edit-icon a			{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_POST_EDIT_SRC}\"); }\n.delete-icon, .delete-icon a		{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_POST_DELETE_SRC}\"); }\n.info-icon, .info-icon a			{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_POST_INFO_SRC}\"); }\n.warn-icon, .warn-icon a			{ background-image: url(\"{IMG_ICON_USER_WARN_SRC}\"); } /* Need updated warn icon */\n\n/*  	\n--------------------------------------------------------------\nColours and backgrounds for cp.css\n-------------------------------------------------------------- */\n\n/* Main CP box\n----------------------------------------*/\n\n#cp-main h3, #cp-main hr, #cp-menu hr {\n	border-color: #A4B3BF;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel li.row {\n	border-bottom-color: #B5C1CB;\n	border-top-color: #F9F9F9;\n}\n\nul.cplist {\n	border-top-color: #B5C1CB;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel li.header dd, #cp-main .panel li.header dt {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\n#cp-main table.table1 thead th {\n	color: #333333;\n	border-bottom-color: #333333;\n}\n\n#cp-main .pm-message {\n	border-color: #DBDEE2;\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n/* CP tabbed menu\n----------------------------------------*/\n#tabs a {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/bg_tabs1.gif\");\n}\n\n#tabs a span {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/bg_tabs2.gif\");\n	color: #536482;\n}\n\n#tabs a:hover span {\n	color: #BC2A4D;\n}\n\n#tabs .activetab a {\n	border-bottom-color: #CADCEB;\n}\n\n#tabs .activetab a span {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n#tabs .activetab a:hover span {\n	color: #000000;\n}\n\n/* Mini tabbed menu used in MCP\n----------------------------------------*/\n#minitabs li {\n	background-color: #E1EBF2;\n}\n\n#minitabs li.activetab {\n	background-color: #F9F9F9;\n}\n\n#minitabs li.activetab a, #minitabs li.activetab a:hover {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n/* UCP navigation menu\n----------------------------------------*/\n\n/* Link styles for the sub-section links */\n#navigation a {\n	color: #333;\n	background-color: #B2C2CF;\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/bg_menu.gif\");\n}\n\n#navigation a:hover {\n	background-color: #aabac6;\n	color: #BC2A4D;\n}\n\n#navigation #active-subsection a {\n	color: #D31141;\n	background-color: #F9F9F9;\n	background-image: none;\n}\n\n#navigation #active-subsection a:hover {\n	color: #D31141;\n}\n\n/* Preferences pane layout\n----------------------------------------*/\n#cp-main h2 {\n	color: #333333;\n}\n\n#cp-main .panel {\n	background-color: #F9F9F9;\n}\n\n#cp-main .pm {\n	background-color: #FFFFFF;\n}\n\n#cp-main span.corners-top, #cp-menu span.corners-top {\n	background-image: url(\"{T_THEME_PATH}/images/corners_left2.gif\");\n}\n\n#cp-main span.corners-top span, #cp-menu span.corners-top 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/*!40000 ALTER TABLE `phpbb4_acl_groups` ENABLE KEYS */;

--
-- Table structure for table `phpbb4_acl_options`
--

DROP TABLE IF EXISTS `phpbb4_acl_options`;
CREATE TABLE `phpbb4_acl_options` (
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  `is_global` tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  `is_local` tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  `founder_only` tinyint(1) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
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  KEY `auth_option` (`auth_option`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=utf8 COLLATE=utf8_bin;

--
-- Dumping data for table `phpbb4_acl_options`
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/*!40000 ALTER TABLE `phpbb4_acl_options` DISABLE KEYS */;
LOCK TABLES `phpbb4_acl_options` WRITE;
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UNLOCK TABLES;
/*!40000 ALTER TABLE `phpbb4_acl_options` ENABLE KEYS */;

--
-- Table structure for table `phpbb4_acl_roles`
--

DROP TABLE IF EXISTS `phpbb4_acl_roles`;
CREATE TABLE `phpbb4_acl_roles` (
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) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=utf8 COLLATE=utf8_bin;

--
-- Dumping data for table `phpbb4_acl_roles`
--


/*!40000 ALTER TABLE `phpbb4_acl_roles` DISABLE KEYS */;
LOCK TABLES `phpbb4_acl_roles` WRITE;
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UNLOCK TABLES;
/*!40000 ALTER TABLE `phpbb4_acl_roles` ENABLE KEYS */;

--
-- Table structure for table `phpbb4_acl_roles_data`
--

DROP TABLE IF EXISTS `phpbb4_acl_roles_data`;
CREATE TABLE `phpbb4_acl_roles_data` (
  `role_id` mediumint(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
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  PRIMARY KEY  (`role_id`,`auth_option_id`),
  KEY `ath_op_id` (`auth_option_id`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=utf8 COLLATE=utf8_bin;

--
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-- Table structure for table `phpbb4_acl_users`
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-- Table structure for table `phpbb4_attachments`
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-- Table structure for table `phpbb4_banlist`
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All forums except the \'Debate\' forum are for sharing and/or brainstorming pro-AR topics. ','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,3217,289,289,56474,1750,'Greetings..',1202426869,'a|ien','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(16,49,30,31,'a:1:{i:49;a:2:{i:0;s:9:\"Practical\";i:1;i:0;}}','Shopping','Products that are &quot;cruelty free&quot;, and/or products to avoid. And the companies that make them.','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,762,83,83,56524,3544,'',1202488557,'Faythalie','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(19,49,32,33,'a:1:{i:49;a:2:{i:0;s:9:\"Practical\";i:1;i:0;}}','Pets','Pet care, Issues regarding AR, Pet Loss','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,2173,240,240,56078,3554,'',1201843492,'TheUnsilenced','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(17,49,34,35,'a:1:{i:49;a:2:{i:0;s:9:\"Practical\";i:1;i:0;}}','To Do List','Ways that you can help our nonhuman friends','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,1028,191,191,56534,372,'',1202494196,'VeganAngel_RI','AA0000',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(18,49,36,37,'a:1:{i:49;a:2:{i:0;s:9:\"Practical\";i:1;i:0;}}','Health','How to be, and the advantages of being, vegetarian, vegan &amp; fruitarian. 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There is no guarantee that your post will be answered if (a.) it already has been answered in the web site\'s FAQ\'s (b.) your post is inflamatory with no point [unless it\'s funny], or (c.) you say something bad about my mother. ','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,1512,52,52,56499,541,'',1202447865,'ChokingMessiah','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(23,57,88,89,'','Share Creativity','Comment on our web site. Create graphics for it, translate articles into another language, edit an outdated web page, point out errors or broken links. All help is appreciated.','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,93,15,15,56293,3544,'',1202166012,'Faythalie','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(24,58,92,93,'a:1:{i:58;a:2:{i:0;s:19:\"Formal Debate Forum\";i:1;i:0;}}','Formal Debate Proposals','The purpose of this forum is to provide a venue for ALF forum members to declare a challenge for a formal debate, and when answered, build and clarify its parameters. 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Debate participants must refrain from posting here until the debate is over.','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,49,2,2,52746,2574,'',1198917646,'christina.W','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(27,59,100,101,'a:1:{i:59;a:2:{i:0;s:18:\"General Discussion\";i:1;i:0;}}','Open','For any topic not covered by the above categories','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,2675,257,257,56436,3544,'',1202399311,'Faythalie','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(32,59,102,103,'a:1:{i:59;a:2:{i:0;s:18:\"General Discussion\";i:1;i:0;}}','Human Freedom','&quot;The same system that exploits animals exploits workers, women, people of color and the environment.&quot;','',7,'','','',0,'','','','',7,'',0,1,0,113,22,22,56496,1245,'',1202444536,'xxNeed2Liberate','',34,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0),(36,59,104,105,'a:1:{i:59;a:2:{i:0;s:18:\"General Discussion\";i:1;i:0;}}','Games','After a hard day of work even an ARA needs to relax. Post online animal freindly games here! 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--
-- Table structure for table `phpbb4_poll_options`
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CREATE TABLE `phpbb4_poll_options` (
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  KEY `poll_opt_id` (`poll_option_id`),
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) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=utf8 COLLATE=utf8_bin;

--
-- Dumping data for table `phpbb4_poll_options`
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INSERT INTO `phpbb4_poll_options` VALUES (1,1780,'Vegan',13),(1,4571,'Strongly Agree',4),(1,2538,'animal rights.',12),(1,4569,'Strongly Agree',5),(1,2720,'agree with it',13),(1,4493,'Everyday',18),(1,2751,'No',13),(1,4482,'yes',0),(1,2752,'Vegan pet foods or raw vegan foods',6),(1,4481,'yes',0),(1,2380,'no',6),(1,2239,'yes',10),(1,4572,'Strongly Agree',1),(1,4577,'Strongly Agree',3),(1,4576,'Strongly Agree',4),(1,2004,'yes',3),(1,2018,'No - their actions result from instincts',4),(1,4575,'Strongly Agree',0),(1,2193,'I like it!',10),(1,4574,'Strongly Agree',1),(1,2207,'Under 20',22),(1,4573,'Strongly Agree',1),(1,2806,'Yes',15),(1,2851,'Satisfied',1),(1,3259,'I feel that animals are just as important as people.',33),(1,3260,'Throw them out',2),(1,4000,'Male',15),(1,3429,'Yes',5),(1,3985,'Yes of course!',3),(1,3434,'Yes!',7),(1,3761,'Absolutely not!',14),(1,3498,'yes- for anybody who wants to',7),(1,3749,'anger (because you\'re an idiot)',16),(1,3258,'I agree, this is the worst.',10),(1,4103,'Glass',8),(1,3105,'Yes',15),(1,4413,'Yes',0),(1,2992,'Yes',11),(1,3004,'yes',7),(1,4282,'yes',10),(1,3001,'YES!',6),(1,4273,'Yes',0),(1,3089,'Neither increase/decrease, but stay stable, at least for a while',3),(1,4230,'Yes',8),(1,4213,'i do',0),(1,4106,'Yes',0),(1,1001,'Yeh cos the eggs are only a waste product and the hens are well looked after',2),(1,2211,'you take the risk and you continue has to take the animals without paying attention to this man before leaving while running !',2),(1,458,'Vegan',9),(1,5333,'Yes',6),(1,1437,'yes',25),(1,5486,'Yes, strict laws for animal welfare and a party for animal welfare.',5),(1,6054,'Yes',7),(1,465,'Vegaterian',4),(1,5871,'1, 2, 3',1),(1,1317,'Yes',5),(1,6044,'Yes',14),(1,6326,'picture 1',7),(1,1143,'Yes',21),(1,3715,'YES',5),(1,1134,'YES',6),(1,6022,'Yes, within a few months',2),(1,6327,'Picture 1',5),(1,1601,'No one',27),(1,6114,'1) yes, I would allow them to bring meat or dairy',4),(1,4578,'Strongly Agree',11),(1,1830,'yes, its absoloutly fabulous!',3),(1,1840,'A little less of this ‘Animal Welfare’ red tape would be nice.',2),(1,6468,'no',4),(1,237,'Absolutely nothing',23),(1,4921,'Yes',31),(1,4602,'Hell yes, I wouldn\'t miss it!',2),(1,22,'no, as they don\'t know how crutial is this choice, we should better impose them vegan diet',17),(1,2742,'Yes',8),(1,6386,'Yes.',8),(1,1660,'yes',3),(1,5091,'Yes',1),(1,4740,'Yes',8),(2,4213,'I dont',23),(2,4106,'No',4),(2,4230,'No',0),(2,3749,'a sense of enlightenment (because you\'ve started to slowly remove your head from your ass)',2),(2,6044,'No',2),(2,6386,'No.',3),(2,4103,'Styrofoam',0),(2,6326,'picture 2',2),(2,4000,'Female',34),(2,6054,'No',4),(2,3761,'Maybe... but only if the profit is returned to conservation programs.',0),(2,6114,'2) yes, I would buy meat &amp;amp; dairy for them',1),(2,3985,'No way!',12),(2,6022,'Probably, within a year or something',5),(2,5091,'No',14),(2,4571,'Agree',0),(2,4921,'No',2),(2,4572,'Agree',0),(2,4573,'Agree',3),(2,4740,'No',3),(2,4574,'Agree',2),(2,4575,'Agree',3),(2,4602,'Absolutely.',2),(2,4576,'Agree',4),(2,4569,'Agree',5),(2,4493,'Occasionally',3),(2,4578,'Agree',4),(2,4273,'No',13),(2,4282,'no',6),(2,6327,'Picture 2',0),(2,6468,'no',8),(2,4413,'No',12),(2,4481,'no',10),(2,5871,'1, 3, 2',11),(2,5486,'Yes, strict laws but not a special party for animal welfare.',0),(2,4482,'no',6),(2,5333,'No',12),(2,4577,'Agree',9),(2,3715,'YES',1),(2,2018,'Yes- animals have cosnciousness but not to the degree that humans do',7),(2,1143,'No',14),(2,1134,'NO',20),(2,2538,'planet itself (ex: global warming, deep ecology issues)',5),(2,1001,'No way man thats explotation no matter how well the hens are looked after',6),(2,2720,'Disagree with it',9),(2,2742,'No',3),(2,2751,'Yes',8),(2,2752,'Non-vegetarian pet foods',9),(2,2239,'no',6),(2,2380,'no',4),(2,1317,'No',29),(2,1437,'no',5),(2,1780,'Ovo and/or Lacto Vegetarian',5),(2,2193,'It\'s ok I guess..',3),(2,1840,'Things are just dandy as they are at the moment.',1),(2,1830,'no, its scum of the earth',5),(2,2211,'you leave while running although you leave animals behind you !',0),(2,1660,'no',3),(2,2207,'20-30',15),(2,2004,'no',1),(2,1601,'Everyone',6),(2,2806,'No',19),(2,2851,'Unsatisfied / Need better strategies.',17),(2,3434,'No!',1),(2,3258,'I don\'t feel that this is the worst.',3),(2,3105,'No',3),(2,237,'Humans soul\'s go on, animals do not',4),(2,3498,'no',0),(2,3429,'Yes, but for reason other than baby milk',3),(2,3089,'Carrying on increasing, dramatically, beating high scores of Aug05',10),(2,22,'yes, I\'m fighting for animal liberty, not to impose them MY OWN choice',17),(2,465,'vegan',8),(2,3001,'NO!',1),(2,458,'Vegaterian',6),(2,3260,'Feed to the dogs (who love eggs)',6),(2,3004,'no',2),(2,2992,'No',5),(2,3259,'animals are not as important as people.',6),(3,22,'I said &amp;quot;I buy you vegan food: if you want to eat a cow, no problem. Go catch it, good luck!&amp;quot;',15),(3,6386,'In some ways, but not others.',3),(3,1840,'I’d like to see a little more ‘Animal Welfare’, so long as it doesn’t affect me too much regarding what I currently do or eat.',4),(3,4578,'No Opinion',1),(3,1780,'Neither',5),(3,4577,'No Opinion',1),(3,4576,'No Opinion',1),(3,237,'Animals and humans soul\'s go on',33),(3,1601,'scientists',3),(3,2211,'you throw yourselves on this man and save time so that your friends can finish work !',3),(3,465,'Im becoming veg',2),(3,6022,'Unlikely, but maybe',0),(3,1001,'Yes but i wouldnt eat them their unhealthy',2),(3,458,'animal eater!',2),(3,6114,'3) no, I would tell them it is vegan food only',7),(3,6327,'picture 3',2),(3,6326,'Picture 3',3),(3,1317,'Possibly',1),(3,5486,'No, neither.',0),(3,5333,'Unsure',2),(3,5871,'2, 1, 3',1),(3,6054,'Unsure',1),(3,2207,'30-40',8),(3,4575,'No Opinion',2),(3,4569,'No Opinion',2),(3,4574,'No Opinion',1),(3,2193,'Nah, stupid quote',1),(3,3260,'Eat them as they are a great source of protein and B12',7),(3,3004,'I would give it a try',4),(3,4573,'No Opinion',1),(3,3985,'It depends on who rolls around.',8),(3,3089,'Decrease, rapidly, like it has done randomly in the past months, year and decades.',1),(3,4572,'No Opinion',3),(3,4493,'Never',1),(3,4571,'No Opinion',3),(3,2538,'both are equal.',17),(3,3259,'animals are more important than people.',23),(3,3498,'only in certain cases',4),(3,3429,'I try!',3),(3,2752,'Raw meat, carnivour animals don\'t cook their meat',2),(3,2751,'I used to eat honey until i went vegan &amp;amp; found out about cruelty to bees',6),(3,3761,'Sure, why not?',0),(3,2018,'Yes-animals possess consciousness equal in all respects to human cosciousness',11),(3,3001,'It\'s up to the Preacher to decide what\'s right',0),(4,6022,'Definately not, no chance',0),(4,4571,'Disagree',3),(4,3089,'I have absolutely no idea, and I don\'t think anyone else does.',6),(4,4569,'Disagree',0),(4,465,'Meat eater!',2),(4,2211,'you risk your life and try to neutralize it with chances to kill it for your safety and that of your friends!',0),(4,6327,'Picture 4',0),(4,4493,'Never (but I\'d love to :P)',1),(4,6054,'Abstain',0),(4,4576,'Disagree',2),(4,6386,'None of the above.  Please explain.',4),(4,1840,'I’m ‘Animal Welfare’ all the way, no time for this ‘Animal Rights’ nonsense.',0),(4,2207,'40-50',3),(4,4577,'Disagree',2),(4,3761,'I have no opinion on this subject',0),(4,4574,'Disagree',6),(4,4578,'Disagree',0),(4,6114,'4) I just wouldn\'t have anyone to my home that ate meat or dairy',2),(4,4573,'Disagree',2),(4,1601,'students',2),(4,4572,'Disagree',1),(4,237,'I don\'t know/I think it is more complicated',19),(4,5871,'2, 3, 1',1),(4,4575,'Disagree',6),(5,4569,'Strongly Disagree',0),(5,4576,'Strongly Disagree',1),(5,1840,'I Endorse ‘Animal Welfare’ with animals rights in mind.',8),(5,4577,'Strongly Disagree',0),(5,4574,'Strongly Disagree',2),(5,4578,'Strongly Disagree',1),(5,4573,'Strongly Disagree',5),(5,4572,'Strongly Disagree',7),(5,6327,'picture 5',2),(5,4575,'Strongly Disagree',1),(5,4571,'Strongly Disagree',2),(5,5871,'3, 1, 2',1),(5,2207,'50-60',4),(6,6327,'picture 6',0),(6,1840,'I’m ‘Animal Rights’ all the way, no time for compromising that with ‘Animal Welfare’ policy.',26),(6,5871,'3, 2, 1',2),(7,6327,'picture 7',5);
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INSERT INTO `phpbb4_posts` VALUES (58,22,15,7,0,'66.98.130.243',1094824916,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Vegan pets','what do you think about that?\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.vegancats.com/ObligateCarnivore.html\">http://www.vegancats.com/ObligateCarnivore.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nThanks to good, my cat naturally choose the vegan diet. But I gave her the choice. (i\'m so proud of her <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> )','',0,'','6wvzzgtl',1,0,'',7,0,0),(78,22,15,16,0,'69.168.181.227',1094908464,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My dog gets kidney stones, and the veterinarian put her on a special new canned food... I dunno if it\'s vegan or not, yet. I have to find out, when I go back up there.\n\nBut I think.. if they are truly omnivorous, and can survive without meat, you should give them vegan food. Because.... it\'s a tough decision, forcing someone to live vegan.. but, they don\'t understand that they\'re eating corpses, so while they are domesticated, and in our house, I think we should make that decision for them.  But if they need meat, to survive .. nothing to be done about it. They get meat, I suppose.\n\nAlthough... I saw a terrible thing:\n\nMy friend has a snake, and he feedsn them little white mice? Please, oh PLEASE - is there another type of vegan food for snakes? he said there isn\'t.. but I doubt he looked.  It was horrible watching two mice fall into a cage, one running around, one hiding in the corner - then the snakes head whipped forward, biting into one of the mice. -shudder-, and then the other mouse went to help/investigate his friend, and pulled on the legs., while the snake was devouring it. I thought it very heroic.\n\nAnd of course, it didn\'t work, and the snake killed the other mouse.\n\n\nSo, if there is a vegan way to feed a snake, please post it, so I can stop that nastines in my friends home.\n\n\n\nJosh','',0,'','2y2cbjwg',1,0,'',16,0,0),(87,22,15,9,0,'64.173.8.130',1094953634,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Cats and a vegan diet','Cats need a vitamin called taurine which is only in meat unless you go buy a taurine supplement. If the cat is deprived of taurine too long they will become blind. Make sure all home made diets are nutritionally balanced with the daily requirements needed by the animal you are feeding\n\n.','',0,'','319mcavo',1,0,'',9,0,0),(96,22,15,9,0,'64.173.8.130',1094965356,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','snake diet','rodent and fish are the only food I know of that snakes will eat, but if you find something else let me know. Thanks!!!','',0,'','2mckds7j',1,0,'',9,0,0),(182,42,20,19,0,'152.163.101.8',1095516633,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','RESCUE GROUPS (pre-screend)','[/b] This is a list of pre-screened animal rescue org\'s.  Adopt a companion, volunteer, etc.  They ALWAYS need help.  Les','',0,'','321xmx2k',1,0,'',19,0,0),(183,42,20,19,0,'152.163.100.198',1095516669,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[b]Tessa\'s Shadow Rescue, Tampa Bay Area, Florida\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://whitneysworld.com/tessas_shadow_rescue.html\">http://whitneysworld.com/tessas_shadow_rescue.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nThey have a great application!','',0,'','1as0t256',1,0,'',19,0,0),(184,42,20,19,0,'152.163.101.10',1095516895,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','New Beginnings Pet Rescue     \n\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.newbeginningspetrescue.com\">www.newbeginningspetrescue.com</a><!-- w -->  \n\nP.O. Box 138 \nBeachwood, NJ 08722    \n\nMission Statement:\n\nNew Beginnings Pet Rescue is an all -volunteer, \nall- breed rescue organization committed to saving and improving as many lives as possible for animals taken from  kill shelters.\n\nWe are a group of dedicated volunteers whose goal it is to place companion animals in safe, family settings.\n\nWe are a hands-on, non-profit charity that is devoted to providing a safe haven for at-risk companion animals.\n\nRescuing, fostering and placing homeless companion animals in appropriate, loving forever homes.\n\nTransporting or coordinating transports for companion animals from high-kill shelters to safety.\n\nPromote spaying and neutering, rescuing and adoption as opposed to the purchase and breeding of companion\nanimals from puppy stores and backyard breeders.\n\nPlace shelter animals in foster homes to begin socialization, housebreaking and training to increase adoptability.','',0,'','2u4zkanv',1,0,'',19,0,0),(185,42,20,19,0,'152.163.100.6',1095517065,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','SECOND CHANCE RESCUE\nNEW SMYRNA BEACH, FL\n\nHi~ We are Second Chance Animal Rescue, Inc.\nWe are a 501(C)3 Non Profit Organization\nMission Statement:  To take in abandoned, abused, neglected and unwanted dogs of any breed or breed mix, provide any and all medical care needed, provide any rehabilitation needed and place them into loving forever homes.  We are absolutely a No Kill Rescue.  \nSpay/Neuter:  All adopted animals will be altered before adoption unless health or age prohibits and then the contract states that the adoptor has 30 days from date animal is able to be altered to get this done and send proof to SCR.  We do verify all spay/neutering that is done after adoption.  Contract is very clear on this subject. \n\n\nsecondchanceresq.petfinder.org','',0,'','7ua0ab80',1,0,'',19,0,0),(186,42,20,19,0,'152.163.101.6',1095517271,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','2 By 2 Animal Rescue\nFax 1-801-757-4473\n233 Mitchell Road\nEighty Four Pa 15330\n\n\nTo provide shelter and care to animals that have been lost, abused, abandoned or are scheduled to be euthanized by animal shelters.\n\nTo find temporary and permanent homes for animals that have been lost, abused, abandoned or are scheduled to be euthanized by animal shelters.\n\nTo provide shelter and care and a temporary or permanent home for animals that cannot be accepted by traditional animal shelters or that would not adapt well to such a shelter.\n\nTo assist animal owners who can no longer care for their animals in finding permanent homes or foster care for those animals.\n\nTo provide outreach to the public by making known the plight of lost, abused, abandoned or unwanted animals and attempting to place such animals in permanent homes.\n\nOH YES!  They spay/neuter as well\")','',0,'','3e3lp9xf',1,0,'',19,0,0),(187,42,20,19,0,'152.163.101.6',1095517679,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Nancy Brown\nFull Moon Farm, Inc.\nBlack Mountain, NC\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.fullmoonfarm.org\">http://www.fullmoonfarm.org</a><!-- m -->\n\nWolf and Hybrid Rescue <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nFull Moon Farm, Inc. was established to provide a safe haven for abused and refused wolf dogs, who through no fault of their own find themselves in rescue.\n\nOur mission is threefold:\n\nFull Moon Farm has created a sanctuary in response to the lack of existing facilities to provide refuge for wolf dogs and captive bred wolves that have been abused, abandoned, displaced, impounded, neglected or have become surplus.\n\nThe organization also works in the nationwide network for animals in crisis; either needing evaluation, temporary housing, transport or rehabilitation.\n\nIn addition, Full Moon Farm’s mission is to educate the public in the plight of wolves and wolfdogs.  Wolves in the wild:  endangerment by encroachment of humans and misunderstanding of the behavior of the wild wolf.  Wolfdogs and captive bred wolves:  breeding by uneducated, non-professional breeders, selling wofdogs to uneducated purchasers, behaviors and characteristics of the breed, proper containment of privately owned animals and assistance to owners in crisis.','',0,'','3l57dpu9',1,0,'',19,0,0),(188,42,20,19,0,'152.163.100.6',1095518000,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Everglades Golden Retriever Rescue \n\nEverglades Golden Retriever Rescue, Inc. in Florida, is an all volunteer, non-profit organization, dedicated to providing veterinary care, comprehensive evaluation and adoptive homes for Golden Retrievers who are abandoned, mistreated, neglected or left at Animal Control facilities throughout Southern Florida; specifically the counties of Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade, Monroe, Lee and Collier.  Rescue services are also provided to Goldens in acute need of placement due to compelling family circumstances.  EGRR also provides education to the community regarding ethical and responsible breeding practices as well as the care of the purebred Golden Retriever. \n\nEGRR.ORG','',0,'','19h16gpf',1,0,'',19,0,0),(189,42,20,19,0,'152.163.100.200',1095518513,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Mixed Up Mutts\n\nLaPorte, In\n\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.mixedupmutts.org\">www.mixedupmutts.org</a><!-- w -->\n\n\"Doing good things for animals\"  *They aren\'t lying either.*  \n\nMixed breed, pure breed, k9, cat, and small animal rescue.  Mixed Up Mutts makes a difference in unwanted, neglected, abused, and etc. animals lives by providing full health care, spay/neuter, a loving home environment, and reintroducing animals into the community in a positive fashion.  This is a 501c3 not for profit.','',0,'','37u7oo61',1,0,'',19,0,0),(257,68,17,19,0,'152.163.100.6',1095650251,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Free SPAY/NEUTER for INDIANA cats','[b:1ho8rhs7]FREE BARN CAT SPAY/NEUTER OFFERED\n \nThe North Central Indiana Animal Rescue is offering free spay/neuter of \nferal, barn, garage, shed and any other outdoor cats who will be \nreleased back outside to live outdoors full time.   The surgery is done in \ntheir clinic in North Americus, Indiana, northeast of Lafayette, Indiana.  \nThey will accept cats from any county in Indiana or from areas of \nIllinois near Indiana!  The only qualification is that the person bringing \nthe cats in has to take the cats back and continue to provide food and \nshelter for the cats. They will do both spays and neuters of cats only.  \nThe cats can be feral or friendly, as long as they will be put back \noutside. Feral cats should be in safe traps; friendly cats should be in \ncarriers or cages. There is no limit on the number of cats brought in!  \nCall 765-447-3269 or 765-447-3269 for an appointment. They also offer \nreduced cost spay/neuter and shots for indoor cats and indoor/outdoor \ncats.  Call the above numbers for information. \n\n \nLocally, Neuter Scooter,  a mobile spay/neuter clinic that travels \nIndiana and Ohio and offers affordable spay/neuter of cats only, has \nclinics through out Indiana. The cost for feral cats in safe traps is $20    \n(Feral cats are cats that cannot be handled and must be trapped and \nbrought in safe traps.)  The cost for friendly pet cats in carriers (and \nfor friendly, handleable barn and outdoor cats)  is $40 if prepaid on \nline in advance or $50 the day of the clinic.  All the cats are given \nFREE four way combo shots (distemper) and rabies shots after surgery.  \nOther services such as tests and parasite treatments, are available.  For \nmore info or the schedule, go to <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.neuterscooter.com\">www.neuterscooter.com</a><!-- w -->. \n \nBoth clinics will spay/neuter kittens six WEEKS and older IF they are \nhealthy and at least two pounds in weight. Both clinics will abort \nlitters of kittens at no extra charge; both clinics will spay cats with \npyometra, as well as nursing and lactating cats (if kittens nursing are 4 \nweeks or older) at no extra charge; both clinics will neuter male \ncrytorchids/monorchids (one or both testicles not descended) at no extra \ncharge. \n \nThe FACE clinic in Indianapolis and Indy Ferals in Indianapolis also \noffers reduced cost spay/neuter of both friendly and feral cats, indoor \nand outdoor cats. \n[/b:1ho8rhs7]','',0,'QA==','1ho8rhs7',1,0,'',19,0,0),(258,69,14,19,0,'152.163.100.6',1095652333,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Pamela Anderson and more','[b:2o1eit7m]Pamela Anderson frequently speaks out on behalf of animals!  So does Alicia Silverstone, Bob Barker, Linda Blair, and so many more.  It is very awesome when someone in thier position uses it to help the voiceless[/b:2o1eit7m]','',0,'QA==','2o1eit7m',1,0,'',19,0,0),(262,68,17,16,0,'198.234.224.6',1095698096,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That\'s awesome; will spread the word.','',0,'QA==','agguictv',1,0,'',16,0,0),(264,69,14,16,0,'198.234.224.6',1095698206,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeah, using petatv.com you can see Pamela Anderson speaking out, and claiming, \"I will take off my clothes for PETA anytime.\"','',0,'QA==','3glidjai',1,0,'',16,0,0),(265,68,17,19,0,'64.12.116.213',1095699590,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[b:tswmjad5]this is also for Ohio and Ill, you just have to be able to make the drive.  They are accepting a colony of ferals from me, 12 cats total.[/b:tswmjad5]','',0,'QA==','tswmjad5',1,0,'',19,0,0),(352,102,18,19,0,'64.12.116.131',1097018467,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','VEGAN HALLOWEEN CANDY','From PETA\n\n[b:3o0o8jkv]\"Witch\" Treats Are Fit for a-Gobblin’?\nFear not, Elvira has managed to scare up a virtual cornucopia of candy to offer the hungry hordes of ghouls and ghosts. Thanks to the following variety of gelatin-free, vegan, frightfully good goodies, you can avoid playing a nasty trick on kids and cows this Halloween.\n\nAirheads taffy\nAtkins peanut butter bars\nBlow Pops\nCharms lollipops\nChick-o-Sticks\nCracker Jack\nCry Babies\nDem Bones\nDots\nDum-Dums\nFireballs\nGoldenberg’s Peanut Chews\nHot Tamales\nHubba Bubba bubblegum\nJolly Ranchers (lollipops and hard candy)\nJujubees\nJujyfruits\nLemonheads\nMambas\nMary Janes (regular and peanut butter kisses)\nMike and Ike\n Now and Later\nPez\nRing Pop lollipops\nSmarties\nSour Patch Kids\nStarburst (jelly beans and hard candy)\nSuper Bubble\nSwedish Fish\nSweet Tarts\nTropical Source mini chocolate bags\nTwizzlers\nZotz\n[/b:3o0o8jkv]','',0,'QA==','3o0o8jkv',1,0,'',19,0,0),(380,102,18,55,0,'24.20.123.193',1097555812,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Lets not forget abba-zabbas.','',0,'QA==','x9twcglu',1,0,'',55,0,0),(493,22,15,61,0,'81.153.128.182',1098355606,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My dog eats furniture!!!!! Beagles are known as a chewing dog and she lives upto her name! All the garden furniture has about half a foot missing from the legs! I think she must have been a Termite in her past life  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'QA==','3s5svou6',1,0,'',61,0,0),(592,22,15,69,0,'69.199.9.195',1100450451,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','lol! eating all the legs of chairs!\n\nAs for vegetarian diet for dogs..I know there are some brands.\n\nI have a different philosophy on that one..Thier teeth are made to eat meet-they are carnivores.I belive I would have to suppliment my animals.Something to look into and think about.\n\nLive mice..no way!! Gross and terrible..yuck1I am sure if you call a pet store and ask,what are the options to live mice-they should have one.Call and ask.That snake,wont die if he ask to eat a kibble type product.I am sure they make one.','',0,'QA==','r1j3u975',1,0,'',69,0,0),(595,22,15,2,0,'69.175.13.29',1100456205,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Dogs and diet','The fact that dogs have teeth for killing is no more to the point than the fact that men have penis\'s--what they have does not mandate usage. In the wild, dogs have no easy way to get protein except by killing. That was true of humans, also.\n   Evolution is simply not relevant to a debate on \"Can dogs be as healthy on a vegan diet as on a meat diet.\" Answer: Yes. It has been verified. Thousands of dogs lead perfectly healthy lives on a vegan and/or vegetarian diet.\n   The FAQS on this web site give more details. Using the search engine may also give more helpful information.','',0,'QA==','3okh539a',1,0,'',2,0,0),(662,69,14,84,0,'68.75.57.59',1101692615,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I ADORE Pam!  LOVE HER!  \n\n*I\'m reading her book right now, \"Star\".  It\'s good*','',0,'QA==','1efu9v44',1,0,'',84,0,0),(982,237,22,108,0,'67.40.12.71',1105335027,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Animal souls','I did not know wear to post this.  Does anyone believe in life after death? If yes, what do you believe happens to these animals who have lived very sad lives?  \n\nDoes anyone believe humans are rewarded by fairly good lives and after death \"nirvana\"  while animals have suffering in life and nothing after death?\n\nOr is there nothing after death for anyone or anything?\nOr are you in a holodeck? (jk)\n\n???','',0,'QA==','3eh73a9l',1,0,'',108,0,0),(1023,243,12,77,0,'192.153.23.100',1105568603,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','28,000 wild horses to be executed by Bush','28,000 wild horses to be executed by Bush\n\nCritics say slaughter is payback for BLM grazing ranchers who supported \npresident\'s reelection bid\n\nby Greg Szymanski\n\nOur Texas gun-slinging President now has his sights set on the symbol of \nthe great American West, the wild mustang.\n\nIn a matter of days, he\'s set to pull the trigger and sign a little \nknown bill, opening the slaughter house gates on 28,000 wild horses \ngrazing on Bureau of Land Management (BLM) property in California and \nother western states.\n\nAnimal rights critics said the \"trigger-happy\" President is expected to \nturn his back on the \"cowboy\'s best friend\" despite an 11th hour plea to \nstop the carnage.\n\nThe amendment to kill the horses slipped into an obscure federal \nappropriations bill sponsored by Senator Conrad Burns (R-Montana), a \nfriend to ranchers seeking more grazing land for cattle now used by wild \nhorses.\n\nCritics said the \"hidden move\" comes as pay back to meat packers as \nwell, both groups making campaign contributions to President Bush and \nSen. Burns.\n\nSen. Burns quietly added the amendment in an unrelated spending bill in \nhopes of gaining little attention from critical animal rights activists. \nThe law removes all protection for wild horses over the age of 10 or \nthat have failed to be adopted after three attempts.\n\nCritics said the law will also lead younger horses to slaughter and is \ndesigned to wipe-out the entire wild horse herd, paving the way for open \ngrazing for land-hungry cattle ranchers who view the horses as a \nnuisance.\n\n\"No one knew about this until the last minute. It was kept a secret for \nobvious reasons,\" said Jerry Finch, head of the Habitat for Horses, a \nnonprofit Texas horse rescue group. Don\'t turn your back on this \nPresident for one minute. He\'s now even going to shoot the horses in the \nback. This amendment means death by slaughter for tens of thousands of \nhorses and a lot of profit for those who kill and transport the meat \noverseas.\n\n\"It\'s a sad reflection on our government process to know that one man \ncan silently, by himself, order the death of so many horses.\"\n\nUnder the amendment, older horses, burros and those younger horses \ndeemed not able to be adopted will be sold at auction then killed. The \nlaw overrides the longstanding 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro \nAct, which offered protection against this type of wholesale slaughter.\n\nIt clears the way for horses to be slaughtered at one of three United \nStates equine slaughterhouses, two located in Texas. American horse meat \nis then sold to France, Italy, Belgium and Japan, where it is viewed as \na delicacy.\n\nCelia Bodington, a spokesman for the BLM, said the agency did not \nactively support the hidden legislation, but will support its \nramifications if passed into law.\n\nAnimal rights groups across the board have voiced last minute opposition \nto the potential slaughter, including the Society for Animal Protective \nLegislation, the Animal Horse Defense Fund and the Human Rights Society.\n\n\"This provision was kept secret since it would never see the light of \nday otherwise,\" said Chris Hyde, an analyst for the Animal Protective \nLegislative group, referring to the fact that many legislators were \ncompletely unaware of its inclusion in the otherwise unrelated federal \nspending bill.\n\nTrina Bellak of the American Horse Defense Fund said this sets the stage \nfor a major battle with the environmentally unfriendly Bush \nAdministration and Republican Congress.\n\n\"This is abominable, outrageous, disingenuous and unethical,\" said \nBellak.\n\nSen. Burns, a rancher himself, denied allegations he is sponsoring the \nbill to help his rancher friends gain needed grazing land or to line the \npockets of the meat packing industry.\n\n\"The amendment focuses on the proper management of horses and burros on \npublic land,\" said Sen. Burns in defense of the bill\'s passage, adding \nhorses are now living in poor conditions.\n\nCritics said Sen. Burns statements should be categorically dismissed \nsince his idea of proper horse management is to \"kill them all off.\"\n\nDespite mounting criticism, President Bush is expected to sign the \namendment since he has failed to veto one piece of legislation during \nhis first term and critics believe he will not suddenly change that \npattern now.','',0,'QA==','583ouudb',1,0,'',77,0,0),(1032,243,12,84,0,'68.77.45.74',1105574262,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','This makes me sick!  Absolutely sick!','',0,'QA==','10xkuc69',1,0,'',84,0,0),(1072,254,14,115,0,'152.163.100.6',1106194882,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Vegan Hardcore','Purification- sXe/vegan hardcore band from Rome; definitely the second-coming of Earth Crisis. Check \'em out:\n\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.straightedge.it\">www.straightedge.it</a><!-- w -->','',0,'QA==','3s886izu',1,0,'',115,0,0),(1079,254,14,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1106274096,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','nice web site','the graphics are worth the visit.','',0,'QA==','2b7i58lu',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1087,237,22,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1106576808,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','history','The \"soul\" is a human fairy tale. While our understanding of the universe and life is undoubtedly incomplete and perhaps beyond our grasp, we should get no credit for making up stories and not being able to show our work.','',0,'QA==','3p3lyu8t',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1092,254,14,100,0,'24.1.141.164',1106596464,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','spare us the straight edge','',0,'QA==','2pmgq87a',1,0,'',100,0,0),(1093,254,14,19,0,'205.188.116.204',1106598555,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[b:3gi6w858]why?  (the spare us the straight edge)[/b:3gi6w858]','',0,'QA==','3gi6w858',1,0,'',19,0,0),(1096,237,22,115,0,'205.188.116.133',1106604381,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I agree with AnnB. The \"soul\" is such a primitive concept; I can\'t believe so many people are so sure that it exists. It\'s just ridiculous.','',0,'QA==','2s1bttlu',1,0,'',115,0,0),(1099,254,14,100,0,'129.119.251.84',1106617023,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','sorry i have a bit of a contemp for straight edge, it just isent my thing and i run into alot of tension when people try and tell me being vegan is the same as being X. i guess there is nothing wrong with that lifestyle it\'s just me and the straight edge kids dont see eye to eye. I will give them this Minor Threat is one badass band.','',0,'QA==','16nq1xt4',1,0,'',100,0,0),(1100,237,22,100,0,'129.119.251.84',1106619594,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','what do you mean the soul is such a primitive concept? Can you not feel something bigger something around you some mystery the soul is symbolic it is not ment to be interpreted as a pysical object.','',0,'QA==','7r7wshi9',1,0,'',100,0,0),(1101,237,22,51,0,'69.92.189.66',1106624812,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Different cultures and religions view this question...differently.  \n\nCertainly the American indians believed animals had a soul, or spirit.  \n\nThe ancient Egytians believed in the afterlife to such a degree that they spent their entire mortal life preparing for it.\n\nThe vast majority of religions worldwide believe in a human spirit or soul.  Even Pagans believe.  Many of those same groups believe animals have spirits.\n\nAtheists are about the only group that outright deny the existance of spirits, while agnostics honestly admit that we cannot know the truth until after death.\n\nAs far as it being a Primitive concept?  I just pass that off as an insensitive slam and filter it out.','',0,'QA==','4zob8c2k',1,0,'',51,0,0),(1102,237,22,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1106715517,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','filling the void','Man has, since primitive times, tried to answer all questions about life, including questions beyond his understanding. This makes the concept of a soul a primitive concept. Nothing insensitive about that. It\'s just a definition.\n\nThe fact that different primitive cultures guessed at the answers differently means someone guessed wrong.\n\nAtheists (of which I am one) don\'t deny that there are tremendous unknown forces in the universe. They just don\'t like to have someone with no more knowledge than themselves give the forces a name and ask for donations. If someone defines god or spirits in general terms, rather than \"looks like a man\" or \"floats like a sheet\", atheists are on board.\n\nAtheists don\'t deny the existence of these voids in human understanding, or that there may be answers. They just don\'t accept someone else\'s answers. It\'s too important a topic to stop thinking about, even if the answers aren\'t out there.\n\nWhen atheists say \"There is no God\" they are referring only to a God that someone else (eg: Christians) has chosen to narrowly define. \n\nThey are not referring to the existence of forces greater than themselves.\n\nIt is a favorite logical fallacy of proponents for THEIR version of God to say that HE must exist because it\'s so obvious that there are greater forces than man in the universe. This is a giant leap, for which there is no logical bridge.\n\nFor more discussion of what atheists believe, and other interesting, high-quality debates, please visit <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php\">http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php</a><!-- m -->\n\nUnfortunately, this is where one of our moderators, Dogmatic Trip, went to debate, and he was doing quite well, when he disappeared into the nethers of cyberspace.','',0,'QA==','sgysf59y',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1110,237,22,51,0,'69.92.189.66',1106782294,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree that from a definitive perspective, it\'s a primitive concept, as you rightly defined.  Put into the context it was used by the OP is demeaning and intolerant......imho.','',0,'QA==','1x3h01wf',1,0,'',51,0,0),(1112,254,14,55,0,'24.20.123.193',1106805407,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have heard them befor. great band. I have been planning to get a 7\" or somthing for a while now.','',0,'QA==','2o1ifmrt',1,0,'',55,0,0),(1113,237,22,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1106836590,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','word choice','I would say that the poster was \"skeptical\", which is a good thing, and that anyone who considers it demeaning to have their beliefs challenged probably has other issues, including thin skin and lack of conviction.\n\nMany of us on this board believe animals should be given more moral consideration than they are currently afforded. That belief is routinely challenged by skeptics. Hopefully our responses are deeper and more compelling than to simply respond that our detractors comments are intolerant and demeaning.\n\nHave we beat this dead horse enough?\n\nI think we have. But language is a barrier to basic understanding. Many folks still write to us asking how \"animal rights activists\" can really believe that animals deserve all the same rights as humans. Sometimes they site examples of how this can\'t ever happen such as \"humans sue each other in court and rats can\'t serve on juries, so they can\'t have a trial by their peers,\" etc. When we respond that this isn\'t the goal, they respond that it is a \"slippery slope\". But I digress. Sigh.','',0,'QA==','34dzz8rd',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1115,237,22,12,0,'64.12.116.203',1107141736,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','i believe that there is something greater than just life. i on one hand have been clinically dead for 27minutes, and it changed my life. i believe animals also have souls. when i went to a conformation class a long time ago,someone asked the teacher if animals go to heaven and the teacher said that animals dont have souls. i got into a big arguement with him over that.','',0,'QA==','22imfw3e',1,0,'',12,0,0),(1116,237,22,19,0,'152.163.100.203',1107155855,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','ot/sarah','[b:1jn15arv]Sarah, I know this is off topic but do you remember anything while you were \'away\'? Les[/b:1jn15arv]','',0,'QA==','1jn15arv',1,0,'',19,0,0),(1127,237,22,115,0,'152.163.100.6',1107299393,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;RETAKEFREEDOM&quot;:1m7hjdtw]what do you mean the soul is such a primitive concept? Can you not feel something bigger something around you some mystery the soul is symbolic it is not ment to be interpreted as a pysical object.[/quote:1m7hjdtw]\n\nWhat I was trying to say was that believing in the \"soul\" is an antiquated way of understanding human conduct and human experiences. It reminds me of when cavemen threw rocks at the moon.','',0,'gA==','1m7hjdtw',1,0,'',115,0,0),(1129,237,22,51,0,'69.92.189.66',1107311803,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','So, now I\'m a caveman....great.\n\nI also believe in Angels, God and the Devil.  Does that make me a Cro Magnum, or more of an Austrilopithicus?','',0,'gA==','15q44szh',1,0,'',51,0,0),(1131,237,22,19,0,'205.188.116.204',1107313709,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','lol, cheese I would say you are a homo habilis...kidding.\n\nI tihnk everyone is entitled to their own beleifs and values as far as god or no god goes.  Some people feel the need to have a god in their life and some don\'t.  Life goes on.\n\nLes','',0,'gA==','2cngp6nk',1,0,'',19,0,0),(1132,237,22,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1107314576,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Please, don\'t put us on the spot ....','either choice works for me.\n\nPersonally, I can\'t imagine we know everything about the world, ourselves, and the universe. Filling in the unknowns with assuredness simply doesn\'t leave room to grow or think.\n\nBut, self brainwashing, if if makes one peaceful and doesn\'t hurt anyone else, is not a bad thing.','',0,'gA==','3obz3yau',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1137,237,22,115,0,'152.163.100.204',1107399526,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Cheeseburger_in_Paradise&quot;:r2g0t7es]So, now I\'m a caveman....great.\n\nI also believe in Angels, God and the Devil.  Does that make me a Cro Magnum, or more of an Austrilopithicus?[/quote:r2g0t7es]\n\nSettle down. I wasn\'t referring to you personally or anyone else on the board for that matter. It was only intended to be a light-hearted comment that, apparently, got blown out of proportion. So we can all rest easy now....','',0,'gA==','r2g0t7es',1,0,'',115,0,0),(1139,237,22,120,0,'213.249.184.94',1107454171,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I firmly don\'t believe in God, and I\'m an atheist. But I do believe in ghosts, as I\'ve seen one so therefore I know they exist... which leads me to wonder whether or not there\'s an afterlife. I don\'t THINK there is one.. but if there was, how could I think this without connecting it to a God I don\'t believe in? Anyway, it\'s confusing.\n\nI don\'t think theres an afterlife for anyone, but lately I\'ve been hoping that I could convince myself there\'s an afterlife for animals. I don\'t think humans deserve to go there, but animals are without exception innocent. I can\'t bear the thought of what animals go through on this earth and then their soul just ends. The thought of an animal being vaginally electrocuted for it\'s fur and then it\'s life just ending forever is too much to bear sometimes, so I\'m starting to kind of imagine a heaven for animals, at least to bring comfort anyway. Some kind of place where they live in eternal peace with each other and have everything they could wish.. just an imaginary utopia I have, because it\'s so painful to imagine they go through what they do for nothing (well, for a bit of food at the end). Anyway, that\'s my opinion, I hope someone understands it slightly.','',0,'gA==','51botsz3',1,0,'',120,0,0),(1140,237,22,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1107458433,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','We\'re waaaay off topic here, but','Seeing something doesn\'t mean that your interpretation of that something is \"reality\". I see little people inside a box in my living room. It doesn\'t mean that they exist.','',0,'gA==','22tydkll',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1145,237,22,115,0,'205.188.116.198',1107485833,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ve always found it odd that people usually believe in an afterlife because they want to feel that all the creatures that have suffered injustice in this life will somehow be compensated by dwelling in a utopia after they die. As an atheist, I can\'t think of anything more comforting than the bliss of eternal nothingness.','',0,'gA==','3uj2i4je',1,0,'',115,0,0),(1146,237,22,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1107526757,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Need for consolation','I find it most comforting to look into the past, and see our progress, both as humans and as animal rights activists (rather than numb myself by imagining all is going to be fair in an afterlife).\n\n“The world’s still cruel; that’s understood. / But once was worse. So far so good.â€','',0,'gA==','ua85kam8',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1160,237,22,115,0,'64.12.116.199',1107835160,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That\'s a good way to look at it.','',0,'gA==','12n2ma1u',1,0,'',115,0,0),(1406,352,1,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1114531510,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','animalliberationfront mirror sites','When the site is down, the discusion forum and guestbook book still operate (they are contracted out).\r\n   There is a mirror ALF site that is updated aproximately weekly.\r\n   Here are the direct links (you know the first one, unless you stumbled upon it):\r\n   discussion --  <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalrightsdiscussion.com/phpBB2/index.php\">http://animalrightsdiscussion.com/phpBB2/index.php</a><!-- m -->\r\n\r\n    guestbook -- <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=havenbooksint&amp;a=view&amp;i=1001&amp;r=\">http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/contro ... &amp;i=1001&amp;r=</a><!-- m -->\r\n\r\n   ALF mirror -- <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalrightsmilitia.com\">http://www.animalrightsmilitia.com</a><!-- m -->\r\nand a few files are still at <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalliberationfront.us\">http://animalliberationfront.us</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','e8tywlqt',1,1177713528,'',2,4,0),(1410,243,12,175,0,'216.196.161.100',1114562651,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Extremely misleading title to your post.\n\n[quote:1fe6kicg]Senator Conrad Burns, R-Mont., chairman of the appropriations subcommittee that funds the BLM placed the measure into the bill after consulting with Senators Byron Dorgan, D-ND and Harry Reid, D-NV.  Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson also voted in favor of this. [/quote:1fe6kicg]\n\nThis one looks like a bipartisan bill that Bush has nothing to do with.  It was also slipped into an omnibus package so that it will never be held up for this reason alone.\n\nBush owns horses <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.wildhorsefoundation.org/congress.htm\">http://www.wildhorsefoundation.org/congress.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','1fe6kicg',1,0,'',175,0,0),(1429,352,1,111,0,'193.77.158.202',1114675965,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Government(s) should realize, that calling us terrorists is stupid and against national interests. Calling us terrorists is actually giving the word terrorism a positive aspect. Real terrorism benefits from such misuse of the word.','',0,'gA==','2bq3621r',1,0,'',111,0,0),(1430,352,1,19,0,'24.12.84.72',1114678194,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I agree FreeQ.  That\'s a good perspective.\n\nAround here (yes I do live in the stix) teenage vandalisim extends from tagging and mail box baseball to breaking into buildings and thrashing them and playing with explosives.  Even I have thrown a few molotov cocktails in my younger days (we always threw them at hay bales in the middle of a deserted road).  Here that is acceptable. You get punished depending on how much cash your parents have if you get caght or if the cop feels like dealing with you.  The big city I was born and mostly raised in (one of the biggest in the world) probably would not have stood for this but the more I learn about rural areas the more I learn that this is acceptable.  Is that terrorisim?  I don\'t think so.','',0,'gA==','36k0nid2',1,0,'',19,0,0),(1431,352,1,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1114694758,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','definition of the ALF','People, especially the media, continue to try to define the ALF by the actions taken by people who call themselves ALF. This is as nonsensical as defining Christians by the people who bomb abortion clinics because their \"credo\" is anti-abortion.\n\nThe term \"the Animal Liberation Front\" was coined by Ronnie Lee. The credo defining what a \"member\" was, was established. It was proclaimed that there would be no leaders. This credo has been unmodified and widespread for more than 20 years. Not even Ronnie Lee can change the definition now.\n\nSince the credo states that no harm shall come to any sentient being, setting fires or bombs don\'t make any sense. People, birds, rats, and squirrels could get hurt. We\'ve stated that repeatedly.\n\nWhere is the fault in this logic?\n\nSome illegal acts are condoned. Breaking and entering to get an animal out of an abused situation is an example.\n\nThis may fit some people\'s definition of \"terrorism\". Some people debate that. They are only words. It is what it is, and using one word to catalog all the actions is just plain lazy.','',0,'gA==','1t60swzc',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1445,352,1,180,0,'129.137.169.110',1115132354,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','isn\'t this the ALF, or am i on some pansy site on accident? what we do IS firebomb buildings, liberate animals, and wreak havoc on the institutions which cause abuse to animals. \n\ni don\'t think anyone is here to argue about how what we do is legal, because it\'s not. not in the american sense. there is a higher law, and that is our law, and it sanctifies life and not profit. love the higher law. \n\nalso, i just wanted to introduce myself  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> .','',0,'gA==','20wbl8ht',1,0,'',180,0,0),(1446,352,1,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1115136959,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','firebombing','There are more militant animal rights groups than the ALF, groups who don\'t care about human life. We understand those who say that animal rights is a war, and that there will be casualties.\n\nBut the ALF credo has never changed. It prohibits risking lives. You call it pansy, but since the ALF has no leaders (we\'re not a cult) and no central structure, nobody has the authority to change the definition (including the webmasters of this site) to suit an agenda.\n\nFirebombing, per se, is not against the credo. But risking any sentient life is against the credo. If someone blows up a building, they damn well better know what mice and birds are living in the rafters, or they are killing animals, maybe dozens of them. That is NOT acceptable and we\'ll publically and categorically be against such actions.\n\nWe STRONGLY recommend that the ramifications of any proposed ALF action be analyzed and considered in detail.','',0,'gA==','31g5h3xo',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1450,243,12,77,0,'192.153.23.100',1115241211,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Oh dear. Does he. Well, you know, there are plenty of people who owned children until they drown them or shot them or did away with them in some other manner. In fact, it happened here just recently... A woman shot her two children...\n\nAnd I really don\'t see how it\'s so misleading. This whole deal is of his creation, so far as I\'ve seen.','',0,'gA==','2xdb0zn2',1,0,'',77,0,0),(1452,243,12,51,0,'24.119.44.163',1115255058,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;licrow&quot;:31iwuhmy]\n\nAnd I really don\'t see how it\'s so misleading. This whole deal is of his creation, so far as I\'ve seen.[/quote:31iwuhmy]\n\nThe president does not create, compose, or vote on bills such as this.  That is done by our senators and congressmen.  All the president does is either sign, or veto the approved bill.  \n\nIf the president was given the \"line item veto\" that he\'s been wanting, these amendments to larger bills could be thinned out as needed.  For some reason, the democrats are against the line item veto.','',0,'gA==','31iwuhmy',1,0,'',51,0,0),(1453,352,1,180,0,'66.161.151.110',1115293955,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','bah, i was misunderstood. i\'m in full support of the ALF credo, this website, and animal rights. i don\'t support things where any life is hurt.','',0,'gA==','167491jh',1,0,'',180,0,0),(1454,352,1,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1115304835,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','no problem','We understand. We pointed to our credo only because there are some folks who believe they are acting in the name of the ALF, but who are reckless in their actions. We want to help folks remember to plan carefully before they act. We haven\'t heard of a firebombing that didn\'t risk lives. Until we hear of one, we\'ll assume they are acts of emotion, not compassion.','',0,'gA==','3dsxwso2',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1509,243,12,175,0,'216.196.164.250',1115699983,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;licrow&quot;:3mc8l4vr]\n\nThis whole deal is of his creation, so far as I\'ve seen.[/quote:3mc8l4vr]\n\nNow THAT is misleading!!!!!!!!!!!!!!\n\nRead the link, who authored and sponsored the action????\n\nA \"head in sand\" emoticon is desperately needed here.','',0,'gA==','3mc8l4vr',1,0,'',175,0,0),(1618,392,19,193,0,'12.221.255.72',1116320634,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','my son is driving me insane','ok my son wants a snake. i do not for a number of reasons. 1) they are better in the wild. i told my son that. his response \"well wont you take better care of them than the pet store daddy?\" haha 2) you have to feed them mice. YUCK! i couldnt do that. my son\'s response: cant you make them vegetarians? im trying to explain to him why it is a bad idea. any advice?','',0,'gA==','2a3n7kkj',1,0,'',193,0,0),(1738,422,13,124,0,'24.71.223.148',1116893914,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Unbelievable','There is this board on the internet where all hunters/fishermen go and post information about fishing spots, their \"catch of the day\", what they shot that night, where they shot it, how big its antlers were,  etc etc, and me, being the sh*t disturber I am, thought it would be fun to go in there and post some animal rights messages amongst these hunters.  I replied to one post in particular, which showed a bunch of hunters making a PETA sign out of dead geese that they shot that day, with a pile of shotgun shells in front of these geese and every one of these hunters held up their middle finger.  Well, that got me all riled so of course I had to reply.  Well, I am not here to put down anyone, but honestly I have never dealt with such \"stupid\" people in my life.  They were CLUELESS about the things I was saying and basically calling me a liar for what I was saying.  They are people who have absolutely NO compassion or respect for any living creature on this planet.  I am steamed by this.  I, of course, was the only animal rights activist on this discussion thread, and I was being \"beaten up\" by many hunters on this post. No worries, I can take insults and beatings my fellow ALFers.  No fear.  I finished off my last post knowing that I am just blowing words out of my ass and not getting anywhere with these people.   I just cant believe that these people can be so closed to reality!!!  If anyone wants to view this picture, I can give you the link.  Let me know.\n\nHow frustrating let me tell ya dealing with these twits!   <!-- s:moon: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_butt.gif\" alt=\":moon:\" title=\"moon\" /><!-- s:moon: -->','',0,'gA==','23r0qczn',1,0,'',124,0,0),(1739,422,13,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1116894885,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','We\'ve all done it -- once','We\'ve all tried to talk to people who were strongly against animal rights. See mistake #4 on this list for tips in how to avoid it:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.us/ALFront/mistakes.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.us/ALF ... stakes.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nStress is as bad for your health as a 12-ounce steak.\n\nDon\'t frustrate yourself unless you are very tired and need an adrenaline boost. But make sure you laugh when you fail.','',0,'gA==','3kpz5gpw',1,0,'',2,0,0),(1742,422,13,124,0,'24.71.223.148',1116907980,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thanks Ann for the tip!  But, I have to say, I was totally looking for it.  I knew that I was going to stir up a huge hornet nest and I knew that talking with these people was going to be fruitless.  I just wanted to get these people\'s dander up.  It is my nature I think.  hee hee   <!-- s:whistle: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_whistle.gif\" alt=\":whistle:\" title=\"whistle\" /><!-- s:whistle: -->   I am a Scorpio, that should explain everything.  \n\nStill, I will never understand the mentality of these people.  Are they even human?  I just plain and simply dont get it.  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> \n\nWell, I feel better now.  On to the next thing.... <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) -->','',0,'gA==','3cf4nxj4',1,0,'',124,0,0),(1822,392,19,77,0,'70.33.32.44',1118514454,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Snakes are MUCH happier in the wild than they could ever be caged. Explain to him that buying a snake is supporting the misery of more snakes that they\'ll purchase with the money you spend saving one. Try also telling him how absolutely miserable and terrifying it is for the mice, bred in captivity, held in overcrowded cages, and if they survive they are then trapped in a tiny space with no place to hide until they are swallowed alive by a massive predator. In the wild, a mouse would have a fighting chance. Snakes cannot be vegitarian because they won\'t eat anything that doesn\'t move.','',0,'gA==','3fnd6vmd',1,0,'',77,0,0),(1876,447,2,2,0,'69.175.37.252',1119669740,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','FORUM GUIDELINES/RULES: Mandatory for all members','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting\">http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting</a><!-- m -->\r\n\r\nTo participate in the discussion forum you must agree to follow these guidelines and rules. We encourage active debate and free speech but we reserve the right to delete any message(s) or portion(s) thereof. Moderators of this forum have the duty to enforce the rules. They are empowered to make positive actions consistent with the goals of this forum (see below). Failure to heed warnings from the Moderators and/or Administrators is grounds for temporary suspension of posting privileges.\r\n\r\nUsers may disagree with the decisions or actions of the Moderators and/or Administrators, but disagreements, criticism and the like are not to be aired within the discussion topics.\r\n\r\n[b:3qo2sm8m]Purpose / goals of the forum[/b:3qo2sm8m]: To provide intelligent discussion and debate about animal rights philosophy, especially the grey areas. If you don\'t know the grey areas then you need to read before you write.\r\n\r\nThe forum\'s goal is threefold (in order of importance):\r\n\r\n1. To provide clarity to visitors from around the world about the logic of animal rights philosophy. To this end, illogical opinions will be corrected or deleted. Moderators may be more strict with pro-AR opinions because those opinions should be logical. Nonsensical anti-AR opinions may remain with their errors in logic flagged, as an example to readers. \r\n\r\n2. To help train ARAs who want to help educate others about animal rights topics. Things you might learn here that apply to &quot;real life&quot;:\r\na. Not everyone is logical. We recommend that you respond with logic one time, then ignore them. Getting frustrated is a waste of time.\r\nb. Most people want to give their opinion. Few want your opinion.\r\nc. Since you will need to ignore people and they will need to ignore you, try to figure out as fast as possible when a thread is going nowhere. Unless you are bored. \r\nd. If you really care about animals and not about winning arguments you will realize that &quot;people skills&quot; are important. One vegan does less for farm anmals than a carnivore who convinces three other people to become vegetarian. Lesson: Your effectiveness is not all about YOU.\r\n\r\n3. A place to exchange information such as news, recipes, interesting media, etc. (please note this is last of the three goals).\r\n\r\n[i:3qo2sm8m]What this forum is not[/i:3qo2sm8m]: A sanctuary only for people believing in animal rights philosophy. There are many excellent animal rights forums for those who don\'t want their ideas challenged. The other forums are wonderful for folks needing moral support and pats on the back from like-minded folks (which we all need from time to time).\r\n\r\n[b:3qo2sm8m]Before you post[/b:3qo2sm8m]: \r\n\r\nYou need to understand the concept of [u:3qo2sm8m]brainstorming[/u:3qo2sm8m], which is essentially that ideas should be developed and fully understood [i:3qo2sm8m]before [/i:3qo2sm8m]they are attacked.\r\n\r\nYou need to read the 96 [u:3qo2sm8m]AR FAQs [/u:3qo2sm8m]so that you are not asking questions that have been answered in detail. Repetition is boring. Repetition is boring.\r\n\r\nYou need to understand the [u:3qo2sm8m]rules of logic[/u:3qo2sm8m]. They are on our website here: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Debating/Logic/fallacies.html\">http://animalliberationfront.com/Philos ... acies.html</a><!-- m -->\r\n\r\n[b:3qo2sm8m]Summary of Rules for posting[/b:3qo2sm8m]: By registering and participating here you agree to respect and abide by the following standard:\r\n\r\n1. You agree not to be a jerk (details below).\r\n\r\n[b:3qo2sm8m]Result of not following the rule[/b:3qo2sm8m]: You will get an automatic &quot;time-out&quot;. It is up to the user who receives the time-out to contact a forum administrator and confirm that they have a) re-read the rules, b) have some idea of where they violated the rules, c) will try to abide by the rules. Upon receiving your confirmation your account will be immediately reactivated. If you are not certain of what rule(s) you violated you may ask for an explanation. This may take awhile before you get reactivated as this is not a priority of administrators.\r\n\r\n[i:3qo2sm8m]Note[/i:3qo2sm8m]: A good way to prove to the administrators that you have not read these guidelines is by asking &quot;When is so-and-so coming back?&quot;, especially asking this question in a discussion thread. This may result in a deserved &quot;time out&quot;.\r\n\r\n[b:3qo2sm8m]Guideline Details[/b:3qo2sm8m]: Members should encourage ideas and attempt to combine and improve them.\r\n\r\n1. Stick to logic. Debate ideas. Keep references to other posters to a minimum.\r\n\r\n2. Refrain from harassing or baiting others into arguments. This occurs when someone makes statements with an assumption of someone else\'s belief, such as &quot;Why do ARA\'s want to kill people with AID\'s?&quot; or &quot;Why do you hunt?&quot; While they may be legitimate questions, asking any question that is disingenuous is harassment. Whether a post is harassment or well-intentioned will be a moderator\'s judgment call. \r\n\r\n3. You are legally responsible for what you write. By participating in a discussion, you undertake to indemnify us against any liability arising from any breach of confidentiality, copyright or other intellectual property right published by you on this site and against all damages, losses, claims and costs (including, without limitation, all expenses incurred in conducting or defending any proceedings) arising from any such publication. You must not make statements that are libellous, obscene, seek to incite racial hatred or otherwise break laws. These are the rules of almost all ISPs.\r\n\r\n[b:3qo2sm8m]Guidelines on the behavior[/b:3qo2sm8m] required to comply with this rule. This is not an exhaustive set of rules and it is left to the discretion of Moderators and Administrators to decide what is and is not acceptable behavior.\r\n\r\nDo not post material that is knowingly defamatory, abusive, threatening, harassing, or generally viewed by a reasonable person as being a derogatory epithet.\r\n\r\nComments about other users, insults and flames are not acceptable. Calling a fellow poster &quot;delusional&quot;, &quot;deceitful&quot;, or a similarly inflammatory accusation, is not acceptable even if you believe that the accusation is true.\r\n\r\nThe discussion forum tries to be an intellectually-stimulating environment in which users exchange ideas in the spirit of discovery. Do not poison that environment with acrimony.\r\n\r\nRefrain from disrupting ongoing discussions with inflammatory speech.\r\n\r\nHyperbolic or overly-emotive language and imagery, such as saying &quot;Vivisectionists are morons&quot;, is discouraged.\r\n\r\nOff-topic posting or hijacking of threads is inappropriate.\r\n\r\nIn general, any material that is deliberately goading should not be posted.\r\n\r\nMembers will refrain from retaliating to inflammatory material with further insults or inappropriate comments.\r\n\r\nIf you encounter a post that you believe contravenes the rules of the board then you are encouraged to alert a forum moderator. \r\n\r\nAdministrators may monitor Private Messages (PMs). You must agree not to use the Private Message system to circumvent the forum rules regarding insults, threats or harassment. Should such abuse come to the attention of the Administrators, the Administrators will treat PMs as if they were open posts.\r\n\r\nYou will not advertise or solicit other members to buy, sell or peruse any products or services through this discussion forum. Chain letters and junk mail are strictly prohibited.\r\n\r\nYou will not violate a person\'s privacy by publishing information that could be considered private and personal without first having obtained that person\'s permission.\r\n\r\nYou will not post material that has little or no educational purpose or significant relevance to an ongoing thread.\r\n\r\n[i:3qo2sm8m]Note[/i:3qo2sm8m]: When threads generate more heat than light, which happens when debaters become frustrated and repeat statements that others ignore, the threads will be locked. The debate can be started again. Sometimes this helps.\r\n\r\n[b:3qo2sm8m]Suggestions[/b:3qo2sm8m]: Save your pearls of wisdom. Many threads will be pruned to the most meaningful posts. Chit-chat will eventually be pruned, along with old news items, discussion of old news items, comments and threads that are redundant with either other threads, the FAQs, or articles posted on the web site. The primary reason for this is the &quot;readability&quot;. Since pruning may be done by different people please don\'t ask us to explain why something was pruned.','',0,'YQ==','3qo2sm8m',1,1197694282,'',2,17,0),(1916,457,12,19,0,'24.12.84.72',1119927137,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Why I Hate Vegetarians','On the actual website there are links and such...but here is her address:\n\n<!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:juliebindel@yahoo.co.uk\">juliebindel@yahoo.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.maninnature.com/Management/ARights/Rights1w.html\">http://www.maninnature.com/Management/A ... hts1w.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nWhy I Hate Vegetarians\nPeople should not be bullied into giving up meat by humourless, judgmental souls using spurious arguments\n\nBy Julie Bindel*\n\nEating in a meat-free restaurant the other day made me realise why I hate vegetarians. The food, unlike the tasteless, bland rubbish often served up in such places, was delicious. Unusually for meatless cuisine, it had flavour and texture, and had even been seasoned. What was unpalatable were the customers and waiting staff, all of whom seemed to believe that what they were eating made them superior. They all looked smug and self-satisfied. It brought it home to me that most vegetarians - and I am largely excluding those who eschew meat for religious and cultural reasons - give themselves a bad name. They are better than you, don\'t you know? The atmosphere in the restaurant was one of pompous aloofness. I left with indigestion.\n\nPeople often assume I don\'t eat meat, because I am a feminist and vaguely of the left. I have turned up at dinner parties to find the host has assumed that at least one guest would be vegetarian, and served undercooked baked potatoes. What an atrocity! Why can they not put a chicken in the oven at the same time? Or is the sight of meat so offensive to veggies that they would pass out at the table?\n\nRecent converts can be the worst. I have lost friends to the cult who, once they get fed the mantra from the militants, become something akin to ex-smokers. I am tired of feeling self-conscious in restaurants when ordering meat in front of them. No one should deny that factory-farmed animals are kept in the most appalling conditions, and that eating too much meat is bad for you. But look at their claims. Crusaders promote vegetarianism not only as healthy but as a solution to world hunger and a safeguard of the planet.\n\nDo not assume living without animal products is always a positive, healthy choice. A vegan couple in America have recently been charged with child abuse for malnourishing their three small children. They had been brought up on a vegan diet from birth. There have been similar cases where children, who cannot choose what they eat, have had their health severely damaged because of their parents\' principles. They are putting the welfare of animals before that of their children. Giving up meat and dairy has been linked to anorexia and other eating disorders in teenage girls. Lack of vitamin B12, found mainly in meats, eggs, dairy and fish, can cause brain damage. Most vegans, and some non-meat-eaters, have to supplement their diet with pills. In the developed world, vegetarianism is a privileged choice. How many working-class vegetarians do you know? It is not an option for most poor people in this country.\n\nA veggie colleague once said of a woman with her three young children in a supermarket, \"Have you seen those cheap beefburgers and pies she\'s feeding them? Why does she not go to the market, buy some fresh vegetables and make them all some nice, healthy soup?\" Again that assumption that vegetarian and vegan foods are cheaper, which they are not, and that the mother had all the time in the world to prepare food from scratch.\n\nLet\'s get our priorities right. People who put foxes and lambs before people do not have my vote. Animal liberationists blowing up scientists for conducting experiments that might lead to a cure for cancer are odious. There are more refuge spaces for cats than there are for women and their children fleeing domestic violence. While rape crisis centres are closing due to lack of funds, animal charities are raking it in.\n\nAlthough vegetarianism is often seen as a \"women\'s issue\", there is a nasty, misogynistic wing that relies on sexist images and messages to convince people that meat is murder. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Peta) are the worst offenders. One of their early adverts features a woman dragging a fur coat behind her. She is captioned as a \"dumb animal\". Another has a woman having her fur coat ripped off in the street and clubbed to death by a man, to make the point that it is not nice to be killed for your coat. The actor who played Lolita in the 1997 remake became \"the youngest star to pose naked for Peta\'s anti-fur campaign\". The message is: treat women, not animals, like meat.\n\nThose who think we should not eat meat because all life is sacred are naive. Would they be happy allowing mosquitoes to spread malaria, or having rats run loose in their home? Not all creatures are equal. There are natural hierarchies in the food chain.\n\nPeople should be allowed to make their own choices and not be bullied or frightened into giving up meat. In the US recently, children in a secondary school were taken by their teachers to a slaughterhouse to show them how animals are killed for food. This tactic is a form of mind control, as unethical as discouraging young girls from having sex by making them watch a difficult childbirth.\n\nI may hate vegetarians because they make me feel guilty, or because, meat being so delicious, they must have lots of willpower. But as an animal lover who agrees in principle with most reasons for giving up meat, I would rather not join that band of humourless, judgmental souls. It would seem that you are indeed what you eat.\n\n*The author is a freelance writer and the founder of Justice for Women.','',0,'YQ==','zsif0jy7',1,0,'',19,0,0),(1934,458,14,251,0,'24.22.126.153',1120002396,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Any one know of a AR radio station?','Just wear they talk about AR and stuff and if you know what station number?','',0,'YQ==','364myc5z',1,0,'',251,0,0),(1968,465,19,251,0,'24.22.126.153',1120100386,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Ducks','I have 2 sweet ducks they live out side and run freely through my yard (and never run away)  There still growing but when their full grown i thnk that they will be able to fly do you think it would be wrong to clip tjeir wings so they can still fly but just not really high?  Becuase im totallly agiest keeping exotic birds in cages and clipping there wings and stuff.','',0,'YQ==','1nwrd8mv',1,0,'',251,0,0),(2054,477,19,254,0,'195.92.168.169',1120867818,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Wrong to keep dogs on on leads','Personally I think its really cruel to keep a dog on a lead. I think people are lazy and selfish when they dont train their puppies to walk without a lead, its not hard and they learn very fast. My dog is now 15 and he has  a great life, he\'s never needed a lead (except in places where you have to). \n\nI feel sorry for other dogs who I see on beaches stuck on a lead and watching my dog enjoying himself running around. What sort of a life is that!!?\n\nObviously some have to be kept on leads e.g. if you have got your dog from a shelter and he\'s too old to learn, or if he\'s aggressive to other dogs (but then again that is mostly the owners fault for not making it obedient)','',0,'YQ==','tor0qlvp',1,0,'',254,0,0),(2055,465,19,254,0,'195.92.168.169',1120868029,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think it would be absolutely awful if you chopped its wings. Its playing \'\'god\'\'. Its so cruel to do that to the ducks, how would u like it if your toes were chopped off so that you didnt wander too far. You should let them live their life as it is.','',0,'YQ==','3qe9qcaw',1,0,'',254,0,0),(2056,477,19,19,0,'24.12.84.72',1120876176,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think it is perfectly acceptable to use a leash.  It is also for the animals protection.  Now, to permanently chain a dog is wrong.','',0,'YQ==','31t279fb',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2070,477,19,240,0,'69.231.68.123',1121119757,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;discolisious&quot;:11yay9tj]I think it is perfectly acceptable to use a leash.  It is also for the animals protection.  Now, to permanently chain a dog is wrong.[/quote:11yay9tj]\n\nQFT','',0,'gA==','11yay9tj',1,0,'',240,0,0),(2085,484,12,19,0,'168.143.113.41',1121265073,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Everyone is getting arrested','Lately I have noticed that lots of people I know are getting arrested.  I know \'they\' are starting to crack down on animal rights groups/individuals, but this is rediculous!  I fear this is a growing trend...','',0,'gA==','10d0mn6t',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2119,465,19,265,0,'24.247.214.155',1121365147,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','What kind of ducks? Are they domestic or wild? Most domestic ducks naturally don\'t have the ability to fly, so wing clipping is not needed. If the birds are wild it would not only be illegal, but cruel to the ducks to clip their wings. Adele, I\'m not sure if you know this, but wing clipping is painless, all that happens is the tips of the wing feathers are cut off. Eventually the feathers would grow back.','',0,'gA==','19ezvh2v',1,0,'',265,0,0),(2122,484,12,247,0,'63.18.112.40',1121397608,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','What are they being arrested for?','',0,'gA==','10ath3rk',1,0,'',247,0,0),(2124,484,12,19,0,'24.12.84.72',1121402633,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Assorted activist things, nothing serious!','',0,'gA==','3exgu1o7',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2127,465,19,254,0,'195.92.168.167',1121467520,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeh I do know wing clipping is painless, my post may have been misleading by me referencing \'\'cutting off toes\'\'.......which obviously is painful, but the point I was trying to make is that is wrong to restrict the birds, they have feathers for a purpose just as we have toes/feet for a purpose.','',0,'gA==','1onofq9y',1,0,'',254,0,0),(2130,465,19,19,0,'168.143.113.53',1121490588,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','A major concern with wing clipping (IMO) is how can the ducks defend against predators with clipped wings?  Isn\'t flying a way of escape?\n\nOK, besides all the other points listed previously...','',0,'gA==','3asqto3z',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2170,465,19,251,0,'24.22.126.147',1121892663,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','NO No NO why would i do that to wild ducks there domestic i got them from a shelter when they were about a month old one (bazil) is  a idian runner and the other is Hara shes a Peken iv looked on lots of duck sites  but none say which species can fly or not if they were strong ducks who could fend for them selves i would be fine with letting them go  if they wanted but it seems that it would be just like taking a cat or dog and put him/her out in the wilderness it would be cruel i dont think they would fly away becuase we have a huge yard but they only go in half  they have a very nice life they have a huge yard and a garden to explore with lots of bugs to eat a big pond to swim in that we made for them which we clean out every other day and they follow me around every where when i go out to play with them','',0,'gA==','1lte23yz',1,0,'',251,0,0),(2172,465,19,251,0,'24.22.126.147',1121893551,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','well if i do clip their wings then ill secure my back yard really good (its allready fenced execpt for one opening) so racoons and other animals that may eat them cant get in.  And IF i clipped their wings i wouldnt chop of their wings i would (well not me) just clip a little part of their feather which wouldnt hert any more then if you or me clipped our fingernails','',0,'gA==','3ad3dvr4',1,0,'',251,0,0),(2173,477,19,251,0,'24.22.126.147',1121894232,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I do not think it is cruel to walk a dog on a leash but i dont have a dog but if i did i would get a elderly one from a shelter which would probabl;y not be trained to not walk on a leash but i do know some one who id disambled that cant take her dog on walks so i take him once or twice a week and play with him and take him on walk i think that if i didnt have him on a leash he would still stay beside me but the promlem is im worried that he might run after a car and get hit but when we go to the park i let him off his leash to play in the field','',0,'gA==','1s4itvo8',1,0,'',251,0,0),(2246,457,12,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1122667783,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Julie Bindel is a woman who play  three monkeys to defend  her cruel uncilivized life style to contribute most horrible farm animal torture and shocking violent  death.\nAnybody who read slaughterhouse by Gail A. Eisnitz and watched <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.meetyourmeat.com\">www.meetyourmeat.com</a><!-- w --> knows it takes extra cruel selfish people to keep eating farm animals.\nTheir eyes don\'t lie.\nI don\'t think I am holier and better person than meat eaters but I am more humane sensitive persson than meat eaters.\nBible tells us that heart of wicked is cruel.\nIn my opinion, when it is not necessary for us to kill animals to survive, consumption of meat is viewed as uncivilized primitive life style.\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.goveg.com/feat/r-shouse3.html\">http://www.goveg.com/feat/r-shouse3.html</a><!-- m -->\nToo many meat eaters conveniently pretend that meat they eat come from humanely raised and killed farm animals to defend themselves because they don\'t want to feel guilt.\nThere is no such thing call humanely raised and killed farm animals when farm animals are viewed as food animals.','',0,'gA==','150p59ow',1,0,'',119,0,0),(2251,457,12,19,0,'24.12.84.72',1122691177,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I agree completely.  Once again I see this as conditioning.  When Jake was an infant I was reading on making your own baby food (what to feed, etc.).  I read that you should always mix meat with something sweet like sweet potatoes so that they can get use to the taste.  Meat is not something they will eat on their own (no seasoning or cover ups).  You have to condition your child to eat meat.  Thank Dog I am vegan and never had to worry about it.  My child thinks it is a fate worse than death if you take away his vegtables.','',0,'gA==','1pd9pk16',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2264,465,19,251,0,'24.22.126.147',1122786568,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','found out that they actually woundnt be able to fly anyway but if they were able to then iv decided i wouldnt clip thier wings:)','',0,'gA==','289yrso5',1,0,'',251,0,0),(2303,532,4,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1122944496,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Yes, Paralized Veterans of America support vivisection','I thought Paralized Veterans of America doesn\'t support vivisection and wanted to support this organization but sadly this organization support animal sacrifice.\n\n&lt;&lt;Are animals used in spinal cord injury research funded by PVA?&gt;&gt;\n&lt;&lt;Yes. PVA\'s two spinal cord research foundations attempt to fund the most promising research projects in the country. On occasion this means research that uses laboratory animals. If you prefer that your donations not be used for this purpose, we are happy to restrict your gifts to one of our other programs or we will remove your name from our mailing list. Please call us at 1-800-555-9140 or e-mail us with your request.&gt;&gt;\n\nNo matter how much I want to suppoft paralized veterans of America, I cannot support with my clear conscience as animal rights activist knowing that there is no benefit of animal experimentation for paralized veterans.\nAnimals never start war.\nWhy Paralized Veterans of America justify sacrifice of animals?\nPlease don\'t misunderstand me because I feel bad when everytime I think about those palalized veterans of America who fought for our freedom and paralized but in my opinion, it is morally wrong to torture and kill innocent defenseless animals for useless spinal cord injury research. \nWhat is your opinion people?\nBelow is links of PCRM concerning spinal cord injury.\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.pcrm.org/resch/anexp/beyond/spinal_0505.html\">http://www.pcrm.org/resch/anexp/beyond/spinal_0505.html</a><!-- m -->\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.pcrm.org/resch/anexp/\">www.pcrm.org/resch/anexp/</a><!-- w -->','',0,'gA==','3f6u4fy8',1,0,'',119,0,0),(2315,536,18,255,0,'64.12.117.12',1123033556,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Kim Chi cravings','After having spent about a year in South Korea teaching school children I really became accustom to their pro-veg diet. I know they have some really bad practices with animals for slaughter , but I enjoyed the vegan angle and have a rice steam pot in my house on almost all the time.\n\nBut, I love the hot traditional cabbage Kim Chi and find myself craving it times. Does anyone else have this diet craving? Just curious.','',0,'gA==','1ue1wnua',1,0,'',255,0,0),(2316,536,18,255,0,'64.12.117.12',1123033697,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Vegan friendly Korean recipes here.','If you want to try any of the vegan Korean Kim Chis and not just the hot cabbage version please let me know. The spinach sesame oil version and bean sprouts are some of my favorites.\n\nHave a wonderful evening,\n\nWolgang','',0,'gA==','iggvkcos',1,0,'',255,0,0),(2324,536,18,19,0,'24.12.84.72',1123036088,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I was recently pregnant and had cravings all the time.  Being well versed in the kitchen I was able to make all of my cravings.  Hot fudge sundaes at 2am were a big thing (thank dog for tofutti).  I went on vacation and had a craving for chili and a chocolate shake at 3am.  So I called room service and spoke to the chef on duty.  He made me amazing vegan chili and a chocolate \'freeze\' (they did not have non dairy ice cream, so he used soymilk and ice).  OK that cost about $35.00 but it was well worth it.  \n\nBTW I love oriental food!  I have a family close by that will cook awesome vegan things for me <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->  I also started growing my own sprouts.','',0,'gA==','jf8fnjeu',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2339,538,22,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1123085452,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Wake up meat/dairy/egg eaters.  Learn what you eat!','I don\'t think all flesh eaters are cold blooded barbarians because many people are eating farm animals without knowing shocking reality of harvesting meat from our fellow creatures who were unfotunate enough to be born as food animals.\nWhat I cannot understand is people who are well aware of life long torture of billions of factory farmed animals but still continue to eat flesh of these animals.\nWe cannot view Babies and children who eat meat/dairy/eggs innocently without knowing horrible pain and suffering of farm animals same way we view people who are knowledgeable about  horrific treatment of farm animals in factory farms and other livestock farms.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.slaughterhousecam.com/\">http://www.slaughterhousecam.com/</a><!-- m -->\nI wasn\'t born yesterday.\nI dealt with many people who are very insensitive about animal suffering and contine to eat animal products day after day after they are exposed to reality of horror in factory farms.\nAlmost all these people steal, cheat and do anything for their own profit.\nPeople without conscience can do anything without fearing God.','',0,'gA==','dqypture',1,0,'',119,0,0),(2377,536,18,255,0,'152.163.101.6',1123200108,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Cucumber salad','This is one of my favs.\n\n3 small cucumbers (slice diagnoly)\n1small sweet onion (julienne)\njalepenos to taste   (juliene)\n1 Haas Avocado\n1 Tbspn. lime juice\n1 1/3 cup white vinegar\n1 Tbspn sugar\n1 taesppon sesame oil\n\n\nPrepare and mix every thing but the avaocado and lime juice at least 4 hours till serving. Then let marinate in refrigerator. Right before serving peel snad deseed avocado, cut into cubes and sprinkle with lime juice to maintain color and gently fold into marinated salad . It is ready to be served then.\n\nLet me know if you like. But, it sure is fresh considering the heat. For that added extra toss in a little cilantro for garnish.','',0,'gA==','2fqqvq6k',1,0,'',255,0,0),(2436,465,19,251,0,'24.22.126.147',1123629782,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','petion','oh and please sign this <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/590473370\">http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/590473370</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','n3rrhjun',1,0,'',251,0,0),(2437,465,19,19,0,'198.65.167.204',1123634755,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That petition is a great idea, but meeting P&amp;G higer ups I know they will not give a damn, the bastards.','',0,'gA==','353mn398',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2453,465,19,251,0,'24.22.126.147',1123790377,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','higer ups?  Well its worth a try','',0,'gA==','sldko8nb',1,0,'',251,0,0),(2462,457,12,160,0,'65.102.3.78',1123908417,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Why I Hate Vegetarians','[b:10jjwoyw][size=7][/I think the woman who wrote this bullshit artricle has brain damage ,Janine <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: --> [/b:10jjwoyw]','',0,'QA==','10jjwoyw',1,0,'',160,0,0),(2570,571,19,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1124506556,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Any good idea about how to save poor dog?','If you have good idea about how to save dog who is tied and neglected, please let her know.\nNo dog deserves to be tied and neglected!\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4155&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=0\">http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewt ... sc&amp;start=0</a><!-- m -->\n\nI remember when I saw Goldenretriver who was tied under the scorching sun in over 100 degree without any food and water in lumber yard.\nHe was flea infected and nothing but skin and bones, covered with mud.\nI wanted cut the chain and bring him or her home to save poor creature but because too many people were working there, I hesitated to do so.\nNext day, I went back lumberyard and asked S of B (sorry but anybody who let poor creature to starve to death is S of B) to give his dog to me.\nI said to him, \"I had dog just like your dog many years ago but he died of old age. Can I have your dog?\nHe told me that dog belong to his son but if you want him, you can have him.\nI was so afraid if he is going to tell me \"No, you cannot have him.\"\nIf he did, I don\'t know what I did!\nQuickly I put him in my car and drove like race car driver because I was so afraid if he change him mind and take him back.\nTo make long story short, in less than month, that flea infested real live skelton turned to most beautiful dog around our neighborhood and nobody could believe he is exactly that same dog I rescued.\nI found out later that this goldenretriever was still puppy.\nNeedless to say, I called SPCA and explained to lady who answered my phone about condition of the dog I rescued and asked them to investigate property of lumber yard if they can find other starving neglected dogs or not.\nGood thing I did not give my address when I was taking dog from S of B, if I did,  never can tell what he did to me.','',0,'QA==','3gbttmqt',1,0,'',119,0,0),(2572,571,19,19,0,'198.65.167.208',1124510718,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have done some pretty sneaky things to get a dog (or any other animal) out of harms way.  There are lots of different ways to handle a situation like this.  You can ask for the animal and you might get him/her.  If you don\'t get the animal and then the situation is bad enough the people will probobaly know you took the dog (assuming there is no other option).  You can talk to all the neighbors, call the landlord (if applicable), call the peoples family and tell everyone how they treat their furry family members.  I have had people bombarded with letters from my friends at Dogs Deserve Better (they ROCK).  You also could have a friend ring the door bell in the evening and tell the wife of the house that she is pregnant by her (wife\'s) husband while you use bolt cutters and take the dog).  NOT that I am saying to do anything like that or saying I have done anything like that....there are lots of things that can be done.  This story sounds like the girl was lucky and got the dog.','',0,'QA==','3q5ypl6l',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2575,571,19,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1124538574,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','discolisious, that was my true story of rescuing Goldenretriever and I have other stories to tell.\nMore than several years ago, Spanish people lived in our neighborhood and they had male young German shepherd tied in their back yard all year around.\nCan you imagine my emotional pain by looking at that dog day after day?\nOf course I called SPCA many times to report animal cruelty.\nLater, I found out that owner of dog is police man.\nSadly SPCA could not do much to help the dog other than spoke to owner to provide decent dog house because they had dog house that was too small for their dog to get in!\nThe reason why cruely  investigater couldn\'t do much to help this dog was because dog acted very vicious and he was too afraid to get ner the dog.\nWhen we don\'t have strict laws to protect our companion animals, only thing cruelty investigaters can do is to speak to owner to provide shelter  food, and water to animals, and that is all.\nNo matter how cold and dog is shivering or no matter how much dog is suffering in hot weather, there is not much these investigaters can do to help animals because of non existence of strict laws to protect our companion animals.\nI contacted German shepherd rescue organization and explained the situation but they couldn\'t do much to help him either.\nI really wanted to buy that dog to give him better life but because my family was against it, I could not do so.\nOne time he broke chain and came in my yard.\nI tried to call dog rescue people after I fed him and gave him water to drink but unfortunately my husband saw him and he doesn\'t wanted confrontation with neighbor knowing what kind of people they are.\nOnly thing I could do for dog was to throw ice cubes and dog biscuits for him in summer time but he barked at everybody and acted like very vicious dog.\nIt was so heart breaking to know that there is no hope for dogs who act like very vicious dogs to have second chance.\nFew years back, Spanish people moved out with him( their dog) and I have no idea where they moved.\n\nSometimes we must do what we need to do to save animals and I took chance to save our companion animals in the past but I just want to forget about my emotional pain I experienced.','',0,'QA==','20s7f8an',1,0,'',119,0,0),(2577,571,19,2,0,'69.175.5.168',1124540094,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','help for chained dogs','There is an entire section on this website regarding helping chained dogs. Please start here:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Pets/PetCare/Help_Chained_Dogs/Help%20Chained%20Dogs.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Pr ... 20Dogs.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'QA==','3t7s2yqg',1,0,'',2,0,0),(2578,571,19,19,0,'207.67.144.49',1124547907,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have seen dogs forever chained that will guard their patch of dirt.  Its so sad.  Most of the time when you get the dog off the chain and show him a better life he turns friendly.  Where I live cops can\'t help you.  Sad but true.  You have to help yourself.\n\nGood job Violet.  You made a big difference in the dogs life:)','',0,'QA==','166ljoay',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2604,577,13,51,0,'24.119.49.106',1124809454,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Disrupting hunts','Hunting season opens in Idaho in just 2 weeks.  I\'ve just been told that a group of AR activists plan to disrupt hunts with whistles and loud music in the SE Idaho Bowhunt.  As that is the area I typically hunt in, I\'ll try and get some photo\'s of them in handcuffs as they get arrested.  I do hope they choose some decent classic rock in their playlist.','',0,'QA==','3ebde8d2',1,0,'',51,0,0),(2605,577,13,19,0,'198.65.167.208',1124816738,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Even if they do get arrested won\'t that cause a big enough commotion to scare away the \'game\'?','',0,'QA==','mod9s6ak',1,0,'',19,0,0),(2606,577,13,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1124817876,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','say what?','I suppose my next statement could be considered conspiring with the enemy, and I may have to turn in my ARA membership card, but here it is:\n   In England, where hunt sabbing originated, sabs don\'t make public anouncements that they plan to sab a hunt. They don\'t want the hunters to go elsewhere or to come prepared with Mace, billy clubs, and riot gear.\n   Typically, when sabs don\'t have sufficient manpower to sab a hunt, they let it \"leak out\" that they are going to sab a hunt, hoping that hunters will spend more time in battle preparations with activists than with animals.\n   It will be interesting to see if the hunt sabs in Idaho are as smart as they are in the UK. Please let us know.\n   Photos would be nice. They might erase the stereo-type of Idaho residents I have in my head that bears a striking resemblance to Elmer Fudd.','',0,'QA==','vum6htly',1,0,'',2,0,0),(2607,577,13,51,0,'24.119.49.106',1124827571,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The ARA types that I have seen in SE Idaho all hail from Jackson hole Wyoming, the hollywood of the rockies.  They\'re more concerned be \"being seen with the in crowd\" than actually doing anything effective.  \n\nIf this group is anything like the last group I encountered, they\'ll be whining that there isn\'t a starbucks nearby and will be gone by noon the first day.\n\n\n\nElmer Fudd??  No ones ever accused me of looking like him before....\n\n[img:3ugx4w9d]http&#58;//img&#46;groundspeak&#46;com/user/142044_200&#46;jpg[/img:3ugx4w9d]','',0,'CA==','3ugx4w9d',1,0,'',51,0,0),(2609,577,13,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1124828841,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','stereotypes','I guess you just can\'t trust media stereo-types.','',0,'CA==','32olqs3s',1,0,'',2,0,0),(2633,477,19,305,0,'81.133.133.207',1125073438,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','That is a very broad statement to make, each animal should be looked at individually, i have 6 dogs, 5 of whom are off the lead where/when it is safe to be off the lead, but my Hunt Terrier who was used in his previous life for coursing is not allowed off the lead, this is for his own safety and the safety of any small furry animals he may come across. Its fine to make a statement as you did, but you have to be sensible and realise that every dog in the world is not like your own. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'CA==','3s9zba88',1,0,'',305,0,0),(2634,571,19,305,0,'81.133.133.207',1125073609,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I have long since given up on expecting authorities to deal with cases like those mentioned above, we now deal with these dogs ourselves, and they have a wonderful life with new owners..strange really, how the previous owners never report them missing..','',0,'CA==','38lwlw7i',1,0,'',305,0,0),(2635,571,19,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1125080349,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','confirmed','I have dozens of data points from various sources that confirm that removing a dog from an abusive owner (yet refuses to give the animal to anyone else), will never replace the animal. I had one neighbor who told everyone that the \"ungrateful bitch ran away\". He was happy the animal was gone. After 300 Pounds of vet bills, the animal lived 13 more happy years.','',0,'CA==','32bsrwjk',1,0,'',2,0,0),(2849,457,12,265,0,'24.247.214.155',1126969069,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I read that article a couple months ago,she\'s a feminist right? How can she go around stereotyping vegetarians like that, isn\'t that what she\'s against?','',0,'CA==','lutcuna7',1,0,'',265,0,0),(2868,457,12,105,0,'62.254.0.56',1127145279,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','vitamin b12 is in the soya margarine that I eat, also I have read somewhere that if you were a meat eater that became a vegan in your mid fourties you would have enough b12 in your body until you are 70.So your body does not need alot of it.','',0,'CA==','3fw4ws2k',1,0,'',105,0,0),(3411,352,1,124,0,'24.71.223.148',1128965886,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It just amazes me that we are called terrorists when we havent killed anyone, we havent taken planes and crashed them into side of high rise buildings killing thousands...we do not do what we do for profit, we do not do what we do for fame, we do it for one thing only and that is to stop animal abuse and liberate those animals who are living a life of hell because some people think they have the right to experiment on them all in the name of \"science\".  Give me a break.  Oh well, I would rather be called a terrorist than be called a sick freak SCIENTIST any day.','',0,'CA==','2m901zum',1,0,'',124,0,0),(3422,352,1,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1128985170,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Thanks','Be nice.\n\nIt is the application of the scientific method that has given the animal rights movement is strength. While we haven\'t yet been able to convince the world that animals should not be property, the observations and tests of the theory that animals suffer greatly, physically and emotionally, is being done by scientists (like me).','',0,'CA==','3ris8c50',1,0,'',2,0,0),(3463,352,1,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1129060316,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sorry AnnB...I should have clarified a little further.  I was talking about the scientists/lab technicians who perform the actual tests on animals in these sick labs like HLS.  I am definately not talking about ALL scientists that\'s for sure!  Now, did I just stick my foot in my mouth even further?  Please let me know when I can take it out??','',0,'CA==','kwcvqmod',1,0,'',124,0,0),(3564,352,1,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1129231338,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cheeseburger_in_paradise, here is what you said.\nYou may argue the morality of the ALF actions...but you cannot argue the legality of them.\n\nMy question to you is, dog fights, cock fights, bullfights, etc are legal in some countries.\nDo you support these sadistic barbarities?\nIf murdering baby is legal, do you murder baby (human or animal.)?','',0,'CA==','1u4rn3ar',1,0,'',119,0,0),(3567,538,22,369,0,'70.108.105.153',1129236090,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Agreed. It is as if people are oblivious to how their steak, burger etc....is made. either that or they don\'t care for animals. Often times I have heard people say that meat is to good to give up. Can\'t they see that their the cause for millions of animals deaths every year, yet they feel like their taste buds happiness is more important then that of a precious animals life. Its depressing, and they are not usaully aware of all the great tasting and healthy alternatives out there. Society is extremely speciesist(a biased view of animals, like racist sexist etc,...). Human infants,and retarded adults are less intelligent  then many animals. So why don\'t meat eaters treat those humans like they do animals? Pigs and many animals are also just as smart, if not smarter then cats or dogs, yet if a dog was treated like food lab or fur animals we\'d be thrown in jail. Much culture is very biased, greedy and unaware, we need to inform them and hope they change for the sake of the animals.','',0,'CA==','23iwpjjt',1,0,'',369,0,0),(3569,538,22,349,0,'68.100.147.80',1129237271,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If you are having a hard time converting people why not try selling them on non-factory farm raised animal products?  In my experience most people don\'t have a problem with animals being killed (it happens in the wild all the time), but don\'t like animals being tortured.  It might be a compromise, but if it takes money from factory farms it is good for the animals.  Also there are not any real arguments against family farms, other then you just don\'t like the killing, and that could be viewed as personal opinion.\n\nIf people don\'t even care about animals being tortured, and love eating meat, you can always sell them on the fact that family farmed animals are healthier and taste better.','',0,'CA==','24zsn23o',1,0,'',349,0,0),(3570,538,22,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1129238331,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','logic','Please don\'t use the logic that SOMETHING or ANYTHING is okay for a person to do \"because it happens all the time\" in the wild, or on the streets of NYC. That never makes it automatically morally acceptable.\n\nRecommendation: If someone uses this logic, don\'t turn your back. Since animals also kill people, they could logically conclude you are fair game.\n\nComment: This thread of logic is detailed in multiple FAQs. Read them. We won\'t be redundant by repeating the answers. If it\'s not worth your effort to read them, it\'s not worth our effort, either.','',0,'CA==','2cstnn52',1,0,'',2,0,0),(3572,538,22,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1129238986,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I\'ve been reading in a magazine about nanotechnology. I didn\'t read the whole article because it was difficult to understand but apparantly, scientists in Austrailia have biologically grown a piece of meat! This has been done without any animal having to be born and killed. Unfortunately it cost hundreds of dollars to grow a small piece of meat but once they perfect this process it could mean the end for factory farming. I do hope so.','',0,'CA==','2pq07jqg',1,0,'',309,0,0),(3575,538,22,349,0,'68.100.147.80',1129244152,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I was not using that logic Ann, though a lot of people do.  You are right that it does not make sense, and I have read the FAQs.  Saying that just because one animal does something does not make it okay implies that what that animal is doing is wrong.  Do you believe its wrong for animals to prey on other animals?  If this is the case, then have you taken action to prevent it?  Or if you believe it is alright for other animals to kill but not humans, then why?  When I argue on the side of animal rights this is always the block I get into, and I am curious of others viewpoints.','',0,'CA==','2fbq40ez',1,0,'',349,0,0),(3578,538,22,369,0,'70.108.105.153',1129251604,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Predatory animals must kill to eat. Humans, in contrast, have a choice; they need not eat meat to survive. Humans differ from nonhuman animals in being capable of conceiving of, and acting in accordance with, a system of morals; therefore, we cannot seek moral guidance or precedent from nonhuman animals.  We have a choice about what we eat and with that comes a responsibility to make educated decisions and to try to understand the effects of our actions.','',0,'CA==','3cl9o6cm',1,0,'',369,0,0),(3579,538,22,2,0,'69.175.5.168',1129254237,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','hedge','ALL the questions you have asked are answered in detail in the FAQs. As for personal opinions, I agree with the FAQ answers.','',0,'CA==','btnignoi',1,0,'',2,0,0),(3850,352,1,105,0,'62.254.0.56',1129835905,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','We have to get away from this obsession with fire as it is bound to hurt something if only a spider. If you directly attacked an animal abuser with your fists at leased you would only be hurting someone who deserved it.','',0,'CA==','43962bvy',1,0,'',105,0,0),(3851,352,1,51,0,'24.119.49.106',1129842697,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;violet13&quot;:bpo0uypr]Cheeseburger_in_paradise, here is what you said.\nYou may argue the morality of the ALF actions...but you cannot argue the legality of them.\n\nMy question to you is, dog fights, cock fights, bullfights, etc are legal in some countries.\nDo you support these sadistic barbarities?\nIf murdering baby is legal, do you murder baby (human or animal.)?[/quote:bpo0uypr]\n\nOf course I don\'t support those things.  I don\'t support alot of things that are legal, but I obey the law.\n\nMy point was that if somethings illegal, and you believe it should be allowed....change the law.\n\nI\'m not aware of any state or country in which arson,vandalism and theft are legal.','',0,'gA==','bpo0uypr',1,0,'',51,0,0),(3852,352,1,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1129848771,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:3p132bzq]My point was that if somethings illegal, and you believe it should be allowed....change the law. [/quote:3p132bzq] The argument is that there are many things which are legal that shouldn\'t be allowed. Changing the law isn\'t that simple. You can\'t deny that illegal activity is more effective in acheiving the desired result.','',0,'gA==','3p132bzq',1,0,'',309,0,0),(3853,352,1,2,0,'208.200.80.214',1129848870,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','The subject is old, but ...','Certainly one of the highest duties of the citizen is a scrupulous obedience to the laws of the nation. But it is not the highest duty.\n --Thomas Jefferson (3rd U.S. President)\n\nGreat men and women have demonstrated throughout history that laws can be immoral, and that we can be justified in breaking them. Those who object to law-breaking under all circumstances would have to condemn:\n\nThe Tiananmen Square demonstrators. . The Boston Tea Party participants. Mahatma Gandhi and his followers. World War II resistance fighters. The Polish Solidarity Movement. Vietnam War draft card burners. The list could be continued almost indefinitely.\n\nConversely, laws sometimes don\'t reflect our moral beliefs. After World War 11, the allies had to hastily write new laws to fully prosecute the Nazi war criminals at Nuremburg. Dave Foreman points out that there is a distinction to be made between morality and the statutes of a government in power.\n\nIt could be argued that the principle we are talking about does not apply. Specifically, the law against destruction of properly is not immoral, and we therefore should not break it. However, a related principle can be asserted. If a law is invoked to defend immoral practices, or to attempt to limit or interfere with our ability to fight an immoral situation, then justification might be claimed for breaking that law.\n\nIn the final analysis, this is a personal decision for each person to make in consultation with their own conscience.\n\n\"I say, break the law.\" Henry David Thoreau, essayist and poet','',0,'gA==','ue2emigx',1,0,'',2,0,0),(4022,538,22,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1130341736,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','hedge, you believe in consumption of humane raised and killed farm animals?\n \nI found very good statement of Animal Rights hero name Gary Yourosky.\nHis statement is exactly same as my statement of meat eaters are farm animal killers!\n\nGary Yourofsky\n<!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:GaryTofu@earthlink.net\">GaryTofu@earthlink.net</a><!-- e -->\nAnimal Rights National Lecturer\n757-943-7457 - <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.adaptt.org\">www.adaptt.org</a><!-- w --> \n\n\"Violence is violence and murder is murder and the only nice slaughterhouse\nis an empty slaughterhouse.  It is the taking of animal\'s life that is the\nultimate violation. Being nice to animals before murdering them with\npremeditation does not exonerate the killer from the murder. And buying the\nflesh of murdered animals who weren\'t de-beaked, de-horned, castrated,\nstolen from their mothers or enslaved in a factory-farm does not exonerate\nthe consumer from being COMPLICIT in the crime either. This is why each and\nevery person who wants to be kind to animals must go vegan. Otherwise, from\nthe animal\'s point of view, the killer and the consumer are the same.\"  G','',0,'gA==','259dxxv0',1,0,'',119,0,0),(4026,538,22,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1130348164,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Also like I said in another post it would be impossible for every meat eater on the planet to only eat so called humanely raised meat as there would not be enough to go round. There is not even enough meat including factory farmed meat to feed the whole world a meat based diet. Whereas if the whole world was vegan there would be enough food for everyone and then some. This is yet another little know reason why it is unethical to eat meat.','',0,'gA==','rr9sahy7',1,0,'',309,0,0),(4032,484,12,369,0,'151.200.21.10',1130371937,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[i]The US government is laying charges that would see him locked up for the rest of his life if convicted. After working tirelessly for years to protect some of the only ancient forests left in the North Western U.S., Tre had become an extremely well-known and important organizer. Like other peaceful organizers, Tre found himself at the forefront of an environmental movement which successfully interfered with industrial powers; he therefore became a target. Environmental journalist Tim Ream wrote in reference to Tre\'s case, “If you garner increasing popular support, you are a threat to everything the state stands for. You must be stopped.â€','',0,'','mvfzemhz',1,0,'',369,0,0),(4464,477,19,254,0,'82.25.47.115',1132025731,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I understand that every dog is not like my own, and obviously you didnt read my post properly because I did say this: \n\n[quote:2jtkurv9]Obviously some have to be kept on leads e.g. if you have got your dog from a shelter and he\'s too old to learn, or if he\'s aggressive to other dogs [/quote:2jtkurv9]\n\nIm just saying that if the opportunity is there to train a dog it should be taken to make that dogs life happier <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','2jtkurv9',1,0,'',254,0,0),(4465,22,15,254,0,'82.25.47.115',1132026027,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','What! Dogs and cats are carnivores, end of!\n\nTo put them on a diet of your choice is wrong, and its stupid to think that they have \'\'chosen\'\' to be vegan, are you loons or what?','',0,'gA==','2u0ruzxt',1,0,'',254,0,0),(4469,477,19,372,0,'68.9.118.224',1132027204,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','In my area it is a law. If you are walking your dog without a leash they can fine you and impound the dog even adopting him out to other people. The only way a dog can be off a leash in my town is if he is in a pen or indoors. I have a pen but I do walk him on a leash, actually I even swim with him on a leash (but he has one eye and sometimes panics and starts sinking so it is neccessary he loves the water though and goes in without being forced in fact I usually have to force him out LOL)\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1rk32ku6',1,0,'',372,0,0),(4470,22,15,372,0,'68.9.118.224',1132027598,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My cat and dog eat mixtures of meat and veggies. My cat for instance loves raw mushrooms by choice, she also loves salmon. She gets both. As far as my dog is concerned he will eat anything including fecal matter if I was gross enough to let him. How I discovered this was when I first adopted him he did... ewww many times it is a nutrition problem but with him it was insecurity as he was badly abused before his adoption to the point he lost an eye and had to be on IV fluids due to mouth burns before I got him. Now he is a spoiled brat that has his own pool!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2gos2yno',1,0,'',372,0,0),(4475,22,15,19,0,'207.195.241.106',1132029379,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Wow Adele, you must be sure of your statement.  Why don\'t you elaborate?','',0,'gA==','11oxlxkh',1,0,'',19,0,0),(4477,22,15,2,0,'69.175.5.168',1132055728,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','dog food','from an interview with Ingrid Newkirk\n\n[quote:2psmmlm9]Petguard, Natural Life, Evolution, Wysongs and several other dog food manufacturers produce high quality vegan dog food. Dogs are omnivores and do very well on a vegan diet. In fact, most animal based dog foods contain more vegetables than animals. Look at the first few ingredients in dog food – they are generally corn or soy meal or other vegetable based items. When I switched my rescued dog to a vegan diet the discharge from her eyes stopped and her coat became more lustrous – she was probably allergic to rendered dogs, cats, cows, sheep, pigs, chickens or other animal food unfit for human consumption that is used for dog food. Sorry, if it’s not fit for me to eat, I won’t feed it to my dog.[/quote:2psmmlm9]','',0,'gA==','2psmmlm9',1,0,'',2,0,0),(4478,22,15,19,0,'207.195.241.35',1132057409,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I feed a meatless holistic dog food.  They love it!','',0,'gA==','1ht53vku',1,0,'',19,0,0),(4480,22,15,376,0,'83.172.205.8',1132060871,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Dogs can be healthy on a vegetarian diet.\n\nCats cannot. I know there always be someone to pop up and say \"my cat is 100% vegetarian and is healthy\". Well, some humans eat meat all their lives three times a day, and live to the age of 100 in good health.\n\nCats are felines. Try feeding salad to a lion and see what he will do to you. He\'ll eat you instead. A cat is just a small lion.... (well, sort of - lol - )','',0,'gA==','3s04uqbq',1,0,'',376,0,0),(4486,22,15,19,0,'207.195.241.35',1132063821,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Beleive this or not, my cats eat salad.  Sprouts, spinach, carrots, broccoli, whatever I throw in there.  In fact, when I make a salad I have to make enough for all the animals or they give me the cold shoulder.','',0,'gA==','20sdizlc',1,0,'',19,0,0),(4489,22,15,254,0,'82.25.47.115',1132065133,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','From personal experience, I\'ve had friends who have fed their dogs on that mixing stuff which comes from a bag, full of corn and vegetables\n1)the dog hated it but he had to eat it because he didnt get a choice \n2) the dog was extremely ill, had diorrhoea all the time-and I think it was due to his diet.\n3) when he had a tin of meat he couldnt eat it quick enough, he thought all his birthdays had come at once.\n\n[b:1gjk5iab]Dogs are carnivores[/b:1gjk5iab] and there is no getting away from that statement, ye its wrong to carry on funding the meat industry but its not fair for you to deny him of his right to eat his natural diet.\n\nIm vegetarian, would like to be vegan but thats another post.....anyway the point Im getting at is yes I would love to stop the meat industry,  but we have all these domestic carnivorous animals which need feeding, whats the solution? I dont know? But we cant deny them of their food, and we cant turn them vegetarian (as much as I would love to if I knew it was right for them)\n\n[b:1gjk5iab]These animals wouldnt have evolved if they didnt kill, we wouldnt have the great biodiveristy of live on our planet, there would be no lions, tigers, sharks etc, the features they have developed are through killing, it is their [u:1gjk5iab]evolutionary right to eat meat[/u:1gjk5iab].[/b:1gjk5iab]\n\nIt would be good if you could take a minute or two to read the following article;\n\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.b-naturals.com/Spr1999.php\">www.b-naturals.com/Spr1999.php</a><!-- w -->','',0,'QQ==','1gjk5iab',1,0,'',254,0,0),(4490,477,19,254,0,'82.25.47.115',1132065437,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Do you ever take your dog into the countryside, or somewhere quiet then where he can get a good run and play?','',0,'QQ==','2ncx7i5b',1,0,'',254,0,0),(4495,22,15,105,0,'62.254.0.56',1132067404,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It does not matter if humans live to a hundred or not they should not be eating meat, why should an animal that has only been on earth say for three months have to die to feed a human who has lived far too long. If however cats do need some meat to stay alive then unfortunatly a small amount of animals would have to die for their sakes','',0,'QQ==','100jnrsf',1,0,'',105,0,0),(4520,477,19,372,0,'68.9.118.224',1132101472,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I run a wildlife habitat and he has a pen on it. It is still illegal to let him off unless he is in the pen or indoors.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QQ==','2bmaxtza',1,0,'',372,0,0),(4521,22,15,372,0,'68.9.118.224',1132103311,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Adele,\n\nMy dog is extremely healthy and he is on a mixed diet. Meat(from the carcass aisle), vegetables(from veggie section), various vegan foods I eat he\'s a beggar, and kibble veggie and non, plus treats when I said mix I did not mean specific type of kibble.... if that is what you meant by your post :-)\n\nAlso Diana if your cat is completely vegan that is awesome, but do check her taurine levels, lack of taurine can cause blindness and joint pain in old age. The symptoms do not show immediately.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QQ==','38rzqx2s',1,0,'',372,0,0),(4524,477,19,51,0,'24.119.49.106',1132108145,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','This is one of the best reasons to live in Idaho.  The liberals have\'nt legislated us to death.\n\nBack on topic.  I see nothing wrong with restraining your dog on a leash when you\'re in public, especially if he\'s not properly trained.  \n\nWhat hashes me is the people who\'s dog spends it\'s life chained up in the backyard.  If you\'re going to own a dog, treat it properly.  Train it so that it knows it\'s bounds.  Feed and exercise it regularly.','',0,'QQ==','36bl2kp6',1,0,'',51,0,0),(4526,477,19,19,0,'207.195.241.35',1132109833,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I agree with you Cheese.  Why have a companion animal and let him/her never know companionship?','',0,'QQ==','g16q45ig',1,0,'',19,0,0),(4536,22,15,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1132138821,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I just adopted a dog called Sammy. He is a Westie, 8 years old and suffers from eczema. The problem I have is that he is used to tinned meat and does not like dry food. Are there any vegan foods that are like meat? I have tried different dry foods including meat ones but he does not like any dry food even when I put gravy on so he\'s not eating enough. He only eats when he gets really hungry. I really don\'t want to give him tinned meat but I feel like I\'m being cruel giving him food he hates. He likes scramble tofu and will eat a little dry food when I mix this in. Is it ok to feed tofu and soya to dogs? Please advise, anyone. Thanks','',0,'QQ==','20ehkb43',1,0,'',309,0,0),(4538,22,15,19,0,'207.195.243.21',1132149230,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Try tuno.  I have heard that works for some picky eaters.  If he doesn\'t like it then you get to eat it <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->  \n\nI cook for my picky eaters or sickies.  I take oats, carrots, celery, a variety of veggies (always including spinach), assorted dried beans, veggie broth and make a thick stew.  I then top it with peanut butter.  You can start to put kibble in it and then reduce the stew to add more kibble...you get the picture.','',0,'QQ==','29vk433k',1,0,'',19,0,0),(4549,477,19,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1132191238,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am so fed up with hunters and dog breeders,  I feel like my hair is going to stand in anger!\nI am working so hard to pass HB1911 (House Bill against people from chaining dogs all year around).\nI already wrote letter to editor and I contacted as many as people who are involved in dog rescue and humane organizations in our state and asked these people to support HB1911 but when I was doing research on HB1911, I found out that hunters and dog breeders are organizing to go against this HB1911.\nI contacted Dogs Deserve Better Representatives and warned them about hunters and dog breeders because we must work much harder than hunters and dog breeders to get this Hour Bill pass.\nI also posted my article concerning HB1911 on board of Animal Rights group in our city and called ALL members of the Judiciary Committee(HB1911 is refered to the judiciary Committee) and asked each of them to support HB1911.\n\nHunters and dog breeders don\'t care anything about miserable life of chainned dogs and suffering of these dogs,  that is why they are so busy asking their State House Reps to vote against HB1911.\nI need to ask many other people to write letter to editor of our local news paper and ask readers  to support HB1911. \nOf course we must explain to people why chaining of dog is cruel\nby showing links of <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/animal_abuse_and_neglect/the_facts_about_chainning\">www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_ ... _chainning</a><!-- w -->\n\nAnimal Liberation Front has excellent article against chainning dogs but because many people don\'t have understanding about Animal Liberation Front and have wrong idea, I am not sure if I should use article or not.','',0,'QQ==','3cpsw7yk',1,0,'',119,0,0),(4552,477,19,2,0,'69.175.5.168',1132194668,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','chained dogs','Most of the information on our site was sent to us from these two sites, so you might link to them:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.unchainyourdog.org/\">http://www.unchainyourdog.org/</a><!-- m -->\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/home.html\">http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/home.html</a><!-- m -->','',0,'QQ==','2zb74xoa',1,0,'',2,0,0),(4556,477,19,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1132209141,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','AnnB, I was checking websites of  <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.unchainyourdog.org/\">http://www.unchainyourdog.org/</a><!-- m -->  and\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/home.html\">http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/home.html</a><!-- m -->  few days ago.\nYes these are good sites to use for persuading people to support HB1911.\nThank you for your quick reply.','',0,'QQ==','4lqq07a9',1,0,'',119,0,0),(4557,477,19,51,0,'24.119.49.106',1132215803,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;violet13&quot;:1kg98alg]I am so fed up with hunters and dog breeders,  I feel like my hair is going to stand in anger!\nI am working so hard to pass HB1911 (House Bill against people from chaining dogs all year around).\nI already wrote letter to editor and I contacted as many as people who are involved in dog rescue and humane organizations in our state and asked these people to support HB1911 but when I was doing research on HB1911, I found out that hunters and dog breeders are organizing to go against this HB1911.\nI contacted Dogs Deserve Better Representatives and warned them about hunters and dog breeders because we must work much harder than hunters and dog breeders to get this Hour Bill pass.\nI also posted my article concerning HB1911 on board of Animal Rights group in our city and called ALL members of the Judiciary Committee(HB1911 is refered to the judiciary Committee) and asked each of them to support HB1911.\n\nHunters and dog breeders don\'t care anything about miserable life of chainned dogs and suffering of these dogs,  that is why they are so busy asking their State House Reps to vote against HB1911.\nI need to ask many other people to write letter to editor of our local news paper and ask readers  to support HB1911. \nOf course we must explain to people why chaining of dog is cruel\nby showing links of <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/animal_abuse_and_neglect/the_facts_about_chainning\">www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_ ... _chainning</a><!-- w -->\n\nAnimal Liberation Front has excellent article against chainning dogs but because many people don\'t have understanding about Animal Liberation Front and have wrong idea, I am not sure if I should use article or not.[/quote:1kg98alg]\n\nThe problem with HB1911 is that it makes it a crime for your dog to be outside.\n\nThis is cut directly from the text of the bill.\n\n\"Tethering and shelter for dogs.--A person commits a summary offense if the person wantonly or cruelly tethers or [b:1kg98alg]pens a dog outside for a period exceeding 16 consecutive hours in a 24-hour period[/b:1kg98alg]\"\n\nWhat this means is if you have a 6 foot chainlink fenced yard (pen) and your dog is in it for more than 16 consecutive hours, you\'re in violation of the law (the loophole would be to allow your dog free run of the neighborhood with no fence).  If this prohibition applied only to tethering your dog, I\'d had no problem with it.  \n\nThe size requirements for \"pens\" would also make virtually all shelters illegal, but I\'m sure they will get a pass.\n\nIt\'s a bad law that should NOT be passed as written.','',0,'wA==','1kg98alg',1,0,'',51,0,0),(4560,477,19,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1132223024,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Cheeseburger please tell me why someone would want to leave their dog outside for more than 16 hours. It is cruel to leave dogs outside for hours on end and 16 hours is far too long anyway! If people don\'t have the time to spend looking after their dogs then they shouldn\'t have them. I hope this law gets passed','',0,'wA==','2fmjzcec',1,0,'',309,0,0),(4561,22,15,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1132223896,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thanks Discolisious. I\'m just wondering, would that be a complete meal? When you buy complete dog food you can be sure your dog gets all the necessary nutritients. Is this possible when making your own food for them? I don\'t think Sammy will ever want to eat the dry kibble so if possible I would like to feed him something he enjoys which is also healthy and meat free.','',0,'wA==','3w37yu11',1,0,'',309,0,0),(4564,22,15,19,0,'207.195.241.124',1132229938,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Things I put in it that I left out.  Nutritional yeast, brown rice, pasta, tons of carrots and sometime sweet potato.  Check out these sites:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.vegetariandogs.com/index.html#RECIPES\">http://www.vegetariandogs.com/index.html#RECIPES</a><!-- m -->\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.vegancats.com/pages/1138/Dog_Food_-_Home_Cooked.htm\">http://www.vegancats.com/pages/1138/Dog ... Cooked.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nThe second site has the home cooked food on sale <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nLes','',0,'wA==','3qcoffu5',1,0,'',19,0,0),(4567,477,19,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1132242682,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cheese, you are wrong.\nHB1911 does not say it is ilegal to keep dogs outside!\nI have copy of HOUSE BILL 1911 right here on my desk.\n&lt;&lt;Tethering and shelter for dogs.---A person commits a summary offense if the parson wantonly or cruelly tethers or pens a dog outside for a PERIOD EXCEEDING 16 CONSECUTIVE HOURS IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD.&gt;&gt;\n\nNow Cheese, who is cruel enough to chain dogs 24 hours day after day all year around?\nI thought you are against chaining dogs.\n\nBelieve me I am shy person but when I fight for animals, I am most aggresive and persistent person.\nI studied HOUSE BILL 1911 very carefully.\nI will include \n <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.unchainyourdog.org/\">http://www.unchainyourdog.org/</a><!-- m --> \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/home.html\">http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/home.html</a><!-- m -->\nto let people to know how cruel practice of chaining dogs is by sending letter to editor again (by using name of my friend who gave me permission) and I will attend the hearing concerning this HOUSE BILL 1911.\nThis is my promise.\nI will publicize the names of members in Judiciary committee who voted against  HB1911 on state wide newspapers  and let millions of readers to know how uncivilized  these politicians are.\nOf course they will lie to defend themselves but I  don\'t let them.\nCold blooded barbarians who don\'t believe in humane treatment of our companion animals have no business of staying in their office.\nMost of them are so corrupted and have many skeletons in their closet.','',0,'wA==','2wf6c63b',1,0,'',119,0,0),(4569,477,19,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1132243304,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Maisiepaisie, you are absolutely right!\nDogs who are chained to tree or dog house freeze to death in winter much less than in 16 hours and in summer time, many dogs die of heat.\nYes, it is very cruel to keep dogs chained or locked up in pens.','',0,'wA==','1v44wotc',1,0,'',119,0,0),(4573,22,15,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1132246919,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I totally believe that a dog and cat\'s diet should be meat free.  There are so many healthy vegetarian options out there for them.  For instance, we all know that fish (tuna, salmon) is littered with mercury. We would never put that in our bodies so why would we put that in our companion\'s bodies?  Speaking of Mercury, when I [b:2w87zocd]USED TO [/b:2w87zocd]eat fish I actually got tested for mercury poisoning.  They measure mercury on a scale of 0 - 25, zero being, of course, NO trace elements of mercury in your body and 25 being EXTREME amounts (high toxicity in your body).  I was 84.2\n\nEver since then I try to get people to not feed fish to their companion animals.  I would hate for them to go through what I went through.\n\nVegetarian is the way to go!','',0,'QA==','2w87zocd',1,0,'',124,0,0),(4574,477,19,51,0,'24.119.49.106',1132246919,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','violet, you quoted the same text as I did.  As I said, tethering (chaining) should be regulated.  The problem with the ammendment is it has a giant error.  If I have a large backyard that I put a fence around to contain my dog, it\'s considered a pen.  If my dog is in that pen for more than 16 consecutive hours, I\'m in violation of the law.  \n\nConsider this.  I walk my dog every afternoon when I get home from work and every evening before I go to bed.  He\'s an \"outside\" dog.\n\n5pm walk the dog\n9pm walk the dog\n7am play with my dog in the backyard\n8am go to work\n5pm get home and walk the dog.\n\nI\'m now a criminal.  Many dogs are far more comfortable outside than inside.  Would you prefer I keep my dog in the garage at night so as to avoid being fined?  Or perhaps I should kennel him in the laundry room at night if I don\'t have a garage?\n\nGet a better definition of a pen in the bill and perhaps I\'ll agree.  If you\'re talking about a 10x10 foot pen then yes, the dog should not be kept there for extended periods.  A 1 acre pen is a far different story.','',0,'QA==','2w87zocd',1,0,'',51,0,0),(4577,754,18,405,0,'152.163.100.65',1132254691,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','cigarettes','i am a smoker. i have been addicted since i was 14 and im 17 now. until now i havent even really wanted to quit but now i do and its very hard. i dont want comments about how bad it is or testing on animals ( i smoke american spirit) cus i already know so dont bother. i just want to hear form ex smokers about what they did to quit.','',0,'QA==','26u7nsky',1,0,'',405,0,0),(4579,754,18,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1132256061,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I never got properly addicted to smoking when I started it whilst in school but I can say what doesn\'t help is being around other smokers. Why not tell any smoking friends you are trying to give up and please will they not smoke around you. Real friends will not mind and who knows, it may give them the incentive to give up too. Good luck  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'QA==','1p1xbiyz',1,0,'',309,0,0),(4586,477,19,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1132257809,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Cheeseburger what evidence do you have when you say your dog prefers to be outside? I know someone else who says this but when the door is opened the dogs run in. IMO your dog spends to much time alone and leads a boring life. Why can\'t he be in your house? What is the weather like where you live? I mean do you get extreme temperatures of hot and cold?','',0,'QA==','20tphqu1',1,0,'',309,0,0),(4588,477,19,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1132258232,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Maisiepaisie...dont forget, Cheese is a hunter.  He probably brings his dog with him to go fetch his water fowl for him after he blasts the poor bird in the chest... so at least he gets some exercise then!','',0,'QA==','1bzfyc74',1,0,'',124,0,0),(4589,756,15,405,0,'152.163.100.65',1132258454,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','outside cats','okay, i know people are going to want to kill me for this but please listen.\n\ni have four cats. one of them stays inside because he is scared and basicly never leaves my parents room. the other three, Dolly, Shilou, and Morris go outside. they always have and they love it. if i dont let them out they cry. they have collors that break if they get caught on a fence, and bells to scare birds/mice. my cat Morris \"kills\" leaves and brings them home very proud. \n\ni undersand that there are risks involved with letting my cats outside, but i live in a very quiet devolopment where hardly any cars go by. \n\nthe problem is, i really can not refuse to let my cats outside. they would be miserable and i cant do that. \n\nso why would you tell me to keep them inside of all they are gonna do is look out the window, stand by the door and cry?\n\nhonest feedback is welcome','',0,'QA==','2a44h4h2',1,0,'',405,0,0),(4596,756,15,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1132259689,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Honstly Stefanie, by you having your cats roaming around outside you are again asking for trouble. My cousin did the same thing to her cat and her cat roamed onto a neighbours property where she came in contact with antifreeze.  I am sure you know the outcome of that.  It was NOT a nice death for that cat.\n\nNot only that, but there are people out there who catch these cats and sell them to labs.  There are also sick, demented people out there who like to \"experiement\" on them as well for kicks.  If I were you, I would put them on a leash (with you wtaching) and let them have a controlled roam rather than let them be free and end up suffering the consequences of it.\n\nJust my honest opinion.','',0,'QA==','2mf26o6s',1,0,'',124,0,0),(4599,756,15,405,0,'152.163.100.65',1132260551,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','thanks for your relpy. i know the risks i just feel os bad not letting them out. BUT i am going to fence in my yard because we are adopting a dog who is young and hyper and needs lots of running, so the kitties can go in there too.\n\ngood idea?','',0,'QA==','3mm26upm',1,0,'',405,0,0),(4600,477,19,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1132260722,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cheese, you keep your dog for hunting  and not as friend or companion right?\nDogs are social animals and keeping him/her isolated is very cruel.\nHow can you justify keeping your dog outdoor when temperature drop sharply and your dog start shivering?\nHow about hot summer day when temperature reach over 90 degree?\nWhere you live, weather stay nice and warm all year around?\nI don\'t think so.\nChaining dogs is not so much different from chaining a human child.\nDogs want to play and socialize with other dogs or people.\nChaining dogs itself is form of abuse.\nI know, you said you play with your dog but most people don\'t.\n\nMy dictionary tells me definition of \'pen\'  is cage but you are right Cheese, I must get better definition of pen on HB1911.','',0,'QA==','2lnsvcg9',1,0,'',119,0,0),(4601,756,15,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1132260933,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','What would make you feel worse....having a dead cat because it roamed onto the road and someone ran over it or went on someone else\'s property only to lick antifreeze or have someone get pissed off at it because it is crapping in their flower beds and fixing the problem himself (you get my drift) or keep it inside or on a leash in the yard where you know it is safe but having them cry occasionally because they dont have free reign?','',0,'QA==','2d1pmjzo',1,0,'',124,0,0),(4603,477,19,51,0,'24.119.49.106',1132263619,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;violet13&quot;:1vz88p4h]Cheese, you keep your dog for hunting  and not as friend or companion right?\nDogs are social animals and keeping him/her isolated is very cruel.\nHow can you justify keeping your dog outdoor when temperature drop sharply and your dog start shivering?\nHow about hot summer day when temperature reach over 90 degree?\nWhere you live, weather stay nice and warm all year around?\nI don\'t think so.\nChaining dogs is not so much different from chaining a human child.\nDogs want to play and socialize with other dogs or people.\nChaining dogs itself is form of abuse.\nI know, you said you play with your dog but most people don\'t.\n\nMy dictionary tells me definition of \'pen\'  is cage but you are right Cheese, I must get better definition of pen on HB1911.[/quote:1vz88p4h]\n\nI currently do not own a dog, but I\'ll address your assumptions anyways.\n\nDogs are social animals, which is why I think it\'s best to own 2 instead of 1.  When I did own dogs, I played with them daily and exercised them daily.  They were never isolated.  Most dog owners treat their dogs with respect and kindness, the few that don\'t are the ones making the news.\n\nWhen I did own dogs, they were northern breeds (malamute, husky).  They are not only comfortable in cold weather, but they also prefer it over warm weather.  Keeping them cool in summer was the hard part.  Mother nature provided them with thick fur to keep them warm in winter.  In southern climes during the summertime heat, no amount of shade will keep them properly cool.  Only aggresive grooming of their fur can do that.  This is why I sold my dogs when I relocated to Texas a few years ago.  Since returning to Idaho, I will most likely get a couple Siberians again.\n\nI\'m not a bird hunter.  I hunt big game to provide food for my family.  Dogs are not used in big game hunting, except for bear...which I do not hunt.\n\nAs for chaining, I don\'t know how many times I need to repeat myself.  I DO NOT AGREE with chaining dogs, never have, never will.  Using a leash in public is acceptable and preferred in most cases.\n\nThe bill in question would make most ethical and humane dog owners criminals.  It\'s written poorly and should be changed before approval.','',0,'gA==','1vz88p4h',1,0,'',51,0,0),(4609,756,15,405,0,'64.12.116.65',1132269752,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','how do cats react on a leash? i never tried that before, my cats have always gone outside my whole life.','',0,'gA==','3i4yt4vc',1,0,'',405,0,0),(4613,756,15,19,0,'207.195.241.124',1132278257,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I made a jungle inside for my cats.  They have edible plants, things to climb o and hide under.  A friend built the whole back of her house into a cattery for her cats.  She nailed wood on the walls to make a walkway for them, its most awesome.  I am trying to get that here <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','15uzd7a4',1,0,'',19,0,0),(4669,756,15,376,0,'83.172.205.8',1132411153,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: outside cats','[quote=&quot;Stefanie&quot;:1x8hqnet]okay, i know people are going to want to kill me for this[/quote:1x8hqnet]\n\nI think cats are made to roam. So I\'m not gonna kill you!!!\n\nI\'ve had cats all my life. They have all been outdoor cats. The only one I got who I tried to keep in (I lived on the 2nd floor of an apartment building), ran away and never came home - I think he hated his prison.\n\nNever will I force a cat to stay indoors unless circumstances call for it. A friend of mine has a three-legged cat. It falls over all the time and would never be able to defend itself even against another cat, so it would be cruel to let it wander the streets. This being said, I think a cat who is forced to stay indoors due to circumstances (like if you live in the middle of two busy highways where he is bound to get run over) is better for the cat than living his life in a cat shelter where he may be euthanised one day.','',0,'gA==','1x8hqnet',1,0,'',376,0,0),(4767,352,1,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1132685812,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','maisiepaisie, you are absolutely right.\nAnimal Welfare people are trying to enforce Humane Slaughter Act  but \nstill farm animals are butchered while they are still in full conscious and some chickens and pigs are thrown in boiling water alive and drowning to death because speed of turning live farm animals to pieces of meat is only concern and employees are forced to kill huge numbers of animals in very limited time.\nLink below is little outdated but operation of slaughterhouses is not so much imporved today.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.saplonline.org/Legislation/hsaresolution.htm\">http://www.saplonline.org/Legislation/hsaresolution.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','3fxeyrxc',1,0,'',119,0,0),(4887,756,15,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1132943273,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Stefanie...why not try the leash thing with your cats?  Use a body harness for them.  A long time ago, I used those body harnesses on one of my rabbits when I took him for walks and he didnt seem to mind.  It wouldnt hurt to try anyways.  Could save its life.','',0,'gA==','1rvirg10',1,0,'',124,0,0),(4891,756,15,372,0,'70.181.46.124',1132979807,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have tried the leash thing my cat flips out. However I do have a supervised area closed in where she can run and play. I also have a small \"jungle\" in my house for my cat. It needs some improvement though its not big enough. \n\nAlso dis a question all my cat does is dig up the plants and throw them on the floor any advice? I know cats need fresh greens like grass to chew but she keeps killing them.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','44w13tmi',1,0,'',372,0,0),(5457,352,1,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1135036254,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cheese, here is my question to you.\nIf you see a dog who is chained to tree in subzero weather when ground is covered with nothing but thick ice and snow and freezing wind is blowing 100 miles per hour.\nDog is slowly freezing to death but cruelty investigator is unable to come and rescue the dog.\nWhat would you do?\nDo you let dog to freeze to death or do you unchain dog and rescue him/her?\nI am speaking about dog who are owned by cold blooded animal hater who care less about animals.\n\nIf you let dog to freeze to death because only thing you think about is legal or illegal, I must call you heartless cruel person because we are dealing with life of innocent defenseless animals.\nWhen you speak about obeying the law, it means sometimes go against morality.\nDon\'t you have strong voice speaking to you inside of you for justice for animals?','',0,'gA==','2cdt4vld',1,0,'',119,0,0),(5461,352,1,51,0,'69.92.145.144',1135045465,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I wouldn\'t nessesarily wait until the wind reached 100 mph before I convinced the owner to care for his Dog or saw to it that animal control removed it.\n\nIn such a dire circumstance that you mention, I think anyone would intervene, but there are still legal ways to deal with it.  Good samaritan laws protect me if I rescue such an animal and take it to the authorities.  This is the legal remedy.\n\nThe problem with many ARA\'s is that they don\'t deliver rescued animals to the authorities.  Instead they either set them into the wild, or hide them away.  This is the illegal remedy.','',0,'gA==','2m6kkzyb',1,0,'',51,0,0),(5462,756,15,1,0,'68.96.127.98',1135046838,1,0,1,1,1,1,'veganlynne2001@yahoo.com','','hi sweetie ,  I live at canyon lake tex, I feed the deer , and all animals. I let my cats out side but they can run when they want. or when I livded in amarillo when my dad was still with us. I had a big cat runon my poarch.  frances, eddie lou little bits and her little girl frances could sit in sun and have fun. but they were protected from the street yet. right now my cat frances needs tx for a tumor one vet says with rene cassie herbal formular. I thought the food from nutra was ok. I am changing my cat food to wysong. I had screen in area for my cats here and they loved it. you can make it as big as you or your family wants. I got on alf site to see about stuff I heared a little about PETA putting some cats to sleep and putting them in dumpster?????? I hear people mad peta didnt try more find homes. I heared they pay peta takes in 29 million yr. yes we should take more to find them homes. but I rather put animal to sleep to go heavean  to be with Jesus than go drug lab. but I got my PETA card and will call the in morning . hon I wont yell at ya, I love animal all my life that is why I went on vegertain diet love and hugs veganLynne  great big kiss   please wvery tell me what you think about above I am old with sick cat and mom puter sucks','',0,'gA==','sq3v35po',1,0,'',1,0,0),(5466,756,15,309,0,'195.93.21.9',1135075217,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hi vegan Lyne. Glad to have you on the forum  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> There have been lots of discussions (and arguments) on this forum about PETA killing animals. Here is one of them  <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.webgroups.us/animalliberationfront/viewtopic.php?t=385\">http://www.webgroups.us/animalliberatio ... .php?t=385</a><!-- m -->\nIf you do a search on \'PETA\' you will find many more.','',0,'gA==','26eoq4fh',1,0,'',309,0,0),(5468,756,15,19,0,'207.195.240.142',1135080133,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','VeganAngel try putting a little pepper on the top of the soil.  that worked for almost all my cats...I ended up having to get some large stones (I got riverstones) on top of the soil.  They did stop throwing the plants on the floor, hehe.  Try also switching plant types...maybe she is sending you a message (although my cats were just doing it to see me work I beleive).  Try sprouts.  You can switch them up very easily and if the cat does not like them its only a few days until you have a different sprout.','',0,'gA==','37okt9m7',1,0,'',19,0,0),(5469,352,1,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1135081027,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If it was humans in a building kept in cages for some kind of xperiment it wouldnt be terrorism or aganst some law to break into that building and turn them folks loos and burn the building down they was kept in.But seeing as how its animals not humans being kept in cages its terrorism to break them out and its illegal to break into that building and free them.Its legal to put rabbits in clamps and spray perfum in their eyes to benefit people.But its illegal to tie a person down aganst its will and spray chemicals in its eyes for the benefit of people.Just cuz its law  dont make it rite.The laws was created by politicans elected by the human majority.That just means the majority of humans are narrow minded,blind and ignorant.\nThe law makers and enforcers calling the ALF and ELF terrorist are terrorist themselfs.\nPeople aint better then other animals,we just think we are.','',0,'gA==','2bgxm9wx',1,0,'',454,0,0),(5470,352,1,105,0,'62.254.0.56',1135081911,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I  could\'nt have put that better myself, well said KRITER.','',0,'gA==','nfylbxpq',1,0,'',105,0,0),(5471,352,1,309,0,'195.93.21.9',1135086506,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I often wish that aliens of a higher intelligence would come here and capture humans for experimentation. Now by the animal researchers standards, the aliens would not be doing anything wrong. After all because the aliens are more intelligent, they must be more important, right? At least it would make these assholes think about what they are doing, especially if themselves or their family were held captive and tortured.','',0,'gA==','2crtzmes',1,0,'',309,0,0),(5472,352,1,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1135090012,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Cuz of how I live and wair I live I see lots of wild critters.I can sit in my yard and see a rabbit pushing his nose across some grass and picking out somthing to eat.I see deer down by the streem doing the same thing and a couple turkey hens walking thru a small clearing and squirrel barking and chasing each other thru the trees.All they want to do is play,eat,do their chores and house work.They dont cut all the trees down,they dont need highways,cars,shoping malls,subdivisions,WalMarts,they dont hav wars or religion.They aint trying to distroy the very planet they need to live.I reckon thats what makes them so dum.','',0,'gA==','3mxe2kz1',1,0,'',454,0,0),(5478,756,15,372,0,'70.181.47.204',1135105254,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I never thought of sprouts I had been using wheat grass and she eats it she just has fun uprooting it. She also enjoys batting the dirt around LOL!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1kfpp7j0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(5482,352,1,111,0,'84.255.197.171',1135171240,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:2bnodsjd]I often wish that aliens of a higher intelligence would come here and capture humans for experimentation.[/quote:2bnodsjd]\nYeah, me too. Sadly, if aliens would come here, stupid humans would capture one of them for experimentation. I hope humanity will evolve to something like humanity in Star Trek franchise. I\'m a big fan of Star Trek (for those who don\'t know Star Trek: Star Trek envisions future, where humans live in a perfect society, people don\'t eat animal products (but they use \"replicator\" to syntesize \"meat\" dishes, synthetic alcohol \"synthol\", ...), crime is almost nonexistent, there\'s no money,... There\'s also plenty of episodes that are related to AR issues, like a Voyager\'s Hirogen hunters <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirogen\">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirogen</a><!-- m --> which are presented very negatively. There\'s also a parody against capitalism (see Ferengi, with very funny \"Rules of Acquisition\" <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.dmwright.com/html/ferengi.htm\">http://www.dmwright.com/html/ferengi.htm</a><!-- m --> )).','',0,'gA==','2bnodsjd',1,0,'',111,0,0),(5484,352,1,376,0,'83.172.209.244',1135203406,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Speaking of aliens, this reminds me of what HG Wells said when he wrote his book \"The War of the Worlds\" (forget the movie... read the book!) He said: \n\n[i:3tnkvewu]\"And before we judge them [the aliens] too harshly, we must remember what ruthless and utter destruction our own species has wrought, not only upon animals, such as the vanished bison and the dodo, but upon its own inferior races. The Tasmanians, in spite of their human likeness, were entirely swept out of existence in a war of extermination waged by European immigrants, in the space of fifty years. Are we such apostles of mercy as to complain if the Martians warred in the same spirit?\" - Chapter I The Eve of the War. [/i:3tnkvewu]\n\nAnd this was in 1898!!! We have not advanced very far. \n\nThere is really something rotten in the State of Denmark.','',0,'IA==','3tnkvewu',1,0,'',376,0,0),(5488,352,1,105,0,'62.254.0.56',1135253359,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:24zp9fr0]Cuz of how I live and wair I live I see lots of wild critters.I can sit in my yard and see a rabbit pushing his nose across some grass and picking out somthing to eat.I see deer down by the streem doing the same thing and a couple turkey hens walking thru a small clearing and squirrel barking and chasing each other thru the trees.All they want to do is play,eat,do their chores and house work.They dont cut all the trees down,they dont need highways,cars,shoping malls,subdivisions,WalMarts,they dont hav wars or religion.They aint trying to distroy the very planet they need to live.I reckon thats what makes them so dum.[/quote:24zp9fr0] Are their any shops where you live do they cater for vegans or do you just eat natural food you have grown, it must be harder for you than us living in the towns and cities','',0,'gA==','24zp9fr0',1,0,'',105,0,0),(5489,352,1,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1135262495,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Theres a regular grocery store about 10 miles away.Theres a very small amount of vegan safe food there along with vegetables.Theres a natural/health food store close to my job and somtimes I hav to go to town cuz of my job so I stop at the vegan frendly stores if Im needing somthing.My frezer is very small.So Im not able to store enuff in it for the winter.\nIt aint that hard.','',0,'gA==','1uilfpcj',1,0,'',454,0,0),(5513,392,19,467,0,'66.234.45.89',1135477092,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;licrow&quot;:1jvn18hg]Snakes are MUCH happier in the wild than they could ever be caged. Explain to him that buying a snake is supporting the misery of more snakes that they\'ll purchase with the money you spend saving one. Try also telling him how absolutely miserable and terrifying it is for the mice, bred in captivity, held in overcrowded cages, and if they survive they are then trapped in a tiny space with no place to hide until they are swallowed alive by a massive predator. In the wild, a mouse would have a fighting chance. Snakes cannot be vegitarian because they won\'t eat anything that doesn\'t move.[/quote:1jvn18hg]\n\nFalse. Snakes don\'t move all that much in the wild. They only move for food and mates. Most of the time they prefer to be in a cramped hiding area where they feel safe.\n\nAs far as mice, most responsible keepers these days feed frozen thawed mice. These are killed as humanely as possible with carbon dioxide. As far as snakes needing to eat prey that moves...that is not true. There are a lot of snakes who have been kept in captivity and fed frozen/thawed prey that will just take it lying down and some can even be hand fed. They just want it to be warm and that\'s why you use hot water in thawing.\n\nAs far as vegeterian...well, I would think it might be possible but would require a lot of research and effort. I don\'t think any company is concerned in spending their research money on developing a solution. The modern snake keeper hobby is actually miles away from the live mice in the cage. That\'s only done by irresponsible keepers.\n\nOh and snakes kills their prey anyway, so no one\'s getting swallowed alive. That\'s why they are constrictors. \n\nI just felt this disinformation was inappropriate. I am vegeterian and love animals but as of now, there is no other way for snakes to get their nutrion, however, they do make great pets.','',0,'gA==','1jvn18hg',1,0,'',467,0,0),(5518,392,19,372,0,'70.181.47.204',1135487052,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hi Roger,\n\nI can understand you not wanting a pet snake I wouldnt either, but if you do decide to one option is petfinder.com you can lookl for a specialized animal to rescue that will wuite possibly be killed if not adopted. At least that way you are not supporting irresponsible breeding habits. As for feeding I can offer no advice as I know very little about snakes.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2e204z10',1,0,'',372,0,0),(5539,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1135648097,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','How do you view people who wear fur coats?','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.furisdead.com/feat-dogcatfur.asp\">http://www.furisdead.com/feat-dogcatfur.asp</a><!-- m -->\n\nWhat do you think about people who wear fur coats?\n1. sadists.\n2. ignorant people.\n3. immoral uncivilized people.\n4. beautiful hearted people. (please don\'t laugh because some very strange people think people who wear fur are beautiful hearted people when their mother and sister wear fur coats.)\n\nIn old days, many women wore fur coats without knowing how animals are tortured to death to make it but today, almost everybody knows about brutality in fur farms.\nI have very hard time to understand people who wear fur coats without any shame.\nHow about you?','',0,'gA==','3qykhw2u',1,0,'',119,0,0),(5544,844,5,372,0,'70.181.47.204',1135655309,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','5. vain, shallow, rich, uppity bitches\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','154civdq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(5549,844,5,376,0,'212.74.167.219',1135680704,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','In Switzerland where I live, lots of people wear fur coats. (Swiss people are a most peculiar race!!). It\'s pretty sickening. My son is in a snooty private school (for education reasons, not because we\'re snooty!) and I have to keep my cool there!!!! On my car though are anti-fur stickers which sort of jars with the atmosphere at the school... and I have noticed people pretending NOT to see them!\n\nOf course, many times I cannot keep my mouth shut. There seem to be three categories I\'ve come across when up in town:\n\n1) Sweet little old widows who tell me that their husbands bought them the coat many years ago, and they continue to wear it, but that they would not choose to buy a new one. (I do not get angry with these sweet old ladies - they speak of their dead husbands with such longing....)  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> \n\n2) Rich-bitch-snobs who couldn\'t give a damn about animals being killed and would probably watch it being done without a shiver down their spine. These kind I wish I could shove into a gutter and pour excrement over them until they are covered in it. Apparently that is illegal?????  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: --> \n\n3) Some people who are absolutely clueless. You tell them about fur farming and they look at you with glazed eyes and a sort of a big question mark in their eyes. You could very well be telling them that the aliens have landed, it would make no difference. These are the people who seem to have a lack of brain-cells. However, I think that amongst this category there are a number who would be able to be educated, so I try and not get TOO nasty with them. You need to talk to them a bit slowly though... and just hope that in time something will penetrate their thick skulls.  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: -->','',0,'gA==','1lk3z8lo',1,0,'',376,0,0),(5551,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1135686345,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','When everytime I see people with fur coats, I say loudly \"Innocent animals are torture to death to make fur coat!\"   but these days, I only see one or two in crowded shopping mall around Christmas season.\nMy advice to people is don\'t trust people who wear fur coats without shame because these people are lacking conscience and do anything for $$$$$$$$$.\nIn my opinion, fur is not status symbol but sadist symbol because almost everybody knows about how fur coats are made.\nPeople show their degradation by wearing fur.\nIt takes person with corrupted mind to put on fur coat knowing chilling brutalities in process of making fur coats and trims.\nWe are what we WEAR.','',0,'gA==','3l393hj3',1,0,'',119,0,0),(5556,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.9',1135691948,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','My group are still doing weekly demos outside Kurt Geiger, a shoe store selling Mukluk boots made of rabbit fur. We shout outside the shop and try to persuade people not to go in. Whenever someone walks past wearing fur my voice goes louder as I shout \"Civilised people do not wear fur. Only nasty disgusting evil people wear fur.\"','',0,'gA==','11xtai9j',1,0,'',309,0,0),(5581,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1135713516,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Maisiepaisie, fur is sadist symbol and I don\'t consider people who wear fur coats as human because these people care less about how animals are tortured to death to make fur coats they are wearing.','',0,'gA==','3vdgi440',1,0,'',119,0,0),(5781,844,5,487,0,'202.180.83.7',1136807051,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:bs2zrv1p]how do you view people who wear fur coats?[/quote:bs2zrv1p]\n\nI view them clearly with my nightvision scope on my lightweight sniper rifle <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'gA==','bs2zrv1p',1,0,'',487,0,0),(5787,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.99',1136817491,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Inciter&quot;:2zfgb4b5][quote:2zfgb4b5]how do you view people who wear fur coats?[/quote:2zfgb4b5]\n\nI view them clearly with my nightvision scope on my lightweight sniper rifle <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->[/quote:2zfgb4b5]Inciter you rock!!  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','2zfgb4b5',1,0,'',309,0,0),(5798,844,5,393,0,'162.84.226.209',1136864054,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I in no way can understand people who wear fur. Its all about status and stupidity. I see them as heartless evil people who should be skinned alive themselves...damn they make me so angry.','',0,'gA==','hwbenxwc',1,0,'',393,0,0),(5805,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.9',1136897895,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Has anyone here from the UK been watching Big Brother? Pete Burns may face jail for wearing a gorilla skin fur coat\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://channels.aolsvc.co.uk/ents/article.adp?id=20060109113309990001\">http://channels.aolsvc.co.uk/ents/artic ... 3309990001</a><!-- m -->\nThat guy won\'t last five minutes in a mens jail looking the way he does. Maybe someone will give him a taste of what the poor animals go through to make fur coats. I wish we could put all fur wearers in jail.','',0,'gA==','1dbzk0tt',1,0,'',309,0,0),(5808,844,5,376,0,'83.172.205.92',1136910166,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I don\'t see Big Brother in Switzerland.\n\nThe link you gave doesn\'t seem to work, Maisie. Here\'s another one:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=40822006\">http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=40822006</a><!-- m -->\n\nI think if this guy got a prison sentence for wearing a gorilla coat, it will just make him more famous. :-(\n\nWhat a disgusting thing to wear. If he doesn\'t get a prison sentence, I hope when he gets out of the House, I hope he will be harrassed sufficiently by AR people so that he donates BIG TIME money to a foundation that is doing work for this endangered species.\n\nBloody idiot.','',0,'gA==','33o3l5c1',1,0,'',376,0,0),(5809,844,5,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1136910908,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Is there a penality to take his skin? He should be indanger.','',0,'gA==','gub8n8hp',1,0,'',454,0,0),(5869,880,15,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1137043261,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Was Jesus vegan?','There is no way for me to deny existence of Jesus after I experienced wonderful miracles but I am not sure exactly what Jesus ate when HE was on earth with flesh and blood.\nSome people think He ate fish and meat but I don\'t think so.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://universal-life.cc/english/animals/Hidden_Love_of_Jesus_For_The_Animals_Layout.htm\">http://universal-life.cc/english/animal ... Layout.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','1c7p21eh',1,0,'',119,0,0),(5878,880,15,372,0,'70.181.47.204',1137050106,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cool page but way to long to read.\n\nJust another interesting insight don;t know if it was on that page or not it was to long and I am to lazy :-)\n\nMany people point to miracle of the fish and loaves to prove he ate meat.\n\nFact the symbols for fish and fishweed are almost identical a slight smudge could make the difference.\n\nFishermen commonly ate fishweed a type of seaweed that provide more nutrient than the fish and did not cut into their profits. It would have been more natural for them to eat fishweed than fish.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2p33ne1j',1,0,'',372,0,0),(5884,880,15,376,0,'83.172.205.92',1137074155,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','violet: No-one will ever able to prove whether he was or he wasn\'t. So it\'s just always going to someone\'s word against another\'s.\n\nBut if he was from the Essenian community, then he most definitely was. The Essenes ate nothing from an animal.\n\nDo I believe he was an Essene? Definitely.\n\nBut I may be wrong...','',0,'gA==','1j86o4zz',1,0,'',376,0,0),(5891,880,15,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1137078379,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I know this issue is heavily debated.  Here\'s the way I feel.  Maybe God intended for us to eat animals, maybe he did not.  Either way, I feel that He would frown on todays factory farms and slaughterhouses.  I can not imagine that He would want any of His creatures to suffer that way.  That\'s just my own thoughts.','',0,'gA==','u2gb2pug',1,0,'',444,0,0),(5923,756,15,254,0,'82.25.47.25',1137150450,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','This was the animal LIBERATION front website last time I checked, your cat should be free to roam, people shouldnt get cats if they intend to keep them locked up for the duration of its existence. Fair enough if the cat is going to be put down if no home is found for it and the area you live in is not safe for it to go outdoors, ..........but the way I think of it is that I would rather be dead than subjected to a life in my house, it would drive me crazy.\n\n Any animal which is locked up in a confined space will always show abnormal behaviour.','',0,'gA==','2s4zul4k',1,0,'',254,0,0),(5926,756,15,19,0,'207.195.242.154',1137154287,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','.  Why risk an animal roaming free to be killed when you know you can keep him/her safe inside?  If you really feel the need to let your companoin cat outdoors, why not work on a harness system so you could assure his safety...like you walk him and go with him.  You may think going out unattended is safe, but you never know what will happen, a random person could be driving by and hit them or pick them up (for abuse, bunching, bait, whatever), a dog or other animal could decide that kitty looks like a tasty snack, a kitty with a transferable disease could infect your kitty, anything could happen and no place is safe.  How are you being a responsable guardian if you take chances where lives are concerned?\n\nIf you beleive house dwelling is so terrible (and I am not saying I disagree) you should invest your effort into spay and neuter.  The cat population needs a good halting.','',0,'gA==','9ip46v3t',1,0,'',19,0,0),(5937,756,15,254,0,'82.25.47.25',1137170856,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','we take chances everyday of our lives, we cant stop them all otherwise it would be ridiculous., and the same goes for our animals...............and to put a cat on a leash is cruel and absurd','',0,'gA==','s1ymemb4',1,0,'',254,0,0),(5939,756,15,19,0,'207.195.242.154',1137172576,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Really?  Cruel and absurd?  \n\nI was just offering a solution to you.  I don\'t think it is cruel and absurd as long as Kitty is comfortable on a leash.  I know lots of people that walk their cats, and the cats are thankful.  \n\nWhat I think is cruel and absurd is the fact that the domestic \'pet\' population is out of control and we are even having a discussion like this.  Do something for future kitties, spay and neuter all that you can.','',0,'gA==','3p617kke',1,0,'',19,0,0),(5942,756,15,488,0,'152.163.100.65',1137174677,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','my dogs stay in a kennal in my barn, I let them out and they stay around the house, I live in a rural area so i dont have to worry about them getting into a neighbors yard or anything, I dont own cats but there are a few strays that have taken up at the barn, there great for mice controll in the feed room and the dogs dont bother them unless they get there kennels. I say as long as you keep them on your property_ let them be where there the happiest.','',0,'gA==','1k3exnth',1,0,'',488,0,0),(5951,756,15,254,0,'82.25.47.25',1137232833,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Disco yep I agree, we do need to concentrate more on spaying and neutering.\n\n......you sound like a lovely guy [b:tv6b9ua7]midnight[/b:tv6b9ua7],  you really do.................seriously whats the point in keeping a pet if you are not going to give it love and affection.......dogs crave affection, and no matter how badly you treat them they still love you.........midnight tell me whats the point in having a pet?? keeping it outside in a kennel!!! tell me where the affection is in that please!','',0,'QA==','tv6b9ua7',1,0,'',254,0,0),(5957,756,15,488,0,'152.163.100.65',1137251118,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Blue and red heelers are cattle dogs-they are outside dogs_  they are extremly protective of there owner / caretaker.  if there are visitors here that arenervious of dogs or im shoeing horses i shut them up.  If there out there with me, some horses get really nervous if theres dogs around there feet, makes it real hard to shoe them if there freakin over the dogs. also I have an elderly couple that  are regular visitors  from a big city, they come over to watch us work horses or just to spend time around the animals, but the lady was bitten by a stray in her back yard some time back. no matter how much i reassure her she wont go near the barn if the dogs are loose. other than that they run loose , they are fed in the kennel, so thats where they\" live\". but if im checking cows they go with me and my horse every step of the way, they are great companions, and are like one of my family. my oldest dog \"Trixie\" does come in the house_ altho my girlfreind dosent like it, Trixie is actually laying beside my feet as im typing this. \n I value my dogs higly as they have saved me a lot of steps catching cattle, they have saved my life once, and they even penned a would be burgular in the woods out back on night,.\nso don\'t think im such an ass just because my dogs stay in  or around the kennels, they have more lukury than you think, they go with us everywhere.','',0,'QA==','38xiwc0k',1,0,'',488,0,0),(6014,756,15,160,0,'65.102.5.160',1137480430,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[b:2d6ishb2]I have five cats whom are all rescues and they all stay indoors 24/7 I have lots of kitty toy\'s and furniture to keep them happy and I know my cats are safe and sound and plus indoor cats live a much longer and healthier life proven fact <!-- s:heart: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_syda.gif\" alt=\":heart:\" title=\"heart\" /><!-- s:heart: --> ,Janine[/b:2d6ishb2]','',0,'QA==','2d6ishb2',1,0,'',160,0,0),(6036,756,15,488,0,'205.188.116.11',1137545719,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I bend the rules once in a while and let my oldest dog inside, BUT she knows to stay off furniture and to go to the door when she needs to go out,\n I like having her inside once in a while, and im training the other dogs on inside manners. \n When my girlfreind first moved in though she had a cat, it was old so it had to be insid all the time. \n My question is : how do you deal with the mess? I cant stand to have pet hair every where.','',0,'QA==','3fvlyq56',1,0,'',488,0,0),(6044,756,15,372,0,'70.188.131.183',1137558163,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','regular brushing cuts it down a great deal\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QA==','1lflptxs',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6045,756,15,19,0,'207.195.240.248',1137562427,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Veganangel is right.  Brushing, grooming, and vaccuming (including the furnature).  I like to let the animals on the furnature.  I want them on \'my level\'.  If I go to someones home and the animals are not allowed on the furnature I sit on the floor.  I am no better than they are.','',0,'QA==','1jsno66g',1,0,'',19,0,0),(6049,756,15,488,0,'64.12.116.198',1137575118,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The dogs arent that bad, heelers have corse hair. they dont seem to shed that much, but ive told her no more inside cats. No matter how much we cleaned there was cat hair everywhere.','',0,'QA==','161wxmtf',1,0,'',488,0,0),(6185,844,5,505,0,'82.38.246.133',1138162336,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','the thing that annoys me is those who campaign against furr, like celebrities etc but still wear leather and eat dairy..makes no sense to me','',0,'QA==','1ulgzkru',1,0,'',505,0,0),(6202,844,5,488,0,'152.163.101.11',1138241971,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','your gonna think im two faced but i am aginst fur farming, I am however for the family farmer and do support farming ( non-industrialized ). I am also a meat eater and consume my share of dairy.','',0,'QA==','tc95s192',1,0,'',488,0,0),(6222,844,5,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1138291003,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Midnightrider&quot;:3sv9wkbl]your gonna think im two faced but i am aginst fur farming, I am however for the family farmer and do support farming ( non-industrialized ). I am also a meat eater and consume my share of dairy.[/quote:3sv9wkbl]\nFarming does not impy killing, so I\'m not sure what are you trying to say - perhaps eating meat affects one\'s brain (have you been tested for mad cow dieses recently?)','',0,'gA==','3sv9wkbl',1,0,'',111,0,0),(6224,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1138291601,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;lil_miss_tashwa&quot;:23dficpm]the thing that annoys me is those who campaign against furr, like celebrities etc but still wear leather and eat dairy..makes no sense to me[/quote:23dficpm]I agree that wearing leather is as bad as wearing fur. Someone asked me at a demo recently, what is the difference between wearing fur and wearing leather? I told him that in my opinion there is no difference as leather is equally cruel. Its just that we can get a better response from the public when we campaign against fur but if we protested about leather people would just laugh. Leather is everywhere and can be bought in every shoe shop. Its beyond me how people can have compassion for furry creatures but don\'t give a damn about the unimaginable suffering inflicted on cows. Ok they\'re not as small and cute but that doesn\'t mean its ok to torture them. The leather industry is the same as the meat and dairy industries. They are all interwined and dependant on each other. Supporting any one of these cruel industries supports them all.','',0,'gA==','23dficpm',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6225,844,5,488,0,'152.163.100.67',1138291813,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;FreeQ&quot;:32wy9r9a][quote=&quot;Midnightrider&quot;:32wy9r9a]your gonna think im two faced but i am aginst fur farming, I am however for the family farmer and do support farming ( non-industrialized ). I am also a meat eater and consume my share of dairy.[/quote:32wy9r9a]\nFarming does not impy killing, so I\'m not sure what are you trying to say - perhaps eating meat affects one\'s brain (have you been tested for mad cow dieses recently?)[/quote:32wy9r9a]\n\n\n  <!-- s:moon: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_butt.gif\" alt=\":moon:\" title=\"moon\" /><!-- s:moon: --> mabe i better say fur farming and killing just for fur so that those of yu who are simple minded--freeq--can understand. there is nothing wrong with my brain- i dont have mad cow . <!-- s:moon: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_butt.gif\" alt=\":moon:\" title=\"moon\" /><!-- s:moon: -->','',0,'gA==','32wy9r9a',1,0,'',488,0,0),(6233,844,5,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1138297448,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','How do I view skanks who wear fur?  I hate them with a passion.  I think they are narrow minded, conceited, selfish, arrogant, think their shit dont stink asinine cum-wads who should be teathered to a tree and ripped of their own skin.  When I see a fur-wearer, my blood must truly boil.  One of these days I will truly pay for my hatred.  oh oh!!','',0,'gA==','2iy0tv9x',1,0,'',124,0,0),(6242,844,5,488,0,'152.163.100.199',1138322770,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','what about leather and other products from by products of animals?','',0,'gA==','1kvasndo',1,0,'',488,0,0),(6253,844,5,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1138362572,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Its rong using any kind of animal skin or animal skin by product.','',0,'gA==','3ohgidlu',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6271,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1138490429,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Midnightrider, I am gland to know that least you are against factory farms but what family owned dairy farmers do to newborn male calves?','',0,'gA==','100imjp7',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6272,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1138490813,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','To be honest, I am very afraid of people who wear fur coats and I never trust them.\nPeople without conscience can do anything without feeling guilt and there is no way for people with conscience to buy and wear fur coats knowing how animals are tortured to death for vanity.','',0,'gA==','2ublgg0t',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6276,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1138534458,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Here in the UK a lot of people are wearing fur pom pom scarves. These scarves can be bought for around £8 from markets and street traders and they are not labelled as fur. They are in fact made from rabbit fur. I tell people who I see wearing one as I think most people are unaware that something so cheap could be real fur.','',0,'gA==','2ckgfy1r',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6295,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1138754461,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Dairy farmers don\'t want let people to know about little dirty secret of dairy farms where new born male calves are thrown in dead pile alive and freeze to death or starve to death when they know that they cannot make any profit.\nRemember true story of Andy and Mario?\nAndy and Mario represent millions of new born male calves.\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.farmsanctuary.org/media/pr_mario.htm\">http://www.farmsanctuary.org/media/pr_mario.htm</a><!-- m -->\nAndy was thrown in dead pile alive to let him starve to death too!','',0,'gA==','bh6om1qh',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6297,844,5,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1138794817,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Male calfs born in dairy factory farms are also took from the mother rite after birth and used to make veal.','',0,'gA==','2yrs9w7i',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6302,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1138810351,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','KRITER, I know small numbers of male calves are turning to veal but when shipping cost to send  these newborn male calves to veal factory is higher than cost of veal, dairy farmers kill these babies in most horrible ways without spending a penny.\nMost people don\'t eat veal knowing chilling brutalities in veal factory therefore newborn calves who are turning to veal are not many.\nNobody wants to speak about little dirty secret of dairy farms.\nI asked many dairy farmers about what they do with male calves but nobody gave me answer because reality in dairy farms are too heartbreaking.','',0,'gA==','2f29magk',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6309,844,5,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1138819891,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Most folks I come across dont kno about the littl secrets about dairy farms or anyother farms.They dont want to kno or they dont care.I had a display with a frend last summer ,at a watered down environmental conference, about the meat and fur industry.Information about factory farms and whats done to male calfs and  alot other information about meat and its relation to hurting the environment.Folks come up to my frend and yelled at her saying we was rong about everything. I wish I knu more folks who realized or even give a dam what happens to male calfs at the dairy farms they support.','',0,'gA==','1tu069lp',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6322,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1138909104,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Dairy farmers keep their mouth tightly shut about little dirty secret of dairy farms and most people are very ignorant about chilling brutalities in dairy farms and continue to consuming dairy products to maximaize suffering of cows and their calves.\nIf dairy farmers euthanise every male calf they have, there is no profit to make that is why little dirty secret of dairy farms exist.','',0,'gA==','3m2e95uy',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6328,844,5,393,0,'162.84.223.96',1138939377,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think people who wear fur are stupid and selfish. They make me so angry it is very hard to put into words.\n\nYesterday I went to a show on Broadway, and a woman in front of me was wearing a mink coat. So during intermission when she went to the bathroom, I stuck a sticker of the back of her coat that says \"I\'m an asshole. I wear fur.\"\n\nYes, I am [i:1yerxhyl]that[/i:1yerxhyl] cool.','',0,'IA==','1yerxhyl',1,0,'',393,0,0),(6329,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1138947480,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','stoptheabuse659, how about \'I am sadist that is why I wear fur\'?','',0,'IA==','3ehf0ol8',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6332,844,5,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1138968612,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;stoptheabuse659&quot;:11rnld8g]I think people who wear fur are stupid and selfish. They make me so angry it is very hard to put into words.\n\nYesterday I went to a show on Broadway, and a woman in front of me was wearing a mink coat. So during intermission when she went to the bathroom, I stuck a sticker of the back of her coat that says \"I\'m an asshole. I wear fur.\"\n\nYes, I am that cool.[/quote:11rnld8g]\n\n\nYes you are.Do you kno how I can get them kinds of stikers and Im needing some anti meat stikers.Iv got a few from PETA but would be good if I got some alittl more like yours.','',0,'gA==','11rnld8g',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6344,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1139238951,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;stoptheabuse659&quot;:2hg4yjgf]I think people who wear fur are stupid and selfish. They make me so angry it is very hard to put into words.\n\nYesterday I went to a show on Broadway, and a woman in front of me was wearing a mink coat. So during intermission when she went to the bathroom, I stuck a sticker of the back of her coat that says \"I\'m an asshole. I wear fur.\"\n\nYes, I am [i:2hg4yjgf]that[/i:2hg4yjgf] cool.[/quote:2hg4yjgf]Nice one!! That is cool  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'oA==','2hg4yjgf',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6417,933,22,529,0,'82.44.91.61',1139929735,1,0,0,0,1,0,'','what is the alf view on euthnasia (sic)','if an animal is ill to the point where it cannot be cured and is in constant pain, does it have a right to euthnasia.  if so do humans have that right as well?','',0,'oA==','35sjz6e1',1,0,'',529,0,0),(6422,933,22,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1139960154,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I beleive that both human animals and non human animals do have that right.  Of course no one deserves to suffer.','',0,'oA==','1gr4zpq1',1,0,'',19,0,0),(6448,844,5,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140093727,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It is very interesting to know that all livestock farmers tell us how well they treat their farm animals but when I question about treatment of newborn male calves, they keep silence.\nI e-mailed to dairy farmer who was telling people about his supposedly humane treatment of dairy cows and calves.\nGuess what?\nAs soon as I asked about what he does with newborn male calves, he stop answering me and ignored my question completely.\nI guess he could not tell ugly secret of dairy farms where newborn male calves are dumped in dead pile alive and let them freeze to death or starve to death.\nRobert Cohen has website to educate people about dairy products and he is telling people about horror in dairy farms titled \'how to kill baby cow\'.\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://notmilk.com/killacalf.html\">http://notmilk.com/killacalf.html</a><!-- m -->\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.notmilk.com\">www.notmilk.com</a><!-- w -->','',0,'oA==','3upsbkl5',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6456,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140155858,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','How many of you support death sentence for animal killer?','I am just curious.\nHow many of you strongly support death sentence of animal killers if law allow it?\nI don\'t take chance of going to jail for sadistic bastard,  but if execution of animal killers is allowed by law, I strongly support it because most serial killers started to torture animals and worked on people.\nOf course I make an exception of people who repent and live his(or her) life to reflect sincerity.\nWhat made me to think about execution of animal killers?\nI got so disgusted to see cock fighters in New Mexico who get enjoyment by looking at chilling brutality.\nCock fighters, dog fighters, bull fighters are not normal people with human feeling.\nWho need these sick minded people to inflict unimaginable pain and suffering to animals?\nMostly like these bastards breed like fleas and roaches.\nWhat is best way to maximize penalty of animal abusers and killers do you think?\nWhich state of our country has heaviest penalty for animal abusers and killers?\nI am interested to do research on law of state where people have most strict law to protect sentient creatures.\nOf course law is meaningless without enfocement but we must start with first thing first.','',0,'oA==','1o0esrs6',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6457,936,3,372,0,'70.181.47.55',1140159665,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Violet,\n\nYou know my idea already on this from a previous discussion. Why waste good labor force. Ball, chains, and shackles menial labor. Conditions equivalent to what vivesectors keep monkeys in. The only amenity I give them is a healthy vegan diet. That quite possibly would piss them off more than mere death.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'oA==','7x9ofa4d',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6458,936,3,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1140173455,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree with VeganAngel. I strongly oppose death penalty for any crime. Not because nobody deserves to die (many do), but beceuse every system makes mistakes and sooner or later an innocent person will be executed. Now imagine the suffering of innocent person on a death row: sadistic guards telling you how much fun they will have watching you die, people cheering for your death, and endless waiting for that final horrifying moment.\n\nIt\'s statistically probable that some innocent people have already been executed. Death penalty is barbaric and should be outlawed everywhere in the world. I do support much longer prison sentences for animal abusers. In my country the longest sentence for animal abuse is three months.','',0,'oA==','32lgaxae',1,0,'',111,0,0),(6459,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1140179642,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree death is the easy way out.But kill the sumbitchs anyway.Its only people.If they found inocent later its to bad.They dont think about things like this when healthy,happy criters are killed at shelters and dog pounds cuz theres no room or enuff money or they aint adoptable.People shud be treated like them criters are treated.Do they kill kids in orphanages  cuz they aint adoptable?\nFolks puting on cockfites shud be put away or be ded.\nA good while ago in a local nature area some Canadan geese was found ded.They all been shot like they was target practice.Read about it at work during lunch and mentioned it.A couple dudes said \"so what they just geese,who gives a shit\".I reckon I got a attitude like that toward humans.','',0,'oA==','2pusaonz',1,1140612163,'',454,2,0),(6460,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140189734,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.sniksnak.com/ac/connection.html\">http://www.sniksnak.com/ac/connection.html</a><!-- m -->\nHow about horrible way innocent defenseless animals were killed for sadistic enjoyment?\nWhere is justice for these animals?\nIf somebody drowned to death your faithful dog who saved your life from burning house, do you still feel it is wrong to execute this animal killer?','',0,'oA==','38rp0lrz',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6461,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1140191308,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;violet13&quot;:32a8t8ev]http://www.sniksnak.com/ac/connection.html\nHow about horrible way innocent defenseless animals were killed for sadistic enjoyment?\nWhere is justice for these animals?\nIf somebody drowned to death your faithful dog who saved your life from burning house, do you still feel it is wrong to execute this animal killer?\n\n[/quote:32a8t8ev]\n\n\nI dont feel its rong.Xecute the sumbitch','',0,'gA==','32a8t8ev',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6462,936,3,376,0,'83.172.210.200',1140195141,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','In most developed countries, the death penalty has been abolished a long time ago, as it is considered barbaric.','',0,'gA==','297gxy5o',1,0,'',376,0,0),(6463,936,3,275,0,'70.30.70.142',1140195163,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:1vmbz68h]I am just curious. \nHow many of you strongly support death sentence of animal killers if law allow it? [/quote:1vmbz68h]\n\nViolet13,\n\nI am against the death penalty unless the person i.e. confesses when not under diress, videotapes the crime etc. In other words until it\'s proven beyond a doubt (e.g.on tape). The reason is many poor people have no access to adequate legal defence, and can be used as a scapegoat for an elected prosecutor or a mayor. O.J. Simpson IMO, is a good example of how the system is imperfect.\n\nAbout trends in laws globally, towards animal rights ( the second part of your question). i looked around a bit and Germany seems to be the most progressive. There\'s a website owned (I think) by the lab research industry or people who invest in biotech stocks, that is keeping track. I was trying to see if the increase in animal research in Canada and China was due to stronger laws in force or on the horizon in other countries; or a lack of animal liberation activity in Canada.  I can find the website if you want.\n\nIn my country - Canada - we have been close to passing a law taking animals out of the property section of the constitution. But the hunting, fishing and other commercial interests persuaded some reps to go against it or loose their vote in the last session.  I watched the debate on TV.\n\n The only party that uniquivocally voted for it (and sweeping changes in favor of animals) is the New Democratic Party. I promised my vote to the Liberal party but, found out later that they are for the seal hunt because it brings 10 or so seats in Newfoundland where the hunt takes place (enough to prevent them from getting power). The other main party is conservative, pro big business (drug testing, hunting etc.).\n  \nBTW this is OT, sorry <!-- s:oops: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif\" alt=\":oops:\" title=\"Embarassed\" /><!-- s:oops: --> : I think the poster called Donnie Mac Leod  <!-- s:moon: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_butt.gif\" alt=\":moon:\" title=\"moon\" /><!-- s:moon: --> (at another forum) is a group of people, possibly with a commercial interest in fighting the cause of animal rights. He posts an average of 3 times per day and sometimes talks like a semi-illiterate and other times posts a well written essay??? <!-- s:eyes: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eyes.gif\" alt=\":eyes:\" title=\"confused\" /><!-- s:eyes: -->','',0,'gA==','1vmbz68h',1,1140204354,'',275,1,0),(6466,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140201179,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Diana, I think putting animal tormenters to sleep is sweet way to get rid of them compared to how animals are killed to satisfy sadistic desire of sick minded people.\nAnimals were boiled alive, drowned to death, beaten and skinned alive, set fire on and burned to death, etc!\nSweet death is too kind for animal killers.\nMaybe life sentence with several weeks of starvation or free labor for life is better.','',0,'gA==','1sdqdw7n',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6467,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140203697,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kristy, yes, it is so sad to know that there are very few or none of politicians who are strong enough to do what is right and instead of listening to people who are involved in animal torture industries.\nRight now, I am still working on anti chaining legislation in our state but most people are not persistent and make only one call or write one letter to their elected official and they think they did all they could do.\nNo wonder we cannot improve treatment of animals in our community.\nI am thinking about finding most progressed model bill in state where animal rights is accepted by many people because we can put our effort to persuade our legislators to adapt similar bill in our state. \nUnfortunately we don\'t have animal friendly legislators who show interest on animal related issues because we have many hunters, trappers, and facotory farmers in our state.\nThis sickening reality make very difficult for us to improve treatment of animals in our state.','',0,'gA==','37l4kw4t',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6468,936,3,275,0,'70.30.70.142',1140204542,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Violet13\nI edited my post - you said if the law allowed it.  I forgot to add that I voted NDP - the one recommended by Animal Alliance, who are the main group behind our effort in boycotting our Canadian seafood.\n\n[quote:2kllccic]I am still working on anti chaining legislation in our state but most people are not persistent and make only one call or write one letter to their elected official and they think they did all they could do.[/quote:2kllccic]\n\nA well known enviromental activist (name?) said everyone should write a paper letter to a politician every week. She said whenever something annoys you write again,  along with your weekly letter. They have to answer and in order to do that they have to read them. Also, they want to know what influences peoples\' votes and keep records. You must be polite and observe protocal (talk respectfully) or they\'ll think you\'re ignorant and  probably don\'t vote. Here, you don\'t even have to pay for postage to write to a federal member. \n\nA petition is considered one letter (officially - I\'ve heard) but that may be just internet petitions. A letter is under the same category as visiting the MP\'s office. And supposedly it takes 100,000 [i:2kllccic]presents[/i:2kllccic] to affect a change in the law. They take it  seriously when someone takes the time and effort to be informed enough to write about an issue, plus copies to relevant members.  I guess it\'s because the buzz is people are too busy and \"just don\'t have the time\". \n\nIf you\'re not busy \'working on the frontlines\'  money is the ultimate equalizer e.g. donations or organized boycott.  Publicity is good too. \n\nI\'m getting off topic again.  Good Day all.','',0,'oA==','2kllccic',1,0,'',275,0,0),(6479,936,3,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1140298536,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think that unless proven mentaly ill abusers should have to go through what they put the abusee through.  I know that this is not possible, but I beleive in making them go through the same amount of fear.','',0,'oA==','r4wky6c9',1,0,'',19,0,0),(6483,936,3,201,0,'152.163.101.10',1140350112,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I myself don\'t feel that I am hear to judge animal abusers or to have revenge on them. I feel that I am hear to protect animals from animal abusers. So I do support having stronger laws against animal abusers and I do support laws that would make animal abusers really pay for what they do for animals but I support this so the next person who is thinking about abusing an animal will think about what happend to someone else who abused an animal and maybe that person will not abuse an animal. So I support all this not because I hate animal abusers or because I want revenge of them but because I want to protect innocent animals.\n\n  One reason why I don\'t like to judge is because I can\'t see into a person heart. I don\'t know why some people abuse animals. Maybe they have mental problems ?  Maybe their mind is so clouded by filth that they don\'t even know what they are doing ? Maybe they grew up on an awful farm where they saw workers abused animals like hell so their mind was brainwashed into thinking that it\'s okay to abuse animals ? Hitler was able to brainwash little children so they would grow up to be Nazi Soldiers ? Some of these Nazi\'s killed and tortured Innocent people, but can I Judge them and say that these Nazi\'s deserve to roast in Hell ? Many of these Nazi\'s believed that they where doing the right thing and can we really blame them seeing that many of them where brainwashed all their life starting from childhood ? Do you see why I like to be careful before I judge someone. In my eyes it\'s not the crime that people do that makes them bad it\'s why they do it.\n\n  But I still believe that animal abuse should not be tolerated and I believe in starting laws that will make animal abusers pay even if the animal abuser is brainwashed  !!!   I believe that this can help out in many ways.  Not only will it protect animals but it might teach some of those brainwashed animal abusers a lesson. It might open their eyes to the truth and the truth might set them free. I might help out the next person who is thinking about abusing an animal. Maybe that person will be saved from taking a path that leads to destruction. You see if a person abuses an animal it might lead to other horrors that could cause the person to have a sick mind and mental problems and to have an awful life ect. \n\n   To me this is about giving people a wake up call that abusing animals is not right. Its about opening their eyes. I am all for showing the truth and the light. Are brainwashed society needs to see the light. If people can be brainwashed into thinking that it\'s okay to kill animals for food because they taste good then people can also be brainwashed into thinking that it\'s okay to abuse animals for fun because it gives me pleasure. I believe that MANY people who work in factory farms are brainwashed. The ones who are low paid workers who do the dirty work of killing and hurting those animals on dairy farms and other factory farms ect. might be so brainwashed that you could actually make them believe that yellow is blue and that blue is yellow. \n\n   I am not saying that I want to see laws passed that will torture and kill someone who abuses an animal but I would like to see animal abusers pay a higher price. Maybe some of them should be force to help out other animals ? I would not want them around animals, but maybe if someone really abuses an animal maybe they should be forced to work without pay and the money that they would have made would be used to help out other innocent who where abused ? Maybe they should go to a night class and it would not be fun and it\'s basically a class that will explain to them that animal abuse is not cool. \n\n   I am all for love and forgivness but I am also for wake calls. My love for all living beings is what makes me all for wake up calls for those who abuse animals. Something has to be done. One reason why I support so many animal rights groups is because they give wake up calls. Many people believe that animals killed for meat have a good life but those Animal Rights groups help give some of these people a wake up call and many of these people see the light and they see that many animals that are killed for meat are abused like hell so they go Vegetarian.','',0,'oA==','n0ct91xz',1,0,'',201,0,0),(6486,936,3,1,0,'84.64.94.151',1140379297,1,0,1,1,1,0,'Giuseppe','','\"If they found inocent later its to bad\"\n\nKRITER, I think you should consider what you just said. Are you saying that it\'s fine to let innocent people have their lives taken away by mistakes in a country\'s prosecution system? Surely that\'s no different from an innocent animal having her life taken away by all that is wrong in our world?\n\nAnd regarding this topic in general. If we see animals equal as humans, then really this is no different from the classic capital punishment argument: is it killing a killer because they have killed the right thing to do? Funnily enough both sides of the coin can use this to back up their argument. Some would say of course, since we should all live by \"an eye for an eye\"; but others would say that it\'s entirely hypocritical, and of course two wrongs don\'t make a right.\n\nLike most people who have posted, I am completely against the death penalty for any crime, even when there is completely condemning evidence and absolutely no doubt the person is guilty. But that\'s just because I reject it on principle. I find the idea of murdering our own citizens - no matter how evil - entirely immoral. I wouldn\'t want to live in a country where I thought the people with the power were killing anyone - criminal or not.','',0,'oA==','3rpbakvs',1,0,'',1,0,0),(6490,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140386649,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My question is where is justice for animals?\nI am sure if you had dog who saved your life in danger by risking his(or her) own life and if this faithful friend is killed by sadist in most horrible manner, I am sure you have completely different opinion about execustion of person who killed your faithful friend.\nIf execution of animal tormenters and killers is allowed by law, I am not going to protest because I seek justice for animals.\nI am not speaking about accident.','',0,'oA==','1flcetvy',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6493,936,3,1,0,'84.64.94.151',1140387271,1,0,1,1,1,0,'Giuseppe','','Justice for the animals comes in the form of other punishment. Personally I would rather die than have to live out most of my life in prison. Taking a life for a life only works on a symbolic level. Once you think in the wider context it\'s entirely impractical. For a start, as I just said my personal opinion is that long prison sentences are worse than death - death really is the end, and the end means the person can no longer pay for their crime.\n\nBut that\'s not even what I have against the death penalty. A murderer killing an animal is not the same as a highly regarded punishment body killing a murderer. The murderer, by calling him that, is defined by his crime - what\'s to stop those who bring about his execution being labelled murderers too?\n\nI just don\'t like the idea that my country would kill me if I was bad enough.','',0,'oA==','15diycd5',1,0,'',1,0,0),(6498,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1140439780,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','KRITER, I think you should consider what you just said. Are you saying that it\'s fine to let innocent people have their lives taken away by mistakes in a country\'s prosecution system? Surely that\'s no different from an innocent animal having her life taken away by all that is wrong in our world?\n\n\nIm saying if all the rong thats done to animals is done to people  then maybe we,d realize somthing.','',0,'oA==','3g6h76l1',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6501,936,3,51,0,'69.92.145.144',1140457550,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Let me get this straight......\n\nIt\'s ok to kill a human if they kill an animal...but it\'s wrong to kill an animal?\n\n\nIf you truly believe that killing animals is wrong, there can be no way you could support the death penalty.  To do otherwise would be profoundly hypocritical.','',0,'oA==','3sfb594p',1,0,'',51,0,0),(6508,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1140465066,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Cheeseburger_in_Paradise&quot;:2vkbck2g]Let me get this straight......\n\nIt\'s ok to kill a human if they kill an animal...but it\'s wrong to kill an animal?\n\n\nIf you truly believe that killing animals is wrong, there can be no way you could support the death penalty.  To do otherwise would be profoundly hypocritical.[/quote:2vkbck2g]Why is it hypocritical? I am opposed to killing animals because they are innocent, have done no wrong and are incapable of evil thoughts. Animal killers on the other hand are pure evil and a danger to society. If they get pleasure from killing animals then maybe they will get pleasure from killing humans. Not that that would be any worse in my book but for the speciesist majority of society it would be.\n\nI am in favour of the death penalty as it is the ultimate deterrent. The possibility of a death sentence would make people think twice about their actions for sure. Although its quite likely that a few innocent lives would be taken because of human error, we need to look a the big picture in that these would be far outweighed by the lives saved because of the death penalty.','',0,'gA==','2vkbck2g',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6509,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140482135,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Maisiepaisie, you are reading my mind!\nI agree with you 100%.\nSpeciests think only killing people(two legged animals) is wrong and should be punished but killing animals is ok therefore animal killers should not be punished.\nDo racists and speciests have something in common?\nI really think so.','',0,'gA==','354m1kbo',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6510,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140483443,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cheeseburger_in_Paradise, let me extend sentence.\nKilling an animal is wrong therefore if people torture and kill an animals intentinally, these people deserve death penalty.\nDon\'t you believe in death sentence for murderer?\nSerial killers started torturing and killing animals before they start working on people because they wanted to work on bigger thing.\nYou cannot separate killing of animals and killing of people.','',0,'gA==','21cakkot',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6512,936,3,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1140486644,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Studies have shown that death penalty is not a very good deterrent at all. But what you said, Violet:\n\"Although its quite likely that a few innocent lives would be taken because of human error, we need to look a the big picture in that these would be far outweighed by the lives saved because of the death penalty.\"\n\n... really worries me. Reasoning that doing one evil thing, which murdering an innocent certainly is, can be justified by a \"greater cause\" is dangerous and that sort of reasoning was, is, and will be used to justify just about any evil. The state can achieve the same result with life imprisonment and don\'t think it\'s a mild sentence, because many would prefer death and the guilty ones often commit suicide. In civilized countries, there is no death penalty. If you haven\'t noticed, you are visiting a place that many consider a \"terrorist\" website, and I wouldn\'t be surprised if death sentence was extended to animal rights activists. In uncivilized countries, that could happen and be justified by the same logic you used.','',0,'gA==','1rhmq2bz',1,0,'',111,0,0),(6518,936,3,51,0,'69.92.145.144',1140491263,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;violet13&quot;:2p4upo98]Cheeseburger_in_Paradise, let me extend sentence.\nKilling an animal is wrong therefore if people torture and kill an animals intentinally, these people deserve death penalty.\n[/quote:2p4upo98]\n\nPeople are animals too.\n\nI personally support the death penalty, and believe it should be enforced more vigorously.','',0,'gA==','2p4upo98',1,0,'',51,0,0),(6529,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1140556348,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Cheeseburger_in_Paradise&quot;:122ooro0]People are animals too.\n\nI personally support the death penalty, and believe it should be enforced more vigorously.[/quote:122ooro0]I absolutely agree. Why should the tax payer foot the bill to keep murderers alive? Even if we make them earn their keep it would still be cheaper to put them to death and I\'m still convinced this would be a deterrent.\n\nUK prisons are bursting at the seams because we\'re too soft on criminals, except of course ARAs and anyone else who commits a crime against the government  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->','',0,'gA==','122ooro0',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6532,936,3,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1140563304,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:1cwsfj6j]Why should the tax payer foot the bill to keep murderers alive? Even if we make them earn their keep it would still be cheaper to put them to death and I\'m still convinced this would be a deterrent.[/quote:1cwsfj6j]\nAnother silly \"it\'s good for economy\" argument. That\'s precisely the reason animal abuse happens. It\'s cheap. It\'s cheaper to experiment on animals than to buy expensive simulators or grow cells. It\'s cheaper to produce real fur than to make faux one. I\'m sure slavary is good for economy too. To be consistent, why not kill the sick ones and elderly? That would save a lot of dollars too.','',0,'gA==','1cwsfj6j',1,0,'',111,0,0),(6554,936,3,372,0,'70.181.47.55',1140623655,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','In my reading I have seen faux fur and alternatives to animal tests are cheaper in the long run. That is in fact at least with alternative to animal testing one of the things I use to promote when speaking to a company.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2slu5fxx',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6570,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1140642267,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;FreeQ&quot;:2ucvl0vp][quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:2ucvl0vp]Why should the tax payer foot the bill to keep murderers alive? Even if we make them earn their keep it would still be cheaper to put them to death and I\'m still convinced this would be a deterrent.[/quote:2ucvl0vp]\nAnother silly \"it\'s good for economy\" argument. That\'s precisely the reason animal abuse happens. It\'s cheap. It\'s cheaper to experiment on animals than to buy expensive simulators or grow cells. It\'s cheaper to produce real fur than to make faux one. I\'m sure slavary is good for economy too. To be consistent, why not kill the sick ones and elderly? That would save a lot of dollars too.[/quote:2ucvl0vp]Yes you\'re right but the difference is that animals and innocent, sick and elderly people don\'t deserve to suffer. Murdering scum do.','',0,'gA==','2ucvl0vp',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6584,936,3,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1140695299,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I strongly object to the death penalty on moral grounds for any crime.\n\nI also think that animal cruelty is a product of a violent society that is desensitised to death and suffering. The abolition of the death penalty in countries that still have it will, in my opinion, pave the way to a society more sensitive to animal rights.\n\nPlease don\'t think for a minute that means I want to go soft on them though. As a previous post suggested, 25 years on a ball and chain and hard labour is far more productive. maybe with a vegetarian cracking the whip   <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','1anvcgmk',1,0,'',558,0,0),(6596,936,3,372,0,'70.181.47.55',1140745339,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Boar,\n\nThat was me I am all for forced labor. A switch from my grapevine will make a perfect organic enviro freindly whip!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3cowggqi',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6616,936,3,441,0,'24.16.11.45',1140855003,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I dont have a problem with capital punishment. I dont really like people that much and would love to see these low lifes gone.  Killing an animal is the lowest a person can go. Just image an animal like a baby that cannot defend or fight back. I dont feel sorry and I wish more criminals were put to death. Most animal killers are very violent people and start off with animals and move to people.','',0,'gA==','lvxuukfk',1,0,'',441,0,0),(6621,936,3,119,0,'68.80.143.154',1140884228,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','puppylove, you are not alone.\nI saw bumpersticker \"More I know about people, more I love animals!\"\nIf I deal with 1000 people, maybe I can only find very few people who are unselfish and honest enough to acknowledge injustice of animal exploitation and strive to change their life style.\nPeople are worst creatures on this planet.','',0,'gA==','1vjcu1e0',1,0,'',119,0,0),(6634,457,12,575,0,'217.44.251.115',1140913490,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Am I a teenager: Check. Am I female: check. Am I anorexic: Nope - in fact, I\'m slightly overweight. XD\n\nThat women needs to be put in the stocks for several days, and rotten fruit thrown at her. I hate people like her, even though she\'s a feminist like myself, I cannot tolerate Vegetarian/Vegan haters. \n\nI do admit to finding myself morally superior to meat-eaters and anyone who allow cruelty to animals. Because it is pure common sense that you should not hurt or kill your fellow creatures. But that\'s about it.','',0,'gA==','6o6lc4o6',1,0,'',575,0,0),(6636,936,3,575,0,'217.44.251.115',1140914023,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Death is too good a sentence for animal abusers. They should be made to sit in a room with no means of human communication, no means of entertainment. Heck, nothing to even sit on. And they should stay in such for the rest of their lives with only bread and water.','',0,'gA==','1smhfprt',1,0,'',575,0,0),(6650,477,19,575,0,'217.44.251.115',1140925130,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Heh, sorry about bringing up a dead topic, but I\'d like to take part in the discussion.\n\nMy dog, (not with us anymore, RIP  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> ), I would let off the leash, even though I think it\'s actually illegal here; not quite sure. I personally don\'t like most leashes - alot tend to be choke-chain attachable. Admittedly the chain my dog had, was a choke chain - not my choice, my mum bought him and all the stuff to do with him. But I\'d never pull on the leash (when he had it on) so that the chain would go inwards and choke him.  To me, a dog on a leash is somewhat restricted. Fair enough, when near busy roads and what not (granted, my dog was rather well-tempered and would be good and walk beside or slightly ahead of me and wouldn\'t wander off, so was fairly ok to have him off leash near roads), but in parks where there is open space for the dog to play and run, I don\'t see the point unless the dog is particularly aggressive and a danger to other people. Also, I don\'t get why people have those really short leashes that can\'t extend. I always used the ones where they had the button to let the lead lengthen and shorten to your choice. That way you could stop the dog quickly if it was about to walk onto a road or something.','',0,'gA==','hbuencog',1,0,'',575,0,0),(6656,933,22,441,0,'24.16.11.45',1140946601,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I work with sick animals at an emergency animal hospital. Many of the animals should be euthanized but are not. Instead I watch them slowly die and when they stop breathing we resuscitate and try and bring them back. Most of the owners are crazy people who want you to do anything to keep there animal alive and willing to pay thousands of dollars. Euthanasia is a gift we can give to an animal to end the suffering. I have made a pledge to my beloved pets that I will not be selfish and greedy and have them euthanized when its necessary.  \n\n\nA Dogs Prayer\nBy Beth Norman Harris\n\n Treat me kindly, my beloved master, for no heart in all the world is more grateful for kindness than the loving heart of me. Do not break my spirit with a stick, for though I should lick your hand between the blows, your patience and understanding will more quickly teach me the things you would have me do. Speak to me often, for your voice is the world\'s sweetest music, as you must know by the fierce wagging of my tail when your footsteps falls upon my waiting ear. When it is cold and wet, please take me inside, for I am now a domesticated animal, no longer used to bitter elements. And I ask no greater glory than the privilege of sitting at your feet beside the hearth. Though had you no home, I would rather follow you through ice and snow than rest upon the softest pillow in the warmest home in all the land, for you are my god and I am your devoted worshiper.  Keep my pan filled with fresh water, for although I should not reproach you were it dry, I cannot tell you when I suffer thirst.  Feed me clean food, that I may stay well, to romp and play and do your bidding, to walk by your side, and stand ready, willing and able to protect you with my life should your life be in danger. And, beloved master, should the great Master see fit to deprive me of my health or sight, do not turn me away from you. Rather hold me gently in your arms as skilled hands grant me the merciful boon of eternal rest -- and I will leave you knowing with the last breath I drew, my fate was ever safest in your hands.\nBy Beth Norman Harris','',0,'gA==','1z141anq',1,0,'',441,0,0),(6667,936,3,571,0,'62.254.64.18',1140987748,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Lets just think for a moment, so those of you who believe in capital punishment to animal killers are basiclly saying that \"if a human kills an animal the human should be killed\" what about if an animal kills an animal and im not talking about to survive, gorillas can organise warfare and murder, rape and even torture one and other so should they be killed because they took an innocent life? I am pro-AR but that argument doesnt make sense, how can we get any where by killing each other, humans are animals to! And yes if it was my dog killed damn right id wanna fucking skin the murderer but that wouldnt help or prove anything, capitap punishment never works. Lets say 100 years on from the day it was introduced for animal killing, people are living in fear that if they do wrong (murder) they will die, good? No as with our government they want control it would just be used to manipulate us all, new stupid laws would be made that dont benefit anyone except them and their wallets. But yey they dont deserve luxury, fuck em they did wrong so they get wrong, neglect them, abuse them whatever just dont kill them then maybe once released they might think twice about being a twat and stop, and if not well at least some revenge has been done! <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','1ehb9xl5',1,0,'',571,0,0),(6668,936,3,441,0,'24.16.11.45',1141010428,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','are you comparing animals killing other animals? Animals do not comprehend this is wrong but a pure act of nature. If a dog (or any animal) mauls someone they are euthanized right away. There is no reason why we should have to put up with killers in our society. If animals have to pay the price for there crimes then so should people.','',0,'gA==','2dsayteh',1,0,'',441,0,0),(6672,936,3,575,0,'81.156.155.154',1141048915,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hear Hear.','',0,'gA==','2468t87k',1,0,'',575,0,0),(6675,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1141049581,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I read about a bear \"habitat\" in a zoo in Richmond, Virginia.Theres two fences.One for people to stand behind another closer to the bears.There was two black bears in the \"habitat\".A littl kid somhow got to the fence closest to the bears.Parents was there.Kid put hand on fence,bear bit it just enuff to break the skin.Both them bears was killed for it.','',0,'gA==','5dqqoi71',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6676,936,3,575,0,'81.156.155.154',1141050028,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That\'s stupid. It\'s the kids fault. ¬_¬\n\nSame thing happened to a bull who got into the audience in a bullfighting ring. Jeesh, you torture a bull like that, it\'s going to go mental.','',0,'gA==','2lriqi1x',1,0,'',575,0,0),(6677,936,3,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141056537,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Those two examples are obviously ridiculous that any animal should be treated that way or be victims of human stupidity; but they don\'t make a pro death penalty case.\n\nThe way to a more civilised society is rarely through killing, of non-human animals, humans or both.','',0,'gA==','28yyq2u5',1,0,'',558,0,0),(6692,936,3,372,0,'70.181.47.55',1141140551,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','This is a pointless dbate as it will never happen. At least pushing for confinment/slave labor tactics there is a slim shot. Then if someone is found out later to be innocent you can make reparations to that person. To say fuck it if an innocent person dies makes no sense! It is just as easy for someone who does not love animal to say fuck it its just an animal. No politician will take either of those sides seriously in any country! Remember when you kill a human you kill an animal which opens up the flood gates.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3mei1thv',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6713,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1141158329,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree with much of whats been said both for and against the death penalty. I want to make animal abusers suffer as much as possible, ideally the same way they made animals suffer.[quote=&quot;puppylove&quot;:wkuaw7t7] I dont really like people that much and would love to see these low lifes gone.  [/quote:wkuaw7t7]This is exactly the way I feel but unfortunately JLP-B is right about our manipulative government. They wouldn\'t just reserve the death penalty for animal abusers and other genuine scumbags, but they would put to death people for lesser crimes also. Even the act of killing someone can sometimes be justified. Probably even ARAs would be put to death knowing the mentality of the British Justice System.','',0,'gA==','wkuaw7t7',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6721,936,3,601,0,'66.190.173.2',1141162639,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:19iwof3j][quote=&quot;Cheeseburger_in_Paradise&quot;:19iwof3j]Let me get this straight......\n\nIt\'s ok to kill a human if they kill an animal...but it\'s wrong to kill an animal?\n\n\nIf you truly believe that killing animals is wrong, there can be no way you could support the death penalty.  To do otherwise would be profoundly hypocritical.[/quote:19iwof3j]Why is it hypocritical? I am opposed to killing animals because they are innocent, have done no wrong and are incapable of evil thoughts. Animal killers on the other hand are pure evil and a danger to society. If they get pleasure from killing animals then maybe they will get pleasure from killing humans. Not that that would be any worse in my book but for the speciesist majority of society it would be.\n\nI am in favour of the death penalty as it is the ultimate deterrent. The possibility of a death sentence would make people think twice about their actions for sure. Although its quite likely that a few innocent lives would be taken because of human error, we need to look a the big picture in that these would be far outweighed by the lives saved because of the death penalty.[/quote:19iwof3j]\n\nAnimal killers are pure evil and a danger to society? If they get pleasure from killing animals maybe they would get pleasure from killing humans too? What a ridiculous thing to say. I grew up on a small farm where killing animals for food was a fact of life. I am a hunter. I harvest, and yes, I did say harvest, at least one deer a year. I would never, never, never kill a human being (unless it was an intruder in my home or some other act of self-defense). From what I\'ve read on this forum I have much more compassion than a lot of you do. Anti-hunters throw around terms like blood-lust, sadistic, etc about hunters. I see a lot more of that attitude on this board than from any of my hunting friends.','',0,'gA==','19iwof3j',1,0,'',601,0,0),(6727,936,3,575,0,'81.156.157.64',1141163622,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Question: Why are you on an AR type board if you hunt? It may be only one, but it\'s still a life lost. \n\nAnd FYI, alot of psychopaths, murderers and what-not start off killing and torturing animals, then move onto killing and torturing humans. So there\'s all the need to say what they said. It\'s not ridiculous.','',0,'gA==','25on56lg',1,0,'',575,0,0),(6728,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1141164037,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Lurker97&quot;:1zemmiuu][Animal killers are pure evil and a danger to society? If they get pleasure from killing animals maybe they would get pleasure from killing humans too? What a ridiculous thing to say. [/quote:1zemmiuu]Ridiculous? I don\'t think so. Many serial killers started out torturing animals. We don\'t need to kill animals for survival so to do so is immoral. You think you have more compassion than me? I never killed anyone, but you did. Yes I believe animals are \'someones\' not \'somethings\'.','',0,'gA==','1zemmiuu',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6730,936,3,601,0,'66.190.173.2',1141165628,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:5qgrofge]Question: Why are you on an AR type board if you hunt? It may be only one, but it\'s still a life lost. \n\nAnd FYI, alot of psychopaths, murderers and what-not start off killing and torturing animals, then move onto killing and torturing humans. So there\'s all the need to say what they said. It\'s not ridiculous.[/quote:5qgrofge]\n\nYou read my intro so you should already know the answer to that.\n\nThe VAAAASSSSST majority don\'t Chenli.','',0,'gA==','5qgrofge',1,0,'',601,0,0),(6740,936,3,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1141184860,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','We like our opposition here.  Hunters and the likes are more than welcome to participate in discussion.  \n\nPeople that have different beleifs than us are our biggest target audience.','',0,'gA==','3w2wxoon',1,0,'',19,0,0),(6742,936,3,613,0,'64.12.116.7',1141185614,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hmmm, it is acceptable to kill humans if they kill animals, so who would provide the food? Farmers kill untold numbers of animals in the production of every crop they raise. They would have to be killed for it. The effect of the human population would be limited because the last one would either have to change their mind or kill themsleves ... but that is only if you do not have a double standard, which seems to be a common addition to such discussions.','',0,'gA==','3hz1qpq4',1,0,'',613,0,0),(6747,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1141208552,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','What are you talking about? Why are animals killed to grow crops? I haven\'t heard that before.','',0,'gA==','f7req9br',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6750,936,3,613,0,'64.12.116.7',1141217319,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:n10vrz4z]What are you talking about? Why are animals killed to grow crops? I haven\'t heard that before.[/quote:n10vrz4z]\n\nThey get run over by the machines, cut my the plows, tillers, and harvesters, killed by poison, traps and shooting to keep them out of the fields, and that is just in the initial stages. Do you know how many animal parts are allowed in the food you consume for that reason? If you have a weak stomach you do not want to find out.','',0,'gA==','n10vrz4z',1,0,'',613,0,0),(6762,936,3,372,0,'70.181.47.55',1141227464,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There are alternate ways of growing crops. I use no pesticides and no mechanical devices that kill animals. In fact I feed animals and invite them on my property. I grow lots of vegetables and fruits. I make wine, jelly, relish, freeze veggies and of course eat fresh. I work full time and still manage to grow a good amt. of my own food. I also take care of a severly disabled person. So it is possible to eat without killing and farmers could be taught those methods. Just because something is hard does not make it impossible.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3282pph5',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6777,936,3,601,0,'66.90.226.99',1141263744,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:14i8wdrh]What are you talking about? Why are animals killed to grow crops? I haven\'t heard that before.[/quote:14i8wdrh]\n\nYou\'ve never worked on a farm eh? Yes, on a small scale animals are killed by farm implements. Mostly deer and rabbits. These animals frequently bed down in ag fields during daylight hours.On a much larger scale, I can assure you that farmers take every action they can to protect profits, err, crops. Wildlife loves soybeans, apples, lettuce, soybeans, all brasicas, corn, and especially soybeans. Eliminating or at least controlling them is a necessary step in bringing food to market.','',0,'gA==','14i8wdrh',1,0,'',601,0,0),(6792,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1141297689,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I\'m sorry to hear that this happens but like VeganAngel said its not impossible to grow crops ethically. I shop mainly at Unicorn Grocery <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.unicorn-grocery.co.uk/index.html\">http://www.unicorn-grocery.co.uk/index.html</a><!-- m --> They are an ethical, totally vegan foodstore who source their produce from ethical farmers so hopefully much fewer animals would be killed by farming methods.','',0,'gA==','37dpakpn',1,0,'',309,0,0),(6797,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1141303238,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I worked my ass off on small ranchs and farms.Im not arguing the fact that critters get killed by farm machines.I seen a rattler baled up alive.I let it go but it could hav been cut in half.Never seen no deer  killed in no field I worked.Smaller animals could hav been.Never shot or traped nothing to keep it out the field.But where ever theres truks,tractors and cars critters get killed.I do beleev its somthing to be awair of.Lots of farmers put their living ahed of the life of any animal.If it meens killing rabbits to insure that crop is intact some will do it without thinking twice.I hav come across ethical farmers at our local farmers market that go out their way not to hurt nothing to make sure they not selling nothing but their crop.I gro my own vegetables.Gro enuff for me and them  crows, coons and maybe a rabbit.Dont use no tiller just shovel,rake and hoe so as not to kill nothing in the ground like a vole or a mole.Never had no trouble with deer but wouldnt kill none if I did.I seen to much killing.VeganAngel is rite.Crops can be gron without hurting anything.Just some folks dont want to go thru the trouble.','',0,'gA==','2r14d8lx',1,0,'',454,0,0),(6820,352,1,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1141329824,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:18fvh54k][b:18fvh54k]I often wish that aliens of a higher intelligence would come here and capture humans for experimentation. [/b:18fvh54k]Now by the animal researchers standards, the aliens would not be doing anything wrong. After all because the aliens are more intelligent, they must be more important, right? At least it would make these assholes think about what they are doing, especially if themselves or their family were held captive and tortured.[/quote:18fvh54k]\n\nWell said Maisiepaisie!','',0,'wA==','18fvh54k',1,0,'',124,0,0),(6824,352,1,369,0,'70.108.54.11',1141334156,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;animalover&quot;:3fxnx8pp][quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:3fxnx8pp][b:3fxnx8pp]I often wish that aliens of a higher intelligence would come here and capture humans for experimentation. [/b:3fxnx8pp]Now by the animal researchers standards, the aliens would not be doing anything wrong. After all because the aliens are more intelligent, they must be more important, right? At least it would make these assholes think about what they are doing, especially if themselves or their family were held captive and tortured.[/quote:3fxnx8pp]\n\nWell said Maisiepaisie![/quote:3fxnx8pp]\n\n\nI would give everything I own to see this happen to a species that deserves nothing better. (even if I am a victim)  I can taste the irony....','',0,'wA==','3fxnx8pp',1,0,'',369,0,0),(6834,936,3,372,0,'70.181.47.55',1141351401,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','OK playing devils advocate nothing is fool proof. \n\nEven pitch forks can kill for instance a mouse it happened to me once. The reason I can get over that is it is not mass killing and it was not intentional I relocated the rest of the family and made sure the mom didn\'t abandon the rest of the babies. I even fed them daily and provided water. However smaller technology does have less of an impact. I have been gardening over 20 yrs. I managed to kill one baby mouse by accident. While that one did suffer I can take pride in the fact that my mini farm killed one animal in 20 yrs. Mistakes happen and at times have bad results. The problem as stated before is people do not care. I actually use various noisemakers before I start ground breaking to attempt to scare anything in the way. There are also hand tillers available which take little effort and create ground vibrations as you use them and going slower lets the animals get out of the way. Providing water on and food on your farm can help keep certain animals away from crops. Also companion planting helps keep things away. For instance Horn worms common in my area on tomatoes hate basil so you plant tomatoes with basil interspersed and no tomato horn worm. Of course I plant 2 extra tomato plants and let the horn worms come they turn into a beatiful moth. I also release ladybugs and praying mantis to help control the bug population without using pesticides which kills not only bugs but birds and some small mammals. I think some people would disapprove of the treatment of the bugs I release as they need to be flown in via mail and then are refrigerated 24 hours before release. I know it sounds odd but this puts them into a semi hibrenation almost and then when released into nature they do not stray far. Some people may be uncomfortable putting bugs in their refrigerators but you get used to it  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nWhile some of these methods may seem barbaric or odd the small amt of harm it causes is better than the mass number if I used pesticides and killed everything in my path not to mention the harm to soil, water, and people.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','7sb46n9i',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6861,936,3,506,0,'67.52.236.90',1141417001,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Wow Vegan Angel, you are my hero.  I have a brown thumb.  I can grow herbs but normally I kill my houseplants.  A whole farm?!  I\'m afraid to think what I would do to it, luckily the organic market is close, within walking distance.  Thanks to people like you I don\'t starve.','',0,'wA==','254lfi0z',1,0,'',506,0,0),(6885,936,3,372,0,'70.181.47.55',1141491093,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I shouldn\'t be. I do not go to market for distribution but I give stuff to my friends. It is possible on a larger scale though and have worked on local farms that do it. Now I just run a wildlife habitat and farm for myself and friends.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','1oyfelw5',1,0,'',372,0,0),(6907,457,12,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141662795,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I can understand people not wanting to be vegetarian and therefore ignoring the issue, but to actually be upset by the presence of non-meat eaters suggests someone very disturbed and actually undermines any argument she tries to make.\n\nWhats wrong with feeling superior? Thats a bit like saying &quot;all those people who aren\'t child molestors all get the moral high ground over those who do molest children!&quot; Yes, and for good reason!\n\nThe atmosphere she detected in the restaurant, I would guess, is the sense of releif all veggies have when they sit down to a meal where they dont have to look at body parts being consumed and eat in the blissful knowledge that there is no meat in the kitchen that could contaminate their food.\n\nHave you noticed that those who tell us why vegetarianism is so wrong NEVER tell us what is so right about meat eating? Even if every veggie in the world was a complete idiot, that still doesn\'t tell us why meat eating is right.','',0,'wA==','afl6anbr',1,0,'',558,0,0),(6951,457,12,376,0,'83.172.208.133',1141808658,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I see that the article was originally published in the Guardian.\n\nI\'ve been reading the Guardian (Weekly) for over twenty years. It\'s the best newspaper around in order to know what\'s going on in the world.\n\nBut I have always been DEEPLY disappointed at their vehement anti-AR stance. Not only disappointed but very bewildered too. There must be someone high up in the editing group who pushes this agenda.\n\nIt\'s very sad.\n\nAs to the article in question, it is badly written, it has mistakes in it (for instance when she talks of AR activists blowing up scientists), and I am surprised that any newspaper would print such a badly written piece. My 14 year old son writes better than this woman. She should definitely take some lessons in creative writing.','',0,'wA==','2vtw20wl',1,0,'',376,0,0),(6952,457,12,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141816164,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I read The Independent which I believe is, along with The Guardian, the only UK newspaper worth bothering with. Both papers allow their journalists a decent amount of freedom, so occasionally you get rubbish like the above sprouted.\n\nInteresting about you thinking The Guardian has an anti AR stance, I don\'t buy it so I can\'t comment, but from a liberal minded paper it is strange. The Independent is pretty balanced. Can only think you are right, someone on the board must own a few dodgy shares somewhere!','',0,'wA==','39i2s3qp',1,1141827011,'',558,2,0),(6954,457,12,376,0,'83.172.208.133',1141819130,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','The last mention of AR in the Guardian Weekly (international edition) mentioned animal &quot;rights&quot; (i.e. they put rights in inverted commas), and they used a very aggressive word to describe the ALF activists - I can\'t recall which one now. The article had to do with Oxford.','',0,'wA==','11alqehp',1,0,'',376,0,0),(6955,457,12,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141819536,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sounds very anti, usually they are quite balanced on other issues aren\'t they?','',0,'wA==','12nwrxf8',1,0,'',558,0,0),(6956,457,12,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141819706,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','This article in The Independent is much better!\n\n\n[url:3lfsskh4]http&#58;//comment&#46;independent&#46;co&#46;uk/commentators/article349525&#46;ece[/url:3lfsskh4]\n\nA fine paper, Newspaper of the Year no less!','',0,'EA==','3lfsskh4',1,0,'',558,0,0),(6962,457,12,615,0,'82.3.50.60',1141824254,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I preferred this one, which was in the same edition:\n\n[url:3fzf7o1v]http&#58;//news&#46;independent&#46;co&#46;uk/world/science_technology/article349459&#46;ece[/url:3fzf7o1v]','',0,'EA==','3fzf7o1v',1,0,'',615,0,0),(6964,457,12,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141826378,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Yes, as I said The Independent is always very balanced in it\'s reporting of these issues.','',0,'EA==','3ck1asiv',1,0,'',558,0,0),(6970,457,12,376,0,'83.172.208.133',1141833538,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Independent is a good paper. The reason I buy the Guardian Weekly is because it\'s not focused only on the UK (I\'m not British so am not so concerned with local UK issues). Guardian Weekly also prints things from Le Monde and the Washington Post.\n\nThey often lean more left than center.','',0,'EA==','39co8mnf',1,0,'',376,0,0),(6974,457,12,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141835705,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','They are both good papers, have you ever seen the UK paper The Sun, my Gods it is awful. Real bottom of the barrel stuff.','',0,'EA==','b341qzod',1,0,'',558,0,0),(6975,457,12,615,0,'82.3.50.60',1141836283,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Boar&quot;:9r4nt5e3]They are both good papers, have you ever seen the UK paper The Sun, my Gods it is awful. Real bottom of the barrel stuff.[/quote:9r4nt5e3]\n\nWhat are you talking about?  It\'s a fine publication, like the Mail.\n\nI\'m surprised that the broadsheets have taken so long to start printing at tabloid size.','',0,'gA==','9r4nt5e3',1,0,'',615,0,0),(6976,457,12,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1141836571,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Don\'t get me started on the Daily Mail!      <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nAt least you get the impression that the &quot;journalists&quot; at The Sun don\'t take it seriously and just know how to wind up their gullible readership. The Mail is a poisonous rag!\n\nYou are right, reading the paper in a more convinient size is so much better.','',0,'gA==','2rpo9ayr',1,0,'',558,0,0),(7009,352,1,575,0,'81.153.138.235',1141915561,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Just wanted to say that the site looks a bit better now the grid lines for the different sections have gone.  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','125bwmoc',1,0,'',575,0,0),(7010,352,1,615,0,'82.3.50.60',1141915805,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:10hdnzpw]I often wish that aliens of a higher intelligence would come here and capture humans for experimentation. Now by the animal researchers standards, the aliens would not be doing anything wrong. After all because the aliens are more intelligent, they must be more important, right? At least it would make these assholes think about what they are doing, especially if themselves or their family were held captive and tortured.[/quote:10hdnzpw]\n\nWhat makes you think they haven\'t?  Ooooowheeeeooooooooh oooooeeeeeeeooooooh... you\'ve been probed.','',0,'gA==','10hdnzpw',1,0,'',615,0,0),(7018,933,22,124,0,'204.209.159.15',1141922696,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I believe in euthanasia for both humans and animals.  Why prolong any unnecessary suffering?','',0,'gA==','o0rtkwit',1,0,'',124,0,0),(7021,933,22,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1141924126,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','In principle I agree with euthanasia but I think it would be very difficult to ensure that a person did want to die and that relatives didn\'t try to get rid of them quicker to get their hands on there money. Also we cannot always be sure that there is no hope of recovery. So therefore I\'m not sure if I\'m for or against on this issue','',0,'gA==','3nttj78a',1,0,'',309,0,0),(7025,936,3,626,0,'82.40.180.175',1141929845,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hi, this is my first post here.  I find the view promoting the death penalty for animal abusers quite scary, especially the view for maybe a few innocent people to die.  Can I just first say that the MAJORITY of serial killers DO NOT start of killing animals, some do, yes of course, many don’t.  If you propose building a society free of exploitation (human or non human) how can you say the death penalty will be worthwhile?  If you have read any stuff against the death penalty you will understand that it doe’s not stop, or even lower, the crime rate- some parts of the US have the death penalty- murder still goes on, infact the US has the highest rate of murder in the developed world!!  Tookie Williams was executed a few months ago, has this stopped gang warfare in LA?  Far from it.  The death penalty does not stop the crime.  \n\nI can understand peoples anger towards animal abusers, but where would you draw the line for the killings?  Would a friends’ mum who works as a sectary in a Hungarian meat factory be up for this death penalty?  What about the low paid immigrant workers filling the meat factories in the US?  Would they be killed, considering this is one of the only jobs they can get to survive?  This does not in any way mean slaughterhouses are ok, but who is going to be the judge, jury and executioner in all of this?  \n\nFor all the pro death sentence people on here, everyone else I know who are pro death sentence tends to be somewhat conservative in views.  The death sentence is promoted predominately by the right wing of the political spectrum, obviously the highest supporters of AR….  Isn’t promoting the death of another human through the death penalty being a ‘sick individual’?  After all a human is an animal.  Who would kill these people, aren’t they murders to?  Repression over animals is one of the worst aspects of our society, so is repression over humans, yet some of you are promoting repression over humans, even though they may have committed horrific acts, does this mean they are now a ‘subhuman’ species, fit for death?\n\nAlso any government with the death penalty tends to target people that in a lot of times don’t deserve it, far from it.  China, with the world’s highest death penalty rate, kills human justice acts the US has a handful of political activists on death row.  Government’s work on profit, they support all forms of animal abuse as long as there is profit, why would they introduce the death penalty for something that is profitable for them?  You need to change peoples attitudes, petitioning government does little, vivisection needs to end, legislations for slightly bigger cages, or better food more often is bull, end it, but the death penalty is not the answer!!','',0,'gA==','mbvl1hqs',1,0,'',626,0,0),(7027,457,12,376,0,'83.172.208.133',1141931991,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Here is the latest rant in this week\'s edition of the Guardian Weekly:\n\n[i:3c9tcj14][b:3c9tcj14]Dissenters defy the animal nutters[/b:3c9tcj14][/i:3c9tcj14]\n\n[i:3c9tcj14]At last a campaigning group has been formed to oppose the shrill and often violent animal &quot;rights&quot; movement. Pro-Test helt its first and highly successful demonstration last weekend in Oxford, where the university is a prime target of the more extreme animal activists. A new animal testing laboratory, which research scientists say is vital for the development of medical and veterinary drugs, is again under construction after the original contractors pulled out in the face of violence, both real and threatened.\n\nPro-Test, supported by many dons and students, was founded in January by Laurie Pycroft, a would-be neurosurgeont and firm supporter of medical research. He is 16 years old, which has not deterred the animal rights nutters from sending him death threats.&quot;[/i:3c9tcj14]','',0,'YA==','3c9tcj14',1,0,'',376,0,0),(7028,457,12,558,0,'80.229.159.66',1141933648,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Blimey, that sounds like the kind of uniformed reactionary stuff you\'d expect from the Sun.','',0,'YA==','23bqk149',1,0,'',558,0,0),(7029,457,12,376,0,'83.172.208.133',1141934176,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Yes, and the odd thing is that they are only reactionary about animal &quot;rights&quot; (as they call them).\n\nWhich to me means there\'s someone &quot;up&quot; there who has a bee in his bonnet. \n\nI\'ll write a letter to the editor one of these days. Perhaps they will publish it.','',0,'YA==','3hcfqfi9',1,0,'',376,0,0),(7033,936,3,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1141944452,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree with everything you said, except this:\n[quote=&quot;sarah123&quot;:18bd13b4]What about the low paid immigrant workers filling the meat factories in the US?  Would they be killed, considering this is one of the only jobs they can get to survive?[/quote:18bd13b4]\nI doubt that in any part of US or Europe people have to work for meat industry to survive. There are always plenty of jobs that can provide at least basic survival (I mean bare survival, not medium/high living standard).','',0,'gA==','18bd13b4',1,0,'',111,0,0),(7034,933,22,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1141945080,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:6r6cnonw]So therefore I\'m not sure if I\'m for or against on this issue[/quote:6r6cnonw]\nThat\'s my view too. Euthanasia is too context-dependant and no convincing generalization can be made either for or against it.','',0,'gA==','6r6cnonw',1,0,'',111,0,0),(7041,936,3,626,0,'82.40.180.175',1141990539,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Most of the employees in meat factroys take it as their first job, or their only avalible job.  Meat factorys throughout America are run using immigrants (often illegal, so no health insurance or union backup).  Even with some people I know who have relatives working in slaughterhouses in England, Scotland and Hungary they still receive bare wages.  In the US one of the highest rates of injury/death at work is for meat factory workers, especially losing limbs and slipping or even worse, leading to some deaths each year.  The best avalible source for info on the human cost of slaughterhouses and working with these animals in such close confinement is that book Fast Food Nation.  Aside from immediate physical injuries such as losing limbs and such many suffer from resperitary diseases or skin infections through the conditions they work in.\nSlaughterhouses are run on a profit basis, I forget where it was but didn\'t 20 or so young women and alot of animals burn to death when a machine in a slaughterhouse caught fire, and the owner had blocked up the fire exit to stop them taking short breaks?  These people care little for the human workers there and also the animals, they are all pawns to make a profit.','',0,'gA==','2e2ut0pg',1,0,'',626,0,0),(7043,936,3,19,0,'207.195.243.224',1141994882,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Fast Food Nation is a great book.  I read it all at once, I couldn\'t put it down.\n\nI know where there are copies for sale for $8 (friend and friend of the author), PM me if anyone is interested.  Will have to give a shipping address though.\n\nL','',0,'gA==','m3zjt66k',1,0,'',19,0,0),(7061,933,22,575,0,'81.151.16.68',1142032462,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;puppylove&quot;:2saf13ei]A Dogs Prayer\nBy Beth Norman Harris\n\n Treat me kindly, my beloved master, for no heart in all the world is more grateful for kindness than the loving heart of me. Do not break my spirit with a stick, for though I should lick your hand between the blows, your patience and understanding will more quickly teach me the things you would have me do. Speak to me often, for your voice is the world\'s sweetest music, as you must know by the fierce wagging of my tail when your footsteps falls upon my waiting ear. When it is cold and wet, please take me inside, for I am now a domesticated animal, no longer used to bitter elements. And I ask no greater glory than the privilege of sitting at your feet beside the hearth. Though had you no home, I would rather follow you through ice and snow than rest upon the softest pillow in the warmest home in all the land, for you are my god and I am your devoted worshiper.  Keep my pan filled with fresh water, for although I should not reproach you were it dry, I cannot tell you when I suffer thirst.  Feed me clean food, that I may stay well, to romp and play and do your bidding, to walk by your side, and stand ready, willing and able to protect you with my life should your life be in danger. And, beloved master, should the great Master see fit to deprive me of my health or sight, do not turn me away from you. Rather hold me gently in your arms as skilled hands grant me the merciful boon of eternal rest -- and I will leave you knowing with the last breath I drew, my fate was ever safest in your hands.\nBy Beth Norman Harris[/quote:2saf13ei]\n\nThat made me cry. ;_;','',0,'gA==','2saf13ei',1,0,'',575,0,0),(7067,1001,27,571,0,'62.254.64.18',1142101664,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Chicken Housing','does anybody know of anywhere i can either order or go and buy decent and affordable chicken housing any not online shops (i.e a garden centre that sells them) need to in or around lancashire/North West. Ive been wanting to look after resqued chickens for quite some time (and im not gunna eat them or their eggs although members of my family might its better than buying exploited hen eggs) then i looked at the prices of various pens/housing areas, I nearly fell of my chair 200 pounds for a &quot;starter kit&quot; a basic run and pen! Then i looked at the amazing eglu yeh ill admit its pretty amazing especially the god damn cost of it! 350 pounds  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: -->  (p+p included) Arhh i might aswell just make one however if anyone knows of somewhere that sells them then get back to me, Thanks! <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> [b:3qrzdoob][/b:3qrzdoob]','',0,'Qg==','3qrzdoob',1,0,'',571,0,0),(7074,844,5,626,0,'82.44.45.108',1142112913,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','May sound abit silly, but how can you tell if a fur coat is real or not?  Also how can you tell (roughly) how old it is?','',0,'Qg==','1lnj1edp',1,0,'',626,0,0),(7086,1001,27,19,0,'207.195.241.53',1142190959,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Here in the USA loads of people make their own Chicken housing.  Maybe you could go look at some and then figure out a way to build your own?','',0,'Qg==','35da5ue7',1,0,'',19,0,0),(7091,1001,27,488,0,'64.12.116.198',1142214433,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i built my own  chicken house- i dont know how handy you are with tools but there pretty simple to build. all you need is a little lumber and your wire and some tin for a roof.','',0,'Qg==','201tyqnu',1,0,'',488,0,0),(7098,844,5,487,0,'202.180.83.7',1142236605,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.caft.org.uk/fur-detective.html\">http://www.caft.org.uk/fur-detective.html</a><!-- m -->','',0,'Qg==','27d5uwd0',1,0,'',487,0,0),(7122,844,5,634,0,'216.12.83.169',1142296362,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> It is OK as long as the fur is not from endangered species. I have a natural fur winter hat and I like it a lot. It is much better then synthetic junk.','',0,'Qg==','1x1ukp2j',1,0,'',634,0,0),(7134,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1142299599,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sevendogs, animals suffer extreme torture for the fur trade. Methods of killing include gassing, anal electrocution or sometimes skinning alive! Prior to this they are kept in horrendous living conditions. Over 40 million animals a year are killed for their fur, more than one animal every second! Do you think this is acceptable? I cannot even begin to imagine the extent of their suffering. Anyone who condones this must have a heart of stone  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->','',0,'Qg==','q5x3b01o',1,0,'',309,0,0),(7168,1012,3,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1142466135,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Stupid comments from anti AR people','As someone who regularly does information stalls, I get to hear a lot of dumb comments from those who oppose us. Please post all stupid comments here. Here are some I can think of right now:\n\nWhat about helping people?\n\nYou\'re all terrorists!\n\nWould you rather we test on humans?\n\nI couldn\'t not eat meat.\n\nReturn that body/Where have you hidden that body?','',0,'Qg==','1m8ja35q',1,0,'',309,0,0),(7179,1012,3,372,0,'24.250.58.162',1142511527,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It doesn\'t hurt animals when you eat meat they\'re already dead.\n\nThis was an actual comment I rec\'d from a meat eater.','',0,'Qg==','70ifxo11',1,0,'',372,0,0),(7187,1012,3,575,0,'81.153.138.235',1142513461,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Going on VeganAngels one.\n\nJust &quot;They\'re already dead&quot; is a common one.\n\n&quot;If you don\'t eat them, other people will, so what\'s the point.&quot;\n\n&quot;Animals have no rights&quot; - yes, I know someone who actually believes that. Thankfully they\'re just on a forum, or they probably wouldn\'t have their manhood anymore.\n\n&quot;They belong on my plate&quot;\n\n&quot;Animals were put on this earth to be eaten by man&quot;...\n\nAnd the stupidity goes on.','',0,'Qg==','1coo5274',1,0,'',575,0,0),(7190,1012,3,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1142522557,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Would you rather us test on humans?\n\nIf they were born into factory farming, they don\'t know any better anyway.\n\nAll of your hair will fall out, you will have heart problems, strokes, bone problems, etc... if you don\'t eat meat.\n\nI can wear leather cause the cow was already dead from the meat we eat','',0,'Qg==','3d6vaw92',1,0,'',444,0,0),(7198,1012,3,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1142531854,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I need the protein to survive.  \n\nWhat the hell do you eat?  I will get bored with salad.\n\nTree hugging freak.\n\nYou know what would make you feel better?  A nice slab of red meat (that one belongs to my mother, when I was pregant and sick.  Imagining throwing up meat made me vomit more).\n\nAnimals don\'t hurt when they die.\n\nAnimals do not feel fear before they die, they accept their fate.\n\nIts an animal!  They were created for us to eat!\n\nI have MILLIONS more....','',0,'Qg==','10563bs5',1,0,'',19,0,0),(7199,1012,3,430,0,'70.108.125.31',1142537514,1,0,0,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;discolisious&quot;]I need the protein to survive.  \n\nWhat the hell do you eat?  I will get bored with salad.\n\nTree hugging freak.\n\nYou know what would make you feel better?  A nice slab of red meat (that one belongs to my mother, when I was pregant and sick.  Imagining throwing up meat made me vomit more).\n\nAnimals don\'t hurt when they die.\n\nAnimals do not feel fear before they die, they accept their fate.\n\nIts an animal!  They were created for us to eat!\n\nI have MILLIONS more....[/quote]\n\nYes! I have been called a hippy tree hugging freak so many times on other message boards. \n\n&quot;Their animals&quot;\n\n&quot; why are they made out of meat then&quot; (when I hear this....Ahhh Ignorance)\n\nthe main thing I hear is &quot; But their meat taste soooooooo goood&quot;','',0,'Qg==','38ufwrjp',1,0,'',430,0,0),(7205,1012,3,309,0,'195.93.21.3',1142540377,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I forgot about the leather thing &quot;you\'re all wearing leather&quot; and they don\'t believe you when you say your not. And how could I have forgotten the classic one from my father &quot;I wish you were normal and ate meat&quot;  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->','',0,'Qg==','1ppygi1h',1,0,'',309,0,0),(7209,1012,3,372,0,'24.250.58.162',1142541177,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have actually heard all of those but only posted my favorite stupid remark. \n\nA close second is &quot;Well, what do you eat?&quot;\n\nI particularly love it when a really skinny person says I laugh and say &quot;Apparently more than you!&quot; \n\nAt that point they are usually so shocked they sit their and listen.  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'Qg==','1doy1lk0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(7210,1012,3,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1142541651,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I hate the &quot;What do you eat?&quot; one.  I still haven\'t come up with a good response to that yet.\n\nAnd this one too, it\'s so irratating, so hard to explain to the stupid people that ask it:\n\n&quot;What about the plant\'s feelings?&quot;\n\nI always get, &quot;I\'ll have you eating meat by the end of the day/week/etc&quot; too','',0,'Qg==','1lls0nnz',1,0,'',444,0,0),(7212,1012,3,372,0,'24.250.58.162',1142541833,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Seamoss,\n\nCounter it with \n\n&quot;There is some debate on plants having feelings that is the argument for fruititarianism where one eats fruit which naturally comes off the plant than the actual plant and many avoid seeds also as that is considered the babies, but as far as what I have read I have seen no evidence of a central nervous system, fear, remorse, or sorrow. If I do read some convincing evidence I may consider changing&quot;\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'Qg==','30am9vbb',1,0,'',372,0,0),(7214,1012,3,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1142542195,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thanks, I use that one, and also the fact that the animals you eat consume plants too, so by eating meat, you are killing many more plants then a veggie would.  They never really seem to understand though...','',0,'Qg==','2b9rk8l7',1,0,'',444,0,0),(7215,1012,3,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1142546701,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You know, for every idiotic remark that comes from a non AR source, there is 100 that come from other AR sources.  I can put up with ignorant anti AR people all day (after all, they could be the next vegetarian or leader of a big campaign, etc.) but I despise it so much when people that have the same goals as me shit on people in the same group (pro-ar).  If someone is a vegetarian, thats a great start!  They are doing more good than not a vegetarian, so don\'t make them feel like poo for not being a vegan.  There are too many examples to list, and I think that is rediculous.\n\nAnimals don\'t care what a person looks like, they know the person is helping them.\n\nAnimals don\'t care if a person does not speak proper launguage, they know the person is speaking to them.\n\nAnimals don\'t care if you want to be in the spotlight all the time, true AR people don\'t care about glory, the animals are the glory and the only ones in the spotlight.\n\nBe a media whore and not a whore for the media.\n\nL','',0,'Qg==','fxal2hyu',1,0,'',19,0,0),(7226,933,22,643,0,'66.192.200.2',1142561457,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree in it but there needs to be limitations on it for humans.  I dont believe that people with mental illness should be able to committ legalized suicide and there is no reason for animals to suffer when the time is near.','',0,'Qg==','248lr1nb',1,0,'',643,0,0),(7251,1012,3,642,0,'207.181.170.20',1142614133,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','<!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: -->   I know a lot of born-again christians and this is not a slam on anyone who is religious, but I get alot of bible-thumpers who state that the bible says that God put animals on this earth for human use and consumption.  My rebuttal is simply this:  the bible states blatantly \'thou shalt not kill\'.  Gee, sharp stuff, what do you think the consumption of meat requires?  And also, God himself would objet to the VANITY people display when they wear fur and leather items.  DUH!','',0,'Qg==','18chbrha',1,0,'',642,0,0),(7417,880,15,652,0,'63.68.34.253',1143047633,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I think God intended for us to use animals for our benefit.  I don\'t think He intended unnecessary cruelty, though.\n\nI believe Jesus was a meateater, as well.  I cannot prove this, however.','',0,'Qg==','jdhfrss8',1,0,'',652,0,0),(7419,880,15,376,0,'83.172.208.133',1143048631,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Well, no-one has ever proved the existence or non-existence of &quot;god&quot; so the whole issue is a non-issue in my view.\n\nNo-one knows exactly who Jesus was (even his origins, i.e. who is father was, is highly disputed) nor whether he WAS an Essene or not. \n\nAs to god... well, there are SO many different kinds of gods worshipped in the world that it makes one\'s head swim. One thing that is practical is that one can take one\'s pick. If one believes in a god, then one can choose the one who put animals on earth to be eaten, or the one who did not put animals on the earth to be eaten. It\'s very practical. There\'s always a god somewhere to back up our beliefs.\n\nInstead of turning to a maybe non-existent god, perhaps it would be better if people made up their OWN minds about things and figured out their own ethics. Self-responsibility is what that is called. Taking responsibility for our own actions instead blaming our actions on something else.','',0,'Qg==','3gmmobp6',1,1143049368,'',376,1,0),(7421,880,15,541,0,'24.3.40.232',1143048906,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','JESUS! <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> I love this topic. Nothing can be proved.','',0,'Qg==','4lmrgxdv',1,0,'',541,0,0),(7424,1012,3,652,0,'63.68.34.253',1143053174,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;veganbrat&quot;:wyebtwwm]:head banging:   I know a lot of born-again christians and this is not a slam on anyone who is religious, but I get alot of bible-thumpers who state that the bible says that God put animals on this earth for human use and consumption.  My rebuttal is simply this:  the bible states blatantly \'thou shalt not kill\'.  Gee, sharp stuff, what do you think the consumption of meat requires?  And also, God himself would objet to the VANITY people display when they wear fur and leather items.  DUH![/quote:wyebtwwm]\n\nActually, God commanded His people frequently to make a sacrifice or burnt offering of animals.','',0,'gA==','wyebtwwm',1,0,'',652,0,0),(7440,1012,3,642,0,'207.181.170.20',1143123433,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[code:2kfs959z]Actually, God commanded His people frequently to make a sacrifice or burnt offering of animals[/code:2kfs959z]\n\nIn those interpretations, God is portrayed as sadistic and self-serving.  I think the new testiment does not translate the old scriptures accurately and since the old scriptures are being retranslated and old  tablets have been uncovered and translated, they are finding evidence that Jesus was more of a loving, free spirit and may have been the first vegan.  (One could only hope) He showed more compassion for humans and animals alike than his supposedly God-fearing counterparts.  It\'s these new tablets and interpretations that most mainstream Christians are trying to supress, because it does not go with the women oppressing, animal sacrificing piety of the versions we are familiar with.  These new revelations express just the exact [i:2kfs959z]opposite[/i:2kfs959z] which is fine by me.  The God I like to follow is the most loving being this world will ever know.','',0,'IIA=','2kfs959z',1,0,'',642,0,0),(7441,1012,3,558,0,'195.26.247.3',1143123808,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;veganbrat&quot;:2rui4si4][code:2rui4si4]Actually, God commanded His people frequently to make a sacrifice or burnt offering of animals[/code:2rui4si4]\n\nThe God I like to follow is the most loving being this world will ever know.[/quote:2rui4si4]\n\n\nSo is mine, both of them. Goddess and God. Not located up in heaven but in every person, animal, flower, the earth, the seas and the stars.\n\nI really don\'t care what peoples religious views are a long as they dont use them as an excuse to rape the earth.','',0,'gIA=','2rui4si4',1,0,'',558,0,0),(7458,880,15,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1143286540,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Non-existance of omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god can be proven. \n\nGod can\'t be omnipotent, because:\n- he can\'t change laws of mathematics (e.g. make 1+1=3)\n- can\'t prove his omnipotence\n- can\'t produce finite proof of his infinite knowledge or presence\n\nGod can\'t be omniscient, because:\n- he can\'t know for sure he\'s the only god\n- he can\'t know that there\'s no god above him\n\nGod may not be omnipresent, because:\n- there may be other universes, completely seperate from ours\n\nBut there is no reason not to believe in slightly less than perfect god. In fact: if we ever find out the answer to the question &quot;does (slightly imperfect) god exist&quot;, the answer will be &quot;yes&quot;. If we don\'t find anything like god, we will never know it doesn\'t exist. But we may one day find convincing evidence for existance of extremely powerful life form, much like god.\n\nAnyway, god didn\'t write the Bible, humans did. If god chose to reveal himself to us, he could do a lot better and perhaps put an updated DVD version of Bible under the bed of each of us. One can only speculate that god either doesn\'t want to reveal himself, is unable to do so, or doesn\'t exist. I could easily understand if god doesn\'t want to reveal himself, because doing so would in effect destroy our free will (who would choose to do evil, if existance of god was proven beyond any doubt? there would be no &quot;free will&quot; anymore).','',0,'gIA=','2zuqirvc',1,0,'',111,0,0),(7465,936,3,643,0,'72.240.101.21',1143400157,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:3dbtfrut]OK playing devils advocate nothing is fool proof. \n\nEven pitch forks can kill for instance a mouse it happened to me once. The reason I can get over that is it is not mass killing and it was not intentional I relocated the rest of the family and made sure the mom didn\'t abandon the rest of the babies. I even fed them daily and provided water. However smaller technology does have less of an impact. I have been gardening over 20 yrs. I managed to kill one baby mouse by accident. While that one did suffer I can take pride in the fact that my mini farm killed one animal in 20 yrs. Mistakes happen and at times have bad results. The problem as stated before is people do not care. I actually use various noisemakers before I start ground breaking to attempt to scare anything in the way. There are also hand tillers available which take little effort and create ground vibrations as you use them and going slower lets the animals get out of the way. Providing water on and food on your farm can help keep certain animals away from crops. Also companion planting helps keep things away. For instance Horn worms common in my area on tomatoes hate basil so you plant tomatoes with basil interspersed and no tomato horn worm. Of course I plant 2 extra tomato plants and let the horn worms come they turn into a beatiful moth. I also release ladybugs and praying mantis to help control the bug population without using pesticides which kills not only bugs but birds and some small mammals. I think some people would disapprove of the treatment of the bugs I release as they need to be flown in via mail and then are refrigerated 24 hours before release. I know it sounds odd but this puts them into a semi hibrenation almost and then when released into nature they do not stray far. Some people may be uncomfortable putting bugs in their refrigerators but you get used to it  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nWhile some of these methods may seem barbaric or odd the small amt of harm it causes is better than the mass number if I used pesticides and killed everything in my path not to mention the harm to soil, water, and people.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:3dbtfrut]\n\n\nI will tell you what, veganangel_RI,  I might not agree with alot of what you say but you do practice what you preach.  not many people do.  that is something to be admired for','',0,'gA==','3dbtfrut',1,0,'',643,0,0),(7501,1012,3,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1143582153,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I saw this shirt and thought about this post on the forum <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n[url:eihj7t04]http&#58;//www&#46;cafepress&#46;com/buy/animal+rights/-/pv_design_details/pg_4/id_7365530/opt_/fpt_/c_/hlv_t[/url:eihj7t04]','',0,'EA==','eihj7t04',1,0,'',444,0,0),(7503,1012,3,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1143605573,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','OMG I am buying the infant sized one and one for my other son, I love it!!!\n\nThank You!!!','',0,'EA==','2n2fj9ao',1,0,'',19,0,0),(7513,1012,3,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1143645480,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I found this one yesturday too.  Anyone who lives in the midwest US will understand.  I\'ve been giggling about  it since I saw it. \n\n[url:25iygvis]http&#58;//www&#46;cafepress&#46;com/dairyfreex[/url:25iygvis]','',0,'EA==','25iygvis',1,0,'',444,0,0),(7555,457,12,626,0,'82.35.181.172',1143846722,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','\'\'I\'ve been reading the Guardian (Weekly) for over twenty years. It\'s the best newspaper around in order to know what\'s going on in the world. \'\'\n\nThe Guardian is rubbish, if you want a mainstream paper try the Indy.  I always read the non-mainstream press, there is plently of sites/ mags out there!!  Schnews is great, as is Indymedia and libcom.org and many others specificially on AR.\n\nBTW, I got the Indy today (30th) that had an article saying how vital vivisection is...\n\nEdit- the women who wrote the initial article is a very solid women who does some excellent anarchist-ecological based social ecology work, an excellent political theory, not to sure on her anti-veggie comments.','',0,'EA==','2jza8iba',1,0,'',626,0,0),(7558,457,12,487,0,'202.180.83.13',1143964062,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think the article highlights alot of good points of vegetarianism which wouldn\'t be brought up in the coporate complex media usually.','',0,'EA==','1rki12kw',1,0,'',487,0,0),(7559,1012,3,487,0,'202.180.83.13',1143965023,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','those tshirts are cool.\n\nJesus came to earth to stop the animal sacrifice I think it says in the bible.\nLamb of God and all that..\n\nMy fav. is: &quot;if god didn\'t intend us to eat animals, then why would he make them outta meat?&quot;\n\nMy first ever leafleting and I encountered someone who said vivisection was okay because &quot;Animals don\'t have souls&quot;.\n\nIs there ANY animal friendly churches, and I mean in a serious way?','',0,'EA==','39erlhbo',1,0,'',487,0,0),(7563,457,12,626,0,'82.35.181.172',1143979800,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sorry, but the article is shite, the only good section of it is its criticism of PETAs campaigns.  The rest is simplistic digging at veggies.  If this is the same women as I think, this is very very badly done for her.','',0,'EA==','284tc5pf',1,0,'',626,0,0),(7566,457,12,487,0,'202.180.83.13',1144038220,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:1j33w4ct]The food, unlike the tasteless, bland rubbish often served up in such places, was delicious. Unusually for meatless cuisine, it had flavour and texture, and had even been seasoned.[/quote:1j33w4ct]\n\nactually is the only bit I\'m talking about.\n\nAnd its true, often vegetarian resturaunts are run by religious cults like the Krisnas or weirder (at least in the country I live). So they don\'t includ anything thats \'stimulating\' eg: Garlic, Curry, Shalots, Onions and anything else with taste. These sorts of places do give veggies a bad name.\n\nMaybe I\'m fussier because of my training as chef..','',0,'gA==','1j33w4ct',1,0,'',487,0,0),(7572,457,12,626,0,'82.35.181.172',1144099986,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Its the same in some parts of London, the good veggie restaurants tend to be like religious linked ones.  They do serve garlic though.\n\n\'\'Garlic, Curry, Shalots, Onions\'\' --  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: -->  what meal can be made [b:1g32eqjn]without[/b:1g32eqjn] them??','',0,'QA==','1g32eqjn',1,0,'',626,0,0),(7575,457,12,575,0,'81.153.138.0',1144101482,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don\'t read any papers...it\'s probably best just to watch the news, more likely to have no bias comments.','',0,'QA==','194ns5ml',1,0,'',575,0,0),(7576,457,12,626,0,'82.35.181.172',1144144941,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','The news is just as bad, the papers and news are more often then not all linked in.  Look at SkyNews (in UK), owned by Murdoch who owns most of the tabloid papers in the UK.  \n\nLook for independent media on the net, its free and much less biased and will find stuff you never knew was going on!!','',0,'QA==','1zo4a81g',1,0,'',626,0,0),(7581,457,12,376,0,'83.172.205.46',1144253553,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Concerning the Guardian Weekly, for the first time there was a letter to the editor this week complaining about their odd attitude towards Animal Rights. I will write a letter as well soon (the very next time there\'s another one-sided article.)','',0,'QA==','2aga6u83',1,0,'',376,0,0),(7615,352,1,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1144381782,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cronin are you an alien or are you just wishing for some probing?\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QA==','24k43rxi',1,0,'',372,0,0),(7616,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1144383351,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Chris many people are gardening this way nowadays or the companies would not exist like Gardens Alive which I get natural fertilizers and bugs from. I buy a fair share but not enough to keep a company in business  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QA==','3v40unht',1,0,'',372,0,0),(7650,754,18,643,0,'72.240.101.21',1144459539,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','quiting smoking','Try using the patch.  I used to chew about a can a day.  They patch is about a 8-10 week program and it will decrease your cravings.  It is the hardest thing that I ever did.  Good luck.  If you do quit, you will feel a ton better.  Trust me.','',0,'QA==','2i6apw92',1,0,'',643,0,0),(7658,936,3,643,0,'72.240.101.21',1144508677,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I read in another post that you have a wildlife area that you take care of.  How big is it?  Do you have any help?  tell me a little bit more about it','',0,'QA==','tiproa6t',1,0,'',643,0,0),(7667,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1144605766,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','First thing I should tell you is that I live directly across from a brackish water area (brackish is salt but low content some fresh and salt water babies can grow there) it has recently been altered for the better by the Army Core of Engineers. There is a field right behind the beach. Then a road and my home/wildlife habitat. It is a decent size but severly damaged right now due to bad flooding last year. No humans were hurt just lots of home and land damage. I grow a variety of things on it. Herbs, veggies, fruits, and just about anything else. I use all natural planting methods no herbicides or pesticides. I have a waterfall but it is not functioning now working on repairs. I also put in a small phony beach around the waterfall which is repaired since flooding for the birds to take sandbaths. I have about 10 birdhouses. I also have a bat house(not roosted in yet but we have bats frequenting the area bats take up 10 yrs to adopt a new home that is added I only added it 2 yrs ago). We are visited by all the local birds we have hawks and eagles in the area they swoop in catch prey and leave. I hire help every year but do most of it myself. I have a couple of volunteers who help out in early spring for a few days which is when most work needs to be done. I also have housing for feral cats which I give as much medical care as I can people assume it is good to drop off their unwanteds here. No I am not a collector by any means (I know you did not ask but a ? I have gotten in the past) I currently have 1 indoor cat 1 indoor dog and two feral cats completely outdoors. \n\nList of some things I grow:\n\nStrawberries, raspberries, gooseberries, grapes, peaches, pears, wugelia, roses, marshmallows, firepokers, porcelain berries, trumpet vines, cucmbers, tomatoes, lettuce, kale, basil, dandelions(specifically planted neighbors hate me  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> ) cherry tree, kiwi vines, honeysuckle, parsley, rosemary, chives, oregano, thyme, lavender, onions, garlic, orange tree (one no produce yet still young), butterfly bushes, butterfly weed, elderberries, turtle\'s head \n\nwell thats a majority I also have other various flowers and herbs about 10 pine trees and some other minor things.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QA==','20q450bb',1,0,'',372,0,0),(7668,936,3,643,0,'72.240.101.21',1144633837,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','thats neat.  I wish I had the time to do that or just the land for that matter.  I used to live on the outerbanks of NC,  I know all about brackish water.','',0,'QA==','3igd71k3',1,0,'',643,0,0),(7669,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1144641293,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Chris, \n\nThats cool. I also grow asparagus and apples not quite sure how I forgot to list those duh! \n\nIf you are ever in RI area you are welcome to come dig in the dirt  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QA==','1e6zr0jq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(7693,756,15,683,0,'69.211.89.40',1144782207,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There are so many dangers, it\'s just not worth letting them go unsupervised. Of course, the key word is &quot;unsupervised.&quot; My cats hate the leash, but I can take all 3 of them out at the same time and provided I watch so they don\'t wander too far, they get to be outside and I don\'t worry about them. \n\nOne thing you have to remember about cats is they\'re not a natural species. They would not exist without human interference. Therefore, I think their &quot;natural&quot; place is to be at home, well cared for.\n\n\nEDIT\nAs far as indoor vs. outdoor dogs and furnature/floor dogs... Well, if my dog is on the couch I\'ll sit somewhere else. We\'ve probably spoiled him, but I just can\'t make him lie on the floor, what with his Old Bones (which are probably just fine, but like I said, we spoil our animals.) He is also rarely outside without company, because either we sit out with him or the neighbor kids come out and play with him.','',0,'QA==','su3gkg6i',1,0,'',683,0,0),(7705,754,18,683,0,'68.76.157.121',1144821982,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I started smoking when was 11, and quit last October, just shy of 10 years! At one point I was smoking 2.5 packs a day. This may sound harsh, but you may think you want to quit, but unless you really, really, really, *really* want it, you won\'t be successful.\n\nGum helped me some, but honestly, you mostly just have to tough out the cravings as best as you can. It\'s not easy. At one point shortly after I started to quit, I hurled a glass ashtray across the room.\n\nWhen I first started to quit, I could get about a week before I *had* to have one. Then after awhile, it was 2 weeks. The periods kept getting longer and longer. Don\'t expect perfection, because of you fLIck up and have one, you\'re more likely to give up and have another. And another. And so on.','',0,'QA==','2hudrkjk',1,0,'',683,0,0),(7710,754,18,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1144851666,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I just up and quit.  I decided I was done, it was a nasty habit.  Shortly after that my father (who had been smoke free for over 7 years) developed small cell lung cancer.  That was all the incentive I needed.\n\nL','',0,'QA==','2hjcorm2',1,0,'',19,0,0),(7733,754,18,376,0,'83.172.205.46',1144910334,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Stefanie: I stopped smoking in January this year. I started smoking when I was 12 years old. I\'m now 46. That was a long time...\n\nI was rarely a heavy smoker - I can\'t recall ever smoking a pack a day, and towards the end of my smoking life I was smoking three a day.\n\nI joined <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.quitnet.com\">www.quitnet.com</a><!-- w --> (without them I would never have managed). The first day I cried like a baby. It was like a mourning period. \n\nI had two mantras:\n\n1) &quot;[b:myl4m4zb]I\'m not quitting because I have to, but because I CAN!!!&quot;[/b:myl4m4zb] This mantra gave me self-empowerment. Really it was very important for me. I even wrote it on a piece of paper and carried it around with me.\n\n2) [b:myl4m4zb]&quot;If I still want to smoke tomorrow, I will&quot;. [/b:myl4m4zb] This mantra gave me permission to start again... but as EACH time I wanted to smoke, I would say the same thing... the tomorrow became the today and the tomorrow never came. I still say this to myself regularly. Giving myself permission made it easier.\n\n I drank loads of water. Loads and loads. Every time I wanted a smoke, I would drink water. And the first few days, I cut straws and pretended to smoke them and stub them out. That helped too.\n\nAnd everytime I felt I was going to crack, I logged into <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.quitnet.com\">www.quitnet.com</a><!-- w --> and posted there. One doesn\'t wait more than five minutes before getting loads and loads of support. \n\nI still miss the buggars. But I know I will never start again. The chemicals in cigarettes are SO dangerous. They don\'t only cause lung cancer, but all sorts of other health problems and other cancers. IT\'S JUST NOT WORTH IT!!! They are not your friends... they are your enemies who pretend to be your friends.\n\nOne more thing, but that is because I smoked for so long (which is not your case). I call myself a smoker who doesn\'t smoke. I doubt I will ever have a non-smoker mentality completely. A bit like an alcoholic or a drug addict. One is never completely clear from the addiction. Allowing myself to be a smoker who doesn\'t smoke, also allows me to retain my personality. Smoking is not only a physical thing, it\'s a psychological need. As I have not found a replacement yet for this need, I just cope with it. And feel PROUD that I\'m coping!!! The pride is also a great help.\n\nGOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!','',0,'QA==','myl4m4zb',1,0,'',376,0,0),(7738,754,18,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1144940659,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','congrats to all you who have quit!','',0,'QA==','3rghmpif',1,0,'',444,0,0),(7921,102,18,554,0,'24.200.249.155',1145745937,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','just getting caught up on this thread... I\'m vegetarian AND I\'M A HUGE CANDY FREAK.  Don\'t smarties have chocolate (milk...) I ask this cause I don\'t have a box in the house to check the ingredients.  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: --> \n\nEspecially that in the UK, smarties are made by nestle and contain milk chocolate... isn\'t that wrong for a vegan? or did I miss something...','',0,'QA==','1lhlyr7g',1,0,'',554,0,0),(7922,102,18,554,0,'24.200.249.155',1145759715,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A571727\">http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A571727</a><!-- m -->','',0,'QA==','2mn66oqp',1,0,'',554,0,0),(7958,102,18,444,0,'71.136.73.148',1145990478,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thanks for the list!\n\nAnd in the US smarties do not have any chocolate in them!','',0,'QA==','o05u1ydn',1,0,'',444,0,0),(8155,936,3,709,0,'24.215.164.168',1146699173,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: How many of you support death sentence for animal killer','[quote=&quot;violet13&quot;:1jwvdmhi]I am just curious.\nHow many of you strongly support death sentence of animal killers if law allow it?[/quote:1jwvdmhi]\n\nKilling is killing, wheather by the hunter or by the state, of a human animal or of any other sentient creature, and it is allways wrong, except for the mercy killing sometimes and of course in self defence. The feelings of revenge, resentment and hate are negative emotions, which we all suffer from, but should try to overcome. They will slowly eat your body and your soul.','',0,'gA==','1jwvdmhi',1,1146747795,'',709,1,0),(8171,936,3,709,0,'24.215.164.168',1146710103,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','To clarify my post above, I am against death penalty period, for hundreds of reasons, same reasons why I think that an animal who kills a human animal should [b:3l6yjnzi]not[/b:3l6yjnzi] be killed.\n\nThe real killer question that we should keep asking is: Why are some people, who had opened the doors to free some animals from the torture prisons, being called terrorists and are locked up in jails, while the executives of these multi billion animal prisons are playing golf, drinking margaritas at the Bahamas and getting richer by the minute?','',0,'QA==','3l6yjnzi',1,0,'',709,0,0),(8185,933,22,709,0,'69.22.239.154',1146766688,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:29we52c2][quote=&quot;puppylove&quot;:29we52c2]A Dogs Prayer\nBy Beth Norman Harris\n\n Treat me kindly, my beloved master, for no heart in all the world is more grateful for kindness than the loving heart of me. Do not break my spirit with a stick, for though I should lick your hand between the blows, your patience and understanding will more quickly teach me the things you would have me do. Speak to me often, for your voice is the world\'s sweetest music, as you must know by the fierce wagging of my tail when your footsteps falls upon my waiting ear. When it is cold and wet, please take me inside, for I am now a domesticated animal, no longer used to bitter elements. And I ask no greater glory than the privilege of sitting at your feet beside the hearth. Though had you no home, I would rather follow you through ice and snow than rest upon the softest pillow in the warmest home in all the land, for you are my god and I am your devoted worshiper.  Keep my pan filled with fresh water, for although I should not reproach you were it dry, I cannot tell you when I suffer thirst.  Feed me clean food, that I may stay well, to romp and play and do your bidding, to walk by your side, and stand ready, willing and able to protect you with my life should your life be in danger. And, beloved master, should the great Master see fit to deprive me of my health or sight, do not turn me away from you. Rather hold me gently in your arms as skilled hands grant me the merciful boon of eternal rest -- and I will leave you knowing with the last breath I drew, my fate was ever safest in your hands.\nBy Beth Norman Harris[/quote:29we52c2]\n\nThat made me cry. ;_;[/quote:29we52c2]\n\nYes, the Dogs Prayer brought the tears in my eyes too. Thank you for sharing. <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->','',0,'gA==','29we52c2',1,0,'',709,0,0),(8197,933,22,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1146780214,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Euthanasia should have a simple answer, but you are all right.  It is very difficult to decide.  Animals can\'t speak (at least not in our language) so we must do so for them.  I would never let one of my pets suffer for the comfort in knowing that i can keep them with me.  \n\nIf a human clearly desires to die because of pain and illness, who are we to tell him &quot;no&quot;?\n\nThe poem made my heart ache.  I don\'t know why i always read these things they always make me cry.  That one is definitely going up on the board at work.','',0,'gA==','3jz3nemp',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8198,936,3,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1146780948,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don\'t support the death penalty, but SEVERE prison terms.  As much as if you would hurt a child that is defensless.  The penalties for animal cruelty are bordering on ridiculous (at least in Canada). We need serious reform and EDUCATION in prisons.','',0,'gA==','wpvsdsoq',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8237,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.25.12',1146893367,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Sick Lady Kills Defenseless Puppy','If this doesn\'t make you believe in animal rights I don\'t know what will.  WARNING EXTREMELY GROSS!\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.steakandcheese.com/content/detail.asp?ID=28536&amp;type=1&amp;page=3\">http://www.steakandcheese.com/content/d ... e=1&amp;page=3</a><!-- m --> \n\nIf anyone knows if this lady was caught please tell me.','',0,'gA==','1rnnqpk8',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8240,1128,27,575,0,'81.156.157.17',1146901350,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Is that the same person as the kitten one?\n\nGah, sick fucking bitch...','',0,'gA==','3beta0h9',1,0,'',575,0,0),(8243,1128,27,541,0,'24.3.40.232',1146935506,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','what the fuck. i hope she gets an inoperable tumor at the base of her spine. THEN has a stroke walking through the middle of traffic right after she finds out, her being paralyzed making her not being able to move...then gets hit by a mack truck. after she\'s in the hospital i\'d hope someone would give her some cyanide and slash her fucking throat. that makes me fucking sick. you dumb cunt. christ. people like that do not deserve to live. no life sentencing. no lethal injection. just flat out horrifying death.\n\n <!-- s:whistle: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_whistle.gif\" alt=\":whistle:\" title=\"whistle\" /><!-- s:whistle: -->','',0,'gA==','2lqmhel5',1,0,'',541,0,0),(8244,1128,27,643,0,'72.240.14.57',1146948515,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i can not see the picture, but if she does indeed kill a puppy for no reason then she deserves to go to jail.  You will not get any arguement from me.','',0,'gA==','daawj622',1,0,'',643,0,0),(8247,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.50.150',1146971169,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:2wejhw05]i can not see the picture, but if she does indeed kill a puppy for no reason then she deserves to go to jail.  You will not get any arguement from me.[/quote:2wejhw05]\n\nYou obviously can\'t see the video because if you did you would want her to have the death penalty and not jail.  He has high heels on and smushes the puppy to death.  At the beginning the puppy is alive and you can hear it crying in pain before she sticks her high heel through its eye socket.','',0,'gA==','2wejhw05',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8249,1128,27,704,0,'70.82.86.96',1146983889,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Is it really necessary to post videos from websites which are clearly designed to offend? I mean, unless you plan on reporting the content to the web provider/host, it just seems like voyeurism to me.\n\nHere are some tips from PETA on how to target online cruelty constructively:\n[url:2e1uzjjx]http&#58;//www&#46;peta&#46;org/actioncenter//onlinecruelty&#46;asp[/url:2e1uzjjx]','',0,'EA==','2e1uzjjx',1,1147030452,'',704,4,0),(8251,1128,27,575,0,'81.151.20.228',1146998817,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Well, the site had a disclaimer saying if anyone knew anything to contact the ASPCA...so it obviously doesn\'t tolerate animal cruelty in that sense.','',0,'EA==','1vicndnx',1,0,'',575,0,0),(8252,1128,27,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1147009922,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','This is a \'crush\' movie.  They have a strong following.  There were some people in China that made a bunch that are now hiding, for fear of their lives (or so I have been told).  Type \'crush movie\' into a search engine.','',0,'EA==','20ui77o2',1,0,'',19,0,0),(8261,1128,27,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1147020637,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;BorderCollie89&quot;:1uz79zvi]He has high heels on and smushes the puppy to death.  At the beginning the puppy is alive and you can hear it crying in pain before she sticks her high heel through its eye socket.[/quote:1uz79zvi]I thought I\'d got past being shocked by the evil of human beings but I was wrong. I cannot understand how anyone can want to hurt a defensless little puppy for no reason. This has reduced me to tears, I wish I hadn\'t read about this. I\'m so upset and angry more than ever right now I wish I could wipe humans off the face of this fucked up earth.','',0,'gA==','1uz79zvi',1,0,'',309,0,0),(8263,1128,27,704,0,'70.82.86.96',1147027353,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:2pr8hph3]Well, the site had a disclaimer saying if anyone knew anything to contact the ASPCA...so it obviously doesn\'t tolerate animal cruelty in that sense.[/quote:2pr8hph3]\n\nRegardless of the &quot;disclaimer&quot; that website is designed to be offensive. I mean come on, look at the rest of the content. That video is not up there so that the public can help identify who made it. It\'s up there for shock value and for crushing fetishists to get off on.\n\nMore on crush fetishism here:\n[url:2pr8hph3]http&#58;//en&#46;wikipedia&#46;org/wiki/Crush_Fetishism[/url:2pr8hph3]','',0,'kA==','2pr8hph3',1,0,'',704,0,0),(8274,1128,27,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1147039608,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','To anyone who says violence of any kind is wrong, even towards animal abusers such as this: with all due respect: imagine this is YOUR animal or YOUR child, and kiss my ass!  Put me in a room with this b...h any time.  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> \n\nAnn if you want to sensor this, go ahead, i\'m just letting off a little steam.','',0,'kA==','3g6dfcna',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8280,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.12.155',1147049938,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Eeriel&quot;:2xs9zbp7]Is it really necessary to post videos from websites which are clearly designed to offend? I mean, unless you plan on reporting the content to the web provider/host, it just seems like voyeurism to me.\n\nHere are some tips from PETA on how to target online cruelty constructively:\n[url:2xs9zbp7]http&#58;//www&#46;peta&#46;org/actioncenter//onlinecruelty&#46;asp[/url:2xs9zbp7][/quote:2xs9zbp7]\n\nThe more people that know whats going on out there the better chance that we will have to stop it.  But if you guys want I will edit this topic and remove the video.','',0,'kA==','2xs9zbp7',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8284,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147057430,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','OK I am not watching the video. I already hate the human race so no difference would come. However how many of you are aware these are not the only porn genre videos with animals? There are numerous sites of men and woman having sex with animals in some cases the animals end up dead I remember several years back a discussion at a public place between two men (and I use the term loosely) discussing a video of a guy who was doing chickens and videotaped there deaths after. This type of depravity is not new by any means not to say that excuses it but shock is something I am beyond. Maybe this sounds cruel however if you believe in euthanasia for a rabid animal can we not easily classify these depraved imbeciles just as sick and hope for there euthanasia. Euthanasia is not the only drug that can induce heart attacks if given in sufficient quantities. Legally I know this would be considered murder. But ethically it would be as merciful as putting a rabid raccoon to sleep.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'kA==','1szs6h0p',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8286,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.94.207',1147057925,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Why does everyone keep saying that they hate the human race?  Just because some individuals make animals lives miserable does not make the human race in general bad.  That is like saying that you hate islamic people because they keep killing other people when in reality it is only a few who are doing the killing.\n\nAnyway, the thing you said about two guys banging the chicken and then killing it is extremely gross.  However they will pay for it dearly in hell.  \n\nI just can\'t wait till I get to that rainbow bridge...','',0,'kA==','10kgl6u1',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8287,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147058632,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','BorderCollie\n\nHave you ever gotten really pissed at someone and said &quot;I\'m gonna tear your fucking head off&quot; or something to that respect. Well I know I have. I come here and bitch about hating the human race so I don\'t actually go out and rip someones head off or severely torture some sick fuck who desperately deserves it. A local case names withheld 5 yr old boy was taught to bury cats leaving the head out and run them over with lawnmowers then the father would molest his son. Son grew up doing this thinking it  was &quot;normal&quot; son is now in juvenille hall after being molested by his own father for just under 10 years. Parent did not serve jail time. \n\nI\'ve said it before I\'ll say it again &quot;I hate the human race HATE THEM HATE THEM HATE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!&quot;\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'kA==','22uotmlo',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8288,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.75.164',1147060348,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','You keep saying all these sick stories(the burying the cat thing is very disturbing) and I agree with you that a lot of the human race is truly sick and should never have been created.  I think that if the world only had people like you, me, and a lot of other users on this forum then there would be peace living upon each other and all animals.  But there arn\'t just you and me and we learn to accept sick people in our world.   When I first saw this video I punched a hole in my wall and swore at this lady with every cuss word I know, but that accomplished nothing.  Instead of getting your anger out by saying you hate the human race, try and do something about the problem.','',0,'kA==','2euon5ua',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8290,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147062235,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Actually I do \n\n1) I run a wildlife habitat\n\n2) I have participated in actions \n\n3) I frequently speak with govt officials to help make laws stricter or I would not such depraved stories I could list many more and I helped put a local man in prison for beating a cat to death with a baseball bat\n\n4) And of course yes the traditional demos\n\n5) Also active in enviro work\n\n6) I lecture at school on how to treat wildlife\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'kA==','1b7es1fq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8292,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.75.164',1147062442,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sorry VeganAngel_RI.  Didn\'t mean to offend you.  I think this world needs more people like you who do things for their community.','',0,'kA==','1rrqjfaq',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8293,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147062864,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','LOL\n\nI come of quick at times but not offended. I deal with lots of scum so used to an argumentitive tone especially online but I generally don\'t mean anything by it. I am stir crazy right now as I am out on vacation/sick leave. (Was recently hospitalized for severe allergic reaction). I am ok now just achy and coughy. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'kA==','1t338lav',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8304,1128,27,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1147089094,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;BorderCollie89&quot;:3cdrxuor]Why does everyone keep saying that they hate the human race?  Just because some individuals make animals lives miserable does not make the human race in general bad. [/quote:3cdrxuor] The majority of the human race would agree that the sick stories mentioned in this thread are disgusting and should not go unpunished. I agree that the small minority of human beings who would commit such atrocities do not represent the majority of the human race. However the majority of the human race [b:3cdrxuor]do[/b:3cdrxuor] eat meat and dairy products. If it wasn\'t for them we wouldn\'t have billions of animals suffering in factory farms. It is all the meat eater faults that animals have to suffer the trauma of live exports and it is also their fault that Jill Phipps was killed whilst protesting against this. If people stopped eating meat and dairy there would be no reason to continue factory farming and live exports and it would all stop. Every single person who eats meat, fish, dairy and eggs is responsible for this suffering and that is why I hate the human race.\n\nOf course I don\'t hate vegans and I don\'t hate meat eaters who are unaware of the suffering they are causing. I don\'t understand the mentality of those who are aware yet continue to consume the products of animal abuse. Also I hate the government who lie to protect animal abusers ie the vivisection industry and also because the government promote meat, dairy and fish eating by lying about the health benefits and giving subsidies to farmers. Without these subsidies many more people would think twice about eating animal products because they would be very expensive.','',0,'wA==','3cdrxuor',1,0,'',309,0,0),(8305,1128,27,554,0,'63.250.112.228',1147090319,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Back to the little puppy in the video:\n\nI hope peta uses a frame of the film (and i cried myself to sleep last night, hugging one of my dogs) with the caption:\n\n&quot;this is what happens to unwanted animals; spay and neuter!&quot;\n\nIf I felt ill at the sight, then everyone should!  Voyeurism out the window: WE HAVE TO SHOW PEOPLE WHAT THEY WON`T SEE ON THEIR OWN.','',0,'wA==','2ifkr4tu',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8307,1128,27,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1147092596,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','At least one of those bitches was caught:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/04/wcats04.xml&amp;sSheet=/news/2006/03/04/ixworld.html\">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nDidn\'t actually see the video, but: send any one of these bitches to me and I\'ll make a video of my own <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'wA==','3tavdkkk',1,0,'',111,0,0),(8308,1128,27,554,0,'63.250.112.228',1147093198,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Quote from the article: &quot; However, there are no regulations preventing cruelty to animals.&quot;\n\nAnybody see the real problem?  \n\nI know alot of people say that strict laws are not a deturrant, but at least we could have the satisfaction of seeing these people rot in jail.  And I mean long prison terms, not a $$ fine.  The same as if they had harmed a human child.  THen people would turn their attention to slaugtherhouses, labs,  etc, and say \n\n&quot;but isn`t that heinous too?&quot;  Then we could see some real change.\n\nI am going after the canadian policitians, starting with my home town.\n\nDo the animals a favor, and do the same, please.','',0,'wA==','hfpbpuiy',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8309,1128,27,554,0,'63.250.112.228',1147093719,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','FreeQ,\n\nNeed a cameraman for your video?  I am at your service.','',0,'wA==','39n4izmf',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8317,1128,27,686,0,'172.209.77.90',1147126470,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I cant belive i actually just clicked the link that bordercollie89 put up,my stomach is doing somersaults,my heart is totally broken and im so disturbed by it.What is wrong with people?. As im writing this the tears are welling in my eyes again.If only i,we had the power to be able to stop this now before its too late,god if your listening please help put an end to this sick babaric evil.I didnt even have time to stop the video it came up straight away,i m not going to be able to sleep now,please let this (excuse my language) fucking sick excuse for a low life fucking human being be caught. If i could find her mark my words i would put a gun to her head and blow her fucking brains out.I fucking hate the human race all we do is destroy corrupt and kill,for the sake of greed and wat seems to be sick fucking fetishes,and vanity,may god strike all the fucking tossas down that bring harm to our sentient friends\n <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->  <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: --> \n\n\nRest in peace our animal friends one day you will see there will be an end to it.','',0,'wA==','1uqwdf4h',1,0,'',686,0,0),(8322,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147128449,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Masie,\n\nI somewhat agree but you are a bit wrong it is a growing number into these sick &quot;fetishes&quot; humans are getting worse not better. I did some thinking trying to remember where I heard about the chicken video. I never saw but I heard about it at work, it was played at a bachelor party before the strippers arrived. \n\nLike Disc said these things are not uncommon type in farm sex and search there are tons of videos of men and women enjoying sex with animals and many times leaving the animals traumatized or dead. Humans are the worst virus on earth.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','cotamgtg',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8327,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.60.204',1147140463,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Why do people like having sex with animals?  Am I the only one who thinks that beastliality is one of the grosest things on the face of this earth?','',0,'wA==','20vxx0d3',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8328,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147151120,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don\'t think there is a logical explanation. Why do serial killers kill? Why do child molestors molest children? Some of us might be able to see the action behind the action but still not fully comprehend the second action. At times there is not even a definitive first action that might cause a person to skew from normal reality for some it may be chemical imbalances or maybe part of their brain is dead, the part that makes people know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. I see no difference between these people and a rabid dog they both need to be euthanized as incurable. For some actions there is no apologizng for death is the only answer. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','bc8id2xi',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8329,1128,27,716,0,'71.131.36.32',1147153281,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','You always have an answer for everything VeganAngel_RI.  By the way, I have convinced a number of my friends to go vegan or some how do something to help animals with the story of the kid running over the kittens with a lawn mower.  I hope that those kittens did not die in vain.','',0,'wA==','2tza675t',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8334,1128,27,554,0,'63.250.112.228',1147193184,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I agree with vegan angel that these &quot;people&quot; are sick and deserve nothing better than to be disposed of.  But you guys know that this is only a very small % of our massive population, right?  There have always been freaks and there will always be.  I\'m sorry to say.  Isn`t the big picture more worth concentrating on?','',0,'wA==','2cys0gc1',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8339,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147196429,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I started pursuing animal rights about 28 years ago. In varying levels as I was a child obviously and did not really get what it meant. I remember going to seashores with my parents and releasing fishing traps with them and when I asked them why the fish were being caught my parents told me a college was studying them but it was cruel to catch things that way so we released them. Ironically at that time I was eatting meat as I said I didn\'t really get it back then but it was the begining evolution of my mind. I ate meat because my freinds did it at school and I thought it was normal I was raised before school as a vegetarian by 8th grade I went back to vegetarianism on my own. I have studied people and their relationship to animals in some form all my life. Marie says its a small percentage and this is true but it is a growing percentage. Frankly there are no manufacturing companies in my area that test so harassing them is out. There is some in the next state but I can\'t travel that far often enough to be a nuissance. In my area the main abuses come from total psychos like those cats that were killed. There are not to many that leave dogs tied in yards in my town and the one that is already has several neighbors that care for the dog so that it gets walked daily as the owner won\'t do it and she has a good dog house. My other local neighbor that was really neglectful of animals has ceased getting more as I kept stealing them. That person supplied me with pets for close to 20 yrs. Lots of sex abuse cases involve animal abuse an adult will often kill an animal in front of a child to intimidate the child into cooperating. These children need to be reeducated after through volunteers and trained professionals. It is by no means uncommon. The regular abuse most people are aware of is just not that common so most of the abuses I see come from people who major criminals. The cats in that case did somewhat die in vain as the original crime the molestor was let go on probation but the child was convicted of animal cruelty and is serving time. The right person did not go to jail in my opinion the child should have been remanded to psychiatric care not juve hall.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','3lrb55r2',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8340,1128,27,554,0,'63.250.112.228',1147197558,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','VeganAngel, I see similarities in our histories and I am sure others will relate as well.  When I say concentrate on the bigger picture, I want to be sure not to be misunderstood: I am speaking of these people who make videos torturing small animals.  I was keeping in the context of the thread. I am aware that cruelty is rampant and hidden behind closed doors.  That to me is the bigger picture.   I find myself constantly scanning the yards and farms around where I live in search of an animal I could help.\n\nI haven`t been at this for very long, compared to others, but we all have to start somewhere right?  I have been an animal lover and defender my whole life, thanks to a mom that taught me the value of life, compassion and empathy.  I have recently given up meat (6 months...) and have never looked back.  I am a changed person.','',0,'wA==','3km5aoyo',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8342,1128,27,626,0,'82.43.49.103',1147198211,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Maybe some has already said this, but I dont find it any worse then what goes on in \'legal\' industrys such as the fur/ meat/ leather/ milk and especially vivisection ones.  Maybe the (supposed) sexual element of it makes it seem worse, I dont know.','',0,'wA==','1optft67',1,0,'',626,0,0),(8343,1128,27,369,0,'70.108.108.253',1147199850,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;sarah123&quot;:34ogvkf7]Maybe some has already said this, but I dont find it any worse then what goes on in \'legal\' industrys such as the fur/ meat/ leather/ milk and especially vivisection ones.  Maybe the (supposed) sexual element of it makes it seem worse, I dont know.[/quote:34ogvkf7]\n\nI view these things in the same light I do these &quot;squish videos.&quot; They are all just as bad, meat, leather and fur industries could even be considered  worse as the animals are often confined and deprived of many things for a great period of time, and slaughter is just as bad. The thing that bothers me, is how an average omnivore would view this video with great disgust, and would most likely react with violence if they came across the person in the act. So why do they completely disregard all other events of suffering?? I guess it could be said that eating meat is socially accepted, which is a great weapon to fight against, but logically its all the same and people are to fucking ignorant and selfish to think otherwise.','',0,'gA==','34ogvkf7',1,0,'',369,0,0),(8344,1128,27,626,0,'82.43.49.103',1147203435,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Meat and its consumption is disconnected from the actual living animal, meat is the red lump or white skinless chunk you buy from the counter- it isnt an animal, just a part, something to be consumed.  With such videos and other vids such as the exposure vids inside labs, the cruelty is right up there and obvious, there is no disconnection, it shocks people.','',0,'gA==','127ds8eg',1,0,'',626,0,0),(8345,1134,27,686,0,'172.200.165.35',1147209722,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Procter n Gamble Boycott Can anyone HELP','Hi was just wondering if there is anyone on here that lives in the Essex area in England, iam helping with a boycott and street collection in Basildon in Essex on August 12th and we could do with more support on this day?\nThere are also various other boycotts in Essex and surrounding areas up and down the country aswell. I dont have the link to hand but type in the search engine UNCAGED RAGE,and all the info will be on there you can contact Max Newton.   \n\n\nALSO REMEMBER THE 20TH OF MAY WORLD BOYCOTT OF PROCTER N GAMBLE,AND IF YOU DO SIT DOWN AND ARE TEMPTED TO MUNCH ON THOSE MOUTH WATERING CRISPS PRINGLES,JUST REMEMBER THE ANIMAL WHO SUFFERED AND DIED TO GIVE YOU THOSE MOUTH WATERING FLAVOURS,AND THE OLAY THAT SMOOTH YOUR WRINKLES <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: --> NO THANKS OLAY I`D RATHER BE OLD AND WRINKLED .','',0,'gA==','at8rrase',1,0,'',686,0,0),(8351,1128,27,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1147213139,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;sarah123&quot;:1ziejj6x]Meat and its consumption is disconnected from the actual living animal, meat is the red lump or white skinless chunk you buy from the counter- it isnt an animal, just a part, something to be consumed.  With such videos and other vids such as the exposure vids inside labs, the cruelty is right up there and obvious, there is no disconnection, it shocks people.[/quote:1ziejj6x]\n\nI like this... I am going to use that argument in my conversations....\n\nDo you think that if you asked that woman who crushed the puppy if she thinks that was evil to do?  My bet, regarless of her anwser, is that she would see the twisted side of her actions, as sick as she is.  \n\nNow on the other hand, if you ask an employee of a slaughterhouse if HE sees his actions as evil, what would he say and think?\n\nI genuanly think that his reflection would go along the lines of this:\n(and again I am speaking of the average employee)\nHey, I go to church, I pay my taxes, I have this job, I feed my family and I never robbed anyone, hell no i\'m not evil!\n\nThat is what we have to realise that the majority of the planet is thinking, they are not cruel, this is [i:1ziejj6x]normal.[/i:1ziejj6x].  Hell, I was a meat eater for 31 1/2 years and I loved animals...[b:1ziejj6x]It has to hit you, you have to make that connection.[/b:1ziejj6x]','',0,'4A==','1ziejj6x',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8355,1134,27,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1147214559,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ve switched everything from dog food, to deodorant, cleaning products, etc.  They are easily spoted (for the most part) their bloody name is on everything they make, just turn the bottle around.  I am driving everybody, bf, coworkers, family, nuts with this!','',0,'4A==','2cx6vz1f',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8358,1128,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147218286,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I agree with all of you to a degree. Meat is disconnected from the slaughter so many people don\'t associate. Animal testing (medical, cosmetic) not being necessary involves two things one people need to learn a fair amount about the faulty science behind and two people have to feel they can follow through. As for shocking some people with undercover videos some refuse to watch or stay in denial to protect a weak emotional side that cannot take the cruelty of their reality so they remain in their comfortable delusion. \n\nI was recently in a discussion with someone in college studying nuclear medicine. I showed her statistics and videos on medical testing and vegetarianism. Her reply was 1) (testing reply) Why would they do this its not necessary 2) (meat reply) I don\'t care I like it and I\'m going to eat it. I finally laughed in her face after about three hours and told her all she wants to do to help people is futile as she is a hypocrit in the long run cause when she kills animals she kills people which equates her with a murderer in my eyes. I know thats a hard line but the convo started on why I don\'t date meat eaters so I let her have the truth which she did not like to much. \n\nIn case you think that sentence can\'t be quantified feel free to read my article  <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) --> \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Health/WorldHunger.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Pr ... Hunger.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'4A==','1id6whc0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8366,1134,27,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1147228490,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I spend hours at the grocery store putting stickers on Proctor and Gamble products.  &quot;This product contains dead animals&quot;, &quot;WARNING: Animals suffered to make this product&quot;, things like that.  \n\nI also do other products, but I make sure to get all the p&amp;g\'s.','',0,'4A==','3k7olqap',1,0,'',19,0,0),(8379,1134,27,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1147244114,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I will be joining the P&amp;G demos in Manchester next Wednesday and Thursday  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nWho are the 2 people who use P&amp;G crap? Don\'t know why anyone would, their products are full of chemical nasties!','',0,'4A==','wp6uaeze',1,0,'',309,0,0),(8389,1134,27,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1147281186,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yes they are!  Very nasty ingredients!!!\n\nYou know what was really scary?  At a P&amp;G meeting I went to all the exec\'s wore the same blue suit.  I wondered if they all blinked in unison too...','',0,'4A==','4epgb1zy',1,0,'',19,0,0),(8391,1134,27,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1147282520,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','There cleaning products stink too. My mum cleans her house with all their stuff and I can\'t breathe. My Gran has problems breathing and needs an inhaler and I\'m sure all those chemicals make it worse. I also hate it when clothing/bedding/towels have been washed and stink of strong smelling fabric softner. I would much rather smell the fresh smell of the outdoors on washing thats been pegged outside to dry.','',0,'4A==','1yh3tllv',1,0,'',309,0,0),(8394,1134,27,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1147307637,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Discolisious: I love that idea! I can just imagine the peoples faces when they pick up the items on the shelf!  ... but how the hell do you not get thrown out of the stores?  <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'4A==','246pbq0o',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8403,1134,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147318532,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have done stickering also Disc on P&amp;G products and poultry and meat. What\'s the deal with the endorsment they make on their ads for Febreze an animal society endorsing them for being safe to use around pets. (Yeah as long as its not one of the ones they test on!)\n\nVeganAngel_RI\n\nPS Eeriel many store brands also test on animals.','',0,'4A==','10k1nqnr',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8405,1134,27,702,0,'68.40.239.177',1147318832,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Stickers','Where can I get some stickers?\nDo I have to make my own?','',0,'4A==','3qwfz4k6',1,0,'',702,0,0),(8408,1134,27,655,0,'71.37.7.3',1147329061,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Febreze isn\'t at all safe around birds! I wouldn\'t trust it around dogs and cats either, my mom uses it and I get migraines every time she sprays it near me.\n\nRR','',0,'4A==','fklo91ei',1,0,'',655,0,0),(8412,1143,26,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1147348896,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Is euthanasia acceptable when dealing with liberated animals','Kibitzers, post your comments in this thread.\n\nThe formal debate is here: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.webgroups.us/animalliberationfront/viewtopic.php?p=8411#8411\">http://www.webgroups.us/animalliberatio ... =8411#8411</a><!-- m -->\n\nRemember that the participants, &quot;Alex&quot; and &quot;Cheeseburger in Paradise&quot; may read your comments, but they can not respond or otherwise engage in a debate here. They may, however, use your comments or suggestions in their debate (although they can\'t refer to them directly).','',0,'4A==','221qrj28',1,0,'',2,0,0),(8415,1143,26,309,0,'195.93.21.97',1147377118,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I had to think for a few moments before making my decision. I haven\'t read any of the debate yet but here are my thoughts. If I were an animal I would rather die than face a future on a factory farm, fur farm or in a vivisection lab. However when these animals are liberated usually more are bred to replace them so I feel liberation should only be done if homes are waiting for liberated animals. Euthanasia is not acceptable.','',0,'4A==','2n87lpf7',1,0,'',309,0,0),(8416,1143,26,4,0,'207.200.116.195',1147378357,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','opinion','In my opinion the question of euthanasia is similar to the question of abortion in the following manner: Although ending a sentient life is rarely a good idea, I can imagine scenarios where it is the better of two gut-wrenching choices. With euthanasia, as with abortion, I have no idea how common is the scenario that would make me accept killing as the best choice (reliable data is difficult to find, perhaps because debaters find the emotional arguments more effective).\n   Of course abortion is different from euthanasia in that abortion involves the conflicting rights of two entities, there is less sentience but more potential sentience, etc.\n\nI think it would be better to euthanize a liberated animal only if two things were true beyond a reasonable doubt: 1.) the animal would wish to die if it knew its pain would not diminish (measuring &quot;pain&quot; vs. &quot;the desire to live with that pain&quot; is difficult) and 2.) the pain would only worsen (according to a veterinarian).\n\nIn keeping with the doctrine of animal rights, my dilemma would be the same if I substituted a human that couldn\'t directly communicate (for example, Terri Schiavo -- although being in pain is a separate issue from being \'brain-dead\').\n\nSince knowledge of the physical condition and spirit of an animal would not likely be available prior to a liberation, I can\'t imagine a scenario where it would be reasonable to PLAN the rescue of an animal and then plan to euthanize him. So my comments apply only in situations where a decision is reached after liberation, and after observations of body language and tests are conducted by a veterinarian.','',0,'4A==','13u9d1c6',1,0,'',4,0,0),(8417,1134,27,686,0,'172.202.51.53',1147384020,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> cant belive the responce from you guys about PnG,good on you if only more people i knew cared like you lot.Im glad someone else has realized how the bastards products choke you to death when using them. <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: --> cant belive that someone on here has admitted to using PnG,sort it out aint that hard isit to read a label and change your product,do it ya, lungs n face will be better off. <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> so will those poor innocent animals','',0,'4A==','3sv7w8vy',1,0,'',686,0,0),(8424,1143,26,487,0,'202.180.83.13',1147390642,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','What about if an animal is in a lab, you show up in a balaclava and only have homes for 400 (Alot of homes!), there are 500 animals, the experiment is severe suffering do you leave the last 100 to thier painful death at the hands of the vivisection industries best sadists? Do you take them and run the risk of having the FBI bust you with 100 un-rehomable rabbits leaping around in  your lounge room? Try to give the tattooed eared bunnies away on a street corner and end up going to jail for 7 years because you give one away to a local cops daughter? or take them then get your ALF cells vet to kill them via an overdose on painkillers, even tho there is a really good chance these rabbits could lead healthy lives if only you had enough safe homes?\n\nOf course the IDEAL situation is that I would euthanize the vivisicktors. But we are talking practicalities here.','',0,'4A==','8hmjy9k2',1,0,'',487,0,0),(8431,1143,26,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147402974,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am close to you inciter in opinion that is. Also some liberated animals are so injured it may be impossible to rehab them or place them. Also I hate saying this but money needs to be considered if you run out with 50 liberated animals and one is possibly saveable but will cost $5000 to repair it may be better to humanely euthanize that one and put $5000 into another liberation that could save another 50 animals. Its a sad way to think about it but it is true.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'4A==','3fzuc8ux',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8432,1134,27,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1147403459,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','This must be what Febreze is referring to\n\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.aspca.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&amp;id=8352&amp;news_iv_ctrl=1101\">http://www.aspca.org/site/News2?page=Ne ... _ctrl=1101</a><!-- m -->\n\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'4A==','3ikniqo0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(8436,1143,26,709,0,'24.215.164.149',1147408983,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thank you Inciter for raising this issue. This has open the doors to many more important questions for me. Rescuing animals is not an easy and a simple task. One must think about, and know what is going on, before getting in to it. Each situation is different. If the animals in question are being tortured and in acute pain and we are certain of this, then it is one thing, but if we are talking about rescuing animals from enslavement and boredom of factory, zoo, circus and other animal prisons, it is maybe something else. In the first case the liberation is a must, urgent, as soon as possible, if possible , IMO. We think about difficulties of finding homes or euthanasia for these unfortunate, beautiful creatures later. However in either case, we must not forget, when these animals are liberated usually more are bred to replace them, as Maisiepaisie has pointed out above. Perhaps, the most important thing is to get these atrocities exposed and to fight and concentrate on granting  animals their Rights, at the same time, so that the situations from which we are trying to liberate them, will be illegal someday soon. I hope tomorrow. Joan Dunayer and Gary Francione would argue that pushing for euthanasia over slaughter is the &quot;welferist&quot; approach to the problem, is compromise and in a long run is the obstacle to genuine Animal Rights, Liberation and Abolitionism. I am not sure if I agree. What do you think?','',0,'4A==','j5685akz',1,0,'',709,0,0),(8442,1143,26,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1147424283,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Inciter&quot;:uncvjuy3]do you leave the last 100 to thier painful death[/quote:uncvjuy3]\nI think I might do that. If I euthanized the animals, they would get new ones. Or I might do something else, I just don\'t know. Most likely, I would set them free to uncertain future, at least giving them a fighting chance.','',0,'gA==','uncvjuy3',1,0,'',111,0,0),(8537,1143,26,643,0,'72.240.14.57',1147619696,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i am shocked at the time that I most this message there is more people who believe in euthanasia then not.  I really thought that I would be one of the very few who belived it would be ok.  People never stop amazing me.','',0,'gA==','3hn1l9x1',1,0,'',643,0,0),(8573,1143,26,709,0,'24.215.164.149',1147707117,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Cheeseburger_in_Paradise&quot;:3mx96kzr]\nIn many cases, these animals are [b:3mx96kzr] &quot;rescued&quot; or &quot;liberated&quot; [/b:3mx96kzr] from farming facilities that provide onsite veterinary care, healthy diets and adequate housing. [/quote:3mx96kzr]\n[color=red:3mx96kzr][size=134:3mx96kzr]1.[/size:3mx96kzr][/color:3mx96kzr] First I would like to move quotation marks in the above sentence to where they should be, in my opinion, so the sentence looks like this:\n\nIn many cases, these animals are rescued or liberated from [b:3mx96kzr] &quot;farming facilities&quot; [/b:3mx96kzr] that provide [b:3mx96kzr] &quot;onsite veterinary care, healthy diets and adequate housing&quot; [/b:3mx96kzr].\n\n[color=red:3mx96kzr][size=134:3mx96kzr]2.[/color:3mx96kzr][/size:3mx96kzr] Next let\'s define and give true meaning to the words in the quotation marks of the revised sentence.\n\n[b:3mx96kzr] Farming Facilities =[/b:3mx96kzr] [i:3mx96kzr] Animal Factory Prisons. [/i:3mx96kzr]\n\n[b:3mx96kzr] Onsite Veterinary Care, Healthy Diets and Adequate Housing = [/b:3mx96kzr] Let\'s see what a conservative prominent and reputable reporter, the former speech writer to the President has seen on a pig factory farm. \n\nMathew Scully is on a tour inside a standard Smithfield pig factory farm owned by Carroll\'s Foods in a place called Warsaw two hours southeast of Raleigh. He is being led by a woman by the name Gay, an agricultural scientist. \n\n[i:3mx96kzr]Gay embodies in her ample frame all of humanity\'s contradictions about animals, capable of touching solicitude one moment and staggering disregard the next. &quot;This\'ll be your first time farrowing, won\'t it, baby?&quot; she says to a sow I pose to inspect, identified on a tag above the cage as NPD 88-308.&quot;. &quot;Baby&quot; is lying there covered in feces and dried blood, yanking maniacally on chains that have torn her mouth raw as foraging animals will do when caged and denied straw or other roughage to chew. She\'s hurting herself with the chains, I remark. &quot;Oh, that\'s normal,&quot;\n-------\nThe answer can be seen in the swollen legs of the sow standing or trying to stand. To lie on their side, a powerful inclination during month of confinement in twenty-two inch of space, they try to put their legs through the bars into a neighboring crate. Fragile from the pigs\' abnormally large weight, and from rarely standing or walking, and then only on concrete, their legs get crushed and broken. About half of those pigs whose legs can be seen appear to have sprained or fractured limbs, never examined by a vet, never splinted never even noticed any more. \n-------\nWe keep walking. Sores, tumors, ulcers pus pockets, lesions, cysts, bruises, torn ears, swollen legs everywhere. Roaring, groaning, tail biting, fighting, and other &quot;vices&quot;, as they\'re called in the industry. Frenzied chewing on bars and chains, stereotypical &quot;vacuum&quot; chewing on nothing at all, stereotypical rooting and nest building with imaginary straw. And &quot;social defeat.&quot; lots of it, in every third or forth stall some completely broken being you know is alive only because she blinks and stares up at you like poor NPD 50-421, creatures beyond the power of pity to help or indifference to make more miserable, dead to the world except as heaps of flesh into which the AI rod may be stuck once more and more flesh reproduced. When they have conquered the &quot;stress gene\'&quot;, maybe the Ph. D.\'s and guys in white coats can find us a cure for the despair gene, too.\n\nFrom Dominion by Matthew Scully, 2002, page 266-268 [/i:3mx96kzr]\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.matthewscully.com/reviews.htm\">http://www.matthewscully.com/reviews.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\n[color=red:3mx96kzr][size=134:3mx96kzr]3.[/color:3mx96kzr][/size:3mx96kzr] Now perhaps we can talk about rescuing or liberating animals from the animal factory prisons and the euthanasia.\n\nSo... I have to ask myself a question: If I had a choice to live few more months under the above described conditions, only to be slaughtered at the end, with the possibility of stun gun missing my forehead, in which case I would be hung upside down and murdered fully conscious, or to be rescued from this hell and get a lethal injection soon afterwards; what would I prefer?','',0,'5g==','3mx96kzr',1,0,'',709,0,0),(8622,1143,26,702,0,'68.40.239.177',1147818203,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Paraphrase','Note: First..Thank you Cheese for being such a great friend; you are helping us learn.  Second...I asked Ann to replace what I wrote in the debate with what Ante wrote, because to all readers, we will learn more from what Ante wrote than what I wrote.  I came to this site hoping to learn to improve myself including interview on TV/Radio, etc., and I just learned that I don\'t know how to debate!!!  Ante is teaching us how to debate and discuss confidently with others, including politicians, which is a better direction than I was taking the debate.  Cheese is being so awesome and generous.\n\nI would like to step down and suggest Ante and Cheese continue without me.\n\nThird...Ann then asked me to paraphrase what Ante wrote.  I am not sure how to paraphrase, so I just did my best shortening Ante\'s response.  My suggestion is to read what Ante wrote as if you yourself are a leader behind a podium speaking his words OR you are a voting constituent who is politely interviewing an opposing politician for an editorial you are submitting to the news. \n\n[u:1e2q8v3g]Ante\'s response to Mr. CheeseBurger[/u:1e2q8v3g]:\n \nCheeseburger_in_Paradise wrote: \n\nIn many cases, these animals are &quot;rescued&quot; or &quot;liberated&quot; from farming facilities that provide onsite veterinary care, healthy diets and adequate housing.  \n\n1. First I would like to move quotation marks in Mr. Burger\'s statement to where they should be, in my opinion: \n\nIn many cases, these animals are rescued or liberated from &quot;[i:1e2q8v3g]farming facilities[/i:1e2q8v3g]&quot; that provide &quot;[i:1e2q8v3g]onsite veterinary care, healthy diets and adequate housing[/i:1e2q8v3g]&quot; . \n\n2. Next let\'s define and give true meaning to the words in the quotation marks of the revised sentence. \n\n&quot;[i:1e2q8v3g]Farming Facility[/i:1e2q8v3g]&quot; is a euphamism for Animal Factory Prison. \n\n&quot;[i:1e2q8v3g]Onsite Veterinary Care, Healthy Diets and Adequate Housing[/i:1e2q8v3g]&quot; ... Let\'s see what a conservative prominent and reputable reporter, the former speech writer to the President has seen on a pig factory farm. \n\nAfter a tour through a standard Smithfield pig factory farm owned by Carroll\'s Foods in a place called Warsaw two hours southeast of Raleigh, Matthew Scully wrote: \n\n&quot;This\'ll be your first time farrowing, won\'t it, baby?&quot; Gay, the agricultural scientist says to a sow I pose to inspect, identified on a tag above the cage as NPD 88-308.&quot;. &quot;Baby&quot; is lying there covered in feces and dried blood, yanking maniacally on chains that have torn her mouth raw as foraging animals will do when caged and denied straw or other roughage to chew. She\'s hurting herself with the chains, I remark. &quot;Oh, that\'s normal,&quot; \n------- \nWe keep walking. Sores, tumors, ulcers pus pockets, lesions, cysts, bruises, torn ears, swollen legs everywhere.  Frenzied chewing on bars and chains, stereotypical &quot;vacuum&quot; chewing on nothing at all, stereotypical rooting and nest building with imaginary straw. And &quot;social defeat.&quot; lots of it, in every third or forth stall some completely broken ... dead to the world except as heaps of flesh into which the AI rod may be stuck once more and more flesh reproduced. \n\nFrom Dominion by Matthew Scully, 2002, page 266-268 \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.matthewscully.com/reviews.htm\">http://www.matthewscully.com/reviews.htm</a><!-- m --> \n\n3. Now perhaps we can talk about rescuing or liberating animals from the animal factory prisons and the euthanasia. \n\nSo... I have to ask myself a question: If I had a choice to live few more months under the above described conditions, or to be rescued from this hell and get a lethal injection soon afterwards; what would I prefer?','',0,'IQ==','1e2q8v3g',1,0,'',702,0,0),(8628,1143,26,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1147821656,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Alex, if it counts for anything, I think you are doing a fine job.  We ALL could learn a thing or 2 from each other.  You and Cheese set up fine rules for this debate: not everyone could have done such a good job, I say you keep at it.  <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'IQ==','3qbd9aiq',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8648,1143,26,709,0,'24.215.164.112',1147875590,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yes I agree. Marie is right. Alex, you are doing an excellent job. We are all hopefully learning from each other. As you know each person is a unique individual in their own way, like two dogs who live with you and the thirty-eight rescued mice who live with me. We are all entitled to our undeniable rights and these animals should have their rights too. We are not clocks or the computer chips nor are the animals. Please, let\'s try to stick by the rules of the debate as set, continue and enjoy it.\n\nThe only problem, I see, you have now is, that the person you are debating with, seems to be stranded somewhere, or is perhaps on his way to his paradise chocking on his cheeseburger. Only kidding.\n\nTo continue my morning rant... Thank you for the compliments, but I think you have more faith in me then I do myself. I think, neither am I good debater nor a wise person. Also, I don\'t want to, and don\'t have time to seriously debate  Cheeseburger in Paradise, or anyone. Throwing in a little post here and there, now and then, I do enjoy.\n\n[i:2s2xjozx] I\'m just a soul who\'s intentions are good, \nOh lord, please don\'t let me be misunderstood. ~ The Animals [/i:2s2xjozx]\n\n[color=cyan:2s2xjozx][size=134:2s2xjozx] PS  Alex, please have confidence and faith in yourself and continue the struggle. [/color:2s2xjozx][/size:2s2xjozx]','',0,'Jg==','2s2xjozx',1,1147934092,'',709,1,0),(8715,1143,26,709,0,'24.215.164.112',1147932755,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I forgot to mention one small detail, which after thinking about it, seems in my opinion very important.\n\nWhen Alex paraphrased or shortened my response, one of the paragraphs describing the animal factory prisons by Mathew Scully had been lost.  \n\nAlex wrote: \n\n[i:qwmwny5i] &quot;This\'ll be your first time farrowing, won\'t it, baby?&quot; Gay, the agricultural scientist says to a sow I pose to inspect, identified on a tag above the cage as NPD 88-308.&quot;. &quot;Baby&quot; is lying there covered in feces and dried blood, yanking maniacally on chains that have torn her mouth raw as foraging animals will do when caged and denied straw or other roughage to chew. She\'s hurting herself with the chains, I remark. &quot;Oh, that\'s normal.&quot; \n ------- \n We keep walking. Sores, tumors, ulcers pus pockets, lesions, cysts, bruises, torn ears, swollen legs everywhere. Frenzied chewing on bars and chains, stereotypical &quot;vacuum&quot; chewing on nothing at all, stereotypical rooting and nest building with imaginary straw. And &quot;social defeat.&quot; lots of it, in every third or forth stall some completely broken ... dead to the world except as heaps of flesh into which the AI rod may be stuck once more and more flesh reproduced. \n\n From Dominion by Matthew Scully, 2002, page 266-268[/i:qwmwny5i] \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.matthewscully.com/reviews.htm\">http://www.matthewscully.com/reviews.htm</a><!-- m --> \n\nHere is the missing paragraph:\n\n[i:qwmwny5i] The answer can be seen in the swollen legs of the sow standing or trying to stand. To lie on their side, a powerful inclination during month of confinement in twenty-two inch of space, they try to put their legs through the bars into a neighboring crate. Fragile from the pigs\' abnormally large weight, and from rarely standing or walking, and then only on concrete, their legs get crushed and broken. About half of those pigs whose legs can be seen appear to have sprained or fractured limbs, [b:qwmwny5i] never examined by a vet [/b:qwmwny5i], never splinted never even noticed any more. [/i:qwmwny5i]\n\nThe reason I think this is important is because, if we look at the Cheeseburger in Paradise\'s statement from the &quot;Euthanasia&quot; thread of [i:qwmwny5i] The Formal Debates Forum [/i:qwmwny5i], we can discern an obvious and serious credibility issue. Here, let\'s look at this statement again and compare words in black from Mathew Scully\'s eye witness account and Cheeseburger in Paradise\'s statement:\n\n[color=darkred:qwmwny5i] Cheeseburger in Paradise: [/color:qwmwny5i]In many cases, these animals are rescued or liberated from farming facilities that [b:qwmwny5i] provide onsite veterinary care [/b:qwmwny5i], healthy diets and adequate housing. \n\n[color=darkred:qwmwny5i]Matthew Scully:[/color:qwmwny5i] About half of those pigs whose legs can be seen appear to have sprained or fractured limbs, [b:qwmwny5i] never examined by a vet [/b:qwmwny5i], never splinted never even noticed any more. \n \nBoth statements above can\'t be true. Somebody is not telling us the truth.\n\nIn my opinion, looking at the above and also considering numerous videotape documentations by the brave ARA, some of them in jail now for exposing the atrocities and horror of animal factory prisons, Cheeseburger in Paradise has lost credibility, and as far as I am concerned, has respectfully already lost the debate.','',0,'Yg==','qwmwny5i',1,0,'',709,0,0),(8761,1143,26,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1148009443,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I like your point Ante, but let\'s not declare this one yet... I think Alex is gearing up for another round... a little bird told me <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'Yg==','6tum733l',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8763,880,15,716,0,'71.131.3.202',1148009810,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','The bible says that everything is ment to serve man.  That is where a lot of problems are born.','',0,'Yg==','182jzhfr',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8764,1186,16,716,0,'71.131.3.202',1148010060,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','IAMS CRUELTY','I know that some of you may already know about this but here it is anyway.  BOYCOTT IAMS DOG FOOD COMPANY!\n\n[url:1a2h46uu]http&#58;//www&#46;iamscruelty&#46;com[/url:1a2h46uu]','',0,'EA==','1a2h46uu',1,0,'',716,0,0),(8771,1186,16,554,0,'66.130.197.216',1148011385,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeah, when I found out, I gave the rest of my Eukanuba bag to someone and immediately began my search for non-tested food: i settled on Wellness, by old mother hubbard and it\'s really great.','',0,'EA==','1gstpf55',1,0,'',554,0,0),(8773,880,15,643,0,'66.192.200.2',1148011603,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','people have used the bible to justify every position made under the sun.  although I am a Christian,  i dont believe that you can take the bible word for word.','',0,'EA==','iitnd43d',1,0,'',643,0,0),(8789,1143,26,709,0,'24.215.164.112',1148026330,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Marie, I am sure and certainly hope that your little non-stop plucking, hungry bird is right. I was only trying, from the distance, to voice my personal, humble opinion regarding the progress of the formal debate in question.','',0,'EA==','2ywf97rj',1,1148109679,'',709,1,0),(8799,1143,26,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1148040714,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','debate','Several points I wish to make\n\nAnte,\n   Principles, not people. I have NO tolerance for people who make debate personal. It\'s my pet peeve. Please accept that as the condition for posting on this board.\n\nAlex,\n   The reason rules are set up for a debate is that the rules separate the debate from the normal conversations. Even the US Presidential candidates were not allowed to stretch the rules. The wonderful thing is that YOU get to set the rules. Two primary rules you broke were: 1. Word limit (wildly excessive), and 2.) not conversing with the peanut gallery about the debate topic until AFTER the debate was over.\n\nMy point is: Don\'t get up on your high horse about the debate procedure. If anything, you should be only apologetic.','',0,'EA==','3ms7xhbi',1,0,'',2,0,0),(8825,1143,26,709,0,'24.215.164.112',1148111302,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Ann, I have edited the post with the &quot;personal remark&quot; to which I think you are refering; see bellow. I can appreciate and I am pleased you are adhering to the high standards across the board. Please Let me know if I can help in any other way. \n\n[quote:1vuprjcg] Marie, I am sure and certainly hope that your little non-stop plucking, hungry bird is right. I was only trying, from the distance, to voice my personal humble opinion regarding the progress of the formal debate in question. [/quote:1vuprjcg]','',0,'gA==','1vuprjcg',1,0,'',709,0,0),(8921,880,15,755,0,'80.175.180.26',1148204455,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Jesus was born a Jew, as a young man he was a carpenter, so whatever Jews ate at that time it\'s resonable to assume he ate whatever was on the table.\n\nIn those days you could not afford to be too picky about food, no supermarkets or junk food.','',0,'gA==','1bypeogn',1,0,'',755,0,0),(8928,880,15,527,0,'86.133.173.176',1148212744,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Diana&quot;:2wgfuc1p]violet: No-one will ever able to prove whether he was or he wasn\'t. So it\'s just always going to someone\'s word against another\'s.\n\nBut if he was from the Essenian community, then he most definitely was. The Essenes ate nothing from an animal.\n\nDo I believe he was an Essene? Definitely.\n\nBut I may be wrong...[/quote:2wgfuc1p]\n\nThe Essenian community was a &quot;sect&quot; much like the masons and had 4000 members. Jesus was not a member and you will not find any documentaltion to support your claims. They wrote the dead sea scrolls.','',0,'gA==','2wgfuc1p',1,0,'',527,0,0),(8930,1143,26,527,0,'86.133.173.176',1148215620,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Alex I find your stance shocking.\n\nAnimal liberation should ALWAYS be thought out before the act itself.\n\nEuthanasing animals is not a form of economic sabotage, the act of liberating the animals is. Whould you liberate people from a concentration camp and then kill them with a lethal injection? If not you have to ask yourself why. I feel the same about killing heathy animals in pounds rather than finding loving homes. You would never think of killing a homeless person just because you can not find them a home so why kill an animal in the same situation? If it is not ok to kill a homless human then why is it ok to kill a homeless animal? To place more value on the life of your own species above another species is called speciesism!\n\nYou will always find homes for liberated animals, always!\n\nTo liberate animals into the wild is something that needs careful thinking. An idea liberation would be that these animals surrounding habitat could sustain them if so then the rest is upto them. You are giving them a chance to live wild and free but taking them away from one cage to a place of execution is giving them no chance at all.\n\nIt is the financial slant to the argument that disturbs me more than anything yet you would not place the same financial restraints on humans, or would you?\n\nIt is wrong to liberate a healthy animal only to kill it because it is cheaper.','',0,'gA==','3awpbooe',1,0,'',527,0,0),(8942,756,15,702,0,'68.40.239.177',1148228462,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Alex','Hi.  I\'m Alex.\n\nThis is a story about my beloved cat Alex...\n\nI found Alex as a flea-infested kitten chasing autumn leaves in the middle of the road.  Many cars were slowing down to get around him.  I got out and scooped him up.\n\nAlex loved to be outside and inside.  At the age of about 10, he was as healthy as ever, and I caved in once again to his wanting to go outside.  He came back home with deep cuts in need of stitches on his head.  \n\nHe contracted Feline Aids as a result.  He lived a while longer, but I wish I would have been creative like Discolicious and made a special indoor cat room for him maybe even with a window seat.  I regret letting him outside ever, not only for him, but for the sake of others.  \n\nI think I was incredibly reckless, inconsiderate, and rude for allowing my pet to roam.  Imagine the birds in the area, the baby rabbits too.\n\nMy childhood cat Sylvester was allowed to roam due to the ignorance of my rednecked parents (alcoholic father).  Sylvester enjoyed finding baby bunnies and removing each little bunny foot with her teeth while keeping the baby bunny alive.  So I would have to &quot;euthanize&quot; baby bunnies here and there as a young child.  I guess it would have been better for me to raise money and find them homes, but even as a young child I was smart enough to understand the scheme of things....in this war against animal abuse, there are many casualties of war, but the pie-in-the-sky solution of the archaic model of &quot;sheltering&quot; and finding as many homes as possible only resorts in a small percentage getting spoiled while the majority remain torture victims.','',0,'gA==','3n76w6mq',1,0,'',702,0,0),(8973,844,5,638,0,'80.216.4.70',1148257448,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Thank you for this thread!','I actually log´d in to the forum tonight looking for a thread like this as i was just talking to a brainless c**t on a datingsite here in Sweden (not that i need to be on a datesite, beeing as utterly gorgeous as i am and so forth.It just so happened that my vikinghelmet was at the shop so i could not go out to the local boozer,you dooooo belive me dont you?please?..<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\nAnyway, we started talking about the use of furs and hey presto ,as usual the bullshit about &quot;i do not condone the breeding of mink for the reason of making furs and i dont  think its right, i just buy old furs from shops and use them as i think we should use the furs that already is in the market&quot; you all have heard this braindead mumbojumbo before. I tried my very best to make the idiot come to grips with the fact that you are most CERTAINLY keeping this horrible buisness running by wearing fur and beeing an ad for it by wearing it in public..but i´d have a better chance in finding Hoffa in my wardrobe(and i live in Sweden) than making her understand that.I have had this talk before with an assorted amount on nutters and everytime the same bullshit about &quot;The animals are already dead, i just wear old fur so i dont help the fur trade&quot;\nWhen you are faced with this, what do you say?I realy dont know what to say to them anymore because their IQ-level seem to drop by 95% as soon as i try to explain the horror and their participation in keeping the fur trade afloat...\nAlso, am i the only one who have experienced this?: When you put an fur wearer against the wall about their disgusting choice of thing to wear, they IMMIDIATLY begin rambling about starvation in africa and stuff like that and totally close their ears concearning the fur trade...it boggles my mind evertime it happens because i can not for the life of me understand how they are thinking?Just because there is children starving in africa, it is ok to wear fur..HOW??? <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> \nSorry,just had to let of some steam, but to answer the question that started this thread concearning what i think about the people that wear fur..\nI am truly scared of myself and my thoughts when i see some c**t walking around with an furcoat or someone with an furlining on their jackets, i very seldom miss a chance to explain to these assholes exactly what i think..Words can not describe the hate i have for these people.. <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->\n \nLove from Sweden to all of you animallovers here as always though..;)','',0,'gA==','1v6xr9ry',1,0,'',638,0,0),(8974,844,5,4,0,'70.38.73.13',1148260293,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','fur wearers','I\'m a pretty good actor. I give a very good performance when I see someone wearing fur.\n\nI know they won\'t listen if I insult them. Okay, sometimes I do that because I don\'t have time. Me bad.\n\nBut if I have time my conversation goes something like this, &quot;Wow, that fur coat is eyecatching.&quot;\n\n&quot;Yes, I\'m told, it is stunning. Thanks for noticing. They are listening to me now.&quot;\n\n&quot;I bet it is a wonderful conversation starter.&quot;\n\n&quot;Yes, yes, it is. People ask where I got it.&quot; Now they are my friend\n\n&quot;That\'s what I thought. It\'s a wonderful conversation starter and it gives you an opportunity to educate them.&quot;\n\nYes, they smile. I smile back.\n\n&quot;You can tell them about how, to make a fur that looks THAT good, with no damage, the animal needs to be cooked slowly from the inside. I bet most of them don\'t know that.&quot;\n\nSurprisingly, at this point, very few get angry. I have complimented them. I am smiling. They have already admitted they are smart. Many say, &quot;I didn\'t know that?&quot; or listen politely while I explain. I make sure that I watch their body language and say goodbye when they look ansy. I remind them to take advantage of their wonderful opportunity to educate folks.','',0,'gA==','2y3djhjz',1,0,'',4,0,0),(9015,844,5,716,0,'71.131.27.31',1148350995,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','People think that because that we dont have fur that is natural that we wear real fur.  I dont get mad at them.  I just tell them what is really going on. If they dont believe me I just wack them over the head with a 2x4.','',0,'gA==','361wglhr',1,0,'',716,0,0),(9020,844,5,702,0,'68.40.239.177',1148358155,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','fur hags','Recently I was in line at the post office when the women next to me was a fur-hag.  I was mailing a package to my Federal Representative (Meat Your Meat for the Downed Animals Protection Act), and I struck up a conversation with her....\n\nMe:\n&quot;Hello, I hope you don\'t mind me asking....do you know how the coat you are wearing was made?&quot;\n\nHer:\n&quot;Yes, and I don\'t care.&quot;\n\nMe to the little girl on the other side of me:\n&quot;You see, there are those of us who care, and those of us who do not care.&quot; \n\nThen I proceeded to talk about London and passports with the young girl ignoring the fur-hag entirely.\n\nFur hags are so unattractive.\n\nPS and by the way....DUMPDAIRY!!!!!!!!!!! even if you eat meat.......DUMP DAIRY, FUR, VEAL, FOI GRAS, BOYCOTT COMPANIES WHO TEST ON ANIMALS.  thanks.','',0,'gA==','tgdvv6yj',1,0,'',702,0,0),(9034,844,5,626,0,'82.40.189.57',1148381567,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Ignorance is bliss  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->','',0,'gA==','2cy82is2',1,0,'',626,0,0),(9055,1203,17,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1148411700,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','pitbulls','Hi Everybody.\n\nThis pitbull thing is really starting to get on my nerves.  Does anyone know what we can do to help stop these laws?  If they terminate pitbulls, they are going to start going after other breeds and mixes, and this is just ridiculous.  Are there petitions to sign?  people to write to?  if anyone knows, please post.  Thanks.','',0,'gA==','gt8l06qx',1,0,'',444,0,0),(9061,844,5,638,0,'80.216.4.70',1148427674,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;BorderCollie89&quot;:2k5fdb4s]People think that because that we dont have fur that is natural that we wear real fur.  I dont get mad at them.  I just tell them what is really going on. If they dont believe me I just wack them over the head with a 2x4.[/quote:2k5fdb4s]\nThank you, you made my day!!!*LOL*','',0,'gA==','2k5fdb4s',1,0,'',638,0,0),(9062,756,15,554,0,'66.130.197.76',1148429928,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Guys, try to get some perspective here....\n\nIt all depends on the context.  I have 3 dogs.  I also have the luxury of having a 10,000 sq ft yard in which they can roam, run, fart around, do whatever.  This yard is fenced in, and the only reason for that is that the road is too close.  I wish I could walk the country side with my babies leashless, but you know we can\'t have it all.\n\nMidnight lets his dogs roam free!  They have a home called the kennel, they are well fed, they help him and he helps them, I would call that a relationship.  And don\'t come back with &quot;animals don\'t belong to us....&quot;  I know, but can\'t you all see how much he seems to love and care for them?  [u:3rin3k0l][b:3rin3k0l]I would want half as much[/b:3rin3k0l][/u:3rin3k0l] for all the pets I have seen mistreated, left to starve in their cages, beaten, well... you know the drill.  \n\nAnd yes my dogs climb the furniture, the beds, hell whatever they want, but If I don\'t mind vaccuming 3 times a week I will sure as hell not condem someone who has other things to do...\n\nAgain, a little perspective here!','',0,'QQ==','3rin3k0l',1,0,'',554,0,0),(9064,756,15,702,0,'68.40.239.177',1148432286,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','pack animals','Dogs are pack animals, and kennels aren\'t great to me.  Sadly, I use my laundry room as a large kennel, and sometimes my rescued Pit Bull has to stay in there for 8 hours, because she will hurt my other rescued dogs.  She has plenty of space to not poop where she is resting, so at least her basic needs are met and then some.  \n\nI agree MidnightRiders dogs are lucky, so long as their kennel is large enough to stand up, move around, stretch, lie down comfortably, because he obviously gives them friendship and love too.  He is their pack leader, and even when they are in the kennel, they know they get to see him everyday.\n\nMidnightRider, if and when you have to euthanize you elderly cows or horses, remember to bury or incinerate their bodies right away so the birds of prey do not eat the flesh and get &quot;put to sleep&quot; too!  Just a tip, you probably already know!','',0,'QQ==','369h7r4h',1,0,'',702,0,0),(9068,756,15,488,0,'152.163.100.5',1148434753,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','no worries about buryin animals here- there is a state law that says all animals must be immediatly buried with a mimimum of three feet of dirt on top, all farms and ranches around here are inspected by the dept of agriculture on a monthly basis - we have lots of guidlines and rule to follow concernng manure- erosion - and disposing of animals. \n the dog kennels are 12 by12 and remember that most of the time the doors are open so they can come and go as they please. One thing to remember though- my dogs are working dogs as well as pets, there number one job is helpng me handle livestock and there second job is protecting the farm. since ive quit raisig slaughtr cattle they havent worked as much and there actually getting too fat. we used to catch cattle 4 or5 times a week , now they spend a lot more time lounging under a shade tree in the yard.','',0,'QQ==','16gz608v',1,0,'',488,0,0),(9078,102,18,626,0,'82.40.189.57',1148467675,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','How comes US ones dont have chocolate, whats in the middle of them?\n\nAfter Eight originals are vegan and some of the best sweets around.\n\nI often use this site for finding out about vegan products- <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.isitvegan.info/\">http://www.isitvegan.info/</a><!-- m -->','',0,'QQ==','sr9ndmbw',1,0,'',626,0,0),(9094,756,15,575,0,'81.151.20.147',1148484012,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Keeping cats indoors when they obviously want to go out? The very idea  is absurd, imo, especially when cats are natural hunters, thus belong outside where their wild counter-parts spend most of the time (inside for wild would be to burrow underground or something like that).\n\nIf you are scared of main roads. Allow them to go out in the back garden, but no further. Cat proof fencing is easily obtainable and they\'ll still have access to outside. Scared that they\'ll kill birds? Put bells on their collars. That way the bells should scare any birds nearby away if the cats decide they want to wander nearby. \n\nAnd, uh, that\'s all I can think of atm.','',0,'QQ==','2qtfphea',1,0,'',575,0,0),(9108,756,15,716,0,'71.131.67.55',1148485723,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I think out door cats are ok if you live in a good neighborhood with out a lot of traffic.  However in palo alto near where I live there were some house cats that were lit on fire by some teenagers.  Also I see dead cats on the highway all the time.  We are supposed to be guardians, not just people who feed and water animals and then leave them alone.','',0,'QQ==','344m5shx',1,0,'',716,0,0),(9122,756,15,4,0,'207.200.116.195',1148497211,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','cats','I know this is an emotional issue, so I\'m sure there are stories to support any opinion.\n\nA black cat showed up at my doorstep three years ago. Very ugly (so maybe that\'s why nobody claimed her when I put up &quot;found&quot; signs).\n\nShe has stayed inside for all three years and she is very happy (as far as I can tell). I don\'t feel guilty, except perhaps for naming her a male name (Benson, after a black butler on an old sitcom of the same name). She doesn\'t dart outside when I open the door, and I have to coax her into my backyard.\n\n[quote:3sbepv69]Keeping cats indoors when they obviously want to go out?[/quote:3sbepv69] \n\nMy dog wants to run loose too, and my kids want to eat cake all day. What they want isn\'t justification for me to allow it.\n\n[quote:3sbepv69]The very idea is absurd, imo, especially when cats are natural hunters, thus belong outside where their wild counter-parts spend most of the time (inside for wild would be to burrow underground or something like that). [/quote:3sbepv69]\n\nMan is a natural hunter. That doesn\'t make it moral, or necessary, or imply that a being can\'t be happy without it. Benson likes to chase things. She bats at balls of yarn all day. It even looks like fun to me. She has an indoor playground mostly homemade. Nothing dies.\n\n[quote:3sbepv69]If you are scared of main roads. Allow them to go out in the back garden, but no further. Cat proof fencing is easily obtainable and they\'ll still have access to outside.[/quote:3sbepv69]\n\nThis is an excellent idea.\n\n[quote:3sbepv69]Scared that they\'ll kill birds? Put bells on their collars. That way the bells should scare any birds nearby away if the cats decide they want to wander nearby.[/quote:3sbepv69]\n\nBells don\'t usually work. Cats will crouch, very still, for a long time, until a bird or mouse is withing pouncing distance, and then the noise doesn\'t matter. Many things, like turtles and frogs, they can outrun.\n\nAfter one neighbor had chased another neighbor\'s cat from underneath his bedroom window for about three months (at 3 am when the cat howled, he is certain, just to annoy him), he used the cat\'s own stealth technique. He waited, very still, with a squirt gun filled with rancid milk. His plan didn\'t work as he\'d expected. Oh, he soaked the cat, and the cat jumped three feet in the air. But he didn\'t run away. He just looked at my neighbor, not surprised at all that he was there. My neighbor suddenly felt very sorry for what he\'d done. And the cat rubbed up against him. My neighbor decided it was a great nice cat. But now the cat\'s owner doesn\'t let him out at night, and my neighbor wakes up and listens for him.','',0,'gA==','3sbepv69',1,0,'',4,0,0),(9128,756,15,575,0,'81.153.139.146',1148502361,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I was only talking about birds, so bells will work (they work well enough on my friends\' companion cats), as for other creatures, I do not know, and most cats are interested in things that move about a lot. Toads just seem to sit there, not bothered, and blend in well with the grass. Mice, well, I can\'t comment, as I rarely see mice in the wild.\n\nAnd I was talking specifically about cats. Not any other animal. And if a cat wants to go out, you shouldn\'t not let him/her. Humans should do their best not to force what they want on animals, even if they think it is best, which in a lot of cases, it isn\'t. And especially when it\'s natural for them to spend a lot of time outside, as it is natural for them to be most active at night.\n\nAnd man isn\'t able to be a natural hunter. We wouldn\'t be able to catch any fair sized prey, even if we tried. We\'re more suited to just eating vegetation, tbh. Something we can handle, and without wasting pointles energy trying to catch something we cannot catch.','',0,'gA==','ituy5jt9',1,0,'',575,0,0),(9139,844,5,686,0,'172.200.235.242',1148507727,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','All im gunna say on this is.....TAKES 40 DUMB ANIMALS TO MAKE A FUR COAT,BUT ONLY 1 DUMB FUCKING EVIL BITCH TO WEAR IT <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'gA==','1xisovdx',1,0,'',686,0,0),(9142,756,15,2,0,'207.200.116.200',1148511847,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','cats vs birds','I think he knew that you were talking about birds. Here is data that shows collars help, but don\'t cut the bird kill in half (they reduce it by 41%): It\'s still a good idea, though.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.rspb.org.uk/gardens/advice/cats/collarthatcat.asp?view=print\">http://www.rspb.org.uk/gardens/advice/c ... view=print</a><!-- m -->\n\nHere\'s another good article: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.ehow.com/how_75_keep-cats-catching.html\">http://www.ehow.com/how_75_keep-cats-catching.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nI learned one thing I didn\'t know: Indoor cats have more than double the lifespan of outdoor cats.\n\nI read one thing I already knew: Cat owners are extremely defensive if anyone suggests their animal is creating a problem.\n\nOne more: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=38&amp;pf_id=1252\">http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp? ... pf_id=1252</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','3ew1rbms',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9182,756,15,510,0,'70.249.247.80',1148614071,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Happy indoor kitty campers','Interesting links with good tips.  70 million birds in the UK alone?  An astonishing number.  Most of our cat kids began their lives outdoors.  Once they got a taste of indoor luxuries, they never seemed a bit interested in returning to the wild.  They stretch out by the windows in the sun, watch the action, play with their toys and let us know when they want attention.  All in all, pretty content.','',0,'gA==','zzee6l03',1,0,'',510,0,0),(9191,844,5,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1148620509,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','OK I\'ll share it.\n\nHopefully I won\'t get banned....\n\nI like shock value\n\nI act freindly at first then ask if I can ask a personal question. I then proceed to ask the fur wearer if they like things shoved up there a___ cause thats what happened to make their coat?\n\nI figure it knocks a few years off their life and saves animals by killing them young  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI\n\nYes I have really done it. I am surprised I don\'t get my ass kicked more often.','',0,'gA==','g5wzutd1',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9212,844,5,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1148653918,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','VeganAngel....ha ha ha ha  I like your approach!!  I am gonna try that one next time.  \n\nThe last time I approached some fur skank was in a tanning salon (yes, she and her hubby sat in the hot stuffy smelly salon wearing a full length fur coat...what a fuckin moron...the salon probably stunk because of her) anyways, after I was done with her and I left the store, the girl who I knew who worked at the salon called me later and said I created quite the stir and they were FUMING and ranting and raving to anyone who would listen.  I am glad I was very blunt to her and told her what I thought of her stupid coat.  It obviously gave her something to think about.  Bitch.  Whatever approach works, then do it I say!!','',0,'gA==','zdjj45v4',1,0,'',124,0,0),(9221,844,5,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1148655271,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeah there are situations in which tact can be useful but some people need the 2 x 4 approach.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3djz04mc',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9227,844,5,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1148658550,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Love your attitude Vegan!!!  \n\n <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'gA==','2ktwbnau',1,0,'',124,0,0),(9368,844,5,487,0,'202.180.83.13',1148904808,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Well I know of someone who was convicted of &quot;threatening language&quot; for saying &quot;how would you like to be skinned&quot; to a fur store owner. He got fined.\n\nI think the best way to deal with fur is by getting those little squeezy bottles of lemon juice, it bleaches it, or chewing gum works good. I think for those who don\'t want to risk \'wilful damage\' charges should stick with the &quot;if you wear fur, watch your back&quot; stickers from PeTA.','',0,'gA==','2mcv8d15',1,0,'',487,0,0),(9369,844,5,309,0,'195.93.21.10',1148912445,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Inciter&quot;:3vggcn3y]Well I know of someone who was convicted of &quot;threatening language&quot; for saying &quot;how would you like to be skinned&quot; to a fur store owner. He got fined.\n[/quote:3vggcn3y]I shouted to someone once &quot;you should be skinned alive&quot; Its ridiculous that you can be fined for saying that.','',0,'gA==','3vggcn3y',1,0,'',309,0,0),(9402,844,5,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1149055436,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Inciter&quot;]Well I know of someone who was convicted of &quot;threatening language&quot; for saying &quot;how would you like to be skinned&quot; to a fur store owner. He got fined.\n\nYes cause that was an overt threat and can be pushed however in a legal battle if one was to ask a sexual question to an adult the worst they could do is call me a pervert so long as I do not stalk or harass that person after intial contact... all depends on the lawyer. I have had 6 legal battles never lost one including a nasty business of suing my father and being awarded his house with the right lawyer in USA law makes no difference. If you ever are in a legal tuffle find the most arrogant pompous lawyer you can it works at least in US. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','27rawsmo',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9413,936,3,779,0,'62.252.64.31',1149103302,1,0,0,0,1,0,'','death for animal killers','What if it was, like, a slug and he was suicidal anyway. What if I found this slug in bed with my wife and it was a crime of passion? I aint joking .','',0,'','3ijdd646',1,0,'',779,0,0),(9417,936,3,554,0,'66.130.197.64',1149117507,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','of course not.\n\nThat situation is totally plausible.   <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: -->','',0,'','i84x1vgs',1,0,'',554,0,0),(9432,936,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1149170532,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I am a supporter of the death penalty.  If someone kills a human or an animal, they too should have their life taken from them as well.  What goes around comes around.  Fry the bastards.','',0,'','1v32z9ya',1,0,'',124,0,0),(9439,936,3,626,0,'82.44.45.26',1149185298,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','What about killing in self defence?\n\nKilling in war? (should those soldiers who shot the civilians in Afghanistan be killed?  Or the soldiers involved in the My Lai massacure be killed?)  If so why arnt they?\n\nKilling an abusive husband?\n\nKilling a dictator?\n\nWhat makes any of them in any way ok (if you feel they are) and other forms of killing not?  Should the people involved in any of these situations who killed someone in turn themselves be killed?','',0,'','2pscjmxh',1,0,'',626,0,0),(9440,936,3,2,0,'207.200.116.200',1149187326,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','theory vs reality','The main problem I have with capital punishment is that there is no legal system on earth that hasn\'t and still doesn\'t convict some innocent people. Even &quot;eye-witnesses&quot; lie.\n\nSomeone who commits heinous crimes should be removed from society, but only in the case of someone who confesses, or is guilty beyond a one-in-100,000 chance (not &quot;beyond reasonable doubt&quot; -- that\'s absurd and not defined) would I consider killing them.','',0,'','2p3ix7g2',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9441,936,3,626,0,'82.44.45.26',1149190235,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Its not just innocent people I worry about.  What about people worldwide fighting for social change?  They are imprisoned and killed in their thousands, yes they have commited a crime, but it becomes a crime not to break a law that in itself in inheriently crime based.  In the current situation that exists now, damn, going on a AR demo may land you in jail for a few years.','',0,'','178gwltv',1,0,'',626,0,0),(9452,457,12,109,0,'207.200.116.195',1149218755,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Julie is very funny. Julie is also Paranoid. Vegetarian dinners pulling (perceived) tude on poor Julie, made her feel icky....which certainly deserves the emotion of hate,doesnt it? Julies emotioal problems come out loud and strong in her article <!-- s:moon: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_butt.gif\" alt=\":moon:\" title=\"moon\" /><!-- s:moon: --> ...Little controlling Julie getting grumpy about half cooked spuds and how others preped a meal at a party...Julies no fun at a party...poor Julie she got hurt. More Hate. Certainly the idea that 2 children who were not being fed right causing medical problems is something to inspiresome very bad feelings, but in Julie\'s case. hate..Not to mention millions of kids in the US who already are obesse and have diabetes is a hateful thing...o but back to hating on vegetarians............Julie, me thinks your problem might be emotion related not diet.\n\nilish','',0,'','mwktf9rd',1,0,'',109,0,0),(9454,936,3,369,0,'68.239.90.176',1149244953,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have a strong stance against federal prisons, and the &quot;justice&quot; system for several reasons. The best choice to me would be to ship them to a desalate island with a rigorous climate and some animals to hunt them down. I would  like to see them die by the hands of nature herself. Though this seems like a dream,  the irony is beautiful.','',0,'','kftcxkcv',1,0,'',369,0,0),(9486,936,3,638,0,'80.216.4.70',1149393353,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Kill ém all...','The question, however serious, is a no-brainer to me...Without any doubt what so ever my answer is: I would FULLY support the death sentence for animal killers.\nMy thoughts regarding the whole issue of condemning innocent people is that i think, in this scenario we are debating here, there is strong reason to belive that IF the death penalty would exist..just the fact that you could be executed for your crimes towards the animals would scare of enough scum doing these things to animals that if every now and again some one &quot;innocent&quot; was put out would absolutely be worth it considering the amount of animals that would be saved.\nFurthermore IF someone was on trial for crimes towards animals and the capital punishment was thought of for that person,that person most CERTAINLY would have an history of earlier abuse regarding animals and that would, at least in my book erase the &quot;inocent&quot; stamp on that person even if he/she would be innocent of the crimes on that particular trial..But then again, the life of humans mean nothing to me compared to the life of animals..','',0,'','2a0lrz5s',1,0,'',638,0,0),(9493,936,3,626,0,'82.44.45.26',1149424550,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Te death penalty does not deter criminals, in any way shape or form.','',0,'','17ddjjry',1,0,'',626,0,0),(9495,936,3,105,0,'62.254.0.57',1149426444,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:a4ragvfd]First thing I should tell you is that I live directly across from a brackish water area (brackish is salt but low content some fresh and salt water babies can grow there) it has recently been altered for the better by the Army Core of Engineers. There is a field right behind the beach. Then a road and my home/wildlife habitat. It is a decent size but severly damaged right now due to bad flooding last year. No humans were hurt just lots of home and land damage. I grow a variety of things on it. Herbs, veggies, fruits, and just about anything else. I use all natural planting methods no herbicides or pesticides. I have a waterfall but it is not functioning now working on repairs. I also put in a small phony beach around the waterfall which is repaired since flooding for the birds to take sandbaths. I have about 10 birdhouses. I also have a bat house(not roosted in yet but we have bats frequenting the area bats take up 10 yrs to adopt a new home that is added I only added it 2 yrs ago). We are visited by all the local birds we have hawks and eagles in the area they swoop in catch prey and leave. I hire help every year but do most of it myself. I have a couple of volunteers who help out in early spring for a few days which is when most work needs to be done. I also have housing for feral cats which I give as much medical care as I can people assume it is good to drop off their unwanteds here. No I am not a collector by any means (I know you did not ask but a ? I have gotten in the past) I currently have 1 indoor cat 1 indoor dog and two feral cats completely outdoors. \n\nList of some things I grow:\n\nStrawberries, raspberries, gooseberries, grapes, peaches, pears, wugelia, roses, marshmallows, firepokers, porcelain berries, trumpet vines, cucmbers, tomatoes, lettuce, kale, basil, dandelions(specifically planted neighbors hate me  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> ) cherry tree, kiwi vines, honeysuckle, parsley, rosemary, chives, oregano, thyme, lavender, onions, garlic, orange tree (one no produce yet still young), butterfly bushes, butterfly weed, elderberries, turtle\'s head \n\nwell thats a majority I also have other various flowers and herbs about 10 pine trees and some other minor things.\ndo you grow beetroot, I do and I grow carrots cabbage, onions and other things and I dont use chemicals or pesticides either. If I am ever in the US I will look you up, does RI stand for Rhode Island.\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:a4ragvfd]','',0,'gA==','a4ragvfd',1,0,'',105,0,0),(9496,936,3,105,0,'62.254.0.57',1149426711,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sorry about that  Vegan_ Angel I was supposed to write a message underneath but I mucked it up.','',0,'gA==','1vnq20m9',1,0,'',105,0,0),(9498,936,3,105,0,'62.254.0.57',1149427854,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','vegan_Angel your place sounds interesting, if I am ever in the US  I   will look you up.','',0,'gA==','1lslrf5s',1,0,'',105,0,0),(9544,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1149575409,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','cool I am now cooking (only some meals) with a solar oven.\n\nI get more freakish by the day\n\n <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1nal91nl',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9564,936,3,638,0,'80.216.4.70',1149617180,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','well,i dont know...','I have read some of your comments,veganangel and i gotto tell you that you sound like an truly amazing person!just wanted to say that...all the best.. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','2oi8sr4f',1,0,'',638,0,0),(9575,936,3,801,0,'82.10.178.137',1149685243,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My View on the Death Penalty is that it should be for Murderers and Sex Offenders and Peadophilia.\n\nTo me, People who accept that Animal Testing is alrite, they should have the Death Penalty <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: --> \n\nBut that would be too easy eh <!-- s:x --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif\" alt=\":x\" title=\"Mad\" /><!-- s:x --> \nId make sure they were kept in a cramped up cage, in direct sunlight, and with only enough water to keep em alive.\nThen Id see if rubbing untested Shampoo in their eyes hurt or had any effect.... or see what happens when you link a 250v Battery to the cage bars.\n\n^^^ Now thats punishment in my opinion <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'gA==','tsck0v1v',1,0,'',801,0,0),(9577,844,5,801,0,'82.10.178.137',1149686056,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Inciter&quot;:2igcnmgz]Well I know of someone who was convicted of &quot;threatening language&quot; for saying &quot;how would you like to be skinned&quot; to a fur store owner. He got fined.\n\nI think the best way to deal with fur is by getting those little squeezy bottles of lemon juice, it bleaches it, or chewing gum works good. I think for those who don\'t want to risk \'wilful damage\' charges should stick with the &quot;if you wear fur, watch your back&quot; stickers from PeTA.[/quote:2igcnmgz]\n\nHey.... I recall up West London, some bitch had a long fur coat on, and I bought some Vimto (the cunt of all stainers)  .... I \'tripped over\' and some of it splashed up her back, and she didnt notice..... but she did notice when I dropped a calling card in her hood.\nThat jacket was totalled..... big purple splat up her back and a calling card in her hood <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'gA==','2igcnmgz',1,0,'',801,0,0),(9641,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1149731841,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','THX Ballo I am going crazy right now loads of rain and getting flooded out again and I can\'t even use my solar oven  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1nc3rgbq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9649,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1149763185,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:2l3nxxfh]THX Ballo I am going crazy right now loads of rain and getting flooded out again and I can\'t even use my solar oven  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:2l3nxxfh]\n\nI wish I could get some of that rain.Been hauling sixteen 5 gallon buckets of water up from the creek 2 at a time by hand for the garden everyday.Think my arms are geting alittl longer.','',0,'gA==','2l3nxxfh',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9664,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1149810404,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter\n\nIsn\'t that the way.... one area gets so much rain it kills the crops and others get none. \n\nHow far is the creek from your garden is it possible to build a pump carrier? If you need some advice feel free to ask I know a little about pumps also consider a spike well if a regular well is impractical where you are. Spike wells are cheaper it is literally a long hollow spike imbedded deep in the earth and you pump and can pull water that way. Just some thoughts depending on how often you need to carry water.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','rogsadm0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9671,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1149849783,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:3d1cy547]Kriter\n\nIsn\'t that the way.... one area gets so much rain it kills the crops and others get none. \n\nHow far is the creek from your garden is it possible to build a pump carrier? If you need some advice feel free to ask I know a little about pumps also consider a spike well if a regular well is impractical where you are. Spike wells are cheaper it is literally a long hollow spike imbedded deep in the earth and you pump and can pull water that way. Just some thoughts depending on how often you need to carry water.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:3d1cy547]\n\nYeah,seems to be the way it is.     Got a real littl sprinkle yesterday when I got home from work wert nomore then rabbit spit.Iv been having to water everyday cuz it being so dry.Usally in the summer we get thunderstorms every evening.Water coming off the roofs of my outbuildings fill up my buckets on the ground.So far this been the dryest first part of summer I seen.\nThe creek mite be round 50 feet away,its rite close,down a steep short bank.Bank deep enuff I never seen the water get up to the garden during no storm.The creek is geting low alredy too.But I found a deep spot big enuff to put a whole bucket in.Always make sure Im not geting any minnos,mudbugs or any other criters out the creek.Its work sure enuff but I like to think it to be  late day xcerise.I like doing as much as I can manuly.But I think my arms done streched almost enuff to tie my shoes with out bending over.A naybor had a pump run off gas.Dont care for gas engines  being close to the water.Does the pump carrier you talking about run off fuel or the moving water?','',0,'gA==','3d1cy547',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9681,1252,22,813,0,'208.54.15.1',1149874599,1,0,0,0,1,0,'','What About Plant Rights?','All this talk about animal rights, what about out botanical friends?  Strikes me as species arrogance, the idea that life forms considerably different than ours are somehow inferior is absurd.  Frequently you animal rights people refer to animals suffering pain and that somehow makes them higher up the hierarchy of the living than plants.  Well research has shown that plants feel the botanical equivalant of pain.  Pioneering research by Jagdish Bose in the 1920\'s  showed plants generating electrical impulses in response to heat and other stimulli.  This research contimues today in New Zealand, at the University of Otago, where Danny Macnamera is doing groundbreaking research in this field.  I belong to a like minded group of people, passionately committed to botanical protection for our plant friends.  I urge you to visit the Plant Liberation Front at: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://alexbarzaga.tripod.com/index.htm\">http://alexbarzaga.tripod.com/index.htm</a><!-- m -->\nExpad your thought horizons!','',0,'gA==','3hadx4z4',1,0,'',813,0,0),(9683,1252,22,2,0,'207.200.116.200',1149877979,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','cut you some slack','You\'re supposed to read the forum guidelines, which tell you to read the FAQs before posting, and the FAQs already answer your &quot;questions&quot; (see link, below).\n\nWe\'ll cut you some slack because your web site is pretty funny, and we appreciate that. We have a lot of humor on our site too\n\nBy the way, there are some animal rights activists who are fruitarians (they only eat fruit because it doesn\'t kill the plant).\n\nAnimal Rights philosophy suggests that one should do the least harm possible (it never claims that one can achieve perfection -- what philosophy does?). So, even if we learn that plants have feelings, one could conclude that eating animals that eat plants harms more plants than eating them directly (I think it\'s been calculated to be a factor of 10).\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Morality/Biology/InsectAR.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Ph ... sectAR.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','gdnkckwy',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9708,1186,16,737,0,'83.67.139.76',1149963345,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Argg it\'s all so sick!\n\nI have been sending the PETA factsheet with a covering letter to pet shops ever since I knew about this (working my way through the yellow pages).  I honestly don\'t think most pet shop owners can know about it!','',0,'gA==','w2spl042',1,0,'',737,0,0),(9731,1186,16,554,0,'24.200.249.118',1150033303,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Are you kidding?  When I tried to discuss it with our vet: SHE didn\'t know about it!   <!-- s:eyes: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eyes.gif\" alt=\":eyes:\" title=\"confused\" /><!-- s:eyes: --> What an idiot!  At least she doesn\'t sell the stuff, but I had to &quot;educate&quot;her.  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> \n\nWe found a new vet...thank you very much.','',0,'gA==','3mn7b13y',1,0,'',554,0,0),(9734,1186,16,19,0,'24.12.134.55',1150035626,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It is shocking to find out how many people are in the dark about this.  Iams/Euanuba has a plethera of spokespeople that are in high reguard in the welfare world.  They vividly deny that any testing has happend.  They also get paid very well for their endorsements.  Anyone that would sell out like that is not worth the air they breathe.','',0,'gA==','35kj9nm7',1,0,'',19,0,0),(9745,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1150088124,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hand pumps run on soy  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  . You need to prime them each time you use them with a bit of water and you need to change the gasket yearly but they pull at a decent speed if you are muscular.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1qflr14l',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9748,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150112484,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:4j98hwz5]Hand pumps run on soy  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  . You need to prime them each time you use them with a bit of water and you need to change the gasket yearly but they pull at a decent speed if you are muscular.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:4j98hwz5]\n\nOk,you was talking about a hand pump.You said carrier,that thru me off.I get it now,sory.\nI gru up with one in the back yard.\nIt finally rained this morning,yeeehaaaaa.And the creek was up big time.Had a littl trouble geting thru it to get out to go to work just cuz the water was cloudy and couldnt see what was under it.But no water come in the truk door this time.','',0,'gA==','4j98hwz5',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9749,936,3,815,0,'62.254.128.7',1150117834,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If they kill an animal then they should have to pay the consequences','',0,'gA==','1cbtmx70',1,0,'',815,0,0),(9751,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150120648,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Jo1234&quot;:1o196hwb]If they kill an animal then they should have to pay the consequences[/quote:1o196hwb]\n\nI agree.','',0,'gA==','1o196hwb',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9770,1252,22,812,0,'67.164.208.220',1150169159,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','PLF rules','Hey Fred,\nSaw your blog today while I was in Spain. Wanted to tell you about something disturbing I found out that happens every year in Spain. Every year in Valencia they have this festival called La tomatina that has hundreds of people throwing over 90,000 pounds of tomato for pleasure. Then many of these people bath in the blood of brother for hours. Now this may sound kinda of extreme and stupid to some, including the ALF. I wonder however if there was a festival that would throw the animals, like bunnies for example agaisn\'t each other and then everyone just bathed in the blood of bunnies would the ALF have the same feeling towards this. PROBABLY NOT! Just a thought! Anyways keep up the good work! <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: -->','',0,'gA==','pblf2tto',1,0,'',812,0,0),(9772,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1150171670,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter,\n\nDepending on how the creek is in conjunction with your garden you could put a hand pump in the creek and a wooden sealed slope and flood your garden by hand pump thus carrying the water to your garden. Sealed wood can last for many years outdoors.\n\nJust a possible.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','80qcefo6',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9773,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1150172204,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','As a person who supports the ALF I oppose throwing tomatoes for fun.\n\nHumans are animals. If I want to save as many animals as possible I would need to bare minimal feed and water as many of them as possible. With an average of 20,000 people starving to death daily anyone throwing food for entertainment (if things worked the way they should) would automatically give up their life for the child who would starve to death due to their stupidity. If that sounds harsh stare into the eyes of a mother and father as their child is dying from lack of food.\n\nAs for throwing bunnies well if you have any imagination and you apply it to the fact that I think death penalty should be applied to a food waster I think you know how I feel about that.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2ot9si3r',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9775,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150193341,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:3ja1cezc]Kriter,\n\nDepending on how the creek is in conjunction with your garden you could put a hand pump in the creek and a wooden sealed slope and flood your garden by hand pump thus carrying the water to your garden. Sealed wood can last for many years outdoors.\n\nJust a possible.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:3ja1cezc]\n\n\nHey,thats a good thawt.I mite beable to do somthing with that.The creek is down hill big time from the garden but somthing like your talking about mite still work.Ill hav to do some figuring.Thank you kindly  VeganAngel.\nAre you off grid?Well water?\nThis mite be a interesting subject to post about.Im wondering if anyother AR folks  useing this site lives simple,in the woods,country,or a wilderness area.Maybe a good thing to go in the Open topics.','',0,'gA==','3ja1cezc',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9776,1252,22,815,0,'62.254.128.4',1150193574,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.islamicconcern.com/plants.asp\">http://www.islamicconcern.com/plants.asp</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','5epn22qt',1,0,'',815,0,0),(9778,1252,22,823,0,'67.164.208.220',1150216231,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','PLF members are crazy','A wise word to the ALF. I have had a chance to run into some of these PLF people in the past. I remember I was at a corn festival and several of them showered my wife and I with rotten corn. They kept chanting that we were eating babies. Ridiculous. A word to the PLF please tell Jack Johnson that I looking for him.','',0,'gA==','dlu5ncjy',1,0,'',823,0,0),(9785,1252,22,813,0,'67.160.203.238',1150253764,1,0,0,0,1,0,'','','Thank you Ann B. for you courtious and timely response to my initial post.   I read with interest your posted &quot;FAQ\'s&quot;, which I might point out do not (in my view) equal facts, but rather assumptions and opinions (although they are certainly well written and literate).  The crux of the matter being &quot;plants are a different sort of life form compared to humans and other animals, their system does not have a brain and central nervous sytem like animals, therefore they cannot feel pain in the sense that animals do and without a brain they are not sentient beings and are therefore inferior and ok to eat&quot;.  Yes I simplified and paraphrased, but as I understand it, that\'s the ALF viewpoint.  However as I not very ablily wrote in my earlier post, it really is an example of species arrogance.  You assume that because the botanical life form is different from our own and without a brain they are incapable of feeling pain.  Experiments show plants send electrical energy in response to stimuli, again you assume without an animal like brain that they feel nothing.  What if the nervous system is throughout their bodies.  In other words the pain is felt at the location of injury, and the electrical energy sent out is the plants scream?  We at the PLF believe this to be the case.  Last you pose 2 questions for people who believe that plants feel pain:\n\n &quot;The absurdity (and often disingenuity) of the plant-pain promoters can be easily exposed by asking them the following two questions:\n    1) Do you agree that animals like dogs and cats should receive pain-killing drugs prior to surgery?\n    2) Do you believe that plants should receive pain-killing drugs prior to pruning? --DG&quot;\n\n1) I want no living creature, plant or animal to suffer pain.  Surgery for animals should be a last resort and pain-killing drugs should be used.\n2) I do not prune my plants and trees as they are not pruned in their native state and I have no business enforcing a human viewpoint of what they should look like on our botanical friends.  If it was the only way to save the life of the tree or plant I would prune, but with great sorrow as I would know that I was inflicting pain on a living being.  If there was a plant painkiller I would most certainly use it.\nRegards, Frederick Barnes','',0,'gA==','1ehi61rs',1,0,'',813,0,0),(9788,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1150257750,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter,\n\nNot totally but I lean toward it. I have a spike well as I said but use that for mostly garden water as it is not the clearest. I have two Amish made dryers to dry my clothes (I still do some in the dryer but more than half done off the dryer). I cook with my solar oven. Many of the electrical appliances I use are energy efficient. I have a device nonelectric which I recycle my non glossy mail and newspaper in after mixing it with water which makes alternative logs for a wood burning stove which I heat my home with in winter. I still use some wood but I buy less this way. In winter I cook on my wood burning stove and now I will also be able to use my solar oven in winter in combo with the stove. I am going to invest in a radio which runs on your choice of four levels 1) solar 2) hand cranking for rainy days 3) battery 4) wall socket. It is an emergency radio that has AM/FM/7 bands of Shortwave/Siren/3 LED white flashlight/Flashing red light. So those are my main things right now off grid always looking for more ways but finances at times are a problem in the conversion. I don\'t think I will ever totally go off grid but by removing many sections of my life from the grid it helps somewhat and also helps save money in the long run. \n\nA possible solution for your garden is to have the pump connected to a pipe as if underground except next to a sturdy ladder above ground which could help make up for the differential of height problem. Also if going to be pumping on a ladder you might want to look for a pump that has a spinning crank as that may be easier than an up and down crank on a ladder/platform.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','247jile8',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9792,936,3,19,0,'207.195.240.128',1150280191,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Vegan Angel,\n\nI have to know what the device for recycling mail is, and where I can buy one!\n\nL','',0,'gA==','1ikglkeu',1,0,'',19,0,0),(9794,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150283564,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Angel,thank you kindly for the pump advice.If I go that way the crank maybe better.I have one of them radios.Looking into geting one of them hand crank blenders.I live in a trailer so Im looking for a trailer aproved woodstove.I live off grid.Dry my clothes on a line outback.Im always looking for useful nonelectric stuff.Got a propane frig from Lehmans.Aint had a lick of trouble with it other then paying the propane bill,it being my only utility bill side from the cell fone I hav for emergencys that stays home. Dont cary it nowair.Im thinking on diging a cellar to keep things cool.\nCan you tell us about that recycling glossy mail gadget?','',0,'gA==','1chmbye6',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9796,1252,22,309,0,'195.93.21.70',1150283985,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Applesaviour, lets just assume for a moment the possibility that plants can feel pain. Even if that were the case, meateaters still cause more suffering by eating animals and causing a demand for animals who in turn eat plants. The meateater causes the death of both animals and plants. Veganism is about taking the path of least harm. Just because we cannot live our lives without causing any harm does not mean we shouldn\'t try to limit our harmful impact on this planet. That is what veganism is about. None of us is 100% perfect.','',0,'gA==','14g822z7',1,0,'',309,0,0),(9799,1252,22,801,0,'82.10.178.137',1150289473,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I go outside a pick a twig of Tyme off my bush and cook it with Potatoes.\n-\nI go and terrorise my chickens, then slice their throat and pick the feathers off.\n\n\nWhats the difference?\n1 Suffers pain and needless agony, whereas the other does not feel a thing and therefore is not suffering <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->','',0,'gA==','38vstm6w',1,0,'',801,0,0),(9801,1252,22,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1150293443,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Just curious, do PLF supporters eat a fruitarian diet?  What about clothes - cotton?','',0,'gA==','pwbd879o',1,0,'',444,0,0),(9804,1252,22,369,0,'70.108.53.244',1150300407,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','**','',0,'gA==','32yqq18v',1,1155360059,'',369,1,0),(9805,1252,22,801,0,'82.10.178.137',1150301591,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','They must be smoking something.... or would that be harming a plant too <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: --> \n\nPlants do feel pain. FACT','',0,'gA==','2si1yhy4',1,0,'',801,0,0),(9807,1252,22,2,0,'207.200.116.200',1150305141,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','FACTS','[quote:2wovm2pz]SE16: Plants do feel pain. FACT[/quote:2wovm2pz]\n\nThere is a link to an article, above, that refutes this. Part of brainstorming is to discuss ideas. Illogical ideas can be ignored. Humor can be ignorned. Chit-chat can be ignored. But ignoring a well thought out reply as if it didn\'t exist and moving on is NOT in any way, shape or form, considered a part brainstorming.\n\nIt is one of the the most certain ways to wear out your welcome here.\n\nI have a zero tolerance policy for stupidity, unless of course it\'s my own.','',0,'gA==','2wovm2pz',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9816,1252,22,832,0,'24.23.63.131',1150343880,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;seamoss22&quot;:11afn6mx]Just curious, do PLF supporters eat a fruitarian diet?  What about clothes - cotton?[/quote:11afn6mx]\n\nTo answer your question Seamoss22, i have been a proud member for the PLF for 5 some odd years and coming from Maine (way up in the &quot;sticks&quot;) i have had my far share of ridicule about being in the PLF. I for one eat strickly meat since most fruits do originally &quot;stem&quot; from plants (apples/oranges are grown from trees, thus trees are plants).\nAs for your inquiring on what whether cotton is worn...not by me and many of my PLF friends. I for one have been proudly wearing polyester since the 70\'s and have also been known to wear leather (especially during those long cold Maine winters). I actually have a friend who is currently starting an all Leather clothing line if you are intrested. \n\nHope this answers your questions...  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','11afn6mx',1,0,'',832,0,0),(9817,1252,22,832,0,'24.23.63.131',1150344095,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;SE16&quot;:25nki55i]They must be smoking something.... or would that be harming a plant too <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: --> \n\nPlants do feel pain. FACT[/quote:25nki55i]\n\n <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> HAHA SE16, you are a funny one. But you are in fact right, smoking of any type of &quot;herb&quot; product would be in fact against everything that i stand for in the aspect of protecting plants against being hurt and ripped from their &quot;roots&quot;. Glad to see you have a sense of humor over the whole PLF movement, no one is poking fun at you and your involvement with wanting to save and protect the animals....hmmmmm  <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: -->','',0,'gA==','25nki55i',1,0,'',832,0,0),(9829,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1150416956,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','PLF \n\nWhat of the fact that animals eat plants? Or do you eat strictly carnivorous animals? If I wish to save plants I would have to kill the least possible at bare minimum thus feeding a cow which eats more than me and then feeding myself on that cow would kill more plants mathematically. Does your group support overall picture or short term because long term meat eaters eat veggies second hand for tracing back through carnivorous lines you eventually come to a plant eater. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','198m3qes',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9840,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1150432383,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter and Disc,\n\nIt is non glossy mail/newspaper/old phonebooks and what not it can recycle. Here is a link to the item. Just rip up the paper mix with water, fill it into the brick maker and dry. (You can collect rain water in trash barrels that way no wasted water.) \n\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=5788&amp;itemType=PRODUCT&amp;RS=1&amp;keyword=brick+maker\">http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product ... rick+maker</a><!-- m -->\n\nDisc do you heat with wood if not the product would be a waste of money  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> I know nothing about your home so....\n\nAlso Kriter I cannot find any crank well pumps however here is a link to some solar powered pumps that may be of some help.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.conergy.us/Desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-157/224_read-1768/\">http://www.conergy.us/Desktopdefault.as ... read-1768/</a><!-- m -->\n\nKriter do you use gas lighting in your home? That is one thing that keeps me on grid I am scared of gas lights. I work nights and often don\'t eat dinner till around midnight so I need lights.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2gowcpzs',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9842,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1150438847,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i believe a life is for a life. If a human kills an animal, the human should be killed. If a human kills a human, the killer should be killed.\n\nhowever when it comes to an animal killing an animal (nd i know some people will use the \'but humans are animals\') that is how nature was intended. The difference is some animals need to eat meat because that is the only way the get the nutrients they need. A human does\'nt need to eat meat because people such as veggies, vegans nd fruitarians are still able to survive without it.\n\nAt the end of the day to some people ignorance is bliss, sometimes i just wish they would open their eyes.  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: -->','',0,'gA==','1u3yhsli',1,0,'',836,0,0),(9845,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150455514,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I like what you say crumbs.\nAngel,my house is run off deep cell batterys,lik what runs a golf cart.I hav a inverter and charge the batterys with a propane generator.It works lik a house on grid.But I hav to be alot more conserative with the electricity.I have a few camping lamps that run off batterys I use if I just need alittl lite,keep by my bed and by the kitchen sink and in the bathroom. I use a regular electric lamp to read.It dont use much power.Been wanting solar but it aint free. But its still my goal.Iv lived this way a rite long time,sure enuff.I  live as simple as I can and always looking for simpler ways and ideas that dont cost lots of money.My system was alot cheeper then runing over a mile of cable to my house just for electricity.Didnt want no trees cut down and replaced with power poles and cable.My trailer is small and Im the only homosapein at this resadense.The dogs and cats dont care if they got no lites.\nThank you kindly for the paper brick thing idea and site,thats rite cool.','',0,'gA==','mioto7ly',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9851,1252,22,369,0,'70.108.78.86',1150475004,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;PLF4life&quot;:747dzu83][quote=&quot;seamoss22&quot;:747dzu83]Just curious, do PLF supporters eat a fruitarian diet?  What about clothes - cotton?[/quote:747dzu83]\n\nTo answer your question Seamoss22, i have been a proud member for the PLF for 5 some odd years and coming from Maine (way up in the &quot;sticks&quot;) i have had my far share of ridicule about being in the PLF. I for one eat strickly meat since most fruits do originally &quot;stem&quot; from plants (apples/oranges are grown from trees, thus trees are plants).\nAs for your inquiring on what whether cotton is worn...not by me and many of my PLF friends. I for one have been proudly wearing polyester since the 70\'s and have also been known to wear leather (especially during those long cold Maine winters). I actually have a friend who is currently starting an all Leather clothing line if you are intrested. \n\nHope this answers your questions...  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:747dzu83]\n\nSee, I do not understand. You kill more plants by eating meat then you would as a vegan or fruitarian, and you say you basically live on meat. Also Plants have no central nervous system, brain or sense of self and no conscience for that matter. So how can you support animal abuse when clearly there are obvious reasons to conclude that animals have all of the above features, and plants do not, and its very  unlikely that plants feel pain when the latter has irrefutable evidence. So I find your ideas illogical to say the least, but maybe you could provide some insight?','',0,'gA==','747dzu83',1,0,'',369,0,0),(9852,1252,22,840,0,'67.160.203.238',1150487267,1,0,0,1,1,0,'','Do Animals have a Conscience??','Well plants are a life form very different from our own.  We have a brain and central nervous system and they do not, we take in oxygen and give off cardon doixide.  Plants take in carbon dioxide and &quot;convert&quot; it to oxygen, which we humans are utterly dependent on or our continued survival on the planet.  Human\'s have a conscience, but I would dispute the view that animals have anything that even vaguely resembles a conscience.  After all a cow funcyioning as a bovine rototiller machine, will not only consume huge quanities of grasses, but will then regurgitate it and chew it again.  A cow has no conscience, it eats as feed something we are ulitimately dependent on for survival, ergo I have no problem eating beef.  A contrarian point of view.\nStephanie','',0,'gA==','3fmzid7g',1,0,'',840,0,0),(9853,1252,22,827,0,'207.19.134.3',1150491454,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Is PLF4life a troll? Against killing plants but no problem killing animals? Can\'t wrap my mind around that.','',0,'gA==','5f983mha',1,0,'',827,0,0),(9857,1252,22,554,0,'24.200.249.118',1150498362,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','They are playing with your head. Remember the bonsaikitten panic?\nPeople will say anything to get a rise out of you.','',0,'gA==','19309pxw',1,0,'',554,0,0),(9860,1252,22,1,0,'67.160.203.238',1150516963,1,0,0,1,1,0,'oneriverlvr','I\'m Confused','I\'ve been a vegetarian for several years now.  But lately am starting to question the ethicacy of being vegetarian (went vegetarian for ethical reasons rather than dietary ones).  I live in the desert in the Western U.S. and out here we have cryptobiotic soil, literally the living soil of the land.   It is composed of lichen, moss and cyanobacteria.  Togeteher they form a living protective crust for the desert.  The point to all this is that over time is I\'ve begun to think of this soil as a sacred life form.  That thought is making me question the idea that animals are more valuable and worthwhile than plants.','',0,'gA==','11ozjoez',1,0,'',1,0,0),(9861,1252,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1150518097,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','questioning','To question is good, but it\'s not logical to make statements without defining the key words, such as &quot;valuable&quot;.\n\nOn this forum you must present your logical reasons for any statement. If people use how they &quot;feel&quot;, then anything goes. It is required that members read the FAQs, which explains why measured sentience is a key factor in animal rights philosophy. If you take exception the the logic presented you must show your work.','',0,'gA==','3knk2v7w',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9862,1252,22,840,0,'67.160.203.238',1150518706,1,0,0,1,1,0,'','Bonsaikitten Panic?','It\'s hard for me to see the connection between a farcial kitten-in-a-bottle spoof and someone saying they have genuine difficulty finding a greater sense of worth in animals compared to plant life.','',0,'gA==','18edsulx',1,0,'',840,0,0),(9863,1252,22,1,0,'67.160.203.238',1150519555,1,0,0,1,1,0,'oneriverlvr','Valuable?','That\'s a good question; &quot;What do I mean by valuable?&quot;.  I wish I was better at expressing what I think and feel, but I\'ll try.  I\'ve been out here in the desert for almost 10 years and I\'ve seen how hardy the plant life is here, existing on little water and in a harsh environment, very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter.  The plant, small trees and the living soil have taken on a majestic appeal for me.  The cryptobiotic soil lives for several hundred years, unless trampled by humans or worse ravaged by jeeps or motorcycles.  While it\'s true these are mostly inedible plants (except for parts of cacti), my view of the desert plant world has changed my view of things and I\'ve started to think of them as being worthy of the same step on the platform of living things as animals. I\'m starting to feel guilty about eating vegetables.','',0,'gA==','30enxztt',1,0,'',1,0,0),(9866,1252,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1150548228,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','fruitarians','If you are serious then become a fruitarian. Eating fruit doesn\'t kill a plant. There are healthy fruitarians.\n   But eating animals, who eat 10 times more plants for their weight, is clearly the wrong choice. So, if you feel guilty about eating plants, you are either a vegetarian or you will work to become one.\n   It\'s understood by ARAs that in order to live, some other life will die. It is our goal to minimize suffering. If you accept the illogical position that if a person creates SOME suffering it\'s okay to create MORE suffering, than the world is not safe from you, and you are immoral.','',0,'gA==','17yexfi8',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9867,1252,22,796,0,'86.133.175.108',1150560860,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','wouldnt it hurt the plant when you picke dthe fruit off it though?','',0,'gA==','hkdy5awd',1,0,'',796,0,0),(9868,1252,22,1,0,'67.160.203.238',1150564196,1,0,0,1,1,0,'oneriverlvr','Fruit stuff','Well two things about fruit:\n1)  Can I get enough nutrition from a strictly fruitarian diet?  \n2)  I don\'t have an aversion to eating fruit as, when ripe the fruit will fall from the plant or tree anyway.  Therefore I see no &quot;pain&quot; issue with the plant (if plants can feel pain).  Of course I am disrupting the plant or trees ability to propagate, as when animals eat fruit they will expel the seeds at a later time and place, potentially furthering the spread of the species.  When humans eat fruit in any westernized nation we will discharge the seeds into a sewage system that ensures the distruction of the seeds.','',0,'gA==','2avme14x',1,0,'',1,0,0),(9869,1252,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1150567152,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','a link','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.fruitarian.com/\">http://www.fruitarian.com/</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','38iqfbis',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9870,1252,22,626,0,'82.44.45.26',1150586033,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Any of you PLF members/supporters have any solid scientific proof to back up your claims? (and no I dont mean \'the secret life of plants\' which I have read).  You are all speculating on plant life without providing any evidence to back up your claims.','',0,'gA==','23t2l6r3',1,0,'',626,0,0),(9872,1252,22,554,0,'24.200.249.118',1150592020,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Bonsaikitten Panic?','[quote=&quot;sierrapix&quot;:21b67thr]It\'s hard for me to see the connection between a farcial kitten-in-a-bottle spoof and someone saying they have genuine difficulty finding a greater sense of worth in animals compared to plant life.[/quote:21b67thr]\n\nThat\'s just it: a farce. I am just a little tired of being told by people who chose meat that their choice is the best.\n\nTHIS IS NOTHING BUT MY PERSONAL OPINION!  I see this PLF as nothing but a joke.  AGAIN: PERSONAL OPINION.\n\nBetween killing a cow and eating a salad... must I continue?\n\nBut I am being rude.  I don\'t mean it.  For the people who truly believe that eating meat causes less pain then eating plants... go right ahead, but if you are so worried about causing less pain: would you be willing to murder the animal yourself?  That\'s an honest question.','',0,'gA==','21b67thr',1,0,'',554,0,0),(9873,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1150604406,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No problem Kriter, I think it is wild you are off grid. I doubt I will ever totally go off but I keep reducing slowly but surely. Just got a new energy efficient freezer as I freeze lots of my crops and need a full freezer. I also make these deliscious kale patties to freeze and even my own raviolis (vegan with danadelion greens and wine). If you have any tips that you feel like posting I\'d be thrilled to read them. I am not just aiming for off grid but off any utility that I can. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3efuia69',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9879,1252,22,1,0,'67.160.203.238',1150655553,1,0,0,1,1,0,'oneriverlvr','Going to go Fruitarian','Thanks for the fruitarian link, lots of good information there.  I\'\'m going to give a fruitarian diet a try, I have some concerns about getting enough nutrition to mainatain my active outdoor lifestyle, but I\'m going to see how it goes.  It just feels right to me, I can respect both plant and animals life.','',0,'gA==','2o1n1jqq',1,0,'',1,0,0),(9886,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1150700228,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','tyran the tyrant: i dont understand ?! what is it you \'dont\' ? please explain.','',0,'gA==','stp36k60',1,0,'',836,0,0),(9889,936,3,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1150720503,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','I don\'t','I think he/she would be answering the question that is the title of the thread.','',0,'gA==','1c3tmm6d',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9893,844,5,19,0,'71.201.153.152',1150723574,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Anyone can get financing for a fur coat in the states.  Its sick.  Bad credit, no credit, any credit they will approve you.  It is disgusting!','',0,'gA==','1ggw0msl',1,0,'',19,0,0),(9897,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1150728658,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','ah okay thanks for that. lol i kind of got a bit lost because of the trail of convo before it. ha ha','',0,'gA==','2ov6yua8',1,0,'',836,0,0),(9909,1252,22,850,0,'72.148.121.122',1150774038,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','applesavior how tall is your grass?','',0,'gA==','300oyfeb',1,0,'',850,0,0),(9916,1252,22,840,0,'67.160.203.238',1150776782,1,0,0,1,1,0,'','Grass Length','Well Tyran, applesavior has been locked out of the &quot;free speech&quot; forum, apparently a frank discussion of opposing points of view is not what the ALF is all about.  Rather challenge AR philosophy all you want, just don\'t do it well or with any intellectual vigor, or out you go.  In any event applesavior is a good friend of mine and a fellow memebr of the PLF.  Neither of us mows the grass if that\'s what you mean by your question.  The PLF does not support planting grass for the aesthetic enjoyment of people nor do we tolerate the idea of cutting grass to some determined length.  Grass should be left to grow in it\'s natural state.','',0,'gA==','108si0xa',1,0,'',840,0,0),(9918,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1150785832,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i kind of agree with what you say. I agree with you that someone molesting a child and someone killing a person should deserve death, i mentioned that in my post above. But at the same time what right has a person to kill another living thing ? i cant agree with that, but i\'ll agree to disagree with you.\n\ntc','',0,'gA==','369y7hwg',1,0,'',836,0,0),(9919,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150800046,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If punishment for murdering people is death then punishment for murdering animals shud be the same.Im not talking about accidents,I talking about killing a critter on perpiss.\nI read in the paper a car dealership owner killed a cat for geting on his fancy cars he was fixing up at his home.The cat belonged to his naybors.That dude was charged and  fixing to go to court.He said he didnt kno it was his naybors cat.I say what diference does that make.He shot the cat cuz it got on his car.The cat crawled back to its house and died at home.This all happened in a subdivision of McMansions.The dude shud be tryd for murder.','',0,'gA==','3ey8tmfw',1,1150832806,'',454,1,0),(9920,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150800189,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:eanhubvc]No problem Kriter, I think it is wild you are off grid. I doubt I will ever totally go off but I keep reducing slowly but surely. Just got a new energy efficient freezer as I freeze lots of my crops and need a full freezer. I also make these deliscious kale patties to freeze and even my own raviolis (vegan with danadelion greens and wine). If you have any tips that you feel like posting I\'d be thrilled to read them. I am not just aiming for off grid but off any utility that I can. \n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:eanhubvc]\nIm going to try to start a thred on what we talking about in open forum.There mite be folks out there doing what we doing.Mite learn somthing.','',0,'gA==','eanhubvc',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9924,1252,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1150809110,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','snide remarks','Applesavior and others from the PLF have been asked to read the forum guidelines before they are reactivated in the forum. This isn\'t difficult, as many of you know because you\'ve been &quot;deactivated&quot; and &quot;reactivated&quot;.\n\nComments that we prohibit free speech on any grounds other than not following the guidelines show us that you have not read the guidelines.\n\nQED.','',0,'gA==','3bbu9t03',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9932,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1150831100,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter : hey i totally agree with you, i think a life is for a life whatever. Apart from when nature intended.\n\nThat dude should have got the death penalty and died the way that poor cat died.\n\ntc','',0,'gA==','3s1ftl7a',1,0,'',836,0,0),(9934,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150832924,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','To him his cars finish was more important then the cats life.Folks dont make no sense.','',0,'gA==','2a4s8bnk',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9942,1252,22,858,0,'67.160.203.238',1150858529,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Roome for Both?','I am a passionate beliver in both the rights of plants and the rights of animals.  It seems to me that in the socially and environmentally aware movements there should be room for both views.  The goal to me is a healthy diet and to live in a manner that minimizes impact on the world we live in.  Those that feel the way we do are a minority of the people on the planet, and to quote that unfortunate American, Rodney King; &quot;Can\'t we all just get along?&quot;.\nBest regards, Danny Mac','',0,'gA==','rrfyi3lv',1,0,'',858,0,0),(9944,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1150859344,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','I will say nothing bad about your mother!','I\'ve read your forum posts for awhile but have never posted before.  I am a PLF member, although not as strident as some of our other members.  I think I respect both my PLF views and most of the ALF ones too.  As has been voiced already; it\'s not about being perfect but doing the best you can and trying to do the right thing.  My main reason for writing is what I saw on the TV show &quot;60 Minutes&quot; this past Sunday.  They pretty much painted the ALF with the terrorist &amp; extremist organization brush, with someone from the FBI claiming the ALF is more dangerous than neo-nazi groups. I think that\'s absurd, but just to make me feel better please confirm that the ALF in no way condones or supports distructive acts against persons or property because the PLF most certainly does not.','',0,'gA==','1jlammmn',1,0,'',856,0,0),(9947,1252,22,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1150885077,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','fred schultz,if humans was in a building being used and abused for some benefit of a company or single person. And some folks broke in saved the people but knu the abuse wouldnt stop as long as the building was there.Would property damage be ok?','',0,'gA==','34cmkow2',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9950,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1150894178,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Nah some people are just ignorant, and obviously dnt care about nething but themselves (or their material belongings) ! i pity them to be honest with you, they must lead some very sad little lives.','',0,'gA==','2fx7sst7',1,0,'',836,0,0),(9951,1252,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1150896045,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','correct','ALF places more value on lives than on property. Of course it\'s not that simple. For a detailed answer please read this article, particularly the second half of it:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Authors/Novels/SpeciesismReview.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Sa ... Review.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','3qwwki54',1,0,'',2,0,0),(9966,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151022737,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Crumbs I totally agree with that statement. SO SO SO MANY meat eaters are so shallow and pathetic its like you challenge their little world and they call you wierd cause they can\'t understand a different view or have a reasonable discussion based on facts. I was recently asked &quot;what right do I have to judge meat eaters and say things like I don\' want to date or be close friends with them?&quot; I answered &quot;I defend the rights of the animals not ot be eaten and I also defend the rights of children not to starve to death because it takes more land to feed a meat eater than a vegetarian. (shwed proof online to this person&quot; he walked away and said &quot;Oh thats so stupid&quot; that was his comeback to facts namecalling. AFter I was done laughing I felt bad for him.\n\nVeganAngel_RI\n\nPS. Kriter will answer in other forum later tonight.','',0,'gA==','3vqgkleb',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9967,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1151026150,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:4ctqgh40]fred schultz,if humans was in a building being used and abused for some benefit of a company or single person. And some folks broke in saved the people but knu the abuse wouldnt stop as long as the building was there.Would property damage be ok?[/quote:4ctqgh40]\n\nMy belief is that direct action is never excusable.  Rationalize direct action as it applies to your own beliefs all you want, but everyone has to dertermine their own ethical boundaries.  My ethical boundaries say no direct action.  Also in your example if you burn down an insured building, it will more than likely be rebuilt.  So in damaging the building you have only damaged your groups reputation, you will have accomplished nothing in the long run.  Long term changes come only through changing societal values.','',0,'gA==','4ctqgh40',1,0,'',856,0,0),(9970,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1151057339,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','some people just cant accept that its wrong to hurt animals and i really do pity them. I cant understand how they think its right to slaughter something for your dinner plate, it not even as though they need to eat it, its just for pure greed. \n\nAlso, and i no this is off subject, i had a joined a board the other day which had someone asking if it was right that donkey\'s were used for entertainment. Some people answered that it was okay becasuse they were treated right and it was tradition. I polietly pointed out that if he thought it was right why was he asking about it? and also the slave trade was a tradition but did/does that make that right? i haven\'t checked for replies yet lol\n\nYou want to know where this board was? Peta2, need i say anymore?\n\ntc','',0,'gA==','2hx86ydx',1,0,'',836,0,0),(9971,1252,22,626,0,'82.44.45.26',1151060143,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Back for abit to question the rubbish from these PLF members, if it is a real group that is.\n\nA) none of you PLF members have answered my previous question, look back abit and youll see it.\nB) you PLF members speculative, and then argue your speculations but dont provide any evidence.\nC) if you respect plant rights then why continue to consume meat, as that uses a hell of alot more plants than a vegan diet does.\n\nAnswer them if you can.\n\nNow for DA.\n\nDA is vital to AR.  Burning buildings is not terrorism by anyones definitioin, terrorism is intentionally harming others , which a building isnt.\n\nDA also covers protests, so fred do you not believe in protests then?\n\nWhen you burn down an insured building that is even better!!  Insurence goes up, and insurers are driven away, look at the fur farm burning in Italy recently.  The ALF does not need to burn buildings to damage its reputation, the media can do that perfectly fine witout any such forms DA.\n\nBTW what have te PLF ever done for plant rights?  (except for their site).  I think its a joke, and a pretty stupid one at that.','',0,'gA==','k1o09n51',1,0,'',626,0,0),(9972,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151063783,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Im in a discussion on the WAR site with a ole boy about hunting.He thinks its the natural thing to do.Hes somkind of vet,helps animals but stills hunt them.I aint fussing at him,but trying to tell him just cuz hawks,snakes and other critters kill for food we dont  hav to.Hes been asking about fat and protein.Iv never giv it much thought.Reckon I must be geting everything I need.\nI agree with what you say about donkeys Crumbs.It aint rite to use animals for entertainment nomore then its rite to use folks as slaves.','',0,'gA==','3ramke1s',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9977,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151071041,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','True enough people are stupid, and if whoever wrote that question read a few pages of PETA\'s website he would have had his answer. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2mfxhsg1',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9978,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151071438,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Ok this might be a stupid question but there is a basis for it.\n\nJain\'s (religious group form of Hinduism) believe in doing no harm to even insects and wear facial mask and sweep before they step so as not to harm microscopic life. Do PLF members allow themselves to live in houses trees are plants which are cut down thus interfering with natural life span? \n\nAlso do you believe in eatting fruit and seeds some people view these as plants babies?\n\nOne more question if you use electricity more than likely trees were cut down somewhere to provide it or do you use solar power?\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1j0tlcts',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9979,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151072410,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter,\n\nSorry I didn\'t answer you sooner. I am looking into water purification now. Thinking if I can pull from my well and purify that water to drink and cook with right now I just use it for the garden. I will probably still get a water purifier and purify my tap water if all else fails that way I can eliminate by bottled spring water (about $1 a gallon in my parts). I only use about 5 gallons drinking water a week but I could purify my animals water this way it has always bothered me that I give them sink water. Granted its clean but there is chlorine in it. \n\nI am taking the liberty of reposting a couple of live simple sites for those who don\'t want to search through other posts who may join later.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.lehmans.com/\">http://www.lehmans.com/</a><!-- m -->\n\ngeneral non electric living\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.sunoven.com/usa.asp\">http://www.sunoven.com/usa.asp</a><!-- m -->\n\nsun oven\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.solarranch.com/index.html\">http://www.solarranch.com/index.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nother solar advice\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.etoncorp.com/\">http://www.etoncorp.com/</a><!-- m -->\n\nthis is the front page of a site that sell solar powered radios you have to click on your section of the world and navigate around to find them but they are there.\n\nKriter I know you mentioned A company similiar to Lehmans called Cumberland but I could not find them online maybe you could post a link  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nWhen I find out better info on the water purification system I will let you all know.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3bgwi2zy',1,0,'',372,0,0),(9981,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151075218,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hey VeganAngel       I looked for the Cumberland site and couldnt find it either.I think I hav a catalog at home.Ill get the full name off it.I wont be round a computer till Tuesday.\n \nChek this out if you get some time.Its a forum I go to and somtimes theres interesting information.\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.simpleliving.net\">www.simpleliving.net</a><!-- w -->\n\nThis here is a company that sells solar panel kits.I got my system from them.They a real helpful outfit, sure enuff.\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.newenglandsolar.com\">www.newenglandsolar.com</a><!-- w -->\n\nWe finally spose to get some rain this weekend.I hear we mite be under a flash flood warning.Just hope I get home and across the creek befor whatever storm we fixing to get.','',0,'gA==','33ns5f6r',1,0,'',454,0,0),(9996,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1151108603,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Let those who live in earth houses.....','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:1woej04x]Ok this might be a stupid question but there is a basis for it.\n\nJain\'s (religious group form of Hinduism) believe in doing no harm to even insects and wear facial mask and sweep before they step so as not to harm microscopic life. Do PLF members allow themselves to live in houses trees are plants which are cut down thus interfering with natural life span? \n\nAlso do you believe in eatting fruit and seeds some people view these as plants babies?\n\nOne more question if you use electricity more than likely trees were cut down somewhere to provide it or do you use solar power?\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:1woej04x]\n\nWell one at a time:\n1) The ideal in housing is to live in an earth or adobe walled house.  This is not at all far fetched as many have been built, especially in the American southwest.  The  earth or adobe walls make a great natural insulator.  My house is unfortunately made of  wood, which I certianly am not all that happy about.  In a modern world to live an entirly uncompromised life is  very difficult.  Do you use any animal products in any form in your life?  Do you wear leather shoes?\n2) Although there are some PLF members who are against even being a fruitarian, I do not share that belief.  I do think by eating fruit I\'m having a limiting effect on the natural spread of the plant, but the frruit is something that will fall off the plant and die anyway.  I am not killing the plant by eating the fruit.\n3) I don\'t know what source you all in Rhode Island are using for power, but here in CA we use electricity generated by hyro-electric plants and dams in the mountains.','',0,'gA==','1woej04x',1,0,'',856,0,0),(9997,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1151109376,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Rubbish?','[quote=&quot;sarah123&quot;:2on3jmr1]Back for abit to question the rubbish from these PLF members, if it is a real group that is.\n\nA) none of you PLF members have answered my previous question, look back abit and youll see it.\nB) you PLF members speculative, and then argue your speculations but dont provide any evidence.\nC) if you respect plant rights then why continue to consume meat, as that uses a hell of alot more plants than a vegan diet does.\n\nAnswer them if you can.\n\nNow for DA.\n\nDA is vital to AR.  Burning buildings is not terrorism by anyones definitioin, terrorism is intentionally harming others , which a building isnt.\n\nDA also covers protests, so fred do you not believe in protests then?\n\nWhen you burn down an insured building that is even better!!  Insurence goes up, and insurers are driven away, look at the fur farm burning in Italy recently.  The ALF does not need to burn buildings to damage its reputation, the media can do that perfectly fine witout any such forms DA.\n\nBTW what have te PLF ever done for plant rights?  (except for their site).  I think its a joke, and a pretty stupid one at that.[/quote:2on3jmr1]\n\nToo much for me to answer in one posting so I\'ll pick 2 items.\n1) I disagree with some of the ALF beliefs, but I don\'t call them rubbish and I don\'t call you stupid.  In fact dispite some claims to the contrary, my perception is that PLF memebers have been &quot;removed&quot; for less.\n2)  DA is not vital to AR or any other non-terrorist organization.  In the larger picture is not your goal to change how peolple think of and treat animals?  Do you think when people see or read about an arson attack on an animal research center that your agenda is advanced?  Sure the ALF is in the short term news, But you have changed no ones beliefs or values.  Take a lesson from Ghandi who achieved Ibdian independence through non-violent means.  Protests are not in my opinion DA, unless they are unlawful and involve anarchists.  In that case see my point a couple sentences earlier.  \nfred[/u]','',0,'gA==','2on3jmr1',1,0,'',856,0,0),(9998,1252,22,643,0,'72.240.14.57',1151113296,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','def of terrorism','The American Heritage Dictionary defines terrorism as &quot;The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against [b:f3va1i1z]people or property [/b:f3va1i1z]with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.&quot;','',0,'QA==','f3va1i1z',1,0,'',643,0,0),(9999,1252,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1151113522,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:3hwdekh0]1) I disagree with some of the ALF beliefs, but I don\'t call them rubbish and I don\'t call you stupid. [/quote:3hwdekh0]\n\nName calling is grounds from being deactivated. The choice on this board is to ignore posts are present a logic argument.\n\n[quote:3hwdekh0]In fact dispite some claims to the contrary, my perception is that PLF memebers have been &quot;removed&quot; for less.[/quote:3hwdekh0] \n\nThey were deactivated until they agreed to follow the forum guidelines. Since they could easily join under another user name I assume they are either here and following the guidelines or they have no interest in following the guidelines.\n\n[quote:3hwdekh0]2) DA is not vital to AR or any other non-terrorist organization. In the larger picture is not your goal to change how peolple think of and treat animals? Do you think when people see or read about an arson attack on an animal research center that your agenda is advanced? Sure the ALF is in the short term news, But you have changed no ones beliefs or values. Take a lesson from Ghandi who achieved Ibdian independence through non-violent means. Protests are not in my opinion DA, unless they are unlawful and involve anarchists. In that case see my point a couple sentences earlier. [/quote:3hwdekh0]\n\nDid you read the Steven Best article that I linked to? If you did, please respond critically to his points. One of the forum guidelines is that we frown on repeating the same answers, which means we frown on posters asking the same things that have been answered. As I said above, your choice on this board is to ignore or debate, not name call or repeat.','',0,'gA==','3hwdekh0',1,0,'',2,0,0),(10000,1186,16,369,0,'70.108.73.81',1151119138,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;tyran the tyrant&quot;:11j3aesn]it\'s animal food it [b:11j3aesn]HAS[/b:11j3aesn] to be tested on animals[/quote:11j3aesn]\n\nIt has too??? Many brands of &quot;pet&quot; food do  [b:11j3aesn]not[/b:11j3aesn] test on animals, so its extremely ignorant  and uniformed to say what you just said.','',0,'wA==','11j3aesn',1,0,'',369,0,0),(10001,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1151119305,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Steve Best, Anne B, etc.','Anne,\nYes I have read Syeve Best\'s artcle and as you can imagine I disagree.  Just so we\'re clear I\'ve insulted no one here, not do I intend to.   Mr. Best makes the point that the in his view the accomplisments of King and Ghandi have been romanticized over time and would somehow not be effective in the case of AR.  He give this subject short shift and glosses over it.  As a citizen of the UK, you should be well aware of the the story of Ghandi and Indian independence.  It\'s not like the British were wanting to give up India, the &quot;crown jewel&quot; of the empire.  Yet through non-violent civil disobediance the goal of Indian independence was achieved.  \n\nIn more pratical terms vegetarians are a small percentage of the US and UK population and hard core AR group form but a percentage of an already small percentage.  Wars, either conventianal or non-conventional have succeeded beause the majority of the population agreed with the issues involved.\n\nHard core ARA\'s will only be a fringe group of extemists if they continue with DA as a means to advance their cause.  I won\'t belabour the points I\'ve already made.  Changes come from changing the way more of any given society thinks and acts.  DA will not accomplish those changes.','',0,'wA==','3v50z21c',1,0,'',856,0,0),(10002,1252,22,369,0,'70.108.73.81',1151120001,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Steve Best, Anne B, etc.','[quote=&quot;fred schultz&quot;:32k5hozl]Anne,\nYes I have read Syeve Best\'s artcle and as you can imagine I disagree.  Just so we\'re clear I\'ve insulted no one here, not do I intend to.   Mr. Best makes the point that the in his view the accomplisments of King and Ghandi have been romanticized over time and would somehow not be effective in the case of AR.  He give this subject short shift and glosses over it.  As a citizen of the UK, you should be well aware of the the story of Ghandi and Indian independence.  It\'s not like the British were wanting to give up India, the &quot;crown jewel&quot; of the empire.  Yet through non-violent civil disobediance the goal of Indian independence was achieved.  \n\nIn more pratical terms vegetarians are a small percentage of the US and UK population and hard core AR group form but a percentage of an already small percentage.  Wars, either conventianal or non-conventional have succeeded beause the majority of the population agreed with the issues involved.\n\nHard core ARA\'s will only be a fringe group of extemists if they continue with DA as a means to advance their cause.  I won\'t belabour the points I\'ve already made.  Changes come from changing the way more of any given society thinks and acts.  DA will not accomplish those changes.[/quote:32k5hozl]\n\nDirect action will not act as a solution solely, that is why I believe education along side direct action is very important. Open liberations to free the animals while humans argue helps in the most [i:32k5hozl]direct[/i:32k5hozl] form, and destroying property will hinder  the corporations that exploit animals, and the videos and evidence taken from the lab, fur farm etc. is a key to educating the public, therefore both act together and both are important.','',0,'oA==','32k5hozl',1,0,'',369,0,0),(10004,392,19,510,0,'69.149.169.68',1151122275,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Does anyone know a good exorcist?','',0,'oA==','1qls3mvd',1,0,'',510,0,0),(10006,936,3,554,0,'24.200.249.151',1151123168,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Tyran, can you explain to me in logical terms why OUR species is more important?','',0,'oA==','2io8vcoi',1,0,'',554,0,0),(10008,1186,16,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1151125182,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','my recommendation','You probably want to ignore tyrant. Based on his questions he hasn\'t read much about animal rights. He is probably referring to the fact that dog food is tested on animals when it is fed to them.\n\nTechnically, he\'s correct. Dog food has to be tested on dogs.\n\nI\'m giving him the benefit of the doubt. He may just be trying to be irritating. It\'s one of those two.','',0,'oA==','12yzo52u',1,0,'',2,0,0),(10011,392,19,554,0,'24.200.249.151',1151126284,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Ray P.&quot;:2ny9eimi]Does anyone know a good exorcist?[/quote:2ny9eimi]\n\nHA HA HA! Ok, that was good !','',0,'gA==','2ny9eimi',1,0,'',554,0,0),(10012,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151126371,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Do you use any animal products in any form in your life? \n\nYes I own a car second hand but it has leather.\n\n\nDo you wear leather shoes? \n\nNo leather (other than car). No silk. No animal tested products.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3han7cfc',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10017,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1151149250,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','VeganAngel: i know i suppose i should point that out to them but then again what are they joining peta for if they think its right to exploit animals in the entertainment industry just beacuse its tradition.  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> \n\ntc','',0,'gA==','1xj59qtb',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10018,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1151149827,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','tyran the tyrant:\n\nErm excuse me? What the hell does speciesism have to do with this? What does it matter that we are a different species from animals? at the end of the day a life is being taken are harmed and i\'ll defend whatever life that is !!\n\nTo say that \'because they are ****ing up our species makes them much more deserving\' is absolute crap. We should protect and look after all species not just the human one and if that is the way you think why are you on a animal rights forum? \n\nYes i do agree with you that there are many deserving people of the death sentence, i have said that before. But a life is for a life no matter what anybody says, im sorry but my views will not change on that.','',0,'gA==','3igwsq98',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10023,936,3,105,0,'62.254.0.56',1151172802,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','their is no difference between killing an animal and killing a human they both feel the same pain, killing is killing.','',0,'gA==','1itn35fh',1,0,'',105,0,0),(10025,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1151179781,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','grahamglen: Thank You ! that was the point i was and still am trying to get across to tyran !!\n\ntc','',0,'gA==','9dzfg8d6',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10028,1252,22,856,0,'204.108.0.10',1151189731,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Leather Seats','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;]Do you use any animal products in any form in your life? \n\nYes I own a car second hand but it has leather.\n\n\nSo how do you resolve having leather seats with your beliefs?','',0,'','1ef024m2',1,0,'',856,0,0),(10029,1252,22,856,0,'204.108.0.10',1151189938,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','DA Question','Direct action will not act as a solution solely, that is why I believe education along side direct action is very important. Open liberations to free the animals while humans argue helps in the most [i:214tykia]direct[/i:214tykia] form, and destroying property will hinder  the corporations that exploit animals, and the videos and evidence taken from the lab, fur farm etc. is a key to educating the public, therefore both act together and both are important.[/quote]\n\nHas DA helped ALF to date?  I don\'t mean short term, has it advanced the ALF agenda in the long term?','',0,'IA==','214tykia',1,0,'',856,0,0),(10031,1252,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1151194138,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Yes','[quote:1ylrpif0]Has DA helped ALF to date? I don\'t mean short term, has it advanced the ALF agenda in the long term?[/quote:1ylrpif0]\n\nMost ALF actions are the liberation of animals that an ALF member sees being abused daily, and there is no fanfare. Sorry if that doesn\'t fit the media\'s description. The only goal of this is short term -- save the animal.\n\nIt is impossible to determine long range cause and effect with so many variables. Worldwide, animal rights are being recoginized by more countries at the fastest rate in history. If you were following the news you would read daily about laws and companies changing to protect animals. The main reason is awareness, which comes mostly from what people see on their televison. PETA is fairly consequential in this regard.\n\nThe ALF is fairly inconsequential in the long term gains, particularly since most ALF actions fall well under the radar by design.','',0,'gA==','1ylrpif0',1,0,'',2,0,0),(10032,1252,22,856,0,'204.108.0.10',1151200688,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: Yes','[quote=&quot;AnnB&quot;:6wii5tex][quote:6wii5tex]Has DA helped ALF to date? I don\'t mean short term, has it advanced the ALF agenda in the long term?[/quote:6wii5tex]\n\nThe ALF is fairly inconsequential in the long term gains, particularly since most ALF actions fall well under the radar by design.[/quote:6wii5tex]\n\nDo long term goals not matter?  What do a few animal &quot;rescues&quot; accomplish, aside from freeing those specific animals?  What do you want the future to look like for animals?','',0,'gA==','6wii5tex',1,0,'',856,0,0),(10034,1186,16,737,0,'83.67.139.76',1151234853,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Oh it\'s that one again!  I thought his comment about fur on ebay was a bit odd too but didn\'t cotton on that he is just one of those wind up merchants. Yawn  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->','',0,'gA==','10bduqv9',1,0,'',737,0,0),(10050,936,3,369,0,'70.108.84.5',1151290813,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Tyran the Tyrant&quot;:2o96xkej]because the life of a human has more value than that of an animal [/quote:2o96xkej]\n\n\nWhen all creatures, humans included, are capable of suffering and have the ability to feel emotions however advanced or basic, then I  fail to see what makes humans more important then every other lifeform.','',0,'gA==','2o96xkej',1,0,'',369,0,0),(10051,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151291389,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hey Kriter,\n\nLittle sidenote a woman from solar ranch contacted my mom tonight looking for me as I had left her a question as my solar oven got sprayed by a cat and wanted to ask how to sterilize it. Anyway my mom told her we are vegan and told her some of the dishes we cooked in it and she is interested in trying some!!!!!!!!!! Too cool!\n\nI have briefly checked out both sites but not thoroughly as I\'ve been busy trying to catch that abandoned parakeet.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','hhit9vna',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10053,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151293298,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I justify it by reasonability and it is second hand if I could afford a first hand car I would not get leather seats.\n\nJust curious what do you think of weeding?\n\nI run a wildlife habitat and have some endangered plants on it to make them survive I weed around them killing grass and whatnot. Does an average PLFer approve of weeding?\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2rg4m58n',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10059,1282,33,488,0,'205.188.116.138',1151307177,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I till try to live as much as possible off the farm- I heat and cook with wood, I use candles and minimal electricity in the house. There are wells on my land that water the livestock and the house. I have my own lumber sawn from logs here on the farm. -slabs go to firewood and sawdust is bedding in the barn.  I have a garden and will try to can this fall for the first time. ( usally the ex\'s job)   I know im not as off grid as some - but these few things save a lot of money.','',0,'gA==','3067dc40',1,0,'',488,0,0),(10061,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151323520,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That\'s awesome Midnight if you need advice on canning ask. I do my own and have recipies for some other veggies I do not preserve and would be happy to pass them on to you. Hope all is well with you.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3rtkpy3x',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10065,1186,16,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1151329921,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I did a walk to benefit the Humane Society and they handed out free samples of iams.  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->','',0,'gA==','bu0bb7r7',1,0,'',444,0,0),(10075,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1151342517,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:3vzefgj0]I justify it by reasonability and it is second hand if I could afford a first hand car I would not get leather seats.\n\nJust curious what do you think of weeding?\n\nI run a wildlife habitat and have some endangered plants on it to make them survive I weed around them killing grass and whatnot. Does an average PLFer approve of weeding?\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:3vzefgj0]\n\nAre the &quot;weeds&quot; native or non-native plant species?  If they are a non-native plant species I support botanical culling (reluctantly) as a necessary evil for the greater botanical good.','',0,'gA==','3vzefgj0',1,0,'',856,0,0),(10087,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151407953,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hey VeganAngel,its rite cool that lady wanting to try cooking vegan stuff.\nIm fixing to get into the canning myself for the first time too.Sombody use to do that for me along time ago.Needing jars,lids,gaskets for the lids.Im going to do it on a outside stove Im making out of cinder bloks.I hav a big pot.\nI think the canning will take care of vittals for the winter with nothing coming from the grocery store.Want to figure out making dog and cat food.\nWent to a annual activist gathering over the weekend.There was folks who was talking about living off the land,out of dumpsters and eating road kill and dead critters other critters killed.\nI usally mov roadkill off the road,bury anything I find dead in the woods,got alot of stuff from dumsters ,mostly building material,never got nothing out of them to eat.','',0,'gA==','3ljavoe1',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10090,1282,33,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1151427240,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','cough cough...gag gag...eat roadkill???  Oh yummy, hold me back on that one!!\n\nI am seriously choking on my oatmeal right now.','',0,'gA==','10g3qdsr',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10093,936,3,871,0,'72.31.11.162',1151433955,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I do not understand how you can support a death sentance for a killer of animals and be a spokesperson for the valuable life of animals.  I do not support the death penalty period; and, believe me, it is NOT because I do not think there are people who deserve to die.  When I hear of children being murdered or see videos of animals being tortured I feel so violent it scares me.  But, that does not mean the law should condone a murder for a murder.  Animal, human, or otherwise.','',0,'gA==','3ng444hf',1,0,'',871,0,0),(10095,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151435760,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I couldnt eat animals any kind of way myself road kill or killed by other critters..But the point these folks had was they dont kill animals.What they eat is alredy dead and they had nothing to do with it.','',0,'gA==','vvcx1nai',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10097,1282,33,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1151440375,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Good god...why would someone want to eat roadkill though?  Sure, the poor animal is already dead and they didnt have anything to do with their suffering or dying, but still...to eat something that has been baking on the hot pavement for a day doesnt really do much for me!    \n\nI say leave the dead animal for the other live animals who will feed off of their dead bodies.  They need to eat too.','',0,'gA==','1bst50b3',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10098,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151440599,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Iv scraped dead critters off the road thinking other animals would come in the road to sniff or eat it  and get run over themselfs.Maybe these folks Im talking about sit beside the road and wait for fresh road kill.','',0,'gA==','3b9seee8',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10100,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1151461175,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Same question reversed','[quote=&quot;fred schultz&quot;:1itnvnqz][quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:1itnvnqz]I justify it by reasonability and it is second hand if I could afford a first hand car I would not get leather seats.\n\nJust curious what do you think of weeding?\n\nI run a wildlife habitat and have some endangered plants on it to make them survive I weed around them killing grass and whatnot. Does an average PLFer approve of weeding?\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:1itnvnqz][/quote:1itnvnqz]\n\nSo how about the same question for you, only involving animals instead of plants.  Assume that you have a native species of bird being threatened by an introduced species of predator, sloats or ferritts...something like that.  Would you support trapping and killing the non-native predator to protect the native species?','',0,'gA==','1itnvnqz',1,0,'',856,0,0),(10102,1282,33,19,0,'71.201.153.152',1151466766,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I knew a man whose idea of hunting was to run over animals with his car.  He also brought home road kill all the time.  \n\nI personally wil get everything I can for free.  That is how I get all my furniture.  It pisses my husband off,until I come out with cool things lol,   but I dumpster dive any chance I get.\nI just can\'t see paying for something I can get for free.  \n\nI never scrounge food though.  But I do give it away for free.','',0,'gA==','1a4a88iw',1,0,'',19,0,0),(10103,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151470195,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Avtually I am working on trapping a non native animal right now that someone released, but because I consider an animal life worthy of consideration I will give it a captive life best possible under the circumstances. Yes it would be wonderful if I had the money to rerelease it in native land but that is next to impossible for me so I will care for the animal which commited no harm unlike the animals previous owner. I would not however transplant a weed (unless it was a dandelion but the reason would offend you.)\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','32eqqdcq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10109,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151493391,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I got a mess of nice 1x2s of diferent lengths out the trash compacter just in time.They had nails and stables in them but I cleaned them up and using them on the cat house Im building for the cats that live with me.Iv found sneekers,clothes and a nice wood handle hammer.The head was rusty but I cleaned it off and got it so shiny I hate to mess it up using it.\nI got 3 bags of free mulch from the hardware store.The store dude said nobody would buy them cuz the bags was broke.I dont like having plastic bags but Ill use them till theres nothing left of them.Couldnt let that mulch get wasted,Im a gardener.\nThere was some mobile classrooms being moved.They are double wide trailers.They support the middle with long 2x4s.After the trailer is put back together they thro the 2x4s away.They brand spanking new.I used them to build my generator shed.Its hard to beleev how much is wasted.We waste somuch,I wonder why we need so much.','',0,'gA==','1oiqz4yc',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10116,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.70',1151523999,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;tyran the tyrant&quot;:1ecz047i]sorry for posting twice I forgot I posted here\n\n[quote=&quot;Marie&quot;:1ecz047i]Tyran, can you explain to me in logical terms why OUR species is more important?[/quote:1ecz047i]\n\nbecause the life of a human has more value than that of an animal\n[/quote:1ecz047i]Thats just your opinion Tyran and a speciesist one at that. You still haven\'t offered any logical reasons to back up your statement.','',0,'gA==','1ecz047i',1,0,'',309,0,0),(10118,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151525044,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Tyran why does the life of people have more value then animals?','',0,'gA==','3sb5kd16',1,1151593294,'',454,1,0),(10120,1282,33,19,0,'71.201.153.152',1151530600,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I take clothes (even if they do not fit) as long as I like the fabric.  Then I make new clothes out of them.  I love it!\n\nSometimes here I find neat things on the side of the road.  Recently, I got a grass seeder (handle was a tad rusty) and a lego table (that is sooo cool).  Twice a year a town close by has \'clean up\' where you can set anything you want out for the local trash pick up and they will take it away no charge.  Those are my two favorite weeks of the year!  I load up on sofas and chairs.  I have got a wicked bed frame, all kinds of planters, baby toys, clothes, biulding supplies, tools, toys, powerwheels, tables (all kinds of furniture actually), art supplies, books, plants, etc.  Seriously, that is my xmas <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nI do hit dumpsters if I notice something I like inside.  I always look.  \n\nIt is incredible the way people waste.  Our landfills are filling up at lightning speed, gee I wonder why?','',0,'gA==','2l4ciugo',1,0,'',19,0,0),(10123,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151553301,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','America is a throw away society items (particularly electronics) are designed to break. The more stuff breaks the more money is spent, the more money spent, the more money lines the fat asses pockets.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','24p6tett',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10128,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151576112,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','VeganAngel   I was looking at presure cookers at Lehmans.A lady there told me I cant put their presure cookers on open fire.Do I got to hav a presure cooker to can?Can I just use a big pot of water on a open fire so I dont need electricity?Caning aint new.Im sure it was being done befor electricity.','',0,'gA==','28n20fgq',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10130,936,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1151589490,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If you cant offer any reasons to back up your insane ideas, then why bother being on this forum?  You are wasting so many people\'s time here with your usual pro-animal-exploiting speciesist BS.','',0,'gA==','2jkt97hj',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10139,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151599242,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;rtivy8&quot;:24ykhug9][quote=&quot;animalover&quot;:24ykhug9]If you cant offer any reasons to back up your insane ideas, then why bother being on this forum?  You are wasting so many people\'s time here with your usual pro-animal-exploiting speciesist BS.[/quote:24ykhug9]\n\nhow are his ideas insane? the way I see it a human can do more for the world than an animal but thats just how I see things[/quote:24ykhug9]\n\n\n\nWhat do you see humans doing for the world?\nIm not atacking you, just curius.','',0,'gA==','24ykhug9',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10143,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151600416,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','We are the ones making pollution and other stuff.If we didnt pollute we wouldnt have to fix it.\nWhat problem can we fix that we didnt create in the first place?','',0,'gA==','2zk1ndc0',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10145,936,3,369,0,'70.108.84.209',1151600811,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:1gnq1kwq]We are the ones making pollution and other stuff.If we didnt pollute we wouldnt have to fix it.\nWhat problem can we fix that we didnt create in the first place?[/quote:1gnq1kwq]\n\nExactly.','',0,'gA==','1gnq1kwq',1,0,'',369,0,0),(10146,936,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1151601401,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','rtivy...all the problems this world faces is because of humans and humans only.  Humans are the most self-destructing species on this planet.  Everything we do is for profit, no matter what we have to destroy, maim or kill to get it.   \n\nWhat Kriter said is soooo true.','',0,'gA==','uiyp507v',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10151,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1151610164,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Im not saying &quot;dont&quot; fix it.You said that people do more good in the world then animals.All Im saying is&quot;no we dont&quot;.But we the ones that can fix what wev done if its fixable.I heard on the news Earth is warming up cuz of what we do and its to late to reverse it.But that dont mean give up,maybe they rong maybe they aint.We responsible for it we shudnt stop trying to fix it and everything els we done.\nIts a good thing critters aint as smart as us,sure enuff.','',0,'gA==','3tny3lfk',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10153,936,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1151615105,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:25ntfwx5]  Its a good thing critters aint as smart as us,sure enuff.[/quote:25ntfwx5]\n\nToo bad animals dont share the exact same intellectual capacity that humans do...then they can experiment and slice and dice on Brian Cass for a change and dissect his brain...oh wait a minute, he doesnt have one.  Silly me.  I hate that fu*ker with a passion.','',0,'gA==','25ntfwx5',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10154,1252,22,856,0,'67.160.203.238',1151622225,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Dandelion Tea?','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:kitck5hz]Avtually I am working on trapping a non native animal right now that someone released, but because I consider an animal life worthy of consideration I will give it a captive life best possible under the circumstances. Yes it would be wonderful if I had the money to rerelease it in native land but that is next to impossible for me so I will care for the animal which commited no harm unlike the animals previous owner. I would not however transplant a weed (unless it was a dandelion but the reason would offend you.)\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:kitck5hz]\nIf you took a beautiful Dandelion and boiled it alive to make tea for your enjoyment, than you are the barbarian not I.  You\'re right I am hugely offended.\nfred','',0,'gA==','kitck5hz',1,0,'',856,0,0),(10161,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151636929,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Actually the Earth can repair itself slowly. If there was mass extinction of the human race all things would eventually decay even the toxic ones. The earth and the animals would eventually become as if it was an untamed jungle. Even concrete sidewalks cannot stop weeds and grass forever. Eventually you get cracks and the grass comes through.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','19fpti2j',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10163,844,5,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151637485,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Fine I will agree to that as soon as you bend over let me electrocute you in your asshole and give me your flesh.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','xo0lwinz',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10167,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151639551,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thats ok that you are offended. For the record I do not make tea. I made wine and raviolis.\n\nI am absolutely fascinated that someone as passionate as you missed this letter posted on another discussion under AR Philosophy.  \n\nCOPIED LETTER HERE\n\nOpen letter to any PLFers out there.... \n\n\nI checked out your site. \n\nI clicked on your useful links page. \n\nI skimmed some every site on there.... \n\n1) One article featured a click to another article on the site saying Peta disbanded..... beware of web sites that report jokes you may be reading one yourself. \n\n2) Several have no references or any way to contact the author, among educated people that is a no no. If you are going to say something you should be able to back it up. \n\n3) &quot;Others are quietly making funeral arrangements and the Environmental Protection Agency is considering declaring vegans an endangered species. &quot; This is a quote of one of your links. \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.department13d\">http://www.department13d</a><!-- m --> esigns.com/vegan.html \nTake out the big space if you want to visit it. All I can say is SHOW ME THE SCIENCE!!!! \n\nCOPIED LETTER ENDED\n\nIf you cannot answer these debate statements with something to refute me such as something on the actual EPA site you have proven to me that you are a person who believes in lies.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1uoxau0b',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10168,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1151644749,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have never used a pressure cooker to can nor have I ever had any problems. I use my gas stove though never done it outdoors. \n\nI use a set up similiar to the one pictured. I have not bought from this site I got my stuff second hand. I have no idea on prices or legitimacy of this company. \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.kitchenkrafts.com/produ\">http://www.kitchenkrafts.com/produ</a><!-- m -->                             ct.asp?pn=FP2004\n\nI sterilize all my jars and lids first then add the preserve, jelly or relish put the lids on and boil. When I take them out of the water I wait to hear the lids seal (can be tested by placing thumb in middle of lid and if pushes in with slight pressure it is not sealed properly it can be done twice if it does not take the first time but use jars that did not seal first time as they may be compromised according to what I have read). I would try sealing some water first to test how the jars seal it is a bit of a waste of lids but it may be better than wasting homemade relish. Metal rings can be used more then once but the inner lid only once.\n\nIf you have any other questions I will try to help feel free to ask.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','h06iavi4',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10171,936,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1151668798,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Tyran the tyrant:\n\nLook at the end of the day, a life is a life. No life should be taken but when it is the killer should have to pay the consequences, regardless of the species.\n\nAnd before you say something like an owl should be killed for killing the mouse its about to eat, no it shouldn\'t that is a completely different matter. That animal is killing for food, which it needs to eat not just killing for sport, which humans do in some cases.\n\nLife is a very precious thing and nobody should be able to take that away, and if they do they should be made to pay the consquence.','',0,'gA==','19ettvlq',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10205,1186,16,888,0,'72.145.153.102',1151920571,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ve been writing them letters urging them to stop testing on animals, but they have yet to send me a letter back of any kind. I never liked their dog food anyways for my animals. I also got a lot of my friends switching dog food too','',0,'gA==','25do20av',1,0,'',888,0,0),(10226,477,19,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1152019021,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I would never chain or confine an animal to a yard. As stated, dogs are very social and even with another dog as a companion they do not want to be chained or confined to a yard. Dogs are pack animals and consider the human a part of that pack. I\'ve never known a dog that didn\'t prefer to be inside; open the door and if the dogs want to come inside you will have your answer. I think it is cruel to deny a dog to be indoors, away from the family and left to the elements. I rescued a timber wolf years back and he wanted to be right by my side. We have a dog door and the timber wolf would go out for short periods of time and would always come back inside. He never once prefered to stay outside for a long time or sleep outside. This has been my experience with all of the many dogs I\'ve fostered. \n\nWhen I placed the timber wolf in a home, I chose a great guy who already had one timber wolf that he rescued from an abusive person. His timber wolf had always been kept indoors, preferred to be indoors and he had a dog door. His timber wolf had been neutered when he first rescued him which was one of the factors that helped me choose to adopt to him. Also, I carefully observed the relationship he had with his timber wolf. There were no signs of fear, abuse or neglect. He was very playful and outgoing and freely lounged on the sofa.  <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) --> \n\nI would never walk a dog without a lead, in most circumstances. A dog without a lead may run into the street or encounter other dangerous sitiuations. I would only use a harness; I would never use a collar of any sort on a dog. If I were a dog, I would prefer a harness because I would not want any force exerted on my neck.','',0,'gA==','1qelpkpa',1,1160077864,'',897,10,0),(10230,936,3,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1152022521,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:34y1ldcx]I dont feel its rong.Xecute the sumbitch[/quote:34y1ldcx]\n\n <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nSeriously though, I am opposed to the death penalty also. I do believe in life long incarceration for some crimes such as killing animals or humans. The person above was right on in mentioning intensive labor for horrible people. Killers should never be loosed to kill again.  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'gA==','34y1ldcx',1,0,'',897,0,0),(10254,936,3,638,0,'80.216.4.70',1152051736,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;animalover&quot;:2vk9gzsj][quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:2vk9gzsj]  Its a good thing critters aint as smart as us,sure enuff.[/quote:2vk9gzsj]\n\nToo bad animals dont share the exact same intellectual capacity that humans do...then they can experiment and slice and dice on Brian Cass for a change and dissect his brain...oh wait a minute, he doesnt have one.  Silly me.  I hate that fu*ker with a passion.[/quote:2vk9gzsj]\n\n\nThank you for that animalover, that is most certainly an interresting name to drop in this debate.\n As i stated earlier i am without any doubt in favor of the death penalty regarding the topic at hand, i am however curious regarding those of you that are oposed to it how you would react regarding such &quot;people&quot; as Brian Cass?(sorry if namedropping is not allowed but in this case i think its relevant) IF in an ideal world you had the power to end that f**ers life would you still grant him imprissonment or take that scum of the face of the earth once and for all?\nPlease dont be offended by my question, i am only curious...\nPersonally, i would experiment on him a couple of months while keeping him alive with lifesupport before putting him out (with a chainsaw)to make sure his final time on earth was non-stop in agony..sorry, but the hate i feel for that waste of human tissue scare me.. <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'gA==','2vk9gzsj',1,0,'',638,0,0),(10261,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1152094367,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thank you kindly VeganAngel.The way you can is the way I wanting to can but outside.just been hearing folks say &quot;you got to hav a presure cooker&quot;.','',0,'gA==','1yhwfcb9',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10262,936,3,309,0,'195.93.21.8',1152095828,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Daddy_baloo&quot;:kkxta32h]Personally, i would experiment on him a couple of months while keeping him alive with lifesupport before putting him out (with a chainsaw)to make sure his final time on earth was non-stop in agony..sorry, but the hate i feel for that waste of human tissue scare me.. <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->[/quote:kkxta32h]Sounds like a good idea to me.','',0,'gA==','kkxta32h',1,0,'',309,0,0),(10263,936,3,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1152097160,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:18e6mwxt]Personally, i would experiment on him a couple of months while keeping him alive with lifesupport before putting him out (with a chainsaw)to make sure his final time on earth was non-stop in agony..sorry, but the hate i feel for that waste of human tissue scare me.. [/quote:18e6mwxt]\n\nHe is a low life demon from the depths of satan\'s a**hole, I agree. He is Hitler reborn, I agree. He is every bad nightmare rolled into one, I agree. However, death is too good for him. What if he were chained to a roller coaster and forced to ride it day in and day out, stopping long enough to keep him alive for more non stop puking???? Ok, I like the idea above better too.','',0,'gA==','18e6mwxt',1,0,'',897,0,0),(10272,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1152103408,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Who is this Cass dude?','',0,'gA==','1cmk7v9g',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10273,936,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1152107333,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Big Wig at HLS\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2z7nq8du',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10275,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1152108022,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Maybe if you get a parabolic sun oven you could use a pressure cooker just an idea parabolics are solar but direct light toward bottom of pan so it may work unsure if it supports the weight though. Also Lehmans will give you advice if you call and talk to customer service. \n\n\nI am going to be building a different kind of solar oven myself basically very thin and flat with no reflectors. It is made for slow cooking fruits usually it takes about 4 days of sunlight to cook them. It is a very rich dessert that you make in it. There is a local group that teaches it. Of course the building of the oven I am on my own. I will check some sites listed by the solar ranch for advice. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3v2q9epf',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10276,936,3,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1152108651,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[/quote]Who is this Cass dude?[quote]\n\nhe\'s the monster under your bed........\n\nCass even made it in Wikipedia.......so did shac!\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingdon_Life_Sciences\">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingdon_Life_Sciences</a><!-- m -->\n\nhere\'s an article about him\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/07/27/nhls27.xml\">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... nhls27.xml</a><!-- m -->','',0,'','2pn6i9el',1,0,'',897,0,0),(10282,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1152115131,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thank you kindly yall.Hes a hateful bastard,sure enuff.','',0,'','14sndf84',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10304,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1152183876,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I do beleev Id rather not use a presure cooker atall.I meen presure cookers wert always around rite?Folks been caning a long time.Iv seen jars dated 1940.Wonder if there was presure cookers then.\nIm wanting to can mators,cukes,eggplant,squash,peppers,and maybe pumpkin and not hav to depend on electricity.Id like to get one of them solar ovens but cant do it this summer.I can get alittl bit of vegys in my frezer but not much.\nGot basil and dill drying,thats easy.','',0,'','1fsqb0pr',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10324,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1152241039,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I agree with you on not bothering with a pressure cooker never liked the idead of them myself. \n\nIn the old days the had cast iron stoves and used a big pan to boil the jars in. The problem with the set up I own and linked on here is those types of pans cannot take direct fire so you need some kind of cooker. \n\nThese links are from a new solar site I found and may offer some assistance the first is a brief about solar canning and the second is the home page of the same site.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://solarcooking.org/canning1.htm\">http://solarcooking.org/canning1.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://solarcooking.org/default.htm\">http://solarcooking.org/default.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nHope they help.\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','2yhcay6d',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10330,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1152267682,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thank you kindly VeganAngel','',0,'','37of1sxa',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10342,936,3,554,0,'66.130.197.125',1152323648,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I can only hope his karma kicks in quickly.','',0,'','1v8iywn5',1,0,'',554,0,0),(10351,1012,3,754,0,'65.93.36.221',1152327236,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','got a few from some anti AR groups.\n\nsome one said regarding hitler being vegetarian\n\n&quot;When someone says &quot;Hitler was vegetarian&quot; just respond with &quot;And Jack the Ripper ate meat. What\'s your point?&quot;&quot;\n\npersons response on PeTA-sucks.com\n\n&quot;The point is, Hitler was a real person and Jack the Ripper was a fictional character&quot;\n\nFrom a person who supports the CCF\n&quot;The facts are true. That is undeniable. Don\'t shoot the messanger.&quot;\n\nInteresting considering the founder of CCF says \n“Our offensive strategy is to shoot the messenger. Given the activists’ plans to alarm beyond all reason, we’ve got to attack their credibility as spokespersons.â€','',0,'','hp6mnc9x',1,0,'',754,0,0),(10352,1012,3,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1152329135,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','as always','You will go in circles unless you establish first that the person arguing actually wants to exchange ideas and not just give you an enless stream of their opinion.\n\nSecond, in most of the above examples, the rules of logic were not followed and there are &quot;logical fallacy&quot; names for each breach.\n\nFor esample, for CCF to state they are attacking the messenger is a logical fallacy known as an &quot;ad hominem&quot;\n\nDescription of Ad Hominem\nTranslated from Latin to English, &quot;Ad Hominem&quot; means &quot;against the man&quot; or &quot;against the person.&quot; \n\nAn Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of &quot;argument&quot; has the following form: \n\n\nPerson A makes claim X. \nPerson B makes an attack on person A. \nTherefore A\'s claim is false. \nThe reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).','',0,'','356w7opb',1,0,'',2,0,0),(10360,536,18,906,0,'139.133.7.37',1152380264,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sauerkraut is ever so good, is that not the same as Kim-Chi?\n\nI am trying to shift towards a fruitarian/raw diet. Slow progress, but I am moving in that direction.','',0,'','151dwt4w',1,0,'',906,0,0),(10364,1012,3,372,0,'68.9.116.125',1152416543,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Damn I hate my boss, he likes to start vegetarian arguments and walk away like the mental weakling he is. \n\n&quot;Animals are here so we can eat them and thats a fact&quot; -- he says\n\nI say &quot;Oh yeah show me a fact that proves that&quot;\n\n&quot;This discussion is over end it&quot; -- he says\n\nHe is so scared to argue with me its hilarious but he pisses me off so damn much   <!-- s:x --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif\" alt=\":x\" title=\"Mad\" /><!-- s:x -->  \n\nEnd Rant\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','2wc6o1ku',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10372,1012,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1152527570,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','From what Iv read Hitler wert no vegetarian and I thought Jack the Riper was a real person.Please corect me if Im rong.\nFolks can beleev what they want about the bible.Liv by it or dont pay it no mind.I dont pay it no mind and I had christanity shoved down my throat groing up by folks hating Martin Luther King and alowing cross burnings.I kno whats rong and rite and dont need no religion preaching how I shud liv. Fact is its hatful to be killing animals for food or clothes or anyother reson just cuz we think we beter.Folks can go back and forth about &quot;well the bible saids&quot;.If some kind of sacrafice was needed for some goofy human religion then they shud hav sacraficed a human.\nWe need to leev animals out of our  stupid human religion beleevings.\nOur kind is so screwed up.','',0,'','3p2qibq5',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10373,1012,3,643,0,'72.240.14.115',1152530676,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','although I am a Christian,  i dont believe that the bible can be interperted literaly.  It has been used to justlify every position known to man kind.','',0,'','3gfg18cw',1,0,'',643,0,0),(10375,1012,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1152533359,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:1ovbwakz]although I am a Christian,  i dont believe that the bible can be interperted literaly.  It has been used to justlify every position known to man kind.[/quote:1ovbwakz]\n\nI kno christians who are alot more opened minded then the ones I was raised by and around.I agree with you chris the christian bible has been used and abused to justify what we do.','',0,'gA==','1ovbwakz',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10394,936,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1152644034,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','hhmmm...to keep Brian Ass...ooppsss Cass alive and to keep him in agony for an uncertain amount of time or torture him them pop him off right away.  hhhmmm, what to do....death is too good for him, as that is an immediate release from pain and suffering.  I say the longer the better actually...make him die in his own filthy, shit-infested hole, covered in lesions,  incisions, maybe drop some bleach on his open &quot;sores&quot; and watch him suffer for &quot;a while&quot;.  Ahhhh...to dream.  I hate this fucker. \nActually, hate is too light of a word to describe how I feel about him.','',0,'gA==','2nar7fde',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10400,1252,22,626,0,'82.35.181.219',1152701384,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Fred, you never answered my main questions which is:\n\n1) what has the PLF ever done for plant rights?\n2) show me some solid scientific evidence for complex moral workings in plants.\n3) how can you continue to eat meat (if you do) and say you are for plant rights when an average meat eating US/UK diet consumes three times more plant material than a vegan one.\n\nAnswer them, you seem to be avoiding them.\n\nAs for calling the PLF rubbish, it is.  And that is using all the \'logic\' in the world.  The PLF seem to me to be a joke group, set up primarily to annoy people in AR (well try to anyway).  If they could set out some conclusive evidence with strong scientific evidence and a set arguement, I would eagerly talk to their \'members\', yet so far about half a dozen of them have not done anywhere near that, so why should I try to respect or debate in a sensible way with someone like that?\n\nNow onto terrorism.  Recently I have been thinking over the term terrorism and I have come to the conclusion that there is no terrorism.  Now this does not mean that there isn\'t any violent acts around the World, sure there is, but the term terrorism is so bantered about now it has lost any meaning it once had.  If destroying buildings is terrorism the US and UK army are one of the biggest terrrorists ever, at least the ALF and other groups dont have atomic bombs!  Also why is destroying buildings terrorism?  Who cares what the Goverment says, they will always twist the terms to fit their latest \'terrorist\' (i.e. Bin Laden= friend in 1980s and \'terrorist\' in the 1990s), why is destroying a building terrorism?\nAlso as for the loss of life, why would it be a terrorist act to say, plant a bomb in Hitler\'s bunker and wipe him out, thats killing someone, but would that be terrorism?','',0,'gA==','3i3zdlsi',1,0,'',626,0,0),(10407,936,3,895,0,'71.97.210.182',1152724804,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Against Violence Period','I am against violence in any shape or form. What good does it do to kill someone for killing somebody else? The world is allready full of terriable things why pollute it even more with even more death, and violence? Don\'t get me wrong, abusers defentally need to pay, but I think we are just as bad as them to stoop to their level and not respect all life, weither it is human or animal','',0,'gA==','3tgcqazf',1,0,'',895,0,0),(10408,844,5,895,0,'71.97.210.182',1152725596,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;lil_miss_tashwa&quot;:1kl04euf]the thing that annoys me is those who campaign against furr, like celebrities etc but still wear leather and eat dairy..makes no sense to me[/quote:1kl04euf]\nI totally agree!! It is like how can I pet my dog and feed her and love her as she was one of my family but then turn around and eat a chicken, pig , or cow? It TOTALLY makes no since. Have you seen the documentry &quot;The Witness?&quot; That guy explains it perfectally. He talks about how he became a vegetarian. One day he was petting his cat and rubbing its leg. He said that it somewhat resembled a chicken\'s thy, like the mussle around the bone. That night he went to his parents house for &quot;fried chicken&quot; and he couldn\'t eat it because he said how could he one minute be petting an animal and the next be eating it?','',0,'gA==','1kl04euf',1,0,'',895,0,0),(10413,936,3,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1152753194,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Against Violence Period','[quote=&quot;SummerRae&quot;:3odl1uyg]I am against violence in any shape or form. What good does it do to kill someone for killing somebody else? The world is allready full of terriable things why pollute it even more with even more death, and violence? Don\'t get me wrong, abusers defentally need to pay, but I think we are just as bad as them to stoop to their level and not respect all life, weither it is human or animal[/quote:3odl1uyg]\n\nI pretty much feel the same but there are exceptions to the rule for people like Hitler and Cass............','',0,'gA==','3odl1uyg',1,0,'',897,0,0),(10415,844,5,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1152753533,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Generally, I view people who wear fur as scumbags. Even before I became vegan/ara I shuddered when I was around fur, not that it\'s worse than eating animals. Our mission is to educate people on the horrors of fur along with the rest: vivisection, meat, etc. I like to think that most people, once educated, will shun fur at the very least. \n\nOn a lighter note, here\'s a light weight psa on fur:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.fundforanimals.org/fur/\">http://www.fundforanimals.org/fur/</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','mx3rdb6v',1,1155312650,'',897,1,0),(10417,936,3,895,0,'71.97.210.182',1152754888,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Against Violence Period','[quote=&quot;madlabrat&quot;:1y8ptxgp][quote=&quot;SummerRae&quot;:1y8ptxgp]I am against violence in any shape or form. What good does it do to kill someone for killing somebody else? The world is allready full of terriable things why pollute it even more with even more death, and violence? Don\'t get me wrong, abusers defentally need to pay, but I think we are just as bad as them to stoop to their level and not respect all life, weither it is human or animal[/quote:1y8ptxgp]\n\nI pretty much feel the same but there are exceptions to the rule for people like Hitler and Cass............[/quote:1y8ptxgp]\nFor real! I completely agree!!!\nYou defentally made a good point! <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'gA==','1y8ptxgp',1,0,'',895,0,0),(10418,936,3,638,0,'213.67.154.210',1152756606,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: Against Violence Period','[quote=&quot;SummerRae&quot;:2un9qdir]I am against violence in any shape or form. What good does it do to kill someone for killing somebody else? The world is allready full of terriable things why pollute it even more with even more death, and violence? Don\'t get me wrong, abusers defentally need to pay, but I think we are just as bad as them to stoop to their level and not respect all life, weither it is human or animal[/quote:2un9qdir]\n\nI whish i could agree with you, but unfortunatly in my way of seeing things there are people that just dont get it until you smack the living daylights out of them..Sad but true...\nI also must say, if an righteous amount of violence against a person can stop the pain for the animals that person torments, so what?I KNOW that is against the &quot;no violence&quot; guidelines, but what can i say..sometimes there is no option,the safety and wellbeing of the animals must always come first, whatever it takes, and if that would for example involve knocking out someone who is abusing his pet, i personaly would not hesitate for even a second..or usually dont have any regrets about it anyway <!-- s:whistle: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_whistle.gif\" alt=\":whistle:\" title=\"whistle\" /><!-- s:whistle: --> (at the two times that it has happened, i also took the dogs with me just to make sure they were not abused more and found loving homes for them.I also told their abusing owners that if they wanted to keep breathing they had five seconds to get the f**k out of my sight and forget about their dogs...both dogs are now living with friends of mine and i can asure you there are no dogs in the known universe who are more spoilt rotten than those two. <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> i am sure i come out a bit of a nutter now but at both instances the poor dogs took awful beatings.. )\n\nWhen it comes to Hitl...eeeeehhh..Cass, i can not for the life of me understand how anyone could respect that motherf**er in any way,shape or form...He really,really needs to be put out in the worst way, and fast..','',0,'gA==','2un9qdir',1,0,'',638,0,0),(10421,936,3,895,0,'71.97.210.182',1152768224,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Against Violence Period','[quote=&quot;Daddy_baloo&quot;:2ujbr6lf][quote=&quot;SummerRae&quot;:2ujbr6lf]I am against violence in any shape or form. What good does it do to kill someone for killing somebody else? The world is allready full of terriable things why pollute it even more with even more death, and violence? Don\'t get me wrong, abusers defentally need to pay, but I think we are just as bad as them to stoop to their level and not respect all life, weither it is human or animal[/quote:2ujbr6lf]\n\nI whish i could agree with you, but unfortunatly in my way of seeing things there are people that just dont get it until you smack the living daylights out of them..Sad but true...\nI also must say, if an righteous amount of violence against a person can stop the pain for the animals that person torments, so what?I KNOW that is against the &quot;no violence&quot; guidelines, but what can i say..sometimes there is no option,the safety and wellbeing of the animals must always come first, whatever it takes, and if that would for example involve knocking out someone who is abusing his pet, i personaly would not hesitate for even a second..or usually dont have any regrets about it anyway <!-- s:whistle: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_whistle.gif\" alt=\":whistle:\" title=\"whistle\" /><!-- s:whistle: --> (at the two times that it has happened, i also took the dogs with me just to make sure they were not abused more and found loving homes for them.I also told their abusing owners that if they wanted to keep breathing they had five seconds to get the f**k out of my sight and forget about their dogs...both dogs are now living with friends of mine and i can asure you there are no dogs in the known universe who are more spoilt rotten than those two. <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> i am sure i come out a bit of a nutter now but at both instances the poor dogs took awful beatings.. )\n\nWhen it comes to Hitl...eeeeehhh..Cass, i can not for the life of me understand how anyone could respect that motherf**er in any way,shape or form...He really,really needs to be put out in the worst way, and fast..[/quote:2ujbr6lf]\nYes, you defentaly have a HUGE point!!\nYOU ROCK for telling them that!! <!-- s:loudlaff: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/loudlaff.gif\" alt=\":loudlaff:\" title=\"loud laugh\" /><!-- s:loudlaff: -->  <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \nYou go with your BAD SELF!!\nI WISH I COULD ONLY BE THERE TO TELL THOSE F!@#$%G IDIOTS the same!','',0,'gA==','2ujbr6lf',1,0,'',895,0,0),(10423,1317,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1152781567,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Lab grown \'meat\' ?','Hi im not sure if this is the right forum to post this in but i didnt think it would fit in to any of the others.\n\nAnyway, as a member of myspace, i got a bulletin this morning off one of my friends with this article in it.\n\nI was wondering what people thought about it. Please read and leave comments. Thank you.\n\nWould You Eat Lab-Grown Meat?\nBy Traci Hukill, AlterNet. Posted July 12, 2006.\n\n\nScientists growing meat in petri dishes say it\'s safer, healthier, more humane and less polluting. But can we get past the \'yuck\' factor? \n\nAs I type these words, men and women of science are growing meat in a laboratory. That\'s meat grown independently of any animal. It isn\'t hatched or born. It doesn\'t graze, walk or breathe. But it is alive. It sits growing in a room where somebody has called it into existence with a pipette and syringe.\n\n&quot;Cultured meat,&quot; it\'s called, and it is supposed to save us from the execrable pollution and guilt of factory farms while still allowing all 6.5 billion of us to stuff our gullets with ham sandwiches whenever we want to. It already exists in ground or chipped form. What Dutch scientists are working on now is a product that costs a few dollars per pound instead of a few thousand. It could be as little as five years away.\n\nThe concept is as simple as it is horrifying. Take some stem cells, or myoblasts, which are the precursors to muscle cells. Set them on &quot;scaffolding&quot; that they can attach to, like a flat sheet of plastic that the cells can later be slid off of. Put them in a &quot;growth medium&quot; -- some kind of fluid supplying the nutrients that blood would ordinarily provide. &quot;Exercise&quot; them regularly by administering electric currents or stretching the sheets of cells mechanically. Wait. Harvest. Eat.\n\nIt seems like something out of a chilling sci-fi future, the very epitome of bloodless Matrix-style barbarism. But growing flesh in a petri dish is an old idea from the early 20th century that received a fresh infusion of, how you say, growth medium in 2002. As part of a NASA-funded experiment to find a portable source of animal protein for astronauts, Touro College biology professors Morris Benjaminson and James Gilchriest sliced a bit of muscle from the abdomen of a goldfish and set it in a saline solution enriched with fetal calf serum. Over several weeks the muscle grew about 15 percent. Another muscle growing in a maitake mushroom solution did almost as well.\n\nTo determine whether the product was remotely appetizing or would be too repulsive even for space station humanoids to eat, Benjaminson and Gilchriest convened a panel of female employees, chosen for their gender\'s presumed pickiness and demonstrably superior sense of smell. Gilchriest, who used to be a professional chef (&quot;He makes great calamari,&quot; says Benjaminson), breaded the tiny filet and sauteed it in extra virgin olive oil. He finished with a squeeze of lemon and a dash of pecorino cheese.\n\n&quot;And it smelled good to them,&quot; Benjaminson says. Understandably, the ladies were not asked to eat the &quot;fish.&quot;\n\nWhatever one\'s response to the idea of meat grown in a petri dish --revulsion seems to be a common one -- there are also some compelling reasons in favor of it.\n\n&quot;It\'s cleaner, healthier, less polluting and more humane,&quot; says Jason Matheny, a doctoral student in agricultural policy at the University of Maryland who sits on the board of New Harvest, a research organization for in vitro meat.\n\nMeat grown in the sterile environment of a laboratory wouldn\'t harbor zoonotic diseases like avian flu or contribute to antibiotic resistance, Matheny says. As for human health, artery-clogging beef fat could be swapped out in vitro for salmon fat, for example, with its salubrious omega-3 fatty acids. And the squalid misery of factory farms could be bypassed altogether. No river would be fouled with manure and no chicken\'s beak would be clipped in the making of dinner.\n\nThese are important considerations. All the problems associated with modern meat production -- like the 64 million tons of manure excreted each year by factory farmed animals in the United States alone -- are poised to worsen as the earth\'s population heads toward 9 billion people by 2050. As up-and-coming nations like China and India develop large middle classes that adopt Western habits of consumption, that translates to an exponential rise in meat eaters and factory farms over the next 45 years.\n\nAdd it all up, and some people find cultured meat a splendid idea.\n\nBruce Friedrich, vice president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, calls it &quot;the best thing since sliced bread.&quot; Friedrich, who energetically denounces the eating of &quot;animal corpses&quot; every chance he gets, says that &quot;anything that takes the cruelty out of meat-eating is good.&quot;\n\nThere are a couple of serious problems with cultured meat, though, starting with the fact that people seem to find the idea repellent.\n\n&quot;Yeah,&quot; Matheny admits. &quot;There\'s a \'yuck\' factor involved with producing any novel food.&quot;\n\nPresented with the argument that cultured meat just ain\'t natural, Matheny gamely counters that wine and cheese are engineered products, too.\n\n&quot;And I would say cultured meat is not inherently more unnatural than producing chicken meat from tens of thousands of animals raised intensively in their own feces and fed antibiotics,&quot; he says.\n\nThat is a very good point. But then Matheny, who is vegetarian, probably won\'t be eating much cultured meat, either. Nor will Friedrich, who says he\'s done just fine without eating animal flesh for 18 years and plans to stick with his program.\n\nAs for Benjaminson, when asked if he finds the idea of cultured meat appealing, he answers, &quot;From an esthetic standpoint? No. It would have to taste palatable, and that would require a lot of tissue engineering.&quot;\n\nWhat a lot of trouble to go to for a solution that is frankly nightmarish (especially the &quot;exercising&quot; of the disembodied muscle by means of electrical shocks). All cultivation is a form of enslavement, however benevolent or necessary, but harnessing the manic energy of stem cells takes that dynamic into a realm where the side effects -- the &quot;equal and opposite reaction&quot; promised by Newton -- play out perilously close to the life process itself. If synthetic fertilizer, which seemed like such a great way to boost plant fertility, can create a dead zone the size of Maryland at the Mississippi Delta, wiping out a totally different link in the food chain, who\'s to say what would come of overexploited RNA or mitochondria?\n\nFred Kirschenmann of Iowa State University\'s Leopold Center for Sustainable Agriculture just hopes there will be plenty of testing. &quot;I\'m not saying some of these new ideas can\'t be done and they won\'t work at some level, but every time we mess around with our ecological heritage there are always unintended side effects that come from it,&quot; he says. &quot;We have a long history of unintended consequences.\n\n&quot;We\'ve got all these animals out there right now,&quot; he adds, &quot;and if we suddenly decide we don\'t want to raise them, what does that do to the larger ecology?&quot;\n\nHere\'s an idea: Instead of safeguarding our appetites and engineering our meat, let\'s safeguard our meat and engineer our appetites. What if real animals were raised humanely and in sustainable numbers, so that their meat cost more -- maybe even a lot more? What if people only ate it on special occasions? What if, instead of deciding that the most important thing was to be able to satisfy every idle hankering for a cheeseburger, humanity assessed the resources and made a rational decision about protein acquisition that did not involve divorcing its food source from the life cycle? What if we took the invisible hand of the market, which has all the self-discipline and foresight of a 14-year-old boy, off the job and put a grown-up in charge?\n\nOne of the many people who has already thought of this is Robert Lawrence, director of the Center for a Livable Future at Johns Hopkins University\'s Bloomberg School of Public Health. Although Lawrence sits on New Harvest\'s board, he\'s skeptical about the possibilities for cultured meat.\n\n&quot;I think it\'s an interesting idea,&quot; he says . &quot;I think in some situations it might have real value as an important bioavailable form of quality protein. But there are other more straightforward and readily available solutions.&quot;\n\nThe most obvious one is moderating intake, both frequency and portion size. The Center for a Livable Future sponsors a Meatless Mondays campaign that has attracted interest from public school systems in New York and Maryland. But as mild a suggestion as Meatless Monday is (Meatless Monday Through Thursday would be a lot closer to the mark) it has provoked what Lawrence calls a &quot;backlash&quot; by the meat industry.\n\n&quot;They called me an environmental extremist,&quot; he says with a laugh.\n\nThat bit of hysteria reveals volumes. It could be a long time before people smell the legume blossoms and start eating lower on the food chain. Matheny thinks cultured meat can be &quot;a stopgap measure&quot; aiding that process, methadone for meat eaters to ease the transition out of the era of 72-ounce steaks and into the days of dollops of hummus.\n\nMaybe he\'s right. Maybe in vitro meat can serve that purpose. Or maybe it will work in a different way -- by so thoroughly grossing people out that they\'ll gladly reduce their meat consumption just so they lessen the risk of accidentally eating a meatri burger. That\'s how it\'s working on me. \n\nTraci Hukill is a freelance journalist based in Monterey, Calif.','',0,'gA==','1u8yq6xh',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10428,1317,3,626,0,'82.35.181.219',1152784945,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','No.','',0,'gA==','2932adbj',1,0,'',626,0,0),(10429,1317,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1152785129,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thats very good to hear  <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'gA==','2v24z2fv',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10432,1317,3,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1152799132,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I voted no.\n\nIt should be noted that I do currently feed my animals meat and I would switch to lab grown meat for them if it were available.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1o4cnw3w',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10434,1317,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1152800261,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hey thanks vegan angel <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\ncan i ask why the poll says yes at 100% at the top ? when everybody that has posted has voted no so far ? i dont understand that.\n\nThank you for your vote and as for feeding your animals meat, i dont believe that that is entirely wrong. But i agree that lad grown meat would be slightly more morally right. But why grow meat another way if scientists are saying that it is fine to eat meat the way it is now ? It confuses me  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'gA==','36j7patg',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10435,936,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1152807151,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Cass is the epitome of evil and he should be stopped at any cost.  That is just my honest opinion.  \n\nWhen that shithead is gone from this earth I will cheer loudly.','',0,'gA==','1lygv2p1',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10439,1252,22,796,0,'86.143.190.120',1152814790,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','this thread is still going??','',0,'gA==','1r78dj8p',1,0,'',796,0,0),(10444,936,3,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1152830261,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:r3xddzj5]When that shithead is gone from this earth I will cheer loudly[/quote:r3xddzj5]\n\nI\'m sure there will be a world wide ara party!  <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->','',0,'gA==','r3xddzj5',1,0,'',897,0,0),(10445,1317,3,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1152843898,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Well I know with mine beccause I forgot to hit submit vote as I just wrote the letter  <!-- s:oops: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif\" alt=\":oops:\" title=\"Embarassed\" /><!-- s:oops: --> \n\nMine is fixed now.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','9mo76wt9',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10446,1252,22,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1152844006,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yes and thanks for participating illstone!\n\n <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','dvbh1lef',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10453,1317,3,836,0,'195.93.21.70',1152868011,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','yeh i\'ve noticed its started changing.  lol  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','1418yuk1',1,0,'',836,0,0),(10455,1317,3,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1152880165,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','moral grounds','I would have no objection to eating it on moral grounds, since no sentient being would suffer -- in fact if it is grown in a lab perhaps fewer beings suffer than suffer when I order broccoli. So I\'d vote yes, except for the fact that I wouldn\'t order it because it doesn\'t SOUND good to me. So I\'d vote no except for the fact that I wouldn\'t refuse to take a bite if someone whom I trusted said it was healthy and tasted wonderful. so my official vote is &quot;Probably not&quot;.','',0,'gA==','1co1j0ys',1,0,'',2,0,0),(10462,936,3,906,0,'139.133.7.38',1152953769,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I understand that there is a moral argument for removing these criminals, but...\n\nAnimal abusers should also be removed from the gene pool in the interests of eugenics.\n\nCriminality and psychopathic behaviour traits are, to an extent, heritable.\n\nPeople who eat meat are also known to be more primitive than vegetarians/vegans.\n\nAnyone can eat meat, but primitive people cannot survive without it because they are genetically defective.\n\nBrahmins in India forced Dalits (low-caste, the lowest of the low) to be vegetarian as an experiment to see how primitive they were and many of them ended up malnourished and deformed.\n\nSounds like quite an interesting experiment to me.\n\nSorry if this makes me sound like a Nazi, but I get really twitchy about this issue.\n\nI think that many animal murderers are ugly genetic detritous who make our society ugly. Some people eat meat because they are indoctrinated. I can accept that, but the people who cannot survive without it, because of physical ineptitude do not deserve to live. They are life not worthy of life.\n\nIn a better society employers should be able to refuse employment to meat-eaters (passive animal abusers) and landlords should also be able to evict such people, the same way that they might want to evict paedophiles.\n\nThis is humane alternative to putting them into internment camps. We would also have to deny them access to the welfare system, unless they agree to be sterilised.\n\nTalking of Nazis, why equate Cass with Hitler?\n\nAdolf Hitler recycled animal abusers.\n\nCass employ/s/ed them?','',0,'gA==','37k04g87',1,0,'',906,0,0),(10463,936,3,796,0,'86.134.153.74',1152954056,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;sat_chit_anand&quot;:bhp72zpy]\n\nIn a better society employers should be able to refuse employment to meat-eaters (passive animal abusers) and landlords should also be able to evict such people, the same way that they might want to evict paedophiles.\n[/quote:bhp72zpy]\n\nthats just fucking stupid.','',0,'gA==','bhp72zpy',1,0,'',796,0,0),(10464,1317,3,906,0,'139.133.7.38',1152954362,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Well, we have had hydroponic vegetable growing for years, but I question the purity of animal flesh, do we really have the enzymes to digest it?\n\nMeat-eating is a primitive fetish and people who cannot live without meat are genetic throwbacks...\n\nIn a word : NO','',0,'gA==','t6dadf22',1,0,'',906,0,0),(10465,936,3,906,0,'139.133.7.38',1152954689,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;illstone&quot;:2ee7xpnw][quote=&quot;sat_chit_anand&quot;:2ee7xpnw]\n\nIn a better society employers should be able to refuse employment to meat-eaters (passive animal abusers) and landlords should also be able to evict such people, the same way that they might want to evict paedophiles.\n[/quote:2ee7xpnw]\n\nthats just fucking stupid.[/quote:2ee7xpnw]\n\nWhy not? I think that we should have the choice. To deny us that is an infringement of our civil liberties.\n\nDo you have a logical rational counter-argument to what I have said?','',0,'gA==','2ee7xpnw',1,0,'',906,0,0),(10466,936,3,796,0,'86.134.153.74',1152954983,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;sat_chit_anand&quot;:1w7oxt2d][quote=&quot;illstone&quot;:1w7oxt2d][quote=&quot;sat_chit_anand&quot;:1w7oxt2d]\n\nIn a better society employers should be able to refuse employment to meat-eaters (passive animal abusers) and landlords should also be able to evict such people, the same way that they might want to evict paedophiles.\n[/quote:1w7oxt2d]\n\nthats just fucking stupid.[/quote:1w7oxt2d]\n\nWhy not? I think that we should have the choice. To deny us that is an infringement of our civil liberties.\n\nDo you have a logical rational counter-argument to what I have said?[/quote:1w7oxt2d]\n\nim confused, you talk about civil liberties, but you say people who cannot survive without meat dotn deserve to live and shouldn\'t be allowed to work?\n\nunless ive just read yoru post wrong...','',0,'gA==','1w7oxt2d',1,0,'',796,0,0),(10467,936,3,906,0,'139.133.7.38',1152955354,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;illstone&quot;:sny53nb6][quote=&quot;sat_chit_anand&quot;:sny53nb6][quote=&quot;illstone&quot;:sny53nb6][quote=&quot;sat_chit_anand&quot;:sny53nb6]\n\nIn a better society employers should be able to refuse employment to meat-eaters (passive animal abusers) and landlords should also be able to evict such people, the same way that they might want to evict paedophiles.\n[/quote:sny53nb6]\n\nthats just fucking stupid.[/quote:sny53nb6]\n\nWhy not? I think that we should have the choice. To deny us that is an infringement of our civil liberties.\n\nDo you have a logical rational counter-argument to what I have said?[/quote:sny53nb6]\n\nim confused, you talk about civil liberties, but you say people who cannot survive without meat dotn deserve to live and shouldn\'t be allowed to work?\n\nunless ive just read yoru post wrong...[/quote:sny53nb6]\n\n[quote:sny53nb6]you say people who cannot survive without meat dotn deserve to live [/quote:sny53nb6]\n\nThis is just my personal opinion.\n\n[quote:sny53nb6] shouldn\'t be allowed to work?[/quote:sny53nb6]\n\nThat is not what I said.\n\nThey can work, fine, but employers and landlords should have the right to say \'no thanks\' to employing/housing them in view of their habits.\n\nThen all the meat-eaters can create a stinky meat-eating gravy-topia away from the normal civilised people.\n\nI posit this as a humane alternative to other more ugly methods of dealing with the problem.\n\nI agree that the sterilisation/internment camp remark was a little harsh!\n\nI think that economic and social exclusion would work wonders in reducing their numbers.\n\nI think that meat production and consumption is an important part of maintaining the Communist/Capitalist axis which dominates our society, since large amounts of land are required, and food production and distribution becomes dominated by the elites.\n\nIndeed, the land ownership laws we have today came into existence in Europe as a result of early Christianity. Christians required large amounts of vellum to produce their books, and so required large amount of land for their grazing animals.\n\nIt becomes a form of tyranny. Dysgenic trends become locked into our culture and we become dependent upon technocratic mechanisms for our survival.\n\nIf it were possible to exclude meat-eaters and animal abusers from your environs, would you not choose to do so?\n\nWho would win in the end? We would!\n\nWhy? Because we require less land and we could out-breed and out-compete them within a few generations.\n\nMeat production, animal abuse and capitalism/socialism/social control are intrinsically linked to each other.','',0,'gA==','sny53nb6',1,0,'',906,0,0),(10497,936,3,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1153110187,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','illstone \n\nFirst I should say I somewhat agree with sat. I also realize what sat said is extremely unlikely.\n\n\nOne question if you speak for civil liberties what do you think of the fact that a landlord can deny you an appartment if you have a pet or a child? Civil liberties are denied all the time many people just don\'t notice it or care.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','dq2gu25r',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10501,936,3,938,0,'210.54.230.141',1153118817,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','The way I look at it, two wrongs don’t make a right. If you kill animal killers, would you not be stooping to the same level?  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: --> We are in effect all part of the animal kingdom; a human does something we might find unethical so we euthanize them… How does that progress mankind to a higher level?\n\nMaybe humans should know better but I think sometimes you get bad apples and these bad apples can sometimes affect the good ones. Maybe the human race should look to dog breeders for the answers, we pick the ones with the traits we like and take the rest out back and shoot them. Does this sound like progress?','',0,'gA==','60hq8htr',1,0,'',938,0,0),(10504,1252,22,938,0,'210.54.75.12',1153127252,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','The PLF philosophy is an interesting one and although on the surface a little lacking in logic, I believe it does offer something to ponder over.\n\n[quote:2ydg6r7j]The Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations (the FAO) estimates that there are roughly a quarter million plant varieties available for agriculture, but less than 3 percent of these are in use today. With disuse comes neglect and possibly extinction.[/quote:2ydg6r7j]\n[b:2ydg6r7j][i:2ydg6r7j][color=blue:2ydg6r7j]From[/color:2ydg6r7j] [url:2ydg6r7j]http&#58;//www&#46;idrc&#46;ca/en/ev-31631-201-1-DO_TOPIC&#46;html[/url:2ydg6r7j][/i:2ydg6r7j][/b:2ydg6r7j]\n\nI really believe we are guilty of abusing plants, maybe not in the physical sense but they are essential for life and I believe we’re guilty of some mismanagement. Just look at what’s happened in places like southern Africa, a little extreme maybe but if we don’t look after them we surly starve.\n\nTake PLF and ALF and mix them together, maybe you’d get efficiency something that’s lacking as food production advances into the future. Lowering your impact, keeping your ecological footprint as small as possible is surely the answer to many of the problems.\n\n[b:2ydg6r7j][i:2ydg6r7j][url:2ydg6r7j]http&#58;//www&#46;veganorganic&#46;net/agri&#46;htm[/url:2ydg6r7j][/i:2ydg6r7j][/b:2ydg6r7j]','',0,'8g==','2ydg6r7j',1,0,'',938,0,0),(10548,756,15,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1153240087,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','It depends...','I think what pets should and should not be exposed to depends upon the situation.  I have two indoor cats.  Uncle Fred (12 year old male) would love to go outside.  Phantom (8 year old female) doesn\'t mind looking out the door.  My neighbors dog, however, would be MORE THAN PLEASED if I let the cats out unsupervised.  My neighbor has even warned us that his dog will more than likely go after a cat.  So I take my cats out daily and watch the area like a hawk.\n\nI\'d love to let my cats out to their hearts content, but if the busy street didn\'t get them, or the coyotes out in the woods didn\'t get them, the neighbors dog most certainly would.','',0,'8g==','30b6vs9r',1,0,'',943,0,0),(10608,936,3,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1153457543,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Good idea if you are a supporter of nature not nurture. The nature philosophy believes that a person is genetically a bad seed or a good seed. The nurture philosophy believes if it were possible to take exact duplicates of a human child and you put one in a loving environment and the other in a horribly abusive existence the loving enviro turn good while the abused one is bad. \n\nSomeone else tried a breeding program for humans...... hmmmm who was that oh yeah Hitler.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'8g==','3dwtasi6',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10648,936,3,897,0,'72.18.104.34',1153590727,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:mvbglcnu]The way I look at it, two wrongs don’t make a right. If you kill animal killers, would you not be stooping to the same level[/quote:mvbglcnu]\n\nWell, they stopped Dahmer','',0,'gA==','mvbglcnu',1,0,'',897,0,0),(10671,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1153705106,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter,\n\nSorry it has been so long since I posted but I\'ve got tons going on all good though!\n\nOk so I am not filtering my ground water but I am filtering water from my tap (yay no more plastic bottles)\n\nThis is the link to the water filter I got. I purchased the second one on the page. The water is so much fresher now I cannot believe the difference. My indoor animals are switched to filtered water and ice. Soon the outdoor birdbath will be on that also (yay birdies)\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.jamesfilter.com/british_berkefeld.htm#Berkey%20light\">http://www.jamesfilter.com/british_berk ... ey%20light</a><!-- m -->\n\n\nMy radio finally arrived it works great.\n\nI am waiting for the power tip.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.shophometrends.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_309401\">http://www.shophometrends.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_309401</a><!-- m -->\n\nHome Trends is a legit company they send what you buy I have purchased from them in the past. They are not an off grid catalog but have some handy household items.\n\nI purchased the newspaper roller to make logs also and have begun to make logs for this winter. I also threw out my egg beaters and switched to a nonelectric one. \n\nI am still seeing if I can switch my waterfall to solar will let you know if it happens. \n\nI have also recently gotten back into DXing now that I have a hand crank radio. Considering Ham radio now (a while off) but if I do I am going to broadcast about vegetarianism and animal activism as I would own the station  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nThat does involve a bit of money but I am very interested in doing it. \n\nOne day I will burn out and collapse  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nStarted repairs to my habitat also........WHEEEEE\n\nThats about all for now. Let me know whats up in your world.\n\nBye For Now,\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2remzdh4',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10688,936,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1153761802,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;madlabrat&quot;:2ijtazhp][quote:2ijtazhp]The way I look at it, two wrongs don’t make a right. If you kill animal killers, would you not be stooping to the same level[/quote:2ijtazhp]\n\n[b:2ijtazhp]Well, they stopped Dahmer[/b:2ijtazhp][/quote:2ijtazhp]\n\n\nDahmer...Cass....same shit different pile.','',0,'wA==','2ijtazhp',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10690,1317,3,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1153762225,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','hhhmmmm...would I eat this meat?  Probably not for health reasons (I like my arteries clear and unplugged thank you very much).  Do I support this?  ABSOLUTELY!!','',0,'wA==','1flm15ln',1,0,'',124,0,0),(10706,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1153824141,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hey Angel    I been in the hospital.This my first day back in front of a computer.Had some weird shit going on with my legs.Lots of intense pain.It was unreel.Then I got sik from the drugs that was pumped in me.Messed up my inerds.I was in the hospital a week and at home a week recovering.Im alittl slo and I dont hav the energy I had befor but I think itll all come back.I feel beter everyday.\nBeen spending time in the garden.I like it there.Im geting pimento pepers,mators,black berrys and big jalapenoes.My okra is coming up too.My dog got bit by a copperhed.He,ll be ok.I got him on antiinfection drugs too.His hed is all bloed up.Poor rascal looks funy but acting regular.Deer been messing with some of my pepers outside my garden fence for the first time.They ok,but shud hav planted more for them and me.\nWhats the power tip for on your radio?\nWas your habitate damaged by the rain awhile back?\nI been geting a good amount of rain.My buckets stay full.\nBe good','',0,'wA==','qi59wh4o',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10744,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1153883505,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kriter,\n\nI am so sorry to hear about your hospital stay glad you are on the road to recovery. Also sorry about you doggy and glad he is recovering. Do you have a snakebite kit? I am thinking about investing in one along with several other medical supplies. I have not had any poisonous ones released here but I have had a few costrictors released here that I had to trap. The worst experience I had as a child was having to behead a snake it was a boa and it was late at night he was injured and had gotten into my home after someone released him I used an ax and killed him with one lop. I had to kill a few animals as a child that were injured at odd times and places so it is a site I have sort of gotten used to. I know that sounds cruel but at times it is more merciful than letting them suffer back in the day there were no ER vets were I lived that would come out at night and the police just shot any injured wild animal so they were no use to call.\n\nThe &quot;Power Tip&quot; is a misleading name for a military antenna which takes no actual power. I am already picking up broadcasts from Cuba and China and many other places. It will help me receive them clearer.\n\nThe habitat was damaged in a few ways. Several floods last year, severe rain this year, my illness if you remember a few months back I had a reaction to mold and they gave me meds and I ended up in the hospital as I was in and out of consciosness and having severe breathing problems from a worse allergic reaction to the meds  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: -->\nMust stay away from doctors. Doctors are evil.... \n\nWell I guess that is all for now. Take care and you and your puppy feel better.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','23saus56',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10763,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1153909348,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Im doing rite good and so is my dog.The swelling is down on his face.We wont be wuped.Dogs handle geting bit by copperheds and rattlers alot beter then people do.Most the time if they was to get bit on the face or the foot they swell but they get well.Im glad my other 2 littl girl dogs had beter sense then to go stiffing a copperhed.Always thawt girls was alittl bit smarter.\nI done killed criters for the same reson you was talking about.Its a hard thing to hav to do.Everytime I hope its the last.\nYour radio sounds dynamite.I want one.I hav a small radio I can crank or put out in the sun for power.I got it from Gaia years ago.Yours sounds alot beter.\nIm back to work after being layed up for 2 weeks.Next week I start a week long vacation.Aint got no plans. Just somthing Im doing for myself for my birthday.I never took a week off befor,just to be off.Reckon Ill just catch up on  chores.Never run out of chores living like I do.Always somthing to fix or build and got to sav alittl time each day to play in the creek.','',0,'wA==','tgbuhj7r',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10764,1317,3,938,0,'219.88.1.51',1153914136,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I still have a few concerns regarding this ‘vitro meat’.\n\n[quote:1hkfnzbo]Put them in a &quot;growth medium&quot; -- some kind of fluid supplying the nutrients that blood would ordinarily provide.[/quote:1hkfnzbo]\nWhat is this ‘growth medium’ made from? Isn’t a major concern against meat consumption the argument that its production is inefficient, how does this new product compare?\n\nIf we adopted this new meat production method, what would we do with the byproducts from other human food production industries? Could these be used to produce this ‘growth medium’, I wonder. <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: --> \n\nIf we adopted a monoculture agricultural production method, how would this affect the fertility of our soils? As we know that the production of wheat alone in ancient Sumeria transformed once-fertile plains into salt flats that remain sterile 5,000 years later.\n\nMost of the harm to our bodies I believe is being done through use of agrochemicals, pesticides, artificial fertilizers, hormones and steroids which seem to find there way into food no matter what strict food raceme we follow. Might this new meat medium improve or worsen the affect of these chemicals?','',0,'gA==','1hkfnzbo',1,0,'',938,0,0),(10801,1317,3,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1153965088,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','quote\n\nIf we adopted this new meat production method, what would we do with the byproducts from other human food production industries? Could these be used to produce this ‘growth medium’, I wonder. <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: --> \n\nquote\n\n-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFeed millions of starving people.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nquote\nIf we adopted a monoculture agricultural production method, how would this affect the fertility of our soils? As we know that the production of wheat alone in ancient Sumeria transformed once-fertile plains into salt flats that remain sterile 5,000 years later.\n\nquote\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://ipec.utulsa.edu/Conf2002/bernier_myers_hall_95.pdf\">http://ipec.utulsa.edu/Conf2002/bernier ... all_95.pdf</a><!-- m -->\nhere is a writing from a university on how to help rebuild damaged soil also much has been learned in 5000 years on how to take care of dirt.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nquote\n\nMost of the harm to our bodies I believe is being done through use of agrochemicals, pesticides, artificial fertilizers, hormones and steroids which seem to find there way into food no matter what strict food raceme we follow. Might this new meat medium improve or worsen the affect of these chemicals?\nquote\n-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\nMost organic foods have this stuff in much less quantity if someone cares about their health they need to be active to protect it.\n-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------','',0,'gA==','3qcbkoxq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10802,880,15,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1153965681,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No one was debating if he was a good person or not, just if he was vegetarian. Lets for sake of argument we proved Jesus was not a vegetarian. I would not think less of him because they did not have grocery stores or many of the conveniences or the knowledge of how to grow for nutritional health it was 5000 some years ago. I do however think less of you for eatting meat. I know you think I\'m an asshole to bad I take that as a complement from a carnivore.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1fm4xyfd',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10806,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1153966351,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Glad you and puppy are feeling better. I am in a miserable mood today I had a family of groundhogs on my habitat and some fucker ran over one of the babies that wandered into the road. I tried helping him but it was no use fortunately he died quick. I had assistance on the way already before they arrived he was gone. People suck.\n\nWhen the power tip comes in I will let you know how good or bad it works... we shall see.\n\nHave a good one.\n\nBye For Now,\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1e188a14',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10814,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1153994851,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Im sory about the groundhog.People do suk.','',0,'gA==','nshelqr1',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10815,1362,16,737,0,'83.67.139.76',1153999350,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Toothpaste!?','Hi All,\n\nCan any of you reccomend a toothpaste that\'s widely available in the UK?\n\nThank you\nx','',0,'gA==','p6t7c804',1,0,'',737,0,0),(10819,1317,3,938,0,'210.86.45.219',1154002822,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:18sla0t0]Feed millions of starving people.[/quote:18sla0t0]\nYou may have been mistaken; I was referring to those byproducts that have little or no direct feed value or physical human usefulness.\n\n[quote:18sla0t0]here is a writing from a university on how to help rebuild damaged soil also much has been learned in 5000 years on how to take care of dirt.[/quote:18sla0t0]\nThat’s an interesting read but it seems to be referring to the re-vegetation (thus improving soil structure) of an oil spilled area. Part of the successful remedy is to include the introduction of organic matter, included in which appears to be manure, presumably obtained from farm animals, its source isn’t though documented it merely says “commercially purchasedâ€','',0,'gA==','18sla0t0',1,0,'',938,0,0),(10831,1362,16,978,0,'62.252.224.19',1154050020,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Toothpaste!','Hey there,,, Lookout for a store called &quot;Lush&quot; they are springing up in most major cities in the U.K. and a global concern. Lush have great animal ethics and they do a mean vanilla salt toothpaste that makes your gnashers feel great <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nCheck them out at <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.lush.com\">www.lush.com</a><!-- w -->, I\'m sure they do mail order too.\n\nWhile you are there you can also vote against the E.U.\'s proposed mandatory testing!!!\n\nI don\'t work for Lush [Honest] but I think they are pretty good <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nTolly.','',0,'','25ynu94j',1,0,'',978,0,0),(10835,1362,16,19,0,'71.201.153.152',1154052877,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I LOVE LUSH!  Someone on a list I am on recommended them.  I thought the prices were a bit salty until I realized the quality of their products.  I have never tried the toothpaste but everything else is amazing.  Mostly vegan too.','',0,'','37p23mfe',1,0,'',19,0,0),(10840,1317,3,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1154061966,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Dairy\n\nThe first one you got me on, mind you I am ususally on here after midnight as a cool down from a busy day. \n\nThe second one I also claimed much has been learned in 5000 years. For instance we now understand crop rotation. Certain plants add one thing and deplete another. Composting can also be used to build up soil and is natural so no chemical additives to the soil (also that can come from some of the inedible plant parts). Not all fertilizer is cow manure based. Here is one source of manure that would not disappear if we disposed of all animal farmers. \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.envirolet.com/\">http://www.envirolet.com/</a><!-- m -->\n\nI have never dealt with this company and make no claims of dishonesty or honesty. I however would love to buy a composting toilet one day one day...\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','3tdfukwt',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10842,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1154062738,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','hxh7hkzq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10846,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1154081777,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','A part of my job is maintaining some athletic fields.It  challenging cuz I wont use all these chemcials my boss wants me use.But in one field theres a set of beachers put into a hill side.A old groundhog been living under them bleacher I kno atleest 18 years.Hes a big gray rascal.Hes had a few girl frends.He dont bother nobody.He runs back in his hole when folks come on the field.The last athletic director wanted me to kill it.I didnt.\nThat seems to be the anser to everything with folks.Just kill it.','',0,'','26rvz6o8',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10849,1186,16,968,0,'212.76.37.176',1154089305,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.iamscruelty.com/\">http://www.iamscruelty.com/</a><!-- m -->\n\nI would like to sent protest email to IAMS but is something wrob with this site-when I do-&quot;sent&quot; I have message that is something wrong with this site-meaby IAMS remove something and people can not send protest mail??? <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> Long time ago - almost 2 years ago I buy Eucanuba for ma 2 dogs-them I stop-I heard a lot of bad things about this carm-so I stop-now I buy veterinarian carm -since 1 year','',0,'','2r0tg1jn',1,0,'',968,0,0),(10866,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1154098935,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','True enough, most people won\'t even swerve to avoid crashing there car into an animal. The person that hit my groundhog did not live around me he was just some shmuck visiting a neighbor. The GH lived right near my well I accidently found his hole one day when I tripped in it. I knew they were close by as the babies I had encountered several times in the garden as they ran across me accidently one of them even ran right over my foot when I was feeding the birds. I still am not sure who was more startled  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','j2loamfx',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10869,1317,3,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1154099279,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Actually from the articles I have read it is predicted that it would cost less to bring to market than real meat.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','akup1zzr',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10875,1186,16,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1154100149,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','look up the company itself they will have a way to contact them.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','3bo94dk5',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10877,1362,16,980,0,'80.189.27.60',1154100446,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Lush is amazing, the toothpaste tubes are tiny tho.\nI still have a black charcoal one I use on special occasions as its so small and expensive.','',0,'','1alcdvqe',1,0,'',980,0,0),(10903,1282,33,827,0,'12.10.217.50',1154106765,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I\'m not sure if I could ever live without power, but as soon as I can afford it, my house is going solar. I\'m completely at a loss as to why all new houses being built are not fitted with this technology. I\'m not quite sure why it\'s so expensive, either.','',0,'','1bvgt6vc',1,0,'',827,0,0),(10911,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1154109426,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Sarah off griding does not mean no power it means no conventional power. I still have all the conveniences. Kriter does live totally off grid and runs on deep cell batteries I don;t know much about that. If you are an average person financially like myself you can do semi switch solar oven, alternate dryers, and various things discussed in here which can help you save money for total conversion. I have no idea what your home setup is but odds are there is some appliance you could switch with little time or effort and often times not to much money. Any questions feel free to ask I am no expert but will do my best to answer.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','1941ma4s',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10914,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1154113001,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I live in a small trailer or mobile home,to me its my house.I got it new and its wired AC.I got 8 deep cell batteries I charge about once a week with a propane generator.I have to over charge them once a month to keep them healthy and equaly charged.A solar system works the same way.Insted of using a generator to charge your batteries you use solar panels.But you still hav to equalize the batteries with a generator once a month or they wont last.\nI live alone so I dont use much power and I got to be conservitive so I dont hav to use the generator anymore then I do.When the batteries start getting old they wont hold a charge as long no matter how much you charge them.The batteries can last 12 to 13 years if took care of.Or they can last 3 years.They are xpensive.\nThe power company wanted $10,000 to run power to my house,I was curious.My system in 1990 cost $7,000 including generator,batteries,invertor and alot of littl stuff.\nAC comes out the generator and goes into a invertor which changes it to DC and sends it to the batteries.When I turn on anything, power leeves the batteries goes into the invertor and gets changed back to AC and sent thru the house.This is wired into my panel box.\nI dont make alot of money.So I aint been able to get no panels.But I will.\nI use battery powered lanterns and I hav one oil type lantern.Flashlites are kept at both doors and one in the generator shed.\nI couldnt make myself let the power company cut down trees  for poles and cables.I never regreted it.','',0,'','2av6idxg',1,0,'',454,0,0),(10915,1362,16,737,0,'83.67.139.76',1154113036,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thank you!  I know Lush but I didn\'t know they did tooth paste..,.just soap.  I\'m going to chack out their site now\n\n <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->','',0,'','2v7tk4hf',1,0,'',737,0,0),(10922,1317,3,554,0,'66.130.197.2',1154116606,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I personnaly would not eat it.  Don\'t need to.\n\nI can\'t understand why we feel the need to constantly invent new things to eat when we clearly have all we need.  I am saying that we have enough to eat  variety wise, but as 1 of 6 on the planet is starving, we are clearly not distributing what we do have in the proper way.\n\nABOLISH THE ANIMAL FARMING INDUSTRY= MORE GRAIN TO FEED HUMANS.\n\nFAKE MEAT= UNNECESSARY','',0,'','350ye8r2',1,0,'',554,0,0),(10923,1362,16,978,0,'62.252.224.19',1154117086,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Toothpaste','Respect,,, you are most welcome <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nIt is true that LUSH toothpaste is only a small tube, the point is you only need a small pea size portion to adequately do the gnasher job <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> I find a tube can last me as long as the common frankenstein brands.\n\nLUSH stuff is a little expensive and can be a bit freaky when you first use it. I budget my toiletries into a LUSH visit once a month, the stuff lasts for ages though and as discolisious rightly points out the stuff they sell is top notch - hand made, ethic driven perfection!\n\nAnyways I love all they stand for, they can have my money anyday, it is somewhat pleasing being a 100% LUSH dude <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nTolly.','',0,'','1y9sf1k5',1,0,'',978,0,0),(10924,1317,3,488,0,'152.163.100.5',1154117498,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Heres my opinion.   Ok - I know everybody is going to hate me for this. \nFirst everybody knows im not fond of industrial slaughterhouses- Guess ive had too much time around them.But as you all know ive grown and killed my own meat for years. I know whats im eating that way.\nI dont buy meat from the grocer because it just dosent taste the same to me.\n As for lab grown meat- absolutely NOT- . In my opinion growing meat in a lab like that is playing God.  \n Lab grown meat in no way appeals to me. It just dosent seem right. \n But thats just my opinion.','',0,'','18cfpmpz',1,0,'',488,0,0),(10933,1317,3,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1154129997,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','scientific advances','From what I\'ve read the grown meat will taste exactly the same as raised meat, and it will be free of diseases.\n\nGetting used to grown meat should be one of the easier scientific advances to which we\'ll have to adjust. It is predicted that in the next century there will be many scientific advances with moral issues that will require us to re-think things.\n\nI think the success of the meat will depend on the cost.\n\nIt always amazes me how so many folks buy the cheapest product, regardless of taste. I\'ve seen ladies buy tomatoes that tasted like paper and pass right by tasty tomatoes that were more expensive. Tasteless tomatoes sell just dandy.\n\nAnd, as most vegetarians know, you can fool most meat eaters with tangy sauces.','',0,'','3jub2rpz',1,0,'',2,0,0),(10939,1282,33,372,0,'68.9.117.179',1154134348,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hello All,\n\nThis is just a sidenote that I am posting due to a private note I rec\'d. Someone asked me about the non electric machines I use to compress newspaper and mail. I thought I had posted a link but I guess I didn\'t sorry to anyone who was interested.  \n\nThis link is for the newspaper roller  \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=2863&amp;itemType=PRODUCT&amp;RS=1&amp;keyword=newspaper\">http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product ... =newspaper</a><!-- m -->\n\n\nThe link for the mail compressor is \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=5788&amp;itemType=PRODUCT&amp;iProductID=5788\">http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product ... uctID=5788</a><!-- m -->\n\n\n\nI know it says newspaper but nonglossy mail without plastic works just takes a bit more effort.\n\n\nHope this is helpful to someone.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','2kp7mz69',1,0,'',372,0,0),(10965,1186,16,977,0,'81.159.1.59',1154162275,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','there is also some info about Iams here :\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.uncaged.co.uk/iams.htm\">http://www.uncaged.co.uk/iams.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'','2pntcw02',1,0,'',977,0,0),(10982,1386,18,977,0,'81.159.1.59',1154167526,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','The chilling truth about ice cream','article in the paper about dairy ice cream. <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: -->  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: --> \n\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/dietfitness.html?in_article_id=393432&amp;in_page_id=1798\">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1798</a><!-- m -->\n\n\nWhen I was growing up, my dad’s cousin, struggling to make a living as a farmer after the introduction of milk quotas, decided to turn his hand to making ice cream. \n\nI remember peering into the dairy where expensive machinery churned the fresh milk and cream from the cows that I could see grazing in the fields. \n\nAnd I remember, too, how delicious it was to eat those cornets, piled high with dark chocolate ice cream, licking and slurping and being careful not to lose a single drip. \n\nThere can’t be a child in Britain who doesn’t know that ice cream is made from gloriously rich, frozen double cream, sugar and sometimes eggs — after all, it’s there in the name, isn’t it? Ice cream. Or is it? \n\nMost people would lose their appetite pretty quickly if they knew what actually went into some of the thousands of tubs of ice cream that are sold from supermarket freezer cabinets every day. \n\nThis week, it was revealed that Unilever, who own Wall’s, Magnum, Carte d’Or and Ben &amp; Jerry’s, have applied to the Food Standards Agency (FSA) for permission to add to a diet range of frozen fruit ices a protein created using GM technology from the blood of an ocean pout, an eel-like creature that lives in the North Atlantic. \n\nSo far, so bizarre. But almost as shocking is what goes into everyday, big brand ice cream and, even more surprising, what is left out. Let’s take a look at a Magnum, the UK’s top-selling ‘hand-held’ ice cream brand. \n\nIn Britain, we eat more than 100 million each year and it is ‘the pinnacle of indulgence in ice cream’, according to its manufacturers who promote it with dreamy, sensual, images. \n\nYet for all the emphasis on luxury, one thing is conspicuous by its absence from the ingredients: cream — and even, in many cases, fresh milk. According to Unilever, this omission is actually to save us from ourselves. ‘It’s in line with our policy on removing saturated fats,’ explains a straight-faced spokeswoman. \n\nA supermarket buyer is perhaps more candid. ‘Taking cream out of ice cream is actually quite normal,’ she says. \n\n‘You can now buy a two-litre tub of soft scoop for less than a pound. Don’t forget there’s 17.5 per cent VAT on that, and the store needs to take a profit of 25-30 per cent. If you also take away the cost of the lid and the tub, you’d think there was hardly anything left for the ice cream makers.’ \n\nSo if there’s no money to spare for fresh cream, what is in it? \n\nThe whipped ice cream squirted out of a nozzle to make the cones which you buy from an ice cream van, used to contain pig fat or lard. Today, filling ice cream with commercial vegetable oils is a common practice. \n\nVirtually all basic supermarket lines from own-brand soft scoop to Carte d’Or rely heavily on it. ‘A lot of people don’t realise that. It’s quite scary,’ admits a spokeswoman for Richmond Foods, who manufacture ice cream for Tesco, Waitrose, Asda, Morrisons, Sainsbury’s and M&amp;S. \n\nShe explains that the most common vegetable fats in ices produced by Richmond Foods come from coconuts, and the fruit of the oil palm tree. (Magnums, like other Unilever frozen desserts, utilise corn and rape seed oil.) \n\nThe oil palm is a tropical plant now farmed so extensively that, according to Friends Of The Earth, its plantations are ‘the most significant cause of rainforest loss in Malaysia and Indonesia’. \n\nThe oil is not only industrially cheap, it is also unhealthy. Used in margarines, lipstick and detergents, this yellow liquid is high in saturated fat, a known cause of cardiovascular problems. \n\nThe amount of dairy produce an ice cream must contain in order legally to qualify for the name is appallingly low. The FSA requires ‘dairy ice cream’ to have a minimum of 2.5 per cent of milk protein and an additional minimum 5 per cent of dairy fat. That’s all. \n\nThe only good news is that in ‘dairy ice cream’ vegetable fat is not allowed. But this is not the case with anything labelled simply ‘ice cream’. \n\nHere, the product is merely required to contain 2.5 per cent milk protein and 5 per cent of any kind of fat. This rarely comes from any fresh ingredient. Partially reconstituted skimmed milk is one source. Another is whey solids. \n\n‘Whey is the liquid left over when milk is turned into cheese,’ explains Ian Tokelove, of the Food Commission. ‘It is produced in vast quantities by the dairy industry.’ \n\nA hugely problematic waste product, whey was for years dumped into rivers, or discharged into the sea. \n\nDried out to a pale green powder for ease of storage and transportation, it now acts as an exceedingly cheap protein carrier and sweetener, although sometimes even the sugar is taken out to be repackaged and resold. \n\nAll of these vegetable fats and milk-based products are what the industry, with refreshing honesty, refers to as ‘bulking agents’ or ‘fillers’ — cheap ways of adding volume but not cost to the ice cream. \n\nThere is one more: thin air. Ice cream is sold by volume, not weight, so a way of making it go further is to whip as much air into the mixture as possible before freezing it into plastic tubs. \n\nThe bland bulk of this mix is then titivated with a slew of other unappealing extras. There are the colourings, often referred to by name, because, like annatto, they often sound pretty, rather than E number (in this case, E160b). \n\nIt is used in place of the controversial colouring tartrazine (E102) to tint the mixture to something that more closely resembles the rich colours we associate with clotted cream. The Hyperactive Children’s Support Group considers it to be an allergen. \n\nEmulsifiers such as ‘diglycerides of fatty acids’ prevent the fat and water content separating into a greasy puddle. \n\nMeanwhile, stabilisers are often derived from seaweed. \n\nPerhaps most worrying is the flavouring. Manufacturers are coy about revealing how they have achieved a specific taste, passing off goodness knows what in the ingredient list under the meaningless catch-all ‘flavouring’. \n\nIf you hope for an ice cream whose taste relates in some intelligible way to the words on the carton, it also pays to be label aware. \n\nProducers can use pictures of fruit on the label or tub only if the ice cream actually has some real fruit (as opposed to synthetic flavouring) in it. Anything marked ‘raspberry-flavoured’ ice cream, however, has probably never seen a raspberry in its life. \n\nSuddenly, the rousing jangle of the ice cream man’s van doesn’t seem quite as appealing. \n\n\n\n\nTesco Vanilla Flavour \nSoft Scoop Ice cream 74p for 2 litres \nDescription: Vanilla flavour soft scoop. \n\nWhat it actually is: ‘Partially reconstituted lactose reduced whey protein concentrate (from milk), sugar, vegetable oil and hydrogenated vegetable oil, dextrose, whey powder, emulsifier: mono and diglycerides of fatty acids, stabilisers (guar gum, sodium alginate), flavourings, colours (curcumin, anatto).’ \n\nNo mention of vanilla pods — and that’s because vanilla hasn’t been anywhere near this ‘vanilla flavour’ ice cream. \n\nInstead, the vanilla is a synthetically produced chemical identical to real vanilla but produced in a lab. \n\nJoanna Blythman, author of Bad Food Britain, says: This really is a low-grade product. \n\nSoft scoop is always bad news, it basically means poor ice cream. This doesn’t have any real anything, it’s just a water-sugar oily bulk held together by starches. At least they are using natural colours, though. \n\nTaste: Throw some sugar on the floor, sprinkle over some water, lick it off and you have the taste of this ice cream. \n\n\n\nTesco Cherrylicious Ice cream \n£1.59 for one litre \nDescription: Vanilla flavoured ice cream with cherry sauce and glace cherries. \n\nWhat it actually is: Made using the usual culprits of reconstituted skimmed milk powder and vegetable fat, all laced with a bright-red gloop which contains modified maize starch. \n\n‘The food industry loves starch,’ says the Food Commission’s Ian Tokelove. ‘It’s very cheap and a great way to bulk out whatever product they are making. \n\nUsed in all sorts of processed foods from ready meals to children’s yoghurts, nutritionally all it adds to a product are calories.’ \n\nJoanna says: This does contain cherries but the word ‘flavourings’ also makes an appearance in the ingredient list, and unless the word ‘natural’ appears in front of ‘flavouring’ then it’s definitely a synthetic chemical flavouring. \n\nTaste: On balance it’s probably a good thing that the cheap cherry-chew-tasting sauce blots out any other taste. \n\n\n\nM&amp;S Soft Scoop vanilla ice cream \n£1.49 for one litre \nDescription: Made in Cornwall using fresh milk and vanilla extract. \n\nWhat it actually is: Despite the ‘fresh milk’ tag on the front of the box, and the fact that it contains 66 per cent skimmed milk, we still don’t avoid an oily dollop of vegetable fat — in this case, coconut oil. \n\nJoanna says: What is coconut oil doing in ice cream? The ingredients should only be milk, eggs, cream sugar and then perhaps fruit, nuts, vanilla, chocolate. \n\nTaste: Better than the rest, it has some creamyness. \n\n\n\nThe Skinny Cow 4 Strawberry Sticks \n£1.99 for a pack of four \nDescription: Great taste low fat strawberry sticks. What it actually is: This low-calorie, low-fat product is so far removed from the dairy it is not even allowed to call itself ice cream. \n\nIts key ingredient is inulin, a plant fibre extracted from chicory root that ‘absorbs water and forms a gel within the product that gives a smooth texture that mimics a fat,’ explains a spokeswoman. \n\nInulin has the very helpful — to dieters — property of passing straight through the human gut almost without being digested. \n\nJoanna says: Personally I think low-fat iced desserts are a stupid idea. Why bother with something like this? \n\nThere’s just no point. \n\nTaste: Soft and claggy, then disappears rather than melts in the mouth in a very unnerving way. The texture is reminiscent of damp cotton wool. \n\n\n\nHaagen Dazs Belgian Chocolate\n£3.79 for 500ml \nDescription: The deepest, darkest, most delicious chocolate ice cream in its smoothest form. \n\nWhat it actually is: A mixture of fresh cream, skimmed milk, dark Belgian chocolate, sugar, chocolate chunk with vegetable oil, egg yolk, cocoa (processed with alkali), natural flavouring: vanilla. \n\nJoanna says: The chocolate aside, the ice cream has the ingredients you’d hope for — the classic cream, sugar and eggs. \n\nTaste: Creamy and firm-textured. It’s noticeable that this doesn’t coat your tongue with an oily film, like some of the soft scoops. \n\n\n\nWall’s Viennetta Vanilla \n£1.19 for 650ml \nDescription: Smooth vanilla flavour ice cream between crisp chocolate flavour layers. \n\nWhat it actually is: Again, made with reconstituted rather than fresh skimmed milk — and the second ingredient on the list is water. The third is sugar, which some ice cream makers consider to be just another cheap ‘filler’. \n\nJoanna says: No ice cream should ever have water in it. If it’s made with water then it ought to be a sorbet. All these are very cheap ingredients. \n\nThe profit margin must be stratospheric. What strikes me is how old a lot of these ingredients could be — none even need refrigeration. \n\nTaste: Sweet and empty. Like eating frozen cardboard. \n\n\n\nGreen &amp; Black’s Organic Vanilla Caramel Nut \n£3.79 for 500ml \nDescription: Made with fresh cream, a swirl of caramel and crunchy hazelnut. \n\nWhat it actually is: Full of organic ingredients from the whole milk to the whipped and double cream and eggs. There is some tapioca starch in the sauce but probably simply for consistency. There are stabilisers, too, but at least they are natural. \n\nThe flavourings are the real thing. Joanna says: A marked improvement between these and the cheaper ice creams. \n\nTaste: Good, though not the best. The caramel nut chunks work well with the vanilla. \n\n\n\nBen &amp; Jerry’s Phish Food \n£3.79 for 500ml \nDescription: Chocolate ice cream marshmallow, caramel &amp; Chocolatey chunks. \n\nWhat it actually is: The ingredient list is enormous but that’s largely on account of all the chunky extras. \n\nCream is top of the list, followed by marshmallow (15.5 per cent) and then, strangely, water. The chocolate chunks contain coconut oil. Joanna says: Noticeably better then many cheaper brands. \n\nTaste: Hell-o. Rich and sweet but then quite overwhelming, actually, what with all those sugary additions. \n\n\n\nHill Station Mango &amp; Lime Ice Cream \n£3.95 for 500ml \nDescription: We were bored by sugary big-company concotions and we wanted something better. \n\nWhat it actually is: Fresh whole milk (27%), fresh double cream (23%), mango puree (21%), sugar, egg yolk, skimmed milk powder, lime puree (4%). \n\nJoanna says: The premium brands are using noticeably better ingredients. Note how the flavours come directly from fruit, with nothing added. \n\nTaste: Tingly taste of fresh mango with a dash of lime. One of the best. Please can I have some more? \n\n\n Add your comment | View all Reader comments (14)','',0,'QA==','l511espb',1,0,'',977,0,0),(10988,1134,27,977,0,'81.159.1.59',1154172671,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.uncaged.co.uk/\">http://www.uncaged.co.uk/</a><!-- m -->  have a list of most P&amp;G products\n[img:29jjo8bn]http&#58;//www&#46;uncaged&#46;co&#46;uk/images/angelpg&#46;jpg[/img:29jjo8bn]','',0,'CA==','29jjo8bn',1,0,'',977,0,0),(11000,457,12,978,0,'62.252.224.19',1154221750,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','This Woman is crazy! Quote - &quot;You Don\'t Get Many Working Class Vegetarians&quot; Really? Is that because you don\'t actaully know any working class people? Silly Woman! I think the case a lot of these misguided idiots miss is that for most of us being a vegetarian comes naturally to us! \n\nI was brought up on death by my parents, I was nine years old before I put 2 and 2 together and stopped eating meat. I often feel that when my cognition of what I was doing kicked in so did my will to oppose my parents and stop eating animals immediately. I actually wrote a piece of poetry when I was 9 vowing to never eat animals again, which I cherish to this day and abide by. My point is I could make that choice at 9 years old. I never missed meat, and have no desire to eat it again - whatsoever. Strange too then that I\'m a working class dude for my sins. \n\nI must admit I might be working class - BUT I do feel a better person than a meateater - meateaters in my mind are VERY ignorant people. I personally feel being a vegetarian in this day and age is essential and certainly something GOOD to be. \n\nI am proud that I made such a decision so early on, though it still annoys me to think for 9 years my stomach was a cemetary!\n\nTo all you veggie parents out there - good on you. I guess there will always be bad cases such as the one mentioned here however, I know for a fact 99.99999% of parents doing this thing will be well informed and making good choices for their children.\n\nWell that\'s me done wittering on <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nTol.','',0,'CA==','34fanyan',1,0,'',978,0,0),(11002,1317,3,554,0,'66.130.197.2',1154230847,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Ann,\n\nHad enough?','',0,'CA==','12hcchne',1,0,'',554,0,0),(11010,1317,3,824,0,'143.238.235.178',1154280970,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Midnightrider&quot;:57wp25tt]Heres my opinion.   Ok - I know everybody is going to hate me for this. \nFirst everybody knows im not fond of industrial slaughterhouses- Guess ive had too much time around them.But as you all know ive grown and killed my own meat for years. I know whats im eating that way.\nI dont buy meat from the grocer because it just dosent taste the same to me.\n As for lab grown meat- absolutely NOT- . In my opinion growing meat in a lab like that is playing God.  \n Lab grown meat in no way appeals to me. It just dosent seem right. \n But thats just my opinion.[/quote:57wp25tt]\n\nEating lab grown meat that is free of causing death and pain to a living being just doesn\'t seem right, but eating meat that does is o.k? <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->\n\nAs for playing God, we\'ve been doing it for years. Every time a doctor performs surgery or prescribes medicine they\'re playing God.\n\nPersonally, I\'ve become so accustomed to and enjoy my vegan diet, that I would have no reason to eat this stuff and from what I\'ve seen on this and other AR/vegan sites, most would concurr. Where it would really shine would be in the reduction of the suffering of factory farming and the resulting environmental imapct. \n\nNow we just need to mass produce the stuff and encourage meat eaters to try it! (is that your hand up, Midnight?) <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'gA==','57wp25tt',1,0,'',824,0,0),(11013,1317,3,554,0,'66.130.197.2',1154282317,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','If we agree to start eating lab grown meat it gives meat eaters just one more thing to use:\n\n&quot;see: ya can\'t live without it!!!&quot;\n\nNo thanks.','',0,'gA==','2lqee7se',1,0,'',554,0,0),(11019,1317,3,488,0,'64.12.116.199',1154294210,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Like I said- the above statement is just my opnion- Everybody has one.\n as for the meat- ill keep getting mine from animals I raise.\n The only way I would try it was if somebody tricked me-- then id be pissed when i found out what it was.\n I cant get past the Morality of it.','',0,'gA==','27mggbur',1,0,'',488,0,0),(11070,577,13,999,0,'68.198.217.101',1154568587,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;discolisious&quot;:zheq41a2]Even if they do get arrested won\'t that cause a big enough commotion to scare away the \'game\'?[/quote:zheq41a2]\n\nitll scare the game towards the hunters they helped me shoot a few deer last year so the protesers dont help the animals','',0,'gA==','zheq41a2',1,0,'',999,0,0),(11075,422,13,999,0,'68.198.217.101',1154569657,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','how are they stupid for disagree with you? because most the arguments that PETA tells me are indeed false and made up to make me look like a horrible person. im not puttng any one down but god some people need to grow up','',0,'gA==','f94ufiuz',1,0,'',999,0,0),(11078,237,22,968,0,'212.76.37.176',1154571458,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I believe in heaven for animals-one perfect world after life-most animals suffering on earth so there is peace and fun=no sorrow <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: -->','',0,'gA==','tmjbvhlh',1,0,'',968,0,0),(11079,422,13,2,0,'211.195.73.197',1154576145,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','simple logic','There is nothing complex or false about the simple logic of AR philosophy that states &quot;Many animals feel pain and suffer, and it is immoral for anyone to delibrately cause pain and suffering unless there life is in danger.\n\nRead the FAQs and presentations of this logic. It\'s mandatory reading for forum members. You don\'t have to agree with any of the answers, but we don\'t want to repeat them. Debate any of them if you would like.','',0,'gA==','13lkzig0',1,0,'',2,0,0),(11080,422,13,999,0,'68.198.217.101',1154579687,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: simple logic','[quote=&quot;AnnB&quot;:x76yspgn]There is nothing complex or false about the simple logic of AR philosophy that states &quot;Many animals feel pain and suffer, and it is immoral for anyone to delibrately cause pain and suffering unless there life is in danger.\n\nRead the FAQs and presentations of this logic. It\'s mandatory reading for forum members. You don\'t have to agree with any of the answers, but we don\'t want to repeat them. Debate any of them if you would like.[/quote:x76yspgn]\n\nim not sayin that their all wrong only the majority of the BS they give me is','',0,'gA==','x76yspgn',1,0,'',999,0,0),(11081,422,13,2,0,'211.195.73.197',1154583024,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','this forum','Please be specific when criticizing anything. Give logical reasons for the criticism. This applies to everyone. While we may overlook an occasional vague comment such as &quot;the world sucks&quot; we expect logical, well thought out reasons for anything related to animal rights, pro or con. Saying that something is &quot;full of BS&quot; is vague.\n\nFrankly, we get too many posters who want to repeat over and over their agenda, without any reasoning. It is not acceptable.\n\nYou can, however, say anything you want in the &quot;open&quot; section under a topic that YOU start. But please don\'t interject remarks in anyone else\'s thread unless you have data to support them.','',0,'gA==','zcgn5aoz',1,0,'',2,0,0),(11088,422,13,999,0,'68.198.217.101',1154616854,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: this forum','okay then....some BS PETA gives me is how i am equall to a rat. which is not true. PETA also tells me hunting is going to whipe out all of the enviorment which is also false. and they do tell me i am going to hell for eating meat. i really hope people here are more opened minded than the peta website. because it sucked there. i got banned because i had a post asking if i was a really bad person and some girl got into it with my. whished i died so i told her to back off and i was banned. but this board does look alot more logical than they were.','',0,'gA==','2myfu9kx',1,0,'',999,0,0),(11092,422,13,2,0,'218.155.118.192',1154633077,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','you have made false statements','You have made false statements. They are so glaringly false that if they were presented in either a court of law or court of logic they would be thrown out. We don\'t have time to debate with folks who don\'t deal honestly with facts. If you disagree, then please show us on the PETA website where you are correct. I will tell you briefly what we know:\n\n[quote:2azybnol]okay then....some BS PETA gives me is how i am equall to a rat. which is not true.[/quote:2azybnol]\n\nIngrid Newkirk has said that &quot;When it comes a central nervous system, a rat is a boy is a pig&quot;. This is referring to one\'s ability to feel pain. Most animal rights advocates recognize that the value of a life is based on many factors, and feeling pain is only one of them. \n\n [quote:2azybnol]PETA also tells me hunting is going to whipe out all of the enviorment which is also false. and they do tell me i am going to hell for eating meat.[/quote:2azybnol]\n\nI seriously doubt anyone in the animal rights movement, including PETA, makes any reference to heaven or hell. Please defend this claim. And if you read the FAQs on PETA or this website, you know that the problem with hunting is not wiping out the environment.\n\n[quote:2azybnol] i really hope people here are more opened minded than the peta website. because it sucked there. i got banned because i had a post asking if i was a really bad person and some girl got into it with my. whished i died so i told her to back off and i was banned. but this board does look alot more logical than they were.[/quote:2azybnol]\n\nWe accept any logic. We don\'t tolerate either side of a debate making false or exaggerated claim. There is a term in logic called &quot;straw man&quot; which is when someone argues against the most extreme version of an opponents position as if it were their main position. It\'s called a logical fallasy.\n\nYou have misrepresented PETA\'s positions and argued against them. Not acceptable.','',0,'gA==','2azybnol',1,0,'',2,0,0),(11093,422,13,554,0,'66.130.197.2',1154648248,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Duckhunter:\n\nIn case you didn\'t understand:\n\nYou made stuff up and then made your argument.   <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: --> \n\nAnd your dog is lovely, but the rest of the photo is nasty, and I think, only there for shock value.','',0,'gA==','rvu8uq6q',1,0,'',554,0,0),(11097,422,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1154652355,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Duckhunter,\n\nIn the future try not to confuse chat boards with the actual organization. People who do not run PETA use those boards and sometimes may make an irrational commet but you cannot make blatant decisions on all ARA from a few that may have said something to the respect of you will burn in hell or whatever shit you said that they said. There are idiots in evry genre of life including ARA\'s.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','g2fmcz5v',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11105,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1154655327,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I guess this depends on the hunt disrupter. What happens when someone dresses in fatigues and fills ballons with oil and slams them at people and guns and sometimes hits them????\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1u83hfgr',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11113,577,13,980,0,'80.189.31.181',1154687336,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I guess, dog food and anisees sweets arnt used anymore....','',0,'gA==','8h4dh6hn',1,0,'',980,0,0),(11119,422,13,171,0,'216.26.202.61',1154724150,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','The reason most people only know about the second part of Ingrid\'s quote and not the first part is because of CCF. CCF only quoted the second part on purpose to make PETA look bad and spread that around.\n\nOh, and the full quote is as follows:\n[b:119h7mxc]&quot;When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.&quot;[/b:119h7mxc]\n\nShe is not saying you are equal to a rat. She is saying that both of you have a CNS, feel pain, hunger, and thirst. Can you disprove that?','',0,'QA==','119h7mxc',1,0,'',171,0,0),(11120,844,5,171,0,'216.26.202.61',1154726236,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I only seen a full fur coat twice. The first time I was in a parked car, and the woman was getting in her coat. I yelled out the window, &quot;Nice dead animal!&quot; I should have said something better, but that was my first time and I was really nervous, so I blurted that out.\n\nThe second time was in a mall, and I said &quot;if that\'s real fur, that\'s really disgusting&quot; and had a disgusted look on my face.\n\nI pass out alot of anti-fur leaflets/cards too.\n\nI was always against wearing fur, my whole life. My parents are against it too. I view furwearers as cruel, ignorant, somewhat cold-hearted people, because they KNOW animals die JUST for that. It\'s not a secret.\n\nThe last float of our Canada Day parade was a bunch of people waving animal pelts around and waving, &quot;celebrating the spirit of the fur trade&quot;. I expressed my disgust quite loudly, and quite a few people heard me.','',0,'QA==','2p2jlctd',1,0,'',171,0,0),(11137,457,12,77,0,'68.64.130.204',1154794294,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','&quot;Would they be happy allowing mosquitoes to spread malaria, or having rats run loose in their home?&quot;\n\n....My boys always have the run of the house when I\'m home to make sure they don\'t get into anything.\n\nI just can\'t argue with people like that anymore. It makes me sick, trying to get through their thick heads. The time for talk has passed. Now is the time for action. Is she doesn\'t like it, she can tote her prissy little ass somewhere else.','',0,'QA==','1ssedvg4',1,0,'',77,0,0),(11138,457,12,77,0,'68.64.130.204',1154794451,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','&quot;I must admit I might be working class - BUT I do feel a better person than a meateater - meateaters in my mind are VERY ignorant people.&quot;\n\nAnd wouldn\'t anyone feel a better person than a Nazi? They don\'t stop to think about things like that.','',0,'QA==','14tt87z3',1,0,'',77,0,0),(11146,1186,16,978,0,'62.252.224.19',1154816145,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Lying IAMS Bastards!','I told IAMS what I thought of them after visiting iamscruelty and received a standard reply referring to their AIMStruths part of their website which shows a world of compassion. \n\nIf you look further into this though as I have, It becomes plainly obvious that IAMS are downright liars and are still conducting painful experiments in the name of profit... Hardly surprising given who their parent company are though! \n\nI am currently trying to educate all manner of people in my area (shops kennels vets etc etc) about the frankenstein hell that this product actually is. IAMS claim those poor dogs in the PETA video on IAMScruelty were nothing to do with them, whether that is true or not I don\'t know. What I do know is it\'s a fucking disgrace. I have seen worse but that means nothing considering the torture those poor dogs have to endure so &quot;domestic&quot; animals can live a healthier life. I\'m sure my dog would really appreciate that - NOT.','',0,'QA==','1t5abjga',1,0,'',978,0,0),(11153,936,3,430,0,'70.108.110.35',1154832096,1,0,0,1,1,0,'','','I would prefer rehabilitation rather then a death sentence. I do not believe anyone is good or evil, or injust or just. As Socrates thought, no person knowingly does wrong, because if they had a  through sense that a certain act is wrong, then they would not commit that act. So I feel it moral to show animals compassion, but people that abuse animals do not have a deep sense and understanding when it comes to what they are doing imo. This is not to say I don\'t support violence if it directly saves more lives and causes less harm, but the death sentence is merely taking a life without saving a life, for someone who faces the possibility of recieving the death sentence are unable in these circumstances to harm others, and should given a chance to come to an understanding of what we think is right. Even said, I could be completely wrong, but ultimately  this is a preferable stance for me.','',0,'QA==','i7mywk8e',1,0,'',430,0,0),(11167,422,13,827,0,'68.98.113.109',1154903279,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hey duckhunter.\n\nWhat would you do if someone was a dog hunter and shot your dog, and then hung him up for display?','',0,'QA==','aha2z16k',1,0,'',827,0,0),(11176,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1154947273,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If ever get a wood stove Im geting one of them log makers.I was away from computers most of last week.Took a week off.Been spending lots of time in the creek.Its been rite hot.Im geting lots of black berrys,mators,cukes and hot peppers.I shud be getting pimentos.','',0,'QA==','3dzu1jnm',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11181,422,13,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1154974620,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','You aint equal to no rat to me,duckhunter.I got more respect for rats.','',0,'QA==','2fkocxv6',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11191,392,19,633,0,'80.3.64.12',1155003420,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;tyran the tyrant&quot;:okao6d95]i have a pet snake and i feed it live mice. it\'s pretty interesting to watch them eat (sadist, evil person ect.) any way there cages are a pain to clean and the best cage is a fish tank (depending on the size) but tell your son that theres a lot you have to do for a snake (clean the cage, give it water, clean the bowl, and carpet)[/quote:okao6d95]\n\nFeeding your snake live mice is a really stupid idea. Firstly where do you get these mice from? Unless they have been bred specially they are likely to contain parasites etc that could harm your snake, mice have also been known to attack snakes, this is NOT that uncommon.\n\nAnd not to mention its ethically unsound.','',0,'gA==','okao6d95',1,0,'',633,0,0),(11197,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155010162,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have used the newspaper roller works good. I have not used the shredded one yet but I will soon and let you know.\n\n\nKeep cool Kritter.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','10bd9ewk',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11232,422,13,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1155151908,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:wpdvmeho]You aint equal to no rat to me,duckhunter.I got more respect for rats.[/quote:wpdvmeho]\n\nI agree with you on that one. \n\nFinal note to you Duckhunter, if you want to gain the &quot;respect&quot; on this board why not show some and take those disgusting pictures off your posts??  We are ARA\'s here.','',0,'gA==','wpdvmeho',1,0,'',124,0,0),(11239,422,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155182567,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think we chased it away  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1326xaw5',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11243,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155208584,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Both my generators broke down.Ones been in the shop last 3 days.I never got to totaly charge up my batterys.System shut down this morning.Im now living without electricity.  Glad its summer.Itd be harder if it was January.I get wet in the creek,soap up on the rocks and rinse off with a 5 gallon bucket of water.Dont want to get soap in the creek.After work I do a few chores outside and read till it gets to dark to see. I use my battery powered lamps in the house.Need a new solar battery charger to bad they aint free.Most time the ones in the dumpsters are broke.\nIt aint to hard.The only thing Im reely doing without is showers and a fan.Pulling the water from the well is the bigest drain on my system.If it takes much longer geting the generator back Ill be hauling buckets of water up the hill to the house for the critters,( cats wont go down to the creek),the few plants up there,washing a few dishes.I still hav a few full buckets of rain water.But it aint to bad atall.Id like to get one of them Fred Flintstone cars.I never see any for sale.I figure they must last along time.\nHad to stop on my road yesterday cuz there was about 20 or 30 young turkeys runing round just being youngins.Its rite cool.','',0,'gA==','2bi4h9fy',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11244,1282,33,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1155217661,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','.&quot;Need a new solar battery charger to bad they aint free.Most time the ones in the dumpsters are broke.&quot;\n\n   What kind exactly do you need.....maybe I can help....\n  are you in the US or Cnada?\n\n   email me if you like...    \n<!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:keykeythepie@aol.com\">keykeythepie@aol.com</a><!-- e -->\n\nGinger in Queens NY','',0,'gA==','2osqohtg',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11245,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155224288,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Need one to charge different size flash lite batteries only cuz I use alot of batteries.I had one but it got broke.Its no big emergency.What I need the most is one of my generators working so I can charge my deep cell batteries and hav alittl bit of electricity and I will shortly.\nThank you kindly for wanting to help.','',0,'gA==','20g6ngnt',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11246,1282,33,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1155227243,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','you mean like this?\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.cetsolar.com/chargermeter.htm\">http://www.cetsolar.com/chargermeter.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','21dkvzre',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11249,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155235296,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:38xaltw8]you mean like this?\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.cetsolar.com/chargermeter.htm\">http://www.cetsolar.com/chargermeter.htm</a><!-- m -->[/quote:38xaltw8]\n\n\n\nWow,thats a nice one.Yeah,I do beleev thatd be good to hav with all the batterys I use.','',0,'gA==','38xaltw8',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11251,1282,33,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1155237337,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Wow,thats a nice one.Yeah,I do beleev thatd be good to hav with all the batterys I use.\n***************************\n   I really admire you living off the grid and all. My husband &amp; I tried it back in the 70ies........but well.......it wasn\'t for us. We got too homesick\nfor NYC.\n\n    Anyway......I\'m too old for that now.....but if you need that battery thing\nI\'d be glad to have them send it to you......if you\'re in the US...don\'t think they ship to Canada. \n\n     But either way....nice meeting you. I\'ve read a lot of your posts &amp;\nagree. I\'m 100 % behind the ALF......vegan.......respect for all creatures.\n\n     Email me if I can help\nGinger in Queens   <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:keykeythepie@aol.com\">keykeythepie@aol.com</a><!-- e -->','',0,'gA==','dot7wqqx',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11277,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155272723,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That is an awesome site and one I am definately saving. \n\nThis is not exactly an off grid item but it is my latest simple toy.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item56107.aspx\">http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item56107.aspx</a><!-- m -->\n\nIt is battery operated and is way safer than soy candles in a power outage.\n\nFair warning the site is not that great bu they are an honest company I have previously purchased from them.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2fqu0rtu',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11280,844,5,19,0,'24.12.87.167',1155273082,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','OMG Veganangel, I just laughed so hard I cried.  That was a good remark.','',0,'gA==','18eeo8ns',1,0,'',19,0,0),(11282,844,5,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155273440,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I really am an instigator at heart.\n\nVeganAngel_RI(with devils horns)','',0,'gA==','296kfftm',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11296,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155293394,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','My husband &amp; I tried it back in the 70ies........but well.......it wasn\'t for us. We got too homesick\nfor NYC.\n\n    Anyway......I\'m too old for that now.....but if you need that battery thing\nI\'d be glad to have them send it to you......if you\'re in the US...don\'t think they ship to Canada. \n\n     But either way....nice meeting you. I\'ve read a lot of your posts &amp;\nagree. I\'m 100 % behind the ALF......vegan.......respect for all creatures.\n\n     Email me if I can help\nGinger in Queens   <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:keykeythepie@aol.com\">keykeythepie@aol.com</a><!-- e -->[/quote]\n\n\nIm in the US.Just had a birthday,geting older all the time.I hope my posts wert to hard to understand.Aint to sure if I make good sense.\n Couldnt live any other way then I do.Some folks think Im crazy but there alowed.Its reel nice meeting you too.Glad you out there.','',0,'','34cil5qe',1,1155896690,'',454,2,0),(11297,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155293530,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:75b6rgmo]That is an awesome site and one I am definately saving. \n\nThis is not exactly an off grid item but it is my latest simple toy.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item56107.aspx\">http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item56107.aspx</a><!-- m -->\n\nIt is battery operated and is way safer than soy candles in a power outage.\n\nFair warning the site is not that great bu they are an honest company I have previously purchased from them.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:75b6rgmo]\n\n\n\n\nHey Angel       It is a good site thanks.I do beleev Im geting that lantern.It dont seem to xpensive.','',0,'gA==','75b6rgmo',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11301,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155302939,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeah its fairly good but for some reason they are prone to not finding their links. Decent stuff though but it is mixed in with lots of cheap plastic crap. When my jeep lamps come in I will tell you how they run I just ordered them yesterday should be about 10 days before I get them.\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3i1i5623',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11324,936,3,638,0,'213.67.152.19',1155340838,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;carry on&quot;:3ho1udu1]I would prefer rehabilitation rather then a death sentence. I do not believe anyone is good or evil, or injust or just. As Socrates thought, no person knowingly does wrong, because if they had a  through sense that a certain act is wrong, then they would not commit that act. So I feel it moral to show animals compassion, but people that abuse animals do not have a deep sense and understanding when it comes to what they are doing imo. This is not to say I don\'t support violence if it directly saves more lives and causes less harm, but the death sentence is merely taking a life without saving a life, for someone who faces the possibility of recieving the death sentence are unable in these circumstances to harm others, and should given a chance to come to an understanding of what we think is right. Even said, I could be completely wrong, but ultimately  this is a preferable stance for me.[/quote:3ho1udu1]\n\nI dont mean to be rude towards your thoughts in any way and i am sorry if you take it that way..but do you even know who Brian Cass is?Trust me that piece of shit is VERY much aware of what he is doing he just dont care..The history is full of people like him, Hitler being the most &quot;prominent&quot; of the lot..so far..\n\nAnd i dont quite understand that part about the death sentence is taking a life without saving one?If we would be able to inflict the death sentence on Cass and his equals round the world..just imagine how many lives that would save..then again,its late at night here in Sweden and i might get you wrong...;)\n\nI honestly belive that if we TRULY are going to see some standing results we have to turn up the violence a notch or 10. I am all for the beautiful thoughts that many have about a world where we somehow can rehabilitate animalabusers and people that profits from the torture our wonderful friends endure every single second..BUT i think it is very,very important to realize that as there of course are people that we can change through information and pleading to their hearts there most certainly are people that dont give a shit and never,ever will..people that are sadistic,moneyhungering scum (yes, im talking about you again Cass,you motherf**er) and the only way we will ever stop them is by smacking them up..in the worst way,so that their followers get the message..\nWe who write here are all compassionate, warm, feeling human beeings, and of course we all want the rest of the world to have the ability to feel as we do..but as i said we must NEVER loose grip of the fact that sometimes extreme violence towards animals must be met with the same violence..Sometimes we must close our compassionate hearts and be the warriors our wonderful friends so desperatly need!!\n\nWhen it comes to many of the abusing scum that continues each and every day to torment,poison and kill our friends, the time for talking to them is over..time to smack their fu**ing heads in..one by one..\nI am not even letting off steam now, this is my heart talking an this is my utmost belief in how we must act if we ever are going to shut these assholes down for good..Time to bring the torture and pain to them, time to make them fear for their lives, time to once and for all show them that there are those of us that have NO problem in giving them the hell they inflict right back to them and that they have every reason in the world to look for other careers if they treasure their health..\nLike it says on one of my t-shirts &quot;A little prisontime is nothing compared to what happens to the animals in the labs...&quot;this is so true...\nTake them OUT!\nDont EVER forget what they do to our friends every single day we let them..\nSorry,needed to get that of my chest...','',0,'gA==','3ho1udu1',1,0,'',638,0,0),(11326,936,3,19,0,'24.12.87.167',1155341175,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','*applause for Daddy Balloo\'s statement*','',0,'gA==','2vhbbg90',1,0,'',19,0,0),(11332,936,3,369,0,'151.200.22.63',1155343403,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:12uxe8sz]\n\nI dont mean to be rude towards your thoughts in any way and i am sorry if you take it that way..but do you even know who Brian Cass is?Trust me that piece of shit is VERY much aware of what he is doing he just dont care..The history is full of people like him, Hitler being the most &quot;prominent&quot; of the lot..so far..\n\nAnd i dont quite understand that part about the death sentence is taking a life without saving one?If we would be able to inflict the death sentence on Cass and his equals round the world..just imagine how many lives that would save..then again,its late at night here in Sweden and i might get you wrong...;)\n\nI honestly belive that if we TRULY are going to see some standing results we have to turn up the violence a notch or 10. I am all for the beautiful thoughts that many have about a world where we somehow can rehabilitate animalabusers and people that profits from the torture our wonderful friends endure every single second..BUT i think it is very,very important to realize that as there of course are people that we can change through information and pleading to their hearts there most certainly are people that dont give a shit and never,ever will..people that are sadistic,moneyhungering scum (yes, im talking about you again Cass,you motherf**er) and the only way we will ever stop them is by smacking them up..in the worst way,so that their followers get the message..\nWe who write here are all compassionate, warm, feeling human beeings, and of course we all want the rest of the world to have the ability to feel as we do..but as i said we must NEVER loose grip of the fact that sometimes extreme violence towards animals must be met with the same violence..Sometimes we must close our compassionate hearts and be the warriors our wonderful friends so desperatly need!!\n\nWhen it comes to many of the abusing scum that continues each and every day to torment,poison and kill our friends, the time for talking to them is over..time to smack their fu**ing heads in..one by one..\nI am not even letting off steam now, this is my heart talking an this is my utmost belief in how we must act if we ever are going to shut these assholes down for good..Time to bring the torture and pain to them, time to make them fear for their lives, time to once and for all show them that there are those of us that have NO problem in giving them the hell they inflict right back to them and that they have every reason in the world to look for other careers if they treasure their health..\nLike it says on one of my t-shirts &quot;A little prisontime is nothing compared to what happens to the animals in the labs...&quot;this is so true...\nTake them OUT!\nDont EVER forget what they do to our friends every single day we let them..\nSorry,needed to get that of my chest...[/quote:12uxe8sz]\n\n\nI think Carry On has some points. Tom Regan, a firm believer and activists in the animal rights movement, use to be a butcher and opponent of our movement. Jerry Vlasak(to my knowledge) use to take part in vivisection, now he is a huge proponent of animal rights. If we use your tactics we would kill people who very well could come to the conclusion that what they do is wrong, even Cass.\n\n\n     Now I\'m not saying we wait and do nothing, because I know the animals don\'t have the time, but  to start assassinating people like cass, while our movement is still small and young could possibly crush the  progress we have struggled for so far.   Open liberations, and property damage combined with facts, boycotts and a preached message is the most pragmatic stance in the present.','',0,'gA==','12uxe8sz',1,0,'',369,0,0),(11337,936,3,171,0,'216.211.51.178',1155351777,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I also don\'t believe in the death penalty. I don\'t believe in &quot;revenge&quot;. I just want to see harmful people prevented from doing harm. Not to get even with them.','',0,'gA==','33psiyjc',1,0,'',171,0,0),(11342,69,14,1031,0,'210.246.40.236',1155355371,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','pamela','i always thought pamela was a stupid bimbo...i guess not!','',0,'gA==','1gidq3zk',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(11354,1433,29,1,0,'82.37.138.251',1155371578,1,0,1,1,1,1,'12','&quot;Earthlings&quot; - 2006 Pro-Animal Rights Documentary','Anyone seen this? What do you think?\n\n[quote:1ligxj7b][b:1ligxj7b]&quot;Earthlings&quot;[/b:1ligxj7b] - 2006 Pro-Animal Rights Documentary - [url=http&#58;//en&#46;wikipedia&#46;org/wiki/Joaquin_Phoenix#Film_career:1ligxj7b]Joaquin Phoenix[/url:1ligxj7b] (Vegetarian and Vegan [b:1ligxj7b][url=http&#58;//www&#46;viva&#46;org&#46;uk/celebs/fulllist&#46;html:1ligxj7b][1][/url:1ligxj7b][/b:1ligxj7b]  and star of [i:1ligxj7b][url=http&#58;//en&#46;wikipedia&#46;org/wiki/The_Village_%28film%29:1ligxj7b]The Village[/url:1ligxj7b][/i:1ligxj7b]) narrates this thought-provoking documentary, exposing mankind\'s unnecessary and cruel dependence on animals as food, clothing, entertainment, and experimentation. &quot;Earthlings&quot; is the most comprehensive documentary ever produced on the correlation between humankind, nature, and animals and human economic interests. Using hidden cameras and never-before-seen footage, &quot;Earthlings&quot; chronicles the day-to-day practices of some of the largest animal-dependent industries in the world. A must-have for any animal rights library and to share with friends and family. Run time: 95 minutes.[/quote:1ligxj7b]\n\nJoaquin narrated the film &quot;Earthlings&quot; on behalf of PETA - a video about investigation of factory farming. He is a supporter of animal rights and active member of PETA. [url=http&#58;//www&#46;cowsarecool&#46;com/feature-joaquinwalks&#46;asp:1ligxj7b][1][/url:1ligxj7b]\n\nBuy it from PETA [url=http&#58;//www&#46;petacatalog&#46;org/prodinfo&#46;asp?number=VP546:1ligxj7b]here[/url:1ligxj7b]\nWatch it online [url=http&#58;//video&#46;google&#46;co&#46;uk/videoplay?docid=3251419433163515470&amp;q=EARTHLINGS:1ligxj7b]here[/url:1ligxj7b]\nALF entry [url=http&#58;//animalliberationfront&#46;com/Saints/Media/Earthlings&#46;htm:1ligxj7b]here[/url:1ligxj7b]','',0,'8A==','1ligxj7b',1,0,'',1,0,0),(11361,936,3,638,0,'81.225.156.1',1155413358,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Compassionate, when it comes to Jerry, do not forget his thoughts regarding taking out 5,10-15 scientists and its relevance to saving the lives of millions of animals..(a statement i give a standing ovation)As you said, he is an old vivisectionist himself and as such he most certainly knows the mentality amongst these freaks better than any of us, and he obviously have relevant thoughts that some of them will never, ever stop until they fear for their lives and/or stand the chance of being severly hurt..\n\nWhen it comes to the lousiest excuse for a human beeing on earth, Brian Cass and the thought that he would ever change regarding the fact that Jerry and Tom saw the light, sorry now and no pun intended but that is like saying that Adolf Hitler would change because some of his Campcommendants did...Have you ever seen an interview with Cass?look into his eyes, there is nothing there but pure evil..\nAlso remember the t-shirt he supposedly wears ,it says &quot;SHAC&quot; on the front but the acronym is spelt out on the back: &quot;Spongers Hypocrites Anarchists Cowards&quot;. \n\nI was not talking about killing them as much as i was saying beating them up in the worst way to send a clear message,(however in some instances death is preferable)..I am SURE that we would scare of much more sadistic scum than we would hurt those about to change..also take in to concideration the number of people that would hesitate to even take the job if they knew that a number of vivisectionists have been f**cked up for doing these evil deeds towards the animals..We can protest all we want, and of course they listen and of course there are a number of them that have a heart that reminds them each day that what they do is wrong and of course we WILL make some of them stop!...but,like i wrote..there are a number of them that laughs at our demos and truly enjoy their work..The time for talks is way over when it comes to them..\n\nIf an vivisectionist quits his job because of newfound insight and newfound respect for the animals or if he quits because he have been eating soup the last 3months after meeting the working end of my fist are both great things..as long as they STOP!!\nHe/She who quits because of ethical reasons will most certainly (as in Jerrys case) advocate AR and hopefuly someone in the same occupation will listen...chain reaction..\nHe who stops after meeting someone who thinks like me will certainly tell everybody how scared he is and how much we terrorised him..wich hopefully makes people think twice about abusing animals..chain reaction..\n\nAs long as there is vivisection and other abuse there will be vivisectionists and abusers that stop because of ethical reasons and there will be vivisectionists and other abusers that do not understand anything else but pain and fear..Its the same with us, some of us try to see good in everyone and give our utmost to make people see the light and stray away from their horrible ways...and some of us think that these people have had their chances and the time for talk is over, the time is here to put the abuse were the abuse is due..\nLike i said, of course it sadens me that it has to be this way, but sometimes we do have to close our hopes of an peaceful soloution and do whatever it takes and use whatever violence is needed to save our friends..We also need to accept our different ways to fight abuse..this is very important..\n\nThere is NO other option...\nRemember,our friends are suffering and beeing murdered as we speak...','',0,'8A==','vnx82whp',1,0,'',638,0,0),(11369,936,3,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1155425565,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hey there Daddy,\n\njust wondering,  I am assuming that at one time in your life you were a meat eater.  Not sure if you are vegan or not, but would a person been validated if someone had beaten you up or killed you just to prove a point of animal rights when you were a meat eater.\n\n\nThat kind of violence is never an answer,  get out and talk to your friends and family about your beliefs.  I can never understand that.  If someone puts a bomb in an abortion clinic and it goes off after hours and no one is injured or killed,  is that OK?  what Jerry is talking about violates the CREDO of the ALF.  \n\nDoes the Credo just apply when you want it to or dont  you believe in it at all.','',0,'8A==','2lmxthld',1,0,'',643,0,0),(11371,936,3,638,0,'195.67.203.112',1155431980,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hey there Chris, nice to meet you..<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nYes, i like everybody else was once a meateater..And i am sorry, but that question from you somewhat resembles the logic behind the &quot;burning house&quot; question, what ever i answer i will be &quot;wrong&quot;..\n\nTo even compare the ignorance and stupidity i once had when i was eating meat to the calculated murder and abuse that goes on in the labs is just plain out dumb...sorry,but thats the way i feel...\nNot sure why i should talk to my friends and family about my beliefs?are you implying that i should not express them here or?I am sorry if i offended you or anyone, that is absolutely not my intention..\nLike i said, there are those of us that belive in talk and peaceful ways to make people understand and there are those of us that belive that in order to get the message through and to get the changes done you have to use force..excessive force if need be..\n\nI fully understand your question regarding my commitment towards the ALF-credo. I fully support and honour the ALF-credo BESIDES the obvious part about no human beeing hurt..I have to be true to my beliefs and to my heart when it comes to this..it realy is an very,very serious issue and one i do not take lightly BUT i would not hesitate to inflict harm upon a person if that would mean saving the life of an animal..I have said it so many times now, some people just dont get it until they realize that their actions will get them hurt..\nYou know, i am 34 years old..i have lived a tough life many times and met a LOT of fucked up,sadistic people and if there is one thing i have learned through life it is that there is a time for talking and there is a time when words just dont cut it..sad but true..\nOf course i respect that you do not understand my point of view, but for me it is the same mystery that you dont think violence towards abusers is legitimate..\nLet me ask you a question in return:\nIf you were out walkin and you saw an big ass dude almost beating his dog to death and you shouted to him to take his hands off the poor animal and he just laughed at you..and you saw an shovel lying nearby, would you honour the credo and walk away feeling sorry for the little dog but feeling proud that you did not inflict harm upon a human animal or would you smack the shovel as hard as you could right on top of the assholes head?\n(burning house question again..right back at ya...;)\n\nYeah,i know...stupid comparison but i think you know what i mean...\n\nSometimes you have no option and sometimes humans will get hurt in my book to do the thing that is most important..saving the animals. Never EVER forget what kind of people i am talking about when i say that they need to have the hell they inflict right back at them..they dont deserve any mercy..\n\nAnd about the abortion thing, i think i answered your question..;)','',0,'8A==','kv54vh26',1,0,'',638,0,0),(11373,936,3,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1155433167,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','sorry,  i just dont believe in violence to serve a social issue.  But thanks for the answer,  was not trying to trap you by any means.  At least you are consistant','',0,'8A==','14apy3i3',1,0,'',643,0,0),(11374,936,3,638,0,'195.67.203.112',1155433878,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Like i said, we all feel in a different way..it is important though to respect eachother as we are all fighting for the same thing, some of us F-I-G-H-T-I-N-G more than others..(sorry,swedish humor... <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> )\nWhen it comes to life or death, violence is sadly an important element..\nBut that is my view and you have yours..\nWe all fight for the animals and that is what counts..\n\nNot hard to be consistant when you are speaking from the heart my friend... <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: --> \n\nAnd you are so welcome..','',0,'8A==','36hlss77',1,0,'',638,0,0),(11375,936,3,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1155435123,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','taking lives','Most people sitting at home will never face dilemmas such as those posed in the article at this link:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/FAQs/What_If.htm\">http://animalliberationfront.com/ALFron ... hat_If.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nBy rescuing only some animals, activists will face ethical dilemmas similar in nature and logic to those in the article.\n\nI suggest that anyone who says &quot;always do this&quot; or &quot;never do this&quot; without giving a specific detailed example of a marginally acceptable case should be ignored.','',0,'8A==','1hwx60rk',1,0,'',2,0,0),(11376,936,3,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1155437962,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You are right,  most people will never face any situation that is discribed on that link.  Have read before as you have said it is a pre-req for anybody posting on here to read the FAQ.  \n\nIf you are refering to my statement that social violence is never OK.  I will stand by that statement.  If someone murders or gives injury to an animal abuser then they should be charged and prosocuted.  I would feel the same of some redneck killed or injured a person in a hunting protest.  I would say charge that person with assult or murder, what ever was appropriate.  [[u:2z0y6a5z]i][b:2z0y6a5z]And I would pray for the fast recovery of that protester.[/b:2z0y6a5z][/i][/u:2z0y6a5z][/u]but that is just how I feel. \n\nHaving said that, if someone hurt my dog, just to be cruel.  I would hope that I would control myself, but if I did not,  I would expect there would be consequences for my actions.\n\n Some people just feel differently','',0,'QQ==','2z0y6a5z',1,0,'',643,0,0),(11379,936,3,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155442194,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am with you Daddy I believe it is time to kick up the violence a notch or two within reason if there is a peaceful way by all means use it but at times a good kick in the ass is needed.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QQ==','3vheaamu',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11390,1437,16,1031,0,'210.246.40.132',1155446306,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','shampoo','does anyone know a shampoo that isn\'t tested on animals?\none that is in new zealand','',0,'QQ==','2fsz8h4n',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(11395,936,3,369,0,'151.200.22.63',1155446894,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Daddy_baloo&quot;:zpqidjp9]Like i said, we all feel in a different way..it is important though to respect eachother as we are all fighting for the same thing, some of us F-I-G-H-T-I-N-G more than others..(sorry,swedish humor... <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> )\nWhen it comes to life or death, violence is sadly an important element..\nBut that is my view and you have yours..\nWe all fight for the animals and that is what counts..\n\nNot hard to be consistant when you are speaking from the heart my friend... <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: --> \n\nAnd you are so welcome..[/quote:zpqidjp9]\n\n\n    Jews who fought and killed Nazi soldiers and raided and detroyed gas chambers and so forth, were not  thought of as terrorist by many people in the world.  On the other hand, animal activists who might engage in physical violence would be widely thought of as criminals and murderers. \n \n \n\n   The key difference in each struggle is the fact that a huge majority of humans are speciesist, and therefore, to currently act in force against people could very well have devastating  effects on animals and our movement. \n\n  \n   The media already sheds a negative light on us, and if someone were to dispose of Cass, what positive effects could this possibly have on our popularity in a world where we are already unpopular? How also, could this help animals? I\'m not saying your wrong necessarily, but rather i\'m trying to understand how violence in this form could propel our movement without causing the public to hate us.  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'gA==','zpqidjp9',1,0,'',369,0,0),(11398,1438,29,1,0,'82.37.138.251',1155464874,1,0,1,1,1,1,'12','&quot;All My Heroes Still Wear Masks&quot; - ALF and HLS','Watching this now, excellent show! Your thoughts?\n\n[quote:foer4kzn][b:foer4kzn]All My Heroes Still Wear Masks: The Men and Women of the ALF and the Animals of HLS[/b:foer4kzn]\n\nAll My Heroes Still Wear Masks: The Men and Women of the ALF and the Animals of HLS is an introduction to the Animal Liberation Front with underground footage from the 1980s to the present, using the campaign against Huntingdon Life Sciences as a case study of the need for direct action.[/quote:foer4kzn]\n\nTorrent: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://torrents.rbgi.net/torrent.html?info_hash=e16aabbf744515b9cc40f0e7f8bb8231eb64dd51\">http://torrents.rbgi.net/torrent.html?i ... 31eb64dd51</a><!-- m -->','',0,'wA==','foer4kzn',1,0,'',1,0,0),(11405,1437,16,19,0,'24.12.87.167',1155472395,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','If your Mom will let you order things on line try this site:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.natures-gate.com/shop/showCategory.asp?category=130\">http://www.natures-gate.com/shop/showCa ... tegory=130</a><!-- m -->\n\nGreat products, good prices.','',0,'wA==','309d0xp7',1,0,'',19,0,0),(11409,936,3,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1155476203,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','you hit the nail on the head.  It would not help the AR cause.  Slavery and The Nazi concern humans and the vast majority of human do share a Speciest attitude.   The violence that the doctor is talking about will bring nothing but bad press and more contempt and hatred toward AR causes.\n\nsocial violence is the easy way out.  if ALF\'s causes are to be furthered then the hearts and minds of people will need to be changed.','',0,'wA==','3q8b6jg9',1,0,'',643,0,0),(11410,936,3,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1155477601,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','&quot;If someone murders or gives injury to an animal abuser then they should be charged and prosocuted.&quot;\n*********************************\n   I sure disagree with you on that, Chris, I think they should be congratulated &amp; helped to get away with it. \n   \n    But OK....what about this. You\'re walking in the woods and come across an injured animal killer.....or maybe one who\'s suffering a heart attack, do you call 911 or what?\n\n    I can tell you I wouldn\'t lift a finger to help him [or her] .......and I\'d\nactually feel very good about it........thinking of all the poor animals he\'d\nkilled or injured just to get his kicks.\n\n     But see....just walking away with a song in my heart &amp; perhaps a little happy dance....no violence on my part, so would that be acceptable?','',0,'','2lnaj94b',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11411,936,3,4,0,'70.38.73.13',1155477790,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','sorry, but you\'re naive','[quote:dl2dnsm8]The media already sheds a negative light on us, and if someone were to dispose of Cass, what positive effects could this possibly have on our popularity in a world where we are already unpopular? How also, could this help animals? I\'m not saying your wrong necessarily, but rather i\'m trying to understand how violence in this form could propel our movement without causing the public to hate us[/quote:dl2dnsm8]\n\nYou have no knowledge of history or the human condition if you think, for one moment, that the success of any social movement has ever depended on the &quot;likeability&quot; of its messengers. The success depends solely on getting the concepts through the thick skulls of the masses.\n\nIn the case of AR, most of the masses still do not realize how badly factory farm animals are routinely treated, and most still believe scientific gains are made best through vivisection. These are both false.\n\nHow could these misconceptions be changed fastest? You would need to get the public\'s attention with front page news for a month or more (in the case of the Vietnam War it took years).\n\nSadly, a strong case could be made for violence. To say that it would not be effective is to deny history. Whatever your motives are for this denial, they are not logical and not supported by any history. No movement has has ever died because the messengers were disliked. In fact, the messengers of change are usually disliked.\n\nPlease stop repeating the nonsense that violence won\'t help the cause without a relevant example. History shows otherwise, and it is not &quot;opinion&quot;.','',0,'gA==','dl2dnsm8',1,0,'',4,0,0),(11412,936,3,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1155479131,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','nope','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:34odtpok]&quot;If someone murders or gives injury to an animal abuser then they should be charged and prosocuted.&quot;\n*********************************\n   I sure disagree with you on that, Chris, I think they should be congratulated &amp; helped to get away with it. \n   \n    But OK....what about this. You\'re walking in the woods and come across an injured animal killer.....or maybe one who\'s suffering a heart attack, do you call 911 or what?\n\n    I can tell you I wouldn\'t lift a finger to help him [or her] .......and I\'d\nactually feel very good about it........thinking of all the poor animals he\'d\nkilled or injured just to get his kicks.\n\n     But see....just walking away with a song in my heart &amp; perhaps a little happy dance....no violence on my part, so would that be acceptable?[/quote:34odtpok]\n\nIn my mind,  no it would not be acceptable,  As much as I disagree with Rod Coronodo or dr. Jerry,  I would make a call to 911 and make every effort to save their life,  but that is just the value of human life that was installed in me at an early age from my parents. \n\n\nyour compassion overwhelms me,  I read somewhere about a phrase,  i think it said,  Love your enemies and you love yourself.\nPerhaps you should try to find it','',0,'gA==','34odtpok',1,0,'',643,0,0),(11414,422,13,124,0,'24.71.223.148',1155481815,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Let\'s break out the bubbly!!  Woo hoo!!   <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: --> \n\nGood riddance.','',0,'gA==','1qvx5wns',1,0,'',124,0,0),(11416,936,3,369,0,'151.200.22.63',1155486106,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: sorry, but you\'re naive','[quote:1w5y6hag]\n\nYou have no knowledge of history or the human condition if you think, for one moment, that the success of any social movement has ever depended on the &quot;likeability&quot; of its messengers. The success depends solely on getting the concepts through the thick skulls of the masses.\n\nIn the case of AR, most of the masses still do not realize how badly factory farm animals are routinely treated, and most still believe scientific gains are made best through vivisection. These are both false.\n\nHow could these misconceptions be changed fastest? You would need to get the public\'s attention with front page news for a month or more (in the case of the Vietnam War it took years).\n\nSadly, a strong case could be made for violence. To say that it would not be effective is to deny history. Whatever your motives are for this denial, they are not logical and not supported by any history. No movement has has ever died because the messengers were disliked. In fact, the messengers of change are usually disliked.\n\nPlease stop repeating the nonsense that violence won\'t help the cause without a relevant example. History shows otherwise, and it is not &quot;opinion&quot;.[/quote:1w5y6hag]\n\n  I can say this though. No other movement has dealt with the liberation of other species. Virtually all revolutions were solely a human struggle, and speciesism is the differing factor, and its a huge one at that. So what i\'m trying to say is,  that when a struggle(civil rights movement, the emancipation of women) is dealing with other humans then this makes it easier to accept. I do not admit that i\'m right and thats that, but I think the idea of animal liberation is still, unfortunately, considered a radical(in a different fashion from other movements) &quot;belief,&quot; and its too soon to start killing people imo.','',0,'gA==','1w5y6hag',1,0,'',369,0,0),(11419,936,3,638,0,'217.208.206.147',1155490214,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Chris,Chris,Chris...I am struggeling to understand you and i am honestly trying to respect your thoughts but its is getting harder and harder...\nOkay,sure..It is a good thing to try to see the good in people, and of COURSE we should try to go by the rules of the society BUT when those rules gives shelter to abusers those laws do not longer apply and like Tupelo says, the mantra about violence being a negative thing for the movement is pure noncence and until you give an valid case for it not to be noncence please do not critique for thinking otherwise as its both historicaly right and i have a NUMBER of animals live´s to prove my statement..\nI mean, c´mon...Ghandi wrote letters to Hitler &quot;Please Mr Hitler, could you please..&quot;blah,blah...Did he give a shit?sorry but smell the coffe dude..\nAnd are you for real when it comes to how you would react if someone would hurt your dog?hoping that you would restrain yourself?sorry,but that scares me...\n&quot;Please Sir, could you stop hurting my dog?&quot;\n&quot;no, fuck you...&quot;\n&quot;Oh,ok then...but please take note that i think what you are doing is wrong..&quot;\nHell, if somebody would hurt one of my kids (4 cats) i would send that f**er to another planet..for sure...\n\nRegarding the fact that you would call 911 (or 112 if you are in Sweden..<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\nto save his life is also something i do not understand..He is an animal abuser and you want to save his life even though he would be able to abuse even more animals?\nI too was raised with guidelines of respect for human life, but sometimes you need to put aside those thoughts and get to grips with reality...\n\nMy phrase would read &quot;Take out the animals enemys and you will love yourself&quot;... <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nI do not think that the danger to our movement is people like me that realizes the nececity of violence when violence is due \nI think the real danger is when people do not realize this fact and continue to be hell bent on changing some peoples minds peacefully when all they do is ignore and laugh at us...\n\nCome on, we are not talking about changing traficrules here, we are talking about saving lives and making sure abusers stop!\n\nChris, please understand that some abusers will NEVER listen to what you say, some of them make money (lots of it) doing what they do and obviously they dont have any compassion as they got in to their line of work to begin with..\nSome of them gets their rocks of hurting animals...\nWhat we need to think about is what is important...saving lives or playng by the rules..\n\nCompassionate, i think you have a point in that fact that most people would think of us as total nutters if we would turn up the violence but then again..\nWhat do these people do for the animals anyway?\nIf violence saves lifes so be it..\nFinally, about the &quot;killing Cass&quot;-issue...as far as i know, IF he was to be eliminated HLS would loose their financial securitys as they would pull out if he left HLS..and it is certainly no secret HLS kills 500 animals each day..\nDo the math..\nI think people would have no problem understanding that &quot;hit&quot; if the truth about that creep would come out and the reason behind taking him out..','',0,'gA==','10r7d9l1',1,0,'',638,0,0),(11428,936,3,510,0,'69.149.170.79',1155506155,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','&quot;...not all human beings respond to compassion and love','I agree with Tupelo.  Also,\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/A_Case_for_Direct_Action.htm\">http://animalliberationfront.com/Philos ... Action.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nMy personal thought:  It would be nice to have a group portrait of the entire board of directors of LSRI/HLS dangling from the end of a rope hanging over my fireplace.','',0,'gA==','1d4s0z7m',1,0,'',510,0,0),(11432,422,13,1023,0,'24.121.161.24',1155517175,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','?','Why the hell would he post those nasty pics of death? I have more feelings for a flea then him. He is so disgusting. Anyone who kills animals for anything, especially sport are not right in my book. I hope another hunter accidentally shoots him while he\'s attempting to murder the ducks.\n <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->','',0,'gA==','1br3vazs',1,0,'',1023,0,0),(11433,422,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155523842,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I know it is horrible, but I have a scrapbook with news articles of hunters who get killed by other hunters. Every once in a while I need a laugh. I know I\'m going to hell <!-- s:loudlaff: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/loudlaff.gif\" alt=\":loudlaff:\" title=\"loud laugh\" /><!-- s:loudlaff: --> \n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3dck17oq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11447,422,13,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155551705,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I dont beleev theres a hell but if there was you wont go there Angel.I do beleev if there was a hell it would be crowded with animal killers and torturers,sure nuff.','',0,'gA==','35fnxt8r',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11448,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155552851,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Fixed my generator.Come to find out wert nothing rong with it.It was the cable going from the generator to the house.A part of it broke and other part was just loose at the plug.Its a thick cable and took me awhile to put it back together.I was able to take a shower in my house.That theres a luxury to me.I shud get my other generator back from the shop.It needed a hed gasket.\nThe creek done got real low.I damed some of it up with small rocks so there would still be some deep places for the littl fish.Im afrad to go in the deeper places,wich I reckon come up  between my knee and waist, cuz theres lots of littl fish and mud bugs.I dont want to step on nobody.\nHad a nice weekend.Hope yall did.The best part about it was for 2 days I wasnt round no people and didnt hear no people noises.\nAnd got 7 mators out the garden.Im liking the yello ones the best.Got me a mess of basil and habeneros and my okra done took off,tell you what.\nI ate good all weekend and nobody died.','',0,'gA==','1u68mdkt',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11460,422,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155566015,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don;t really believe it either. It has just become a saying of mine cause all my coworkers tell me I am. I always respond with some sort of smart ass remark\n\nCome and see me some time, I\'ll be in the easy chair next to Satan.\n\nNo I\'m not God likes me better cause I don\'t eat his animal friends.\n\nGood if God wants me to eat meat I\'d rather go to hell.\n\nSo is everyone else think about it who is going to heaven a bunch of boring virgins who wear white so they can\'t get dirty and play harps all day. Hell is where its at sex drugs and rock and roll 24-7\n\nYou get the idea the ruder the better........\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1ao4ksiq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11461,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155566211,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Glad all is well for you Kriter. I am in a holding pattern right now.\n\n\nI have a phone appt. with a solar techie to help me put up my first solar panel Thursday I can\'t wait.\n\nWill let you know how it goes.\n\nBye For Now,\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','37kbxu80',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11472,422,13,124,0,'142.59.85.188',1155581470,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:3b7f108l]I know it is horrible, but I have a scrapbook with news articles of hunters who get killed by other hunters. Every once in a while I need a laugh. I know I\'m going to hell <!-- s:loudlaff: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/loudlaff.gif\" alt=\":loudlaff:\" title=\"loud laugh\" /><!-- s:loudlaff: --> \n\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:3b7f108l]\n\nVegan...make sure you bring your scrapbook to hell with you...we could sit down and have a few good laughs together!','',0,'gA==','3b7f108l',1,0,'',124,0,0),(11531,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155640348,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hey thats cool.Hope the day comes I can do that.\nYeah,keep me posted.','',0,'gA==','74a6y6gq',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11545,1463,3,1057,0,'70.49.213.14',1155661632,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Even if it is organic, it is still murder','i am from quebec canada, and here many &quot;meat animals&quot; breeding farms are using the organic techniques to breed the animals in a &quot;respectful way&quot;\n\nbut don\'t be fooled: it is still murder.\n\nwheter a geese is gaved by tube or by hand, it is still cruel\nwheter a sheep can freely run in the grass, its still gonna get its throat slit.\nwheter an emeu can run miles and live a peaceful life, its still gonna get killed, and eaten by its cruel breeders.\n\nso thats why i say don\'t be fooled by organic farming, still do direct actions against them and save the animals from them.\n\n(sorry for my poor english i usually speak french haha)','',0,'gA==','75fxas2n',1,0,'',1057,0,0),(11546,1317,3,1057,0,'70.49.213.14',1155662059,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','no.\nits still meat, its still gross.','',0,'gA==','8qlq451u',1,0,'',1057,0,0),(11557,844,5,1031,0,'210.246.63.208',1155676052,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don\'t even like fake fur, what that says to me is : i want to wear a dead aniimal but i can\'t afford it&quot;\nfur is disgusting','',0,'gA==','1u0mrt8t',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(11630,352,1,978,0,'62.252.224.19',1155773123,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Alien Vivisection','From the books I have read about &quot;alien abduction&quot; certain races of aliens (and there are seemingly a fair few) are only too happy to experiment on humans, it is well documented. \n\nI don\'t know if any of you have see the film &quot;Fire In The Sky&quot; about Travis Walton\'s abduction, but there are some extremely scary scenes of him actually being experimented on by aliens. In the film he is as helpless and confused as any animal tortured inside the labs of this globe. \n\nIt\'s a powerful film supposedly a true story and well worth seeing. Conditions aboard the craft he is abducted to are terrible. Interestingly, he is treat with about as much dignity as a lab animal, stored in a very strange dried out coccoon before being dragged by the feet along the floor to a primitive looking, yet technologically advanced operating table where he is subjected to many strange and bizarre tests. The first time I saw the film I drew the immediate comparison with lab animals, who I\'m only too aware are suffering right now in the hands of &quot;aliens&quot;\n\nI\'d hate to be experimented on personally but I can think of a few people I\'d like to see abducted, forever! Any aliens reading this, email me and I\'ll send you a list for next time you\'re flying this way!','',0,'gA==','3u6t8ls0',1,0,'',978,0,0),(11685,1437,16,897,0,'72.18.106.154',1155879405,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Always!\r\n\r\nI\'ve tried many brands and Jason is my favorite. They do not test on animals and all of their products are free from animal ingredients.  <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) -->\r\n\r\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.jason-natural.com/products/everyday_hair_care.php\">http://www.jason-natural.com/products/e ... r_care.php</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','ms6dbc2s',1,1196008264,'',897,1,0),(11686,69,14,897,0,'72.18.106.154',1155880933,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','To my understanding, Pam is a vegetarian and not a vegan. She does a lot for animals though I heard she served meat at her wedding reception to Kid Rock. The reception was held at a restaurant that serves meat and is owned by a friend of hers that she loaned money to open the restaurant with the condition that he not serve foie gras. It\'s ok to serve other animals but not foie gras.','',0,'gA==','2chafs4b',1,0,'',897,0,0),(11687,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155881648,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hey Kriter,\n\nGood and bad news.\n\nI got the jeep light it works good.\n\nThe shake searchlight is wonderful also.\n\nAs for the solar ughhh! I am so pissed at Real Goods. \n\n1) They were out of the original solar panel I wanted so I got a bigger one no biggie.\n\n2) The solar battery the sent was damaged.\n\n3) The waterfall pump I originally wanted they were out of so they sent me another comparble one which ended up being no where near what I wanted what they sent was a bilge pump not a waterfall pump. I know they are similiar but it was way to small.\n\n4) The first time they sent the order they forgot to even send the pump.\n\n5) They did not send the wires to connect any of these items together and I specifically said I wanted everything to do this project and explained in detail what it was. \n\nThis had been happening over a few days but was trying to overlook the first few errors as sometimes shit does happen and it is unavoidable.\n\nSo I told them I am sending back all the merchandise except the socks (which did cook the potatoes in my solar oven it worked good) which in the end was the only thing they got right!\n\nSo again I am in a holding pattern and my waterfall is still not functioning and they have my money so I can\'t do shit about it.\n\nI will look for another solar company to work with most likely the one you suggested.\n\nIn truth I am surprised at Real Goods, in the past when I have done business with them it was no problem. But this time it was just too much.\n\nI hope all is well with you!\n\nBye For Now,\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2lmp8mj7',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11689,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155897749,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Sory you had all that trouble Angel.If you want to try this outfit.\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.newenglandsolar.com\">www.newenglandsolar.com</a><!-- w -->\nThey in Mass. They the ones I got my first batterys ,Trace invertor,and everything I needed to put it together.Steve Shulz  (I kno I spelled his name rong) knos everything.Aint never had no trouble or problems with them folks.They a small outfit,I recomen them.They closer to you too.I get a catolog from them every season.\nHope this helps.','',0,'gA==','34b8mmox',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11693,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1155908840,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I actually had them in my favorites from last time you mentioned them. Right now I just have to wait for my money to come back and then I will go from there.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1dw3a4ss',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11702,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1155919912,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I forgot I alredy told you about them.','',0,'gA==','1d0yaicv',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11727,1317,3,81,0,'24.184.166.149',1156039887,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','~  Lab Grown Meat  ~','Hi all,\n\nErik Marcus (author of several vegan books) has said that he would eat lab grown meat (to promote it).  I, too, would eat it, not because I have any desire to eat meat again (after 22 years of being vegetarian, then vegan), but because I believe it may encourage meat eaters to try it.\nHere is my opinion about lab grown meat:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.rrrina.com/invitro_meat.htm\">http://www.rrrina.com/invitro_meat.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','2xxjufta',1,0,'',81,0,0),(11751,1317,3,510,0,'70.252.48.100',1156107488,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Test tube tenderloins','Hello, Rina.  That is an excellent presentation; a compelling and reasonable argument for the acceptance of this product.  As you say, it\'s highly unlikely that the vast majority of humanity will accept veganism.\n\nAnd our purpose is to do what is necessary, by any means available, to end non-human animal suffering.  With luck, this method would be a very effective method toward ending much of that suffering.\n\nI wouldn\'t eat it because I don\'t like meat.  Most meat eaters probably would would for health reasons, if nothing else, since meat eaters are, by their very natures, willing to slaughter innocent life to satisfy their selfish tastes.\n\nSo line up the test tubes and grow all the flesh they need to chomp on, and relieve the animal victims of their misery!  \n\nAlso, Rina, you have a very nice website.  Thank you.','',0,'gA==','13z83tx6',1,0,'',510,0,0),(11755,1317,3,81,0,'24.184.166.149',1156116585,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','~  Eating Lab-Grown Meat  ~','[color=green:dtvmtvx1]Hi Ray and All,\n\nI don\'t like meat either (though I admit, I did at one time... after all growing up with a grandfather who was a butcher, I was practically weaned on meat).  In fact, even the thought of eating it again after 22 years, makes me gag.  But I would force myself if it would encourage others to eat it in place of meat from slaughtered animals.[/color:dtvmtvx1]','',0,'Ag==','dtvmtvx1',1,0,'',81,0,0),(11758,1317,3,1015,0,'152.163.100.131',1156120209,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Oh I can\'t wait fot it to go on the market. Not for me....but so I can buy it for my pets. \n      I want to be 100% vegan but I admit I still buy non vegan food for my cat &amp; dog companions. \n      In fact I just made a donation to <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.new-harvest.org/\">http://www.new-harvest.org/</a><!-- m -->\n   in support of their efforts to get it up &amp; in the market.\n\n      It certainly is a move in the right direction!!!','',0,'Ag==','3v0wisfb',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11794,1317,3,81,0,'24.184.166.149',1156194100,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','~  In-Vitro Meat for Pets  ~','[color=green:2wrq1e6f]First of all, Gingerlks, bravo to you for giving a donation to New Harvest!!!\nI agree with you.  Although my dog is basically vegetarian, my cats are not.  In spite of having read Obligate Carnivore (available at Vegancats.com), which is an excellent book, I do not feed my cats a strictly vegan diet.  I do buy the vegan tuna (called Tuno) and vegan duck (made of seitan) and mix it in with regular (meat based) cat food.  They also have grown very fond of Sobe and Cato\'s (the iguana and parrot) salads of swiss chard, dandelion greens, bok choy, collard greens, various squashes, and cantaloupe!  \nCats are carnivores by design.  I would try convert them to a vegan diet but I\'m not convinced it would be adequate (even with supplements).  I have known several people who painstakingly tried to provide adequate vegan nutrition for their cats and have failed (at the expense of the cats). \nI do not feel good about having to give them any (real) meat or fish at all.\nSo, I agree with you, Gingerlks, with in-vitro meat we will be able to feed our little carnivores cruelty-free meat!\n <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->[/color:2wrq1e6f]','',0,'Ag==','2wrq1e6f',1,0,'',81,0,0),(11796,1317,3,1015,0,'64.12.116.137',1156198473,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hi Rina!  \n      thanks for your reply........I\'m pretty much the same as you re. my\ncats &amp; dogs.....tried different things etc. But I love Tuno and can\'t find it any more......where do you get it? Can I order it from somewhere online?\n\n   Also......I\'m really distressed to see most of the people on this board voted against lab grown meat.\n\n    I ask everybody who voted against it to PLEASE read the excellent\npiece you wrote on it:      <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.rrrina.com/invitro_meat.htm\">http://www.rrrina.com/invitro_meat.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\n    Oh my goodness.....it would put an end to slaughter houses....factory\nfarms &amp; all the horrors those things cause. OK......you don\'t have to actually eat it.......but please BUY it.....give it away but support it if you get the chance. I mean if we animal lovers don\'t ...who will? \n\n     And Rina........I saw your web page a few years ago &amp; was so impressed! So glad to finally &quot;meet&quot; you......\n\n    Ginger, in Glendale Queens','',0,'Ag==','2x6ysous',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11799,936,3,1093,0,'86.130.77.18',1156207288,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','My two pence worth: I think that a society that has the death penalty is incompatible with a society in which people and animals truly have rights. (1) The whole point of having rights is to protect our most important interests and to prevent them from being abrogated simply because it would benefit others to do so. (2) Since no legal system is infallible, some innocent people will always be wrongly killed for crimes they didn\'t commit in a society that has capital punishment. (3) People have said that the death of some innocents would be an acceptable consequence of having the death penalty for severe animal abuse/animal murder. (4) However, that amounts to saying that it\'s okay to abrogate the rights of some innocents because of the overall effect the death penalty would have on society (i.e. that it would deter people from abusing/killing animals). In other words, people are saying that it\'s okay to abrogate the rights of some (those who are wrongly convicted) simply because others would benefit (in this case, the animals). (5) However, that\'s exactly what rights are supposed to prevent -- our most important interests (in this case our interest in remaining alive -- our right to life) from being abrogated simply because others would benefit. (6) Therefore, a society that has the death penalty is incompatible with a society in which people truly have rights -- that is, a society in which people people\'s most important interests are never abrogated, since a society that has the death penalty could always violate your rights, since you could always be wrongly convicted of a crime and loose your life.         \n\nThe above might be a bit garbled, but hopefully the general gist is clear.\n\nHowever, having said all of that, I definitely support much more severe punishments for animal abusers/murders. The current punishments for abusing an animal are pathetic. In a non-speciesist society, the punishments for abusing an animal and a human should be the same. If you deliberately kill a healthy dog, for example, then you\'re a murderer -- and you should be jailed for at least 40 years (and hopefully the murdering scumbag will be someone\'s bitch while he\'s in there!). Vivisectors are sadistic tortures and murders on a vast scale. Thus we need a new legal category to deal with them -- something like &quot;Crimes Against Non-Human Animals&quot; (or &quot;Against Animality&quot;) -- like the crimes against humanity we have now. A non-speciesist society should treat vivisectors like the worse human criminals in history (Dr. Mengle -- i.e. the Nazi doctor -- etc.) and jailed them for life without any chance of parole. They should get no privileges (not allowed to watch TV etc.) and should be made to serve at least 15 years in solitary confinement. \n\nHowever, when I see pictures of what sadistic and utterly shameless vivisectors do to non-human animals my rational side gets over-powered by the side of me that just wants to f**k them up in the most horrible way imaginable. An apt punishment when I\'m in this sort of mood would be: First, strip the vivisector naked so everyone can laugh at his tiny weener (all vivisectors have tiny weeners (if they\'re men, of course!), since they are all abject cowards (all cowards have tiny weeners; it\'s a universal law of nature) who only dare prey upon those who can\'t fight back). Second, tie him to a chair with barbed-wire so he can\'t escape. Third, rip all of his nails out -- very slowly -- with pliers that have red-hot tips. Fourth, take a blow torch to his bollocks until there\'s nothing left but black charred remains and a smell reminiscent of barbecued chicken. Fifth, slice the top of his head of so his brain\'s exposed; then insert electrodes into his brain and shock the f****r until his drooling and having repeated seizures, just like he used to do to his animal victims. Fifth, force him to ingest industrial strength bleach until it begins to burn a hole in his stomach and he\'s vomiting uncontrollably, just like he used to do to countless beagles. Sixth, cut his eyes lids off so he can\'t blink, then slowly drip battery acid into them, just like he used to do to rabbits. Seventh, throw him in a tiny cage that has two inches of excrement and piss on the bottom of it and then lock the door. Leave him there to die. Don\'t give him any pain relief or post-op care; don\'t give him anything to eat or drink. After all, he did all of these things to countless innocent animals without a second thought or even a twinge of compassion. He\'ll be in excruciating agony (just like the animals were/are), so hopefully he\'ll take a couple of days (or more) to die.','',0,'Ag==','xbka2ny1',1,0,'',1093,0,0),(11804,936,3,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156219394,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Dave\n\nYoure gonna fit in here well!\n\n\nThe only thing you left out was nursing the vivesector back to health between the steps this would prolong the suffering and gaurantee the vivesector remains concious through the various levels of punishment.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'Ag==','2e5ysc31',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11806,1317,3,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156219704,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I voted against eatting it which is what the question asks but I would definately buy it for my pets without a seconds hesitation. Plus I would put it out during the winter months for my coyotes and foxes and anyone else who wants to eat it.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'Ag==','2kpudf9u',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11815,1463,3,1099,0,'68.107.146.194',1156222602,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Actually (excuse me if i\'m wrong) but they shave gooses after they are dead, the don\'t slit pigs thorats, (i think they just lop them off) and i don\'t think people eat emus','',0,'Ag==','vq4ch6om',1,0,'',1099,0,0),(11824,936,3,369,0,'151.200.22.63',1156226610,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Dave_81&quot;:39kg9dc9]However, when I see pictures of what sadistic and utterly shameless vivisectors do to non-human animals my rational side gets over-powered by the side of me that just wants to f**k them up in the most horrible way imaginable. An apt punishment when I\'m in this sort of mood would be: First, strip the vivisector naked so everyone can laugh at his tiny weener (all vivisectors have tiny weeners (if they\'re men, of course!), since they are all abject cowards (all cowards have tiny weeners; it\'s a universal law of nature) who only dare prey upon those who can\'t fight back). Second, tie him to a chair with barbed-wire so he can\'t escape. Third, rip all of his nails out -- very slowly -- with pliers that have red-hot tips. Fourth, take a blow torch to his bollocks until there\'s nothing left but black charred remains and a smell reminiscent of barbecued chicken. Fifth, slice the top of his head of so his brain\'s exposed; then insert electrodes into his brain and shock the f****r until his drooling and having repeated seizures, just like he used to do to his animal victims. Fifth, force him to ingest industrial strength bleach until it begins to burn a hole in his stomach and he\'s vomiting uncontrollably, just like he used to do to countless beagles. Sixth, cut his eyes lids off so he can\'t blink, then slowly drip battery acid into them, just like he used to do to rabbits. Seventh, throw him in a tiny cage that has two inches of excrement and piss on the bottom of it and then lock the door. Leave him there to die. Don\'t give him any pain relief or post-op care; don\'t give him anything to eat or drink. After all, he did all of these things to countless innocent animals without a second thought or even a twinge of compassion. He\'ll be in excruciating agony (just like the animals were/are), so hopefully he\'ll take a couple of days (or more) to die.[/quote:39kg9dc9]  \n\n\n    I don\'t feel compassion for these people, but I could never do this. Pain is Pain, no matter who it is and what they\'ve done. If these people our taken and put away somewhere where they cannot lay a hand on anything then thats that. No matter how much of a sadists someone is, whether it be Hitler or a butcher of animal flesh, thinking about causing complete mutilation and excruciation to someone is no higher than the low and worthless pit of morals that animal abusers take on. \n\n\n   Now I feel I must make myself clear and show two opinions on this issue that I have shifted between so many times, being swayed by others  like Steven Best or Peter Singer.\n\n 1.I realize that it\'s unrealistic to hold a view that animal abusers of all species, will be sent away from everyone in this society thats so tolerant of their actions, so I feel that a &quot;passive&quot; violence against people like Cass is unfortunately necassary. When I say &quot;passive&quot; violence I do not mean to imply hurting them then killing them for your own form of sadistic pleasure(resulting from a feeling of revenge due to the others actions), but rather putting a stop to their actions when the government won\'t(painlessly).\n\n 2. Take the above position and apply to current events. I now change my stance and feel that once we start killing animal abusers, how will such a speciesist society view this? Direct action that the alf takes on is usaully held as terrorism, even peta is viewed as a terrorist organization sometimes, so how could this possibly help( Though I still think Peta and alf tactics are helping)? I think that before a position like this is taken on, public opinion MUST be changed first, or we stand a chance of losing all of the progress we have made. \n\nSo what do we do? I feel that when I take the 2nd position, I am willfully letting animals die, and even after constant lobbying, protesting etc.. for our cause we seem to move too slow for the animals.  Yet in the 1st stance, I could be setting the movement back despite the impression that I\'m directly  saving animals.  So right now I feel pretty strongly that our current methods( number two) are not yet exhausted, and need to be used further before applying other tactics( number one).  Also(not to change subject) if both fail, then systems like capitalism and so forth need to be destroyed because ultimately, this abuse stems from their filth.(Though all current governments should still burn)','',0,'gA==','39kg9dc9',1,0,'',369,0,0),(11828,936,3,510,0,'70.252.48.100',1156230130,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Redundant thought it may be, Compassionate, I will again refer to Tupelo\'s post on this topic dated Aug 13 06.','',0,'gA==','34l8h9p1',1,0,'',510,0,0),(11831,1317,3,81,0,'24.184.166.149',1156249927,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','~  In-Vitro Poll / Tuno  ~','[color=green:2btx1b0n]Hi Gingerlcks,\nI was not upset by the poll results because, as Vegan Angel pointed out, the question was &quot;would you eat it?&quot;  \nI don\'t think (from the responses here and other discussion groups I have taken part in) that they are representative of the vegans who would actually support the concept.  I think many would support the technology, but not eat it (which is fine - they don\'t need to ... I have no desire to eat it either, other than to promote it to the general public).  \nIt took me a long time (5 years of investigating the technology and fighting with myself to transcend my automatic revulsion to any meat product) to come to the realization that in-vitro meat is a good thing.\nOne reason people are resistant is because they don\'t realize it\'s possible to be an abolitionist/vegan, who promotes veganism as the (desired) ultimate goal, while at the same time promoting in-vitro meat (to meat eaters) as a compromise, a stepping stone.\nMany people (myself included) did not become vegan overnight, but came to the awareness gradually, in stages.   Promoting in-vitro meat to the masses would give us great opportunities to highlight (for those still unaware or willfully ignorant), the horrors of factory farming, while offering them a cruelty-free (and less unhealthy) alternative.\nI am encouraged every time I meet a vegan who understands this.\n <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \nBy the way, Tuno can still be found in some health food stores, though it is not available in cans - it\'s frozen.  You can also order it in cases directly from the manufacturer:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.healthy-eating.com/worthington_frozen.htm\">http://www.healthy-eating.com/worthington_frozen.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nIt\'s expensive, but the cats like it.  \n\nBy the way, great to meet you, too, Gingerlcks![/color:2btx1b0n]','',0,'Ag==','2btx1b0n',1,0,'',81,0,0),(11840,1317,3,1015,0,'205.188.116.202',1156256711,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:22xc5ueq]I voted against eatting it which is what the question asks but I would definately buy it for my pets without a seconds hesitation. Plus I would put it out during the winter months for my coyotes and foxes and anyone else who wants to eat it.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:22xc5ueq]\n  \n   Hi Veganangel,\n      Oh right! That\'s what I meant......so here\'s the plan. We buy it for pets\n&amp; wildlife but we don\'t tell people that or else it might get the reputation\nas &quot;pet food&quot;......and oh boy, then it would be doomed for sure.\n       Ever shop in a supermarket &amp; notice how the bagger is very careful\nto NEVER put any pet food in with other stuff? [i:22xc5ueq]OH OH OH......can\'t take\na chance on contamination[/i:22xc5ueq]  so silly &amp; yet these same people think nothing of chewing up rotting flesh......go figure.\n\n      And Angel.......meant to ask you, how\'s spay/neuter  laws working out in RI.......are they being enforced? Has it cut down on breeders at all? See, I can forgive the person......maybe a busy housewife or somebody who\'s kids bring home a stray and although it\'s the last thing she wants....the dog gets pregnant before they have her spayed. Sure it\'s wrong &amp; they need to be held accountable.......so they won\'t let it happen again, but as for the ones who do it on purpose to sell the puppies.....I don\'t care what they call themselves......there\'s nothing &quot;reputable&quot; about \nstealing &amp; selling ANYONE\'S babies!!!\n       In reading the law.....I admit it didn\'t make much sense to me.....but\nmaybe I didn\'t read it right........figured if anyone would know, it would be you.\n   Thanks,\n        Ginger','',0,'oA==','22xc5ueq',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11842,1317,3,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1156258312,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Rina wrote:\n    &quot;By the way, Tuno can still be found in some health food stores, though it is not available in cans - it\'s frozen. You can also order it in cases directly from the manufacturer: \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.healthy-eating.com/worthington_frozen.htm\">http://www.healthy-eating.com/worthington_frozen.htm</a><!-- m --> \n\nIt\'s expensive, but the cats like it. \n*****************************************\n    Thanks Rina,\n                  yes it is pretty expensive &amp; I don\'t know if I\'d have enough\nroom to store a whole case so I\'ll check at my local health food store.\n     By the way.......I love your phrase &quot;Willfully Ignorant&quot; boy that really \ndescribes a lot of people......including myself up until about 20 years ago.\n\n      I always regetted that the person who handed me the pamplet at the\nGreat Irish Fair.......back when it used to be near the Brooklyn Bridge,  never knew she made a convert......she was busy being harrassed by some old broad saying &quot;The hell with animals...why dontcha help children!&quot;\n     \n       I only read half the pamplet to realize what a hypocrate I\'d been......\n&amp; no exceuses!\n\n        So for anyone who hands out pamplets........I hope all the good you\'re doing ( even if you\'re not aware of it) comes back to you three fold!\n\n        My best to you &amp; all the great people on this board!','',0,'oA==','3ekvmijs',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(11860,936,3,638,0,'81.225.159.26',1156290071,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I dont think we will ever understand eachother..\nThis thread is an textbook examle of the two views on how to accomplish that one objective we all fight for, animal liberation..\nOne the one side there are people like me and Dave (welcome again brother..;) who have no problem understanding that every single social struggle has indeed implemented EXTREMELY violent tacticts along the way towards that goal of freedom of which the people was struggling for.\nOn the other hand we have people like Compassionate and Chris who belive that we never should resort to that kind of violence.\n\nWhich position is right?This is something that many would label a &quot;hard question&quot;\nI dont think this is an hard question at all..\nIt all depens on how you look at it, if you seek an solution that feels good ethicaly FOR YOUR SELF that obviously the pacifist way is the way to go..it will probably take for ever and of course you will se results, some abusers will unevitably quit..be it assisting at labs or whatever..BUT are these people with their hearts (somewhat) in their right place really the most dangerous enemy?I think not..I think the most dangerous enemy are the ones in charge, the ones calling the shots..people who are driven by their greed and their total lack of respect and hearts for the poor animals they without a seconds hesitation send to their death by the hundreds just to make profit..\nIf you REALY think you can change their ways by just telling them in a peacefull way that what they are doing is wrong i dont know what to say anymore..\n\nAll i am hearing from the ones that opposite the ideas towards violence against these people is that we should fight them in an nonviolent way\nok, that sounds nice and cuddly...name ONE way that would work, and has been PROVEN to work historicaly against heartless scum like this?..\nAll i am hearing from you is that its wrong to use violence towards these people, ok..so what is your sollution??\nDont just bring on that mantra about how wrong we are, lets hear your sollutions for once??\nHOW do you stop an abuser who just laughs in your face when you peacefully proclaims that what he is doing is wrong?\nHOW do you scare these arseholes from going to work to torture and mutilate animals in a peacefull way?\nHOW do you stop reincarnations of Adolf Hitler such as Cass without taking their heads off?\n(when HLS falls, i dont think it will take long before he is working at another hell-hole..remember his earlier employment..)\nCompassionate, perhaps im dumber than normal today but what exactly do you mean by using passive violence?that does not even exist in mybook, its physically impossible to be passive aswell as violent at the same time..if you know the TRUE meaning of the word violent you would know what i mean...\nTo further give Tupelo a pad on the back i stand behind him again in his responce towards this..\n\nI am sorry if i am perhaps a bit harsh in my critique but this is pissing me off in the worst way and i am so sick and f**ing tired of hearing these pacifist, naive ideas towards this..We are not talking about protesting against the building of an freeway, we are talking about saving lifes!!!\n\nUnderstand one thing..whenever you hold back and DONT resort to violence towards an abuser if given a chance to take that asshole out (no,i dont mean killing him) just because of your belives in a peaceful world..To the animal he is abusing you most certainly are part of the problem NOT the sollution..hard to hear, but TRUE..Think about that!\n\nLike i said, we will never understand eachother but i think it all boils down to this..you pacifists take care of the abusing scum that still have a heart and can change just by words and explanations, let us that realize what needs to be done take care of the other pieces of shit out there..\n\nEasy...\n\n\n(Dave, loved your post by the way.like you knew i would..;) )','',0,'oA==','171iuix4',1,0,'',638,0,0),(11864,936,3,1093,0,'81.129.10.43',1156294852,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Daddy_baloo&quot;:17rndxef]I dont think we will ever understand eachother..\nThis thread is an textbook examle of the two views on how to accomplish that one objective we all fight for, animal liberation..\nOne the one side there are people like me and Dave (welcome again brother..;) who have no problem understanding that every single social struggle has indeed implemented EXTREMELY violent tacticts along the way towards that goal of freedom of which the people was struggling for.\nOn the other hand we have people like Compassionate and Chris who belive that we never should resort to that kind of violence.\n\nWhich position is right?This is something that many would label a &quot;hard question&quot;\nI dont think this is an hard question at all..\nIt all depens on how you look at it, if you seek an solution that feels good ethicaly FOR YOUR SELF that obviously the pacifist way is the way to go..it will probably take for ever and of course you will se results, some abusers will unevitably quit..be it assisting at labs or whatever..BUT are these people with their hearts (somewhat) in their right place really the most dangerous enemy?I think not..I think the most dangerous enemy are the ones in charge, the ones calling the shots..people who are driven by their greed and their total lack of respect and hearts for the poor animals they without a seconds hesitation send to their death by the hundreds just to make profit..\nIf you REALY think you can change their ways by just telling them in a peacefull way that what they are doing is wrong i dont know what to say anymore..\n\nAll i am hearing from the ones that opposite the ideas towards violence against these people is that we should fight them in an nonviolent way\nok, that sounds nice and cuddly...name ONE way that would work, and has been PROVEN to work historicaly against heartless scum like this?..\nAll i am hearing from you is that its wrong to use violence towards these people, ok..so what is your sollution??\nDont just bring on that mantra about how wrong we are, lets hear your sollutions for once??\nHOW do you stop an abuser who just laughs in your face when you peacefully proclaims that what he is doing is wrong?\nHOW do you scare these arseholes from going to work to torture and mutilate animals in a peacefull way?\nHOW do you stop reincarnations of Adolf Hitler such as Cass without taking their heads off?\n(when HLS falls, i dont think it will take long before he is working at another hell-hole..remember his earlier employment..)\nCompassionate, perhaps im dumber than normal today but what exactly do you mean by using passive violence?that does not even exist in mybook, its physically impossible to be passive aswell as violent at the same time..if you know the TRUE meaning of the word violent you would know what i mean...\nTo further give Tupelo a pad on the back i stand behind him again in his responce towards this..\n\nI am sorry if i am perhaps a bit harsh in my critique but this is pissing me off in the worst way and i am so sick and f**ing tired of hearing these pacifist, naive ideas towards this..We are not talking about protesting against the building of an freeway, we are talking about saving lifes!!!\n\nUnderstand one thing..whenever you hold back and DONT resort to violence towards an abuser if given a chance to take that asshole out (no,i dont mean killing him) just because of your belives in a peaceful world..To the animal he is abusing you most certainly are part of the problem NOT the sollution..hard to hear, but TRUE..Think about that!\n\nLike i said, we will never understand eachother but i think it all boils down to this..you pacifists take care of the abusing scum that still have a heart and can change just by words and explanations, let us that realize what needs to be done take care of the other pieces of shit out there..\n\nEasy...\n\n\n(Dave, loved your post by the way.like you knew i would..;) )[/quote:17rndxef]\n\nHey Daddy_baloo,\n\nThought you\'d appreciate my post!\n\nYou make some excellent points, so I\'ll just add what I can. You\'re dead right: we aren\'t fighting for higher wages or against the construction of a new high way; rather we\'re fighting to save innocent lives and to stop innocents from being tortured to death. Purely non-violent action is appropriate for many circumstances -- e.g. if we were campaigning against sexism in the work place. When lives are at stake and innocents are being tortured in chilling ways, however, one\'s actions should be guided by a different moral imperative: Not to remain non-violent, but to save as many lives and to mitigate as much suffering as possible, with violence if necessary. \n\nOur enemies dictate the methods of resistance we use. If factory &quot;farmers&quot; (they aren\'t really &quot;farmers&quot; at all; rather they are concentration camp commandants) gave their pigs a whole field to play in with their companions and didn\'t slaugther them, then we would\'t have to resort to violence. But they keep pigs in total confinement stalls so small that they can\'t even turn around and when they\'re fat enough, they butcher them. This is what necessitates the use of violence -- not gratuitous violence, but rather violence to liberate, to rescue, to save. The animal abusers are the violent ones and the terrorists. Animal liberationists are engaged in counter-violence -- violence to protect innocent beings who have done nothing to deserve their wretched fate -- and we should never loose sight of this important fact. If you genuinely believe that it is more important to stay non-violent than to save lives and to stop appalling suffering, then -- to my mind -- you have a very strange sense of value. I simply can\'t understand where you\'re coming from. For me, every animal life saved should be cherished; every one of them is immeasurably precious. I would rejoice if a single pig (I\'m especially fond of pigs) were spared the unimaginable horrors of a total confinement stall. (One of the most heartbreaking things I\'ve ever seen is pigs in these wretched contraptions who have utter despair in their eyes and who seem to be imploring: &quot;Why are you making me suffer? Please, please let me out!) I\'m motivated not by blind hatred; rather I\'m motivated by a deep, deep sense of compassion. I can\'t bare the thought that animals are terrified and are being tortured as I write these words. I feel guilty that I\'m not out there doing something and am instead at home in my nice, warm house, sitting in front of my computer screen. People shouldn\'t make the mistake of thinking that those of us who are pro-violence are dumb vigilantes. In fact, I think the exact opposite is probably the case (and this isn\'t a criticism of anyone else and I\'m not being arrogant) -- that maybe those of us who are pro-violence are just more sensitive to the animals\' suffering; that we simply can\'t bare the thought that animals are in pain and so are prepared to support those who take violent measure to rescue them. I am motivated purely by compassion and a burning sense of injustice, not by a lust for violence. And I\'m guessing that the vast majority of people who are pro-violence feel the exact same way. Violence in everyday life is deplorable. But violence in defence of the innocent who are defenceless and who are in mortal danger -- well, violence in defence of these beings is commendable, laudable -- and probably even obligatory.   \n\nPeople can read my full view on violence here: \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/DefendingAnimals.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Ph ... nimals.htm</a><!-- m -->              \nHowever, I\'ll summarise my reasoning:\n\ni) Violence in defence of the innocent is justified. Since the innocent party has done nothing to deserve his fate, the person who is inflicting the violence on him is acting illegitimately, and we are therefore justified in intervening. \n\n(ii) We have an obligation to intervene on behalf of the innocent, since they never deserve the violence that is being inflicted on them; it is always illegitimate. This obligation is proportional to how defenceless the innocent party is, such that if he is defenceless, then our obligation to intervene is relatively strong; and if the innocent party is able to defend himself, then our obligation to intervene is relatively weak. \n\n(iii) The strength of the justification for violent intervention is proportional to the level of violence being inflicted on the innocent party, such that if he is being subjected to a relatively low level of violence, then the strength of the justification for acting violently on his behalf is correspondingly weak; and if he is being subjected to a relatively high level of violence, then the strength of the justification for violence is correspondingly strong. \n\n(iiii) The degree of violence we are justified in using in defence of the innocent is proportional to the level of violence being inflicted on the innocent party, such that if he is being subject to a relatively high level of violence, then we are justified in using a correspondingly high level of violence; and if he is being subjected to a relatively low level of violence, then we are justified in using only a correspondingly low level of violence. (Death is the most extreme form of violence, since it involves the most extreme loss -- the loss of one\'s life; therefore, if an innocent party is in serious danger of loosing his life, we are justified in using a high degree of violence to save him). \n\n(iiiii) Violence against the innocent is never justified. Since they have done nothing to deserve the violence that is being inflicted upon them, it is always illegitimate. \n\nIf you apply these principles to the violent defence of animals, you get the following: (1) Non-human animals lack the ability to act according to moral principles. Hence they cannot be \'blamed\' for their actions. They are therefore radically innocent beings. Thus, according to (i), violence in defence of them is justified. (2) Animals are utterly incapable of defending themselves. Therefore, according to (ii), the obligation to intervene on their behalf (with violence if necessary) is maximally strong (i.e. is as strong as it could possibly be), since they completely lack the means to defend themselves. (3) Non-human animals are subjected to horrendous levels of violence and their early death are inevitable. Therefore, according to (iii), the justification for acting violently in defence of them is maximally strong, since they are in mortal danger. (4) Furthermore, according to (iiii), one is justified in using a high level of violence in defence of animals since they are in mortal danger. (5) Also, according (iiiii), violence against animals is never justified, since they are radically innocent and pose no credible threat to us whatsoever. \n\nTherefore, violence in defence of animals, far from being reprehensible,  is a paradigm or exemplary instance of where violence is justified. Accordingly, ARAs should all support violence in defence of animals.  \n\nAnyway, I\'ve gone on long enough...','',0,'gA==','17rndxef',1,0,'',1093,0,0),(11868,936,3,369,0,'70.108.82.144',1156296352,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'m not trying to say that violence in defense of humans and nonhumans is unjust. I would support violence in defense of the innocent if it was the most pragmatic way of helping the victims on a wide scale, and in the long run. Pretty much all social movements have dealt with humans, and that concerns me because it presents the question &quot;Could society respond differently to a movement using violence concerning nonhumans?&quot;  \n\n  So instead of trying to explain why physical violence is just, how do you really think the public would view it? I doubt they would feel that the means justify the ends, as you and most of us do, which is why I am critical of violence, or at least currently.','',0,'gA==','2hpbgfoz',1,0,'',369,0,0),(11869,936,3,638,0,'81.225.159.26',1156296713,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Dave, as usuall, i can do nothing but cheer you on!\nExcellent post and we most DEFINITLY are on the same wavelength..\nI especially loved the point you are making that we who are pro-violence are more sensitive to the animals suffering and just cant stand it in any way..(even though everybody here NATURALY care deeply about animals)\nI cannot for the life of me understand how you EVER could set personal values regarding violence before the safety of an innocent animal..It absolutely boggles my mind and make me furious that people think like that..I can only label that behaviour as utterly naive and again, you are helping the abuser NOT the abused everytime you walk away feeling proud that you &quot;did not resort to the lower forms of handling an conflict&quot; or whatever goes through your head..\nIf you close your eyes and walk away when the only possible action is an violent one, you SERIOUSLY need to adjust your philosophy and fast.\nHow you could sleep at night if you walked away is also something i cannot comprehend...','',0,'gA==','2jn47nuz',1,1156297469,'',638,2,0),(11871,936,3,1093,0,'81.129.10.43',1156297241,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','God, I hope I haven\'t pissed people off by saying that those of us who are pro-violence are more sensitive to the animals\' plight that those who are anti-violence! Honestly, it wasn\'t meant as a criticism or anything. I know that all the people on this board care deeply about animals. I was just trying to explain, in the best way I could, why some of us are prepared to support violence -- that it\'s for wholly decent reasons, and not because we love fighting or something silly like that. So I didn\'t mean any offence...','',0,'gA==','6w5ljqal',1,0,'',1093,0,0),(11872,936,3,1093,0,'81.129.10.43',1156297773,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','...And for what it\'s worth, the following is basically why I think it\'s morally acceptable to break the law when defending animals: I think people need to realise that (a) there\'s not necessarily any correlation between legality and morality (between that which is legal and that which is moral); and (b) we are under no obligation to obey unjust laws. When that which is legal and that which is moral and just diverge significantly, our allegiance should always be to the latter and never to the former. To take an extreme example: Were the Jews in Nazi Germany under any obligation to obey the Nazi\'s vicious and anti-semetic laws, simply because they were &quot;laws&quot;? No, of course they weren\'t. Those few brave Jews who did defy the Nazis and their unjust laws are now rightly venerated as heroes. This example establishes that it is right (and sometimes even obligatory) to break the law, and that their isn\'t a pre-established harmony between the law and morality. \n\nAccordingly, given that it is not only justified but sometimes obligatory to disobey unjust laws, are we in any way obligated to obey laws that permit the torturing to death of millions of powerless and innocent animals in laboratories and on factory farms? No, we are not: these laws are manifestly and grotesquely unjust. Those who act outside the law to save animals from torture and death, for from deserving our condemnation, should be applauded for having the courage to defy unjust laws and for risking their freedom to do what is right. A manifestly unjust law, one designed to benefit powerful and privileged humans (e.g. factory farmers, vivisectors), should elicit derision and indignation from us; it should arouse us to take action (violent if need be). However, far from being inspired to do what is right and take action, most veggies solemnly tell us that one must blindly, slavishly, and with a level of abjectness unbefitting of a human being, obey all of the laws of a government (their grotesque unjustness notwithstanding) without question, while they condemn as misguided those who act illegally by committing acts of violence acts on behalf of animals. But there is nothing meritorious in blindly obeying the laws devised by corrupt states to protect the interests and augment the profits of the powerful and the privileged, at the expense of the innocent and the powerless. It is the stance adopted by spirited ARAs who are prepared to risk their freedom and defy corrupt laws that is morally praiseworthy. ARAs who operate outside the law rightly recognise that the only laws which deserve our allegiance are the laws that our consciences, after careful and protracted deliberation, tell us are right. This doesn’t give people carte blanche to disobey any law that they happen to find inconvenient. But there are certain laws – like the ones that help swell the already grotesque profits of the animal abuser industries while permitting the torture and killing of innocent non-human animals – that everyone of conscience can agree are utterly unworthy of our allegiance and should therefore be treated with haughty contempt and resisted, with force if necessary. \n\nEnd of rant.','',0,'gA==','cldil631',1,0,'',1093,0,0),(11877,936,3,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156306562,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','From a legal standpoint laws evolve from our morals. We need to act in anyway to bring around the further evolution of our laws which are still archaic and evolving. Our morals can and will always exceed our laws. Acting morally changes laws. Ways to act morally may defy the law temporarily but as with all laws to be it is defiance that makes the law.\n\nDid that make sense to anyone?\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2z5qhtxd',1,0,'',372,0,0),(11885,936,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1156333413,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Made sense to me.','',0,'gA==','2o0s17wr',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11913,237,22,1110,0,'142.59.155.72',1156361350,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','i think your all right but we cant be sur until we die and i dont like dieing so enjoy life and find out when you die.\n\n\ndieing isnt good.','',0,'gA==','14vogulb',1,0,'',1110,0,0),(11921,1252,22,1101,0,'172.188.13.4',1156370542,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','stick a hot poker in a plant what happens? stick a hot poker in a pig or a human what happens....','',0,'gA==','1wdhy67d',1,0,'',1101,0,0),(11940,237,22,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1156416630,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Here I was thinking I was the only one seeing them littl people AnnB.I dont reckon being a caveman would be so bad.They was a whole lot more conected to nature then what we are now.\nIm one of them nonbeleevers of a god or afterlife.I like AnnBs xplaination of atheism.I do beleev whatever happens to us when we die happens to everything else that walks,flys,swims and breaths.I think dieing would be boring and I got myself to much work to do to be doing that anyway.','',0,'gA==','kfq6hr30',1,0,'',454,0,0),(11946,237,22,1110,0,'142.59.155.72',1156438731,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','nicely said KRITER','',0,'gA==','31gysdp4',1,0,'',1110,0,0),(11968,1362,16,1116,0,'217.207.158.178',1156512114,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Green People do good toothpaste - keeps my gnashers clean and shiny-white.','',0,'gA==','2nv3k1qa',1,0,'',1116,0,0),(11972,352,1,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1156514338,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: Alien Vivisection','[quote=&quot;tolly&quot;:1txyb1kx]I don\'t know if any of you have see the film &quot;Fire In The Sky&quot; about Travis Walton\'s abduction, but there are some extremely scary scenes of him actually being experimented on by aliens. In the film he is as helpless and confused as any animal tortured inside the labs of this globe. \n\nThe first time I saw the film I drew the immediate comparison with lab animals, who I\'m only too aware are suffering right now in the hands of &quot;aliens&quot;\n[/quote:1txyb1kx]\n\nWhat little I saw of that movie, it scared the crap out of me!  Especially the experimentation scenes.  But it would be a bit of a wake up call for those who think animal experimentation is valid.\n\n(And is that a Slayer lyric quote I see?)','',0,'gA==','1txyb1kx',1,0,'',943,0,0),(11984,352,1,978,0,'62.252.224.19',1156530171,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Too right!\n\nThat film has some really strange and unearthly spine tingling scenes, You can almost imagine going through the procedure yourself. \n\nAnd yea that\'s Slayer... I sincerely hope that what goes around DOES come around if ya know what I mean ;)\n\nRegs, Tolly.','',0,'gA==','221cdhq2',1,0,'',978,0,0),(11989,1362,16,444,0,'75.34.187.84',1156539539,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Based on all your reviews, I had to try lush.  I just ordered the black toothpaste and a soap.  I\'ll let you know what I think!  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','w7aured2',1,0,'',444,0,0),(12030,1362,16,737,0,'83.67.139.76',1156575996,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','ooh the black one!  Yes please let us know what you think of it.  I have the feeling i\'m a bit too parinoid for that one, i\'d be walking around worrying that I hadn\'t got all the black off!  <!-- s:eyes: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eyes.gif\" alt=\":eyes:\" title=\"confused\" /><!-- s:eyes: --> \nIt\'s probably nothing like that though!  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','31u5wmev',1,0,'',737,0,0),(12045,936,3,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1156589890,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I support a 15-20 year sentance for animal murders. Esspecially murders that were commited in the act of malice. That is evil. Animals have personalites and souls too.','',0,'gA==','178ttyox',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12052,1134,27,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1156597823,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am new to AR I would like to know what types of animals they test on and what they do to them. I just thought that If I know exactly what they do I can spread the word on the fact and the figures I can persuade others to ban P&amp;G.','',0,'gA==','1p9jvaed',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12055,1134,27,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156604845,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Animal test subjects are varied generally cats, dogs, mice, rabbits, and mokeys are most popular but no animal is safeom expirementers. \n\nHere is a small video clip from PETA on animal testing it is graphic but worth the watch for education. Also touches on some of the alternatives to avoid animal testing.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.stopanimaltests.com/feat/testing123/\">http://www.stopanimaltests.com/feat/testing123/</a><!-- m -->\n\nHere also is a link to PETA\'s homepage poke around their site and you will be able to find more info.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.peta.org/\">http://www.peta.org/</a><!-- m -->\n\nHope this helps.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2xbh9ny9',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12058,577,13,638,0,'213.67.152.101',1156614145,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cheesy....eeehh...Cheeseburger, no..you dont look like Elmer Fudd, however you DO look like someone who would wear &quot;I dream about giving Ted Nugent an blowjob&quot;..(yes i know personal &quot;attacks&quot; are not ok in here, however cheesy asked for it..)\nInteresting when it comes to your &quot;photo-fetish&quot;, ive got some GREAT pics of hunters that been severly wounded in huntingaccidents, got their heads shot of, things like that..Makes me glad that it happens as often that it does, perhaps we could exchange some pics?\nI dont care if everybody here thinks you are somewhat deacent to discuss with..You Sir, are a hunter and for that i wish you..[insert evil here]\n\nsad though if they dont get organized in a better way, hunting is such an disgusting thing and it realy makes me crazy whenever i see hunters...fuckin retarded scum the lot of them...\n\nWe used to throw grenade-simulators at them when i was a teeenager, i dont know if you have that in the states but they are small military explosives that i guess somewhat resembles what you call cherry-bomb? It makes the fuckers run..trust me... <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> (and, it makes the government supply your bed for a couple of days...trust me even more... <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: --> )\nThat is also a GREAT tip if there are fishingcompetitions, get together and buy as much cheery-bombs and shit you can find...get a small (fast) boat and go for it...make sure you dont hit the retards head on though...its a lot of fun, you save som fishes lives and they realy,realy get pissed..\nJust a tip from the coach...<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'','2v95wd20',1,0,'',638,0,0),(12110,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156649943,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Or you can get a boat and lots and lots of cheap bread and make bread balls about the size of marbles and just keep tossing them in the water. Fishes love them and no hooks.\n\nAlso if you have electronics knowledge if people are fishing on shore you can hide something underwater that would release an irritating sound if it is a frequent fishing spot.\n\nOr whenever you see a bunch of fisherman go swimming with your poochie pal and splash alot!!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','3cacrqxw',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12120,577,13,638,0,'195.67.203.37',1156656227,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Huh?Who be this nicer version of my pal Angel?\nI do not recognize thou!!!\nWho be thee in Angels clothing??SHOW THY SELF!!! \nWhat have thou done to my sister-in-arms??!!?!?!? <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nAs you obviously are suppose to show a pic of yourself here (which nobody can verify anyway) \n\nHere´s a pic of me, contemplating how many dumb hunters there are out there and how to best get rid of ém\n\n[img:3ncdwft4]http&#58;//www&#46;mythicalrealm&#46;com/images-2/thor1&#46;jpg[/img:3ncdwft4]\n\n(NO,its not fur...ive got a hairy back so sue me..)','',0,'CA==','3ncdwft4',1,0,'',638,0,0),(12126,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156657639,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am still with you, but there is a certain humor in sitting next to fisherman with dough balls and luring all the fish over to your side of the pond as your tasty treats do not make them disappear. That was how I began &quot;confronting&quot; people. It was a humorous way to piss people off.\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'CA==','vjy2h34s',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12156,577,13,638,0,'195.67.229.171',1156713798,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You are, of course right my friend...its just my nature to be more...eeeehh..lets say militant towards things, my nature and then of course the Swedish marinecore has fucked me up quite good aswell...<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'CA==','um0mq3bw',1,0,'',638,0,0),(12167,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156733277,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Alright I\'ll compromise with you Daddy next time I will make doughball grenades edible and funny.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'CA==','233x02b8',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12182,577,13,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1156766034,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I went out on a big lake with 3 other dudes about 45 minits away.We canewed out on the lake to pik up trash in the water and along the banks.                                                                                                  Found lures, bobbers,fishing line tangled in the trees and brush,coke and beer cans and bottles,plastic bait containers,broke plastic chairs,broke starafoam coolers,broke folding chairs and stools just left on the bank.We found a trash barrel full of trash.Sombody put it there but never emptyed it.Pulled two tires out of a cove and a large trash can with wheels on it.A turtle was on the side of the trash can.Had to make two trips cuz we filled up canew.Also seen 3 fish belly up.It was a huge lake and rite prity lake in the mountains.I seen great blue herons,green herons,wood ducks and turtles.We got to live in that shit,critters and people and we dont giv a damn.This is fuked.We are gross and stupid.I kno Iv said this in several diferent ways.Im sory for repeating myself.We aint beter then animals.We are nasty.Im sure there was trash left by folks not fishing but most of the trash come from folks fishing.It was easy to figure out.We got to stop this bullshit .It just aint proper.','',0,'CA==','32rupe83',1,0,'',454,0,0),(12190,577,13,124,0,'208.38.12.26',1156773994,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Daddy_baloo&quot;:1n5btyzy]You are, of course right my friend...[b:1n5btyzy]its just my nature to be more...eeeehh..lets say militant towards things,[/b:1n5btyzy] my nature and then of course the Swedish marinecore has fucked me up quite good aswell...<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:1n5btyzy]\n\nDaddy...and it is just my nature to be a bitch','',0,'wA==','1n5btyzy',1,0,'',124,0,0),(12198,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156776017,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You are so right Kritter. When I was younger I would goto the beach weekly and pick up 3-5 shopping bags of trash and that would not be all that was there. I only could carry so much with my dog in tow as he was leashed.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','jrs5moai',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12206,237,22,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1156785287,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','As far as religion goes, it doesn\'t matter to me what others choose to believe.  What works for you, works for you.  As long as you\'re not shoving your beliefs down my throat, to each their own.\n\nI\'ve found some athiests to be as pushy as born-again christians (not saying anyone here is being pushy.)   I don\'t have all the answers, so it wouldn\'t make sense for me to tell others what they think is right or wrong.\n\nAll I know is that if there is an afterlife, I want my cats there with me.','',0,'wA==','2e6lx3z3',1,0,'',943,0,0),(12208,1252,22,1136,0,'213.84.147.83',1156787121,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Pain is a signal of warning, a plant can\'t run away, fight back or learn from mistakes, so there is no need for it to feel pain, I strongly doubt that a plant can feel pain like we animals can.','',0,'wA==','1twad7h5',1,0,'',1136,0,0),(12260,577,13,638,0,'213.67.154.113',1156798140,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;animalover&quot;:8trax0sk][quote=&quot;Daddy_baloo&quot;:8trax0sk]You are, of course right my friend...[b:8trax0sk]its just my nature to be more...eeeehh..lets say militant towards things,[/b:8trax0sk] my nature and then of course the Swedish marinecore has fucked me up quite good aswell...<!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:8trax0sk]\n\nDaddy...and it is just my nature to be a bitch[/quote:8trax0sk]\n\n*laughs* I think you are great and the world needs more bitches like you in that case...','',0,'wA==','8trax0sk',1,0,'',638,0,0),(12264,237,22,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1156803440,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I personally could not imagine a world with out God and a after-life,  not sure that I would even want to.','',0,'wA==','jkb6o9bm',1,0,'',643,0,0),(12267,237,22,1093,0,'86.140.224.158',1156807262,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:354ly7yb]I personally could not imagine a world with out God and a after-life,  not sure that I would even want to.[/quote:354ly7yb]\n\nIf there is a God, I wonder how kindly he\'ll look upon hunters -- &quot;men&quot; who kill some of His most radically innocent and vulnerable beings? I\'m sure he\'ll be chuffed. And I wonder how He\'ll look upon those ARAs who opposed hunting and tried to defend His innocent beings from being shot between the eyes by &quot;men&quot; who laughingly (well, it would be funny if innocent creatures weren\'t being gratuitously slaughtered) refer to such barbarities as &quot;sport&quot;?','',0,'gA==','354ly7yb',1,0,'',1093,0,0),(12268,237,22,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1156808536,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Dave_81&quot;:uefy78vs][quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:uefy78vs]I personally could not imagine a world with out God and a after-life,  not sure that I would even want to.[/quote:uefy78vs]\n\nIf there is a God, I wonder how kindly he\'ll look upon hunters -- &quot;men&quot; who kill some of His most radically innocent and vulnerable beings? I\'m sure he\'ll be chuffed. And I wonder how He\'ll look upon those ARAs who opposed hunting and tried to defend His innocent beings from being shot between the eyes by &quot;men&quot; who laughingly (well, it would be funny if innocent creatures weren\'t being gratuitously slaughtered) refer to such barbarities as &quot;sport&quot;?[/quote:uefy78vs]\n\n\nI am not sure,  only two things are for sure in this world,  There is a god and you and I are not him. (or her to be politicaly correct)  I am confident that if I would die today that I would have a spot in heaven.\n\nLast time I read the Bible,  Jesus fed the 5,000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves bread,  not 2 cans tufo and 5 jugs soy milk.  although i do like soy milk,  it would not have been a bad choice.  Maybe if you would have been around 2000 years ago you could have convinced the son of god in the his errors of his ways.\n\nFYI- I am being Ironic','',0,'gA==','uefy78vs',1,0,'',643,0,0),(12270,237,22,638,0,'62.20.254.109',1156809795,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:1vguakh2]I personally could not imagine a world with out God and a after-life,  not sure that I would even want to.[/quote:1vguakh2]\n\nIf i was in your huntingshoes i would quit worrying about that and invest in som SERIOUS fireproof underwear instead, because were you hunters are going after youre done murdering innocents on this earth you will certainly have good use for ém..\n\nPersonally it has always helped me to think that the animals that perish in the labs, furfarms and because of HUNTING SCUM come to some sort of heaven, were everything they had taken from them in this earth will allways be avaliable to them there..and they never, ever get tortured again...','',0,'gA==','1vguakh2',1,0,'',638,0,0),(12273,237,22,1093,0,'86.140.224.158',1156812055,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:3eacpeve][quote=&quot;Dave_81&quot;:3eacpeve][quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:3eacpeve]I personally could not imagine a world with out God and a after-life,  not sure that I would even want to.[/quote:3eacpeve]\n\nIf there is a God, I wonder how kindly he\'ll look upon hunters -- &quot;men&quot; who kill some of His most radically innocent and vulnerable beings? I\'m sure he\'ll be chuffed. And I wonder how He\'ll look upon those ARAs who opposed hunting and tried to defend His innocent beings from being shot between the eyes by &quot;men&quot; who laughingly (well, it would be funny if innocent creatures weren\'t being gratuitously slaughtered) refer to such barbarities as &quot;sport&quot;?[/quote:3eacpeve]\n\n\nI am not sure,  only two things are for sure in this world,  There is a god and you and I are not him. (or her to be politicaly correct)  I am confident that if I would die today that I would have a spot in heaven.\n\nLast time I read the Bible,  Jesus fed the 5,000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves bread,  not 2 cans tufo and 5 jugs soy milk.  although i do like soy milk,  it would not have been a bad choice.  Maybe if you would have been around 2000 years ago you could have convinced the son of god in the his errors of his ways.\n\nFYI- I am being Ironic[/quote:3eacpeve]\n\nWow, chris, what a subtle and talented ironist you are. (FYI - I am being ironic.) Wow (again), you\'re also a brilliant scientist -- you\'ve managed to make the earth-shattering discovery that neither you nor I are God. (FYI - I am being ironic.) And you\'re smugly &quot;confident&quot; that St Pete is warming a spot for you up in heaven. However, I wouldn\'t be so sure. I can\'t really think of anything worse that gratuitously killing innocents, so if that doesn\'t disqualify you from entry into heaven, I don\'t know what would. And wow (yet again), you\'ve actually read the bible. With your risibly poor literary level I wasn\'t sure if you could actually read. The asinine drivel you\'ve been turning out with depressing regularity on this website is an affront to rationality. Oh, and I see that you haven\'t been able to impugn my syllogism (note to hunters: that word of more than one syllable means &quot;a form of logical (shit, you hunters don\'t know what &quot;logical&quot; means either, do you?) argument) demonstrating why hunting is morally bankrupt and wholly unjustified. Remember the one: Killing innocents is unjustified (since they have by definition done nothing to deserve being killed); animals are innocent; hunting ineluctably involves killing animals; therefore hunting is unjustified (since hunting involves killing animals (who are innocent) and killing innocents is unjustified). Such a simple argument; but utterly beyond the ken (&quot;ken&quot;? I\'d better look that word up in -- what do you call one of those things? -- oh yeah, a &quot;dictionary&quot; -- typical hunter) of your standard imbecile (AKA: hunter).\n\nThe rest of your post -- the embarrassingly witless attempt at irony etc. --\nI shall ignore, smug in the knowledge that if you\'re at all representative of most hunters, then us ARAs are fighting against a bunch of half-witted misologists (there\'s another arcane (oops, there\'s another one!) word for you to look up, chris) who were all obviously starved of oxygen at birth.','',0,'gA==','3eacpeve',1,0,'',1093,0,0),(12277,1203,17,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1156817879,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I do aggree with you pitbulls have every right to live as we do. They are not things they are living breathing creatures that have personalites.','',0,'gA==','3i80rvhn',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12279,237,22,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1156820522,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','THE BHK Club-  It is made for you and me','[quote=&quot;Dave_81&quot;:vrie15zd][quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:vrie15zd][quote=&quot;Dave_81&quot;:vrie15zd][quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:vrie15zd]I personally could not imagine a world with out God and a after-life,  not sure that I would even want to.[/quote:vrie15zd]\n\nIf there is a God, I wonder how kindly he\'ll look upon hunters -- &quot;men&quot; who kill some of His most radically innocent and vulnerable beings? I\'m sure he\'ll be chuffed. And I wonder how He\'ll look upon those ARAs who opposed hunting and tried to defend His innocent beings from being shot between the eyes by &quot;men&quot; who laughingly (well, it would be funny if innocent creatures weren\'t being gratuitously slaughtered) refer to such barbarities as &quot;sport&quot;?[/quote:vrie15zd]\n\n\nI am not sure,  only two things are for sure in this world,  There is a god and you and I are not him. (or her to be politicaly correct)  I am confident that if I would die today that I would have a spot in heaven.\n\nLast time I read the Bible,  Jesus fed the 5,000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves bread,  not 2 cans tufo and 5 jugs soy milk.  although i do like soy milk,  it would not have been a bad choice.  Maybe if you would have been around 2000 years ago you could have convinced the son of god in the his errors of his ways.\n\nFYI- I am being Ironic[/quote:vrie15zd]\n\nWow, chris, what a subtle and talented ironist you are. (FYI - I am being ironic.) Wow (again), you\'re also a brilliant scientist -- you\'ve managed to make the earth-shattering discovery that neither you nor I are God. (FYI - I am being ironic.) And you\'re smugly &quot;confident&quot; that St Pete is warming a spot for you up in heaven. However, I wouldn\'t be so sure. I can\'t really think of anything worse that gratuitously killing innocents, so if that doesn\'t disqualify you from entry into heaven, I don\'t know what would. And wow (yet again), you\'ve actually read the bible. With your risibly poor literary level I wasn\'t sure if you could actually read. The asinine drivel you\'ve been turning out with depressing regularity on this website is an affront to rationality. Oh, and I see that you haven\'t been able to impugn my syllogism (note to hunters: that word of more than one syllable means &quot;a form of logical (shit, you hunters don\'t know what &quot;logical&quot; means either, do you?) argument) demonstrating why hunting is morally bankrupt and wholly unjustified. Remember the one: Killing innocents is unjustified (since they have by definition done nothing to deserve being killed); animals are innocent; hunting ineluctably involves killing animals; therefore hunting is unjustified (since hunting involves killing animals (who are innocent) and killing innocents is unjustified). Such a simple argument; but utterly beyond the ken (&quot;ken&quot;? I\'d better look that word up in -- what do you call one of those things? -- oh yeah, a &quot;dictionary&quot; -- typical hunter) of your standard imbecile (AKA: hunter).\n\nThe rest of your post -- the embarrassingly witless attempt at irony etc. --\nI shall ignore, smug in the knowledge that if you\'re at all representative of most hunters, then us ARAs are fighting against a bunch of half-witted misologists (there\'s another arcane (oops, there\'s another one!) word for you to look up, chris) who were all obviously starved of oxygen at birth.[/quote:vrie15zd]\n\nDave you either have a 200 IQ with those big boy words or you have a thesaurus on your desk.  My guess is probably the second option.\n\nBetween the posts from you and old daddy there, you truly have shown how compassionate the animal rights movement can be.  I think everyone should just stand up and take a look at what a shinning example of humanity you are.  You are a role model for our children!!!  Burn, hate, and kill anybody who disagrees with you.   Maybe you can start the BHK club.  Your club song will be:  Who\'s the leader of the gang that burns, hates, and kills for me?  d-a-d    d-a-y    d-a-v-e.  You would have to ask old Mickey if it was alright to steal his song.  Of course I should remind you that Mickey in several shows was a dairy farmer.  That might mean that the BHK club condones factory farming.  Maybe you can ask Santa to help you out at Christmas time with a new song, but then again you would probably give him a good whipping with the way he makes those raindeer pull the sleigh around.  \n\nI have been completly respectful of others opinions on this board and for the most part, most have been respectful of mine.   I have pointed parts out where i disagree and have never tried to defend hunting to anybody on these boards.   I have even agreed with a few peoples opinion on here on certain subjects.   I think Ann and disc do a pretty good job of moderating in here.  I have even seen Ann put a ARA in their place if he or she needs it.   \n\n  Even with your wise cracks and insults I just cant get it in me to dislike you.  There is just something about the two of you.  Maybe with the proper training from BHK club,  I can learn to hate also.\n\n\nOne more thing,  almost forgot.  You seem to know your Bible.  Why wouldnt St. Pete have a place for me.  He was a fisherman!!!','',0,'gA==','vrie15zd',1,0,'',643,0,0),(12280,1203,17,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1156821098,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','friends had a pit in college and it was one of the best dogs that I have ever been around.  Most cities require that you have some kind of insurance policy on the certain types of dogs in case it bits someone.  I have no issue with that.  I also feel that unless you are a breeder with a permit you should have to get the dog fixed,  but I feel that should be with any breed.  There are way to many strays running around.  Cats and dogs.','',0,'gA==','3meo9uik',1,0,'',643,0,0),(12298,237,22,638,0,'195.67.228.218',1156827016,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Your post was adressed to Dave, i know..But since you hinted about &quot;old Daddy&quot; im only twentyfourteen by the way,so fuck you very much (dont bother, i know what you mean by it..i also know its thirtyfour) i thought i might ask you this before Dave takes care of you...\n\nChris,for real...Are you retarded?\nI have personaly tried to explain to you its not about just agreeing or disagreeing to many times for this to be normal,aswell has Dave and i am very much suspecting that you are in fact...retarded...\n\nI have tried to explain to you its about the murdering of innocent animals and how to put a STOP to people such as you, its not &quot;only&quot; about disagreeing of certain beliefs...\nIts about certain peoples ACTIONS not only their ideology...\nBoth Dave and i and others here strongly believe that if you have to use force and sometimes excessive force at that in order to secure the lives of one or more innocent animals so be it..That is not an expression of rage purely on the fact of someones beliefs, but of someones ACTIONS..\n\nDo you get it sweetie?\n\nI guess not...*sighs*\n´\n&quot;So you want bad things to happen to people such as me because i disagree with you, you evil daddy you!!!&quot;\nNo,i want bad things to happen to people such as you because you kill innocent animals..\nNot just because you THINK its ok, because you ACT upon it..\n\nGAAAAAAHHHH, How can i put it to make you huntingfreaks understand...impossible...\n\nAnd, regarding the bible..i don´t read it, im Satan..remember? <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'gA==','rx9dyrtt',1,0,'',638,0,0),(12339,237,22,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156859003,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The miracle of fishes and loaves has been challenged as mistranslation. Many fishermen of the time did not eat fih they ate fishweed which was a plant that has more nutrition than fish and much more common aand likely for fishermen to eat. Also the words look almost the same before translation.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2zjqaxfe',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12361,237,22,1093,0,'81.132.68.161',1156862238,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: THE BHK Club-  It is made for you and me','[quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:1zcxzctf][quote=&quot;Dave_81&quot;:1zcxzctf][quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:1zcxzctf][quote=&quot;Dave_81&quot;:1zcxzctf][quote=&quot;chris1972&quot;:1zcxzctf]I personally could not imagine a world with out God and a after-life,  not sure that I would even want to.[/quote:1zcxzctf]\n\nIf there is a God, I wonder how kindly he\'ll look upon hunters -- &quot;men&quot; who kill some of His most radically innocent and vulnerable beings? I\'m sure he\'ll be chuffed. And I wonder how He\'ll look upon those ARAs who opposed hunting and tried to defend His innocent beings from being shot between the eyes by &quot;men&quot; who laughingly (well, it would be funny if innocent creatures weren\'t being gratuitously slaughtered) refer to such barbarities as &quot;sport&quot;?[/quote:1zcxzctf]\n\n\nI am not sure,  only two things are for sure in this world,  There is a god and you and I are not him. (or her to be politicaly correct)  I am confident that if I would die today that I would have a spot in heaven.\n\nLast time I read the Bible,  Jesus fed the 5,000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves bread,  not 2 cans tufo and 5 jugs soy milk.  although i do like soy milk,  it would not have been a bad choice.  Maybe if you would have been around 2000 years ago you could have convinced the son of god in the his errors of his ways.\n\nFYI- I am being Ironic[/quote:1zcxzctf]\n\nWow, chris, what a subtle and talented ironist you are. (FYI - I am being ironic.) Wow (again), you\'re also a brilliant scientist -- you\'ve managed to make the earth-shattering discovery that neither you nor I are God. (FYI - I am being ironic.) And you\'re smugly &quot;confident&quot; that St Pete is warming a spot for you up in heaven. However, I wouldn\'t be so sure. I can\'t really think of anything worse that gratuitously killing innocents, so if that doesn\'t disqualify you from entry into heaven, I don\'t know what would. And wow (yet again), you\'ve actually read the bible. With your risibly poor literary level I wasn\'t sure if you could actually read. The asinine drivel you\'ve been turning out with depressing regularity on this website is an affront to rationality. Oh, and I see that you haven\'t been able to impugn my syllogism (note to hunters: that word of more than one syllable means &quot;a form of logical (shit, you hunters don\'t know what &quot;logical&quot; means either, do you?) argument) demonstrating why hunting is morally bankrupt and wholly unjustified. Remember the one: Killing innocents is unjustified (since they have by definition done nothing to deserve being killed); animals are innocent; hunting ineluctably involves killing animals; therefore hunting is unjustified (since hunting involves killing animals (who are innocent) and killing innocents is unjustified). Such a simple argument; but utterly beyond the ken (&quot;ken&quot;? I\'d better look that word up in -- what do you call one of those things? -- oh yeah, a &quot;dictionary&quot; -- typical hunter) of your standard imbecile (AKA: hunter).\n\nThe rest of your post -- the embarrassingly witless attempt at irony etc. --\nI shall ignore, smug in the knowledge that if you\'re at all representative of most hunters, then us ARAs are fighting against a bunch of half-witted misologists (there\'s another arcane (oops, there\'s another one!) word for you to look up, chris) who were all obviously starved of oxygen at birth.[/quote:1zcxzctf]\n\nDave you either have a 200 IQ with those big boy words or you have a thesaurus on your desk.  My guess is probably the second option.\n\nBetween the posts from you and old daddy there, you truly have shown how compassionate the animal rights movement can be.  I think everyone should just stand up and take a look at what a shinning example of humanity you are.  You are a role model for our children!!!  Burn, hate, and kill anybody who disagrees with you.   Maybe you can start the BHK club.  Your club song will be:  Who\'s the leader of the gang that burns, hates, and kills for me?  d-a-d    d-a-y    d-a-v-e.  You would have to ask old Mickey if it was alright to steal his song.  Of course I should remind you that Mickey in several shows was a dairy farmer.  That might mean that the BHK club condones factory farming.  Maybe you can ask Santa to help you out at Christmas time with a new song, but then again you would probably give him a good whipping with the way he makes those raindeer pull the sleigh around.  \n\nI have been completly respectful of others opinions on this board and for the most part, most have been respectful of mine.   I have pointed parts out where i disagree and have never tried to defend hunting to anybody on these boards.   I have even agreed with a few peoples opinion on here on certain subjects.   I think Ann and disc do a pretty good job of moderating in here.  I have even seen Ann put a ARA in their place if he or she needs it.   \n\n  Even with your wise cracks and insults I just cant get it in me to dislike you.  There is just something about the two of you.  Maybe with the proper training from BHK club,  I can learn to hate also.\n\n\nOne more thing,  almost forgot.  You seem to know your Bible.  Why wouldnt St. Pete have a place for me.  He was a fisherman!!![/quote:1zcxzctf]\n\nHow quaint – a hunter thinks that words of over two syllables are “big boyâ€','',0,'gA==','1zcxzctf',1,0,'',1093,0,0),(12374,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1156882951,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Angel, theres talk that huricane fixing to come up this way.You mite get some of it being close to the ocean.Folks is freeking.I spect the grocery stores be full of ded animal eaters buying up all the milk,bred and moonpies.Maybe that huricane will get them on the way home.','',0,'gA==','1d5pnwyz',1,0,'',454,0,0),(12376,1282,33,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1156883177,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','A hurricane coming northeast?\n <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: -->','',0,'gA==','28yj8luu',1,0,'',943,0,0),(12378,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1156883398,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Its fixing to hit Florida.They guessing  its tract to South Carolina last I looked.','',0,'gA==','32qwxg1p',1,0,'',454,0,0),(12379,1282,33,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1156883464,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I hope it doesn\'t come up here!\n\nDid you say you were in NY?','',0,'gA==','3vegz012',1,0,'',943,0,0),(12399,1134,27,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1156925029,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have been using my fiances Pantine ProV it itches my head. It is full of bad chemicals. I only get P&amp;G when I have get manufature coupons because they have to pay the store the money from the coupon so they don\'t really profit. But when I use them i feel so guilty.\n\nNow I will never buy anything Procter&amp;Gamble.','',0,'gA==','311930s0',1,1157213810,'',1103,1,0),(12400,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1156932532,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','No','',0,'gA==','2b1vh77p',1,0,'',454,0,0),(12413,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1156944897,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeah I kind of get excited when they come and scared as I am right on the water just across the street. With the stuff I have water filter, solar oven and whatnot I am prob more prepared then most.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2l2elkbs',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12414,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1156945172,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Littl bit Im hearing ,it seems to be sloing down.','',0,'gA==','yzbl2122',1,0,'',454,0,0),(12458,1575,19,1031,0,'210.246.63.174',1156998859,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','I\'m freaked out.','my cat is my best friend.\ni love her more than anything, shes always at my side.\nbut shes getting old, and is going to die soon.\ni will be losing my family and me best friend when that happens.','',0,'gA==','1cze0mlf',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12464,1575,19,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157002205,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','ALS\n\nIt is always hard to loose an animal companion. Words cannot console when this happens. I think though in your heart you know what kind of life your companion animal has and you know you did your best for your friend. I find making a new friend from a shelter helps also. It is not a cure but it can help fill some of the void from your loss and you feel good about saving an unwanted pets life. Unlike humans I can instantly bond with an animal and I think many people can. Animals love unconditionally and can comfort sad people in times of need.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3oxeisqd',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12469,1576,7,674,0,'195.92.168.166',1157017176,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','AR music video on t.v!!!','I was watching \'scuzz\' before getting frustrated at the crappy metal bands then a rise against song came on, never really listened to anything by them but this song has incouraged me to go and buy one of their albums, ready to fall it\'s called. The reason being the video shows clips of animal abuse like the whale slaughter, male chicks being minced alive, environmental destruction etc It\'s not as graphic as the internet one right enough but it still shows the destruction of lives and our planet  something i\'ve never seen mainstream t.v show before 8pm!  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->  Hopefully people will see it and start questioning everything! \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.peta2.com/outthere/o-riseagainst_video.asp\">http://www.peta2.com/outthere/o-riseagainst_video.asp</a><!-- m --> \ntheres a peta2 link \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.riseagainst.com/videos/\">http://www.riseagainst.com/videos/</a><!-- m -->\nthere\'s a rise against link','',0,'gA==','30ll9rvp',1,0,'',674,0,0),(12472,1576,7,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157022232,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Musicians/RiseAgainst.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Sa ... gainst.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3g6jus79',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12474,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1157025652,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I got alot of rain last nite.It was beeting the hell out of my garden.I was down in there in the rain trying to tie stuff up and get me some green mators for frying.Rain come down so hard I couldnt see.Creek up this morning.Had to driv thru it but wudnt walk thru it.Aint sure what itll be like wen I get home.The storm aint even all here yet.Got the critters in dry places with lots of food and theres lots of water.Well,I was belly aching about the rain.Im damsure geting it now and spose to get more.Swiming mite come to be the best way to travel.','',0,'gA==','p6313i0v',1,0,'',454,0,0),(12475,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157032130,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Oh dear I hope you and your loved ones are ok. I know tropical storms and hurricanes can be a pain. I have had some hard hits. Mandatory evacuation where I live. It is basically a warped childhood fantasy that drives me to like them. When I was a child we got hit with a flash flood my father had to carry me to safety as the water was over my head. After the water receeded the area was without power for almost a week we did have gas though so we were able to cook and had friends over and cooked for them as a child it was great fun. Like camping in my house. I did not comprehend things like insurance policies or shingles coming off and whatnot. What can I say I never grew up.....\n\nStay safe my dear.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','o2beesw0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12483,1575,19,1031,0,'210.246.40.254',1157054040,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i do have other animal companions but no one like her, i can remember a time when i was really really really upset, and she came and climbed into my arms, then it wasn\'t as bad anymore','',0,'gA==','j7q5b1wg',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12494,1579,12,1157,0,'80.214.249.17',1157058585,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','my profile emmanuelle','hello\n\nexcuse for my english(is not very good)\n\n\nim live un france in Paris  \n\n\nIM PRESIDENT OF PROTECT animal \n\n\nIM A WOMAN i have deux dogs (bouledogue francais)\n\n\nim 30 years\n\n\nand i save with my mother mand my friend too much dogs and cats because a bigest associatve protection too much dog and he kill a animal because don t a have a place for another dog\n\nthiss biggest associative gove me a animal before killed\n\n\n\nIM HOPE YOU INDESTAND me\n\n\nI SAY FOR ALF thanks too much for liberation animal because human profite animal im hate i d ont eat a meat but i vegetarienne \n\n\nbut not vegetaliennt (im eating a eggs)\n\n\n\nthanks for see my presentation message\n\n\ni hope in a good categorie\n\n\nemmanuelle <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','3k2w2hxq',1,0,'',1157,0,0),(12498,1579,12,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157059680,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Welcome,\n\nI think the work you are doing is wonderful.\n\nIf you need some help with translation this site goes both French to English or English to French just click on the link below.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.freetranslation.com/\">http://www.freetranslation.com/</a><!-- m -->\n\nAgain welcome and I am glad you are here.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3ju2u79z',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12499,1575,19,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157059845,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Like I said it is never easy but we live an we move on. We are consoled by peaceful memories. We fall in love again.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1kri88vd',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12500,1575,19,1031,0,'210.246.40.254',1157060030,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','shes called bubba (i\'ve had her around since i was 3)\nshes sitting in the sun next to me purring very loudly lol','',0,'gA==','3s2k6g1p',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12502,1575,19,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157060234,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am sure bubba is a good freind if you worry to much about her dying you will not enjoy the time she is alive as much. Enjoy the time you have together.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2dc08adq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12504,1575,19,1031,0,'210.246.40.254',1157060448,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','when i\'m upset to do with something about animals everyone tells me to &quot;go find bubba&quot;\nshes so awesome <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->:)','',0,'gA==','ya9rmgpn',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12538,1583,13,1143,0,'205.188.116.132',1157073806,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','LOL Anti - hunting t-shirt','Hunting: How men with small... (white t-shirt)\n\nMen with a smaller than average penis might choose the despicable, cowardly &quot;sport&quot; of hunting to make themselves feel more macho. Tell them you\'re on to their dirty little secret!\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.cafepress.com/saproducts.28497812\">http://www.cafepress.com/saproducts.28497812</a><!-- m -->\n\n\nthats a pretty good one. Mine just say&quot; Hunters are Cowards&quot;','',0,'gA==','xyirdsyf',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(12540,1579,12,1031,0,'210.246.40.116',1157075664,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','hé, je prends des Français à l\'école ainsi je peux vous comprendre.','',0,'gA==','2k6gm8id',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12562,1579,12,1157,0,'195.154.129.76',1157099451,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','ah je suis contente que des gens me comprenne  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->merci bcp je vais utiliser le translator for you indestand methanks','',0,'gA==','1rzjkav5',1,0,'',1157,0,0),(12563,1579,12,1157,0,'195.154.129.76',1157099582,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I would like a lot to be able to help ALF has paris in france\n\nI find you wonderful\nyou have the notch to do this that a lot think all bottom','',0,'gA==','2705v8yy',1,0,'',1157,0,0),(12588,1579,12,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157118638,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Your Welcome\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3hpv6im2',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12608,1282,33,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157129389,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I cant live with out electric. I have to have my a/c, and I am also afraid of the dark. Huricans suck. I have never been in one. I hope everything is ok. In the heat I get near heat strokes. It is due to my medication, they react bad to heat.','',0,'gA==','1xpfnqzm',1,1157215289,'',1103,1,0),(12609,1134,27,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157129669,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am in the process of weedding out my Procter and Gamble stuff. I totaly agree that them testing on animals is a bunh of shit.','',0,'gA==','2cljhckd',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12623,933,22,1031,0,'210.246.63.49',1157161571,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i don\'t know either.','',0,'gA==','2fqf2pvo',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12643,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157179481,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','How old are you Gen...? Not saying to mock just curious.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2wpkvsnf',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12672,1362,16,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157210239,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am trying to find a tooth past in the US that is crulity free.','',0,'gA==','3l9nj2y0',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12675,1362,16,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157210625,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hi Gen\n\nIt depends on level of cruelty free you want \n\nFor instance\n\nToms Of Maine (itself) \n\nis cruelty free but parent company is not but Tom\'s products are made in diff facility with no testing. Easy to get many regular stores carry it due to association with Proctor and Gamble.\n\nJason\n\nis completely cruelty free. Here is a link\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.jason-natural.com/products/oral_care.php\">http://www.jason-natural.com/products/oral_care.php</a><!-- m -->\n\n\nHope the info helps.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','36m1mqph',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12682,1134,27,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157212483,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think I want to cry. I am in shook. I want to take more action then I did before. I think I am tramatised. Need direct action, now.','',0,'gA==','2vj1u20j',1,1157213147,'',1103,1,0),(12684,1134,27,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157212826,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Gen\n\nYou cannot change in one day. You are a work in progress. Learn one or two aspects and move on from there eventually it will all come natural.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1b2l64lg',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12686,1134,27,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157213243,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:as0u0pvm]Gen\n\nYou cannot change in one day. You are a work in progress. Learn one or two aspects and move on from there eventually it will all come natural.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:as0u0pvm]\n\nThanks. What I saw still hurts like Hell. I know that I have to work up to such thing.','',0,'gA==','as0u0pvm',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12688,1134,27,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157213408,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hurting is something that in the world of an ARA does not usually stop. So start with a simple step. Swear off meat today forever. There are sites with easy recipies available.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','25axfizk',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12691,1134,27,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157214027,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:12uvzj6u]Hurting is something that in the world of an ARA does not usually stop. So start with a simple step. Swear off meat today forever. There are sites with easy recipies available.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:12uvzj6u]\n\nCool. I need to start out slow and work up to not being a meat eater. I am going to do it slowly. I want to ultimatly become vegan. But that is going to be difficult. I know I can do it.','',0,'gA==','12uvzj6u',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12692,1134,27,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157214430,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That is what I was feeling inside my heart. I am know boycotting any place that sells fur. That is a go start for me.','',0,'gA==','2md9dm7o',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12695,1134,27,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157214678,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Good it will take time.\n\nI will send you a couple of easy vegan recipies tonight via private message. I know you are not going vegan now but if you eat dairy and eggs in other dishes that is ok. A couple of recipies is not total conversion and when you switch to vegan it will just make it easier.\n\nVeganAngel_RI\n\nPS Tonight is probably technically tomorrow after midnight I work nights so home late.','',0,'gA==','1fz2rg9t',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12699,1282,33,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157215198,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:235oma60]How old are you Gen...? Not saying to mock just curious.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:235oma60]\n\nI am 22','',0,'gA==','235oma60',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12700,1186,16,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157215684,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I vow never to by IAMS. After finding out what they do to animals. What is the point?','',0,'gA==','kthzkdle',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(12704,1583,13,1165,0,'216.244.38.124',1157230191,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: LOL Anti - hunting t-shirt','[quote=&quot;John&quot;:360kno4y]Hunting: How men with small... (white t-shirt)\n\nMen with a smaller than average penis might choose the despicable, cowardly &quot;sport&quot; of hunting to make themselves feel more macho. Tell them you\'re on to their dirty little secret!\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.cafepress.com/saproducts.28497812\">http://www.cafepress.com/saproducts.28497812</a><!-- m -->\n\nthats a pretty good one. Mine just say&quot; Hunters are Cowards&quot;[/quote:360kno4y]\nThanks!  It\'s from my web site. <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  I guess you\'re the &quot;guilty party&quot; responsible for my ending up here!  I posted about it on the \'introduce yourself\' board, but briefly: I was checking my site\'s logs to see where recent visitors had come from, and inadvertently clicked a link that led back to this thread. (I had intended to hit the one above it in my logs--but now I\'m glad I slipped!)  Thanks again, because I\'m very happy to have found this forum.\n\nEDIT: Are you the same John whose posts I\'m defending on the TinFoilHelmets board?  THAT\'s the link I was trying to click when I accidentally hit the one for ALF instead!','',0,'gA==','360kno4y',1,0,'',1165,0,0),(12710,1579,12,1031,0,'210.246.40.238',1157235634,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','j\'aime la langue française, sa si beau mais apprendre très dur, j\'ai presque échoué le peu au sujet de dire le temps en français dans mon examen','',0,'gA==','3t556c2y',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12714,1579,12,1157,0,'80.214.249.17',1157237028,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','je peux t\'aider si tu le souhaites\n\nen france des gens tuent les animaux praceque il n\'y a plus de place dans les refuge alors les associations me previennent et moi je les prend avec moi et ou chez des familles d\'acceuil les gens sont irresponsables!!!!\n\n\nj\'aimerais aider ici a paris alf ou qq chose qui ressemble \n\n\nparceque ici aussi les labos font des choses horribles je felicite toutes et tous qui se battent pour les animaux qui n\'ont pas demandes aux humains de, naitre pour souffrir\n\n\nl humain me degoutte  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> si tu me comprends j\'aespere que si a paris on a besoinde une personne en plus ous aurez suffisament confiance en moi pour me le dire\n\n\nsans notre aide les animaux ne peuvent pas se defendrent','',0,'gA==','22loxl0k',1,0,'',1157,0,0),(12715,1579,12,1175,0,'69.159.176.207',1157237138,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','bonjour, Je vien de Montreal alors mon francais n\'est pas aussi bien que le votre, mais je parle un Anglais parfaite alors si tu a de quoi a traduire, dit me le...\n\n-Bienvennu !','',0,'gA==','1bwckizu',1,0,'',1175,0,0),(12719,1579,12,1031,0,'210.246.63.9',1157238284,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','je trouve intéresser de la France','',0,'gA==','2r1dip91',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12720,1601,24,1031,0,'210.246.63.9',1157238487,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Vivasection','Who should be allowed to dissect?\nscientists?\nstudents?\nanybody?\n\ni think no one should.\nopinions anyone?','',0,'gA==','2qusfghl',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12728,1583,13,1143,0,'205.188.116.198',1157241678,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','hi! yeah I\'m the same one! I\'m done with that place so I don\'t really care what I say there.   LOL &amp; plan on bugging them till they either stop posting ( I am going to get the last word) or they ban me.','',0,'gA==','1ss6uxok',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(12734,1601,24,1015,0,'64.12.116.7',1157244267,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: Vivasection','[quote=&quot;animalloversister&quot;:2r70ef4o]Who should be allowed to dissect?\nscientists?\nstudents?\nanybody?\n\ni think no one should.\nopinions anyone?[/quote:2r70ef4o]\n\nI agree.....&amp; I voted NO ONE!!','',0,'gA==','2r70ef4o',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(12746,1601,24,1175,0,'69.159.176.207',1157248092,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I Belive scientists should be able to, ont eh ONE AND ONLY condition that the animal in question has passed away from natural causes. Because if we want to actually have vets in our towns, then they need to know what animals look like inside....','',0,'gA==','bmhv1g2a',1,0,'',1175,0,0),(12757,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157255380,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hey Gen,\n\nI am same with heat. I am trying to switch to solar electric I just dont want regular electric. I use non electric devices as often as possible to lessen my reliance on electric altogether. I am in very early stages but I love it and it feels so good spiritually so to speak.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1bf1hx4t',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12758,1601,24,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157255688,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I voted no one. But that was not my full vote. What Baroc said was true. There are humane ways to dissect. There are so many animals euthanized in shelters every year that after they are humanely ethanized then people studying to be vets could dissect. That should be the ONLY students allowed. Everyone else who is just curious computer simulated models are good enough such as for general biology. I do not want to think of a world where a vet is cutting into an animal for the first time if it was my cat or dog or .......\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','sunx9bbs',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12772,1601,24,1031,0,'210.246.40.103',1157258708,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','me too, the natural causes thing, and that is if they fully respect the animal','',0,'gA==','uepetofr',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(12870,577,13,1143,0,'205.188.116.138',1157339859,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','What you do is wait till the group go\'s into the woods then take a ice\npick to there tires.. really ruins there day when they try to go home.','',0,'gA==','qtz1yir9',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(12893,1616,30,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157350637,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Introduction','This is a new forum for new vegetarians. \n\nAny new or old vegetarian or vegan who has a question on something related to food intake please post it in a new thread in this forum. If anyone knows an answer hopefully they will give it. Also feel free to post vegetarian or vegan recipies here or even tips on how to make a new vegetarians life easier.\n\nThanks for reading.\n\nI hope everyone finds this forum useful.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','hrkg2l15',1,0,'',372,0,0),(12917,1579,12,1157,0,'80.214.249.17',1157393227,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','thanks BAROC AND animalloversister thanks you\n\n\nits difficult for me indestand very post in this forum i don t see another members live in france it s a brain dommage \n\n\nbut if want i do in france say me <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'gA==','g57m4i0b',1,0,'',1157,0,0),(12962,1579,12,19,0,'24.12.87.167',1157427500,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Welcome emmanuelle!','',0,'gA==','2pbriicv',1,0,'',19,0,0),(12969,1579,12,1031,0,'210.246.63.32',1157430711,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','vous pouvez parler en français si vous aimez, je pouvez le traduire pour les autres, je savez dur il est d\'avoir l\'ennui parler une langue, quand je suis dans la classe française à l\'école son souvent goût, ce qui ?','',0,'gA==','1phbsw54',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13007,1143,26,1081,0,'138.243.162.19',1157459171,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Maybe Insomnia should represent the anti-killing side next time? I think I like his/her argument better. That Cheeseburger guy sort of clouded things by bringing up the question of releasing animals into the wild (which seems like a whole other subject) and also by making statements that seemed to support animal exploitation.\n\nWas the debate cut short for some reason? I thought it was supposed to be 10 rounds?\n\nBTW, I\'ve read some of Francione\'s work but not all of it, and I\'ve only heard radio interviews with Dunayer. Ann, do you have any links or book recommendations?','',0,'gA==','1ilxsc2x',1,0,'',1081,0,0),(13014,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1157461637,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Genevieve&quot;:3g897kdj]I cant live with out electric. I have to have my a/c, and I am also afraid of the dark. Huricans suck. I have never been in one. I hope everything is ok. In the heat I get near heat strokes. It is due to my medication, they react bad to heat.[/quote:3g897kdj]\n\nIm off grid Genevieve but Iv got electricity.Hav to watch how much I use.Cant hav no air condition cuz it uses to much power.Iv never had ac anywair Iv lived.I liv back in the mountians away from most folks.It gets hot here.I find ways to cool off.I dont hav all the stuff city folks hav but its worth it.The dark out here is nice.Its like a planetarium at nite.And yes hurricanes do suk,but I was luky and just got alot of wanted rain.\nSimplicity is the best way.','',0,'gA==','3g897kdj',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13026,69,14,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1157471448,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It\'s great that she supports animal rights.  I just wish her claim to fame was her brain and not her boobs.','',0,'gA==','26pg6j1v',1,0,'',943,0,0),(13033,69,14,2,0,'207.200.116.200',1157476631,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','brains vs boobs','Boobs get more attention than brains. I doubt if there are many Google searches for Nobel Prize winners.','',0,'gA==','2fb0eqoz',1,0,'',2,0,0),(13035,69,14,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1157476866,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Teehee!  True.\n\nBut boobs usualy get attention from the wrong head.  If she can lure people into animal rights with her boobage, I suppose it\'s good.','',0,'gA==','9c9tuysz',1,0,'',943,0,0),(13053,1579,12,1157,0,'82.245.173.243',1157489349,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','thanks discolisious  moderator <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> thanks for accept me in your forum is very important for me\n\nbut it s dommage i don t see too mutch  post  because im just a woman in france but if you want i help alf im here\n\n\nanimal loversister je comprend ton francais (pas parfait du tout)mais le comprend les 3/4 c est bien deja\n\n\n <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: --> quel age avez vous ici?\n\npour els photo je peux en mettre comment je fais?','',0,'gA==','2hxsgo72',1,0,'',1157,0,0),(13083,1579,12,1031,0,'210.246.63.221',1157522964,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','ouais je suis seulement un de l\'adolescence, mais j\'étudie le français, et je trouve votre pays ainsi intéressant, nous étudions la nourriture française à l\'heure actuelle, bien vous devons penser que nous sommes de vrais porcs, du bruit de lui que votre pays ne mange pas beaucoup \n\nfor all the non french speakers i said \npour tous haut-parleurs non français i dit \n\ni study french, and i find your country so interesting, we are studying french food at the moment, well you must think we\'re real pigs, from the sound of it your country doesn\'t eat much','',0,'gA==','1behydtv',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13089,22,15,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157532418,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I haven\'t tried a veggie diet with my cats, but I feel that cats are carnivorious and need meat.','',0,'gA==','h2pg1osa',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(13113,577,13,943,0,'64.140.197.178',1157556579,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','What about going out into the woods for a &quot;picnic&quot;?  A picnic where lots of loud music is played.  Hunters enjoy Marilyn Manson tunes, no?','',0,'gA==','2y6fpki0',1,0,'',943,0,0),(13138,1579,12,1157,0,'82.245.173.243',1157605134,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','on ne mange pas beaucoup?\n\nba je ne sais pas trop du bruit a ca oui des porcs? sales ? non pas du tout ou peut etre a la campagne','',0,'gA==','1dge8m0j',1,0,'',1157,0,0),(13170,577,13,51,0,'69.92.104.216',1157677715,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No planned protests that I\'ve heard of yet this season.  My deer hunt went well.  I didn\'t see anyone except my son and 1 other hunter all week.  Our Elk hunt is next week in the same area so I doubt it will be any different.\n\nI heard that a small group of protestors in Sun Valley made a half hearted effort last weekend.  They didn\'t enter the national forest, but stayed in town.','',0,'gA==','1p6vypfj',1,0,'',51,0,0),(13187,484,12,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157690827,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It really sucks. I was reading something on the FBI website and it list several ALF members arrested for arson. I was like if I was rich I would buy them out of jail so they can get back to working for us and help our revolution.','',0,'gA==','3gzenrgb',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(13189,484,12,1103,0,'65.189.15.130',1157690948,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Everyone is getting arrested','[quote=&quot;discolisious&quot;:1ev1d7dj]Lately I have noticed that lots of people I know are getting arrested.  I know \'they\' are starting to crack down on animal rights groups/individuals, but this is rediculous!  I fear this is a growing trend...[/quote:1ev1d7dj]\n\nme too. that is why we have to watch who we trust working with us.','',0,'gA==','1ev1d7dj',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(13207,484,12,1159,0,'62.203.109.149',1157711988,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You have to be extremely careful these days. With cameras being placed pretty much everywhere (especially in the UK), 1 in 10 people being a police informer, the fact that the people who do this are classed as terrorists and extemists. They arrest a few of the people they can claim they have arrested another terrorist, not specify anything then use it to try and justify their wars and actions.\n\nDon\'t trust anyone.','',0,'gA==','px8q4hhq',1,0,'',1159,0,0),(13213,1601,24,1159,0,'62.203.109.149',1157713704,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I got a bit confused by the title and voted no one.\n\nI think vivisection (to cut or operate on a living animal) is completely wrong and there is absolutely no way to justify it. It\'s an incredibly sick thing to do and no one should be allowed to preform such things.\n\nI\'m not sure where I stand on dissection, I can\'t help but find it sick, just like human dissection. I could never do it myself, and if the animals were killed for that perpose it would be completely unacceptable.\n\nI would accept it if permission was given to preform such things, obviously animals cannot do this.\n\nI believe animals, like humans should be respected in death as well as life.\n\nAs I said before, i\'m not really sure where I stand.','',0,'gA==','y5s1sifb',1,0,'',1159,0,0),(13214,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1157715252,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Just come across a pile of 4x4s this rich dude was fixing to thro away cuz they looked old.They treated pine wich aint good but I beleev the chemcial is dryed up and me taking them is better then they laying in the land fill.Just in time.Needing new fence post for my garden fence.\nGarden is geting rite popular.I got me a yello jackets nest in some of the rocks and a copperhed in one of the flower beds.Just hav to be careful when I go to pulling weeds,sure nuff.','',0,'gA==','e7i270ug',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13221,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157721248,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Do you have a snakebite kit? They are available online if you need info let me know I will try to post. Awesome about the wood!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2ynlok05',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13233,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1157724961,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I dont hav a snake bite kit.Iv had some close calls over the years but I reckon it never worryed me much.My boy dog got bit last month.Swelled his hed up big time.But it didnt seem to bother him much.I took him to the vet anyway.Vet giv me antibyotics incase there was an infection is all.','',0,'gA==','1mz7b5ep',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13242,577,13,897,0,'72.18.96.233',1157728658,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:20fzbk23]you DO look like someone who would wear &quot;I dream about giving Ted Nugent an blowjob[/quote:20fzbk23]\n\nyou guys are cracking me up   <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','20fzbk23',1,0,'',897,0,0),(13253,577,13,51,0,'69.92.104.216',1157745137,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Daddy_baloo&quot;:3265eqxm]Cheesy....eeehh...Cheeseburger, no..you dont look like Elmer Fudd, however you DO look like someone who would wear &quot;I dream about giving Ted Nugent an blowjob&quot;[/quote:3265eqxm]\n\nTalk is cheap on net forums, especially when there is no chance of ever being directly confronted by the person you are disparaging.  I seriously doubt that you\'d be brave enough to make the same comment face to face.  \n\nWhen I see comments such as these, I recognize them for what they are.\nUsually the people posting them spend their lives living under bridges.','',0,'gA==','3265eqxm',1,0,'',51,0,0),(13257,577,13,2,0,'207.200.116.200',1157747444,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','daddy','It was comments like the &quot;Nugent&quot; comment (insulting yet not funny nor original) that made me deactivate daddy\'s account with this forum (after warning him). He is now over on the CARE site, bashing this site (as some of you know). It\'s disappointing that the bashers don\'t appreciate that name-calling and ad hominems are logical fallacies that lower the chances of a discussion being heard by an audience.','',0,'gA==','oadefrle',1,0,'',2,0,0),(13261,577,13,558,0,'80.229.159.66',1157749862,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Daddy is not bashing this site, he is very specifically bashing the moderation of this forum.\n\nCheeseburger, I very much doubt that you\'d be this brave in the company of true ALF members face-to-face, so I guess that cancels your comment out.','',0,'gA==','3b48hbk1',1,0,'',558,0,0),(13263,577,13,2,0,'207.200.116.195',1157750251,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','correction','[quote:1zqv6y6m]Daddy is not bashing this site, he is very specifically bashing the moderation of this forum. [/quote:1zqv6y6m]\n\nExcept that myself and the moderators are following rules that were established and documented by the owners at the beginning. If we violate these rules, the owners could pull the plug on this forum. Neither myself nor the moderators own this space.\n\nYes, we encourage our enemies to post here. We want to know them. There are motives to the way this was set up that anyone who knew the ALF and wasn\'t self-involved would figure out.','',0,'gA==','1zqv6y6m',1,0,'',2,0,0),(13264,577,13,558,0,'80.229.159.66',1157750693,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If Chris was moderated in to answering points put to him in a debate he freely entered in to this would never have happened. Dave was writting 3000 word posts and getting glib replies back addressing none of the points made. Daddy too was writing well structured arguments that were being ignored.\n\nCould I respectfully ask that the guidlines are amended to favour intelligent, thoughtful and thorough pro animal rights contributions rather than being weighted towards the hunters on here who chose to igore the counter arguments put to them time and time again?\n\nMy desire is simply to have creative and rigorous discussion on this forum for the benefit of the ALF cause. I think to wonderful ALF contributers have left here, to the detriment of the ALF and all it stands for.','',0,'gA==','i4b4ubko',1,0,'',558,0,0),(13265,577,13,2,0,'207.200.116.200',1157751764,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','guidelines','The guidelines aren\'t weighed towards any belief. They were modified from the guidelines of InternetInfidels forum, probably the finest debate forum on the internet.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=79154\">http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=79154</a><!-- m -->\n\nIgnoring someone (or everyone) is every member\'s right. There is no requirement to answer, unless one signs on for a formal debate. Answering illogically or with insults is not acceptable. Neither is &quot;baiting&quot; or harrassing.\n\nDo you have a suggestion for how to reword the guidelines?','',0,'gA==','2xkyce4z',1,0,'',2,0,0),(13298,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157780343,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hey Boar,\n\nI just read You and DaddyBaloos and Gingerlks posts. Just a few of points.\n\n1) Ann is an Administrator.\n\n2) Admins can ban.\n\n3) Moderators cannot.\n\n4) Ann has a job and does not sit on the computer all day answering posts ever so nice of you to give her adequate time to answer whilst you posted at ARCO saying she didn\'t answer.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','xrh3c4er',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13302,577,13,558,0,'80.229.159.66',1157796506,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Vegan, my only point is that I don\'t want to see the AR side diluted or disrupted. I can see that by putting over my opinions I could very well contribute to that happening. \n\nMy thoughts are known and I won\'t comment further on this subject, I don\'t want in-fighting.\n\nIncidently I have a full time job too, I don\'t see the relevence of that though?','',0,'gA==','chnigcnz',1,0,'',558,0,0),(13303,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157807181,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Simply that people are not on the computer at the same time.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1xlvwdv5',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13306,577,13,558,0,'80.229.159.66',1157811083,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Ah, I\'m lucky - I can keep a sneaky eye on the forums from my desk   <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','1xp4iofy',1,0,'',558,0,0),(13311,577,13,51,0,'69.92.104.216',1157826940,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Boar&quot;:284pgs8m]\nCheeseburger, I very much doubt that you\'d be this brave in the company of true ALF members face-to-face, so I guess that cancels your comment out.[/quote:284pgs8m]\n\nI\'m not sure what you mean by a &quot;true&quot; ALF member, but I have had numerous encounters with ARA\'s both on their turf and mine.  In all but one instance the encounter was non violent and fairly amicable.  \n\nIn one instance the ARA threw rocks at my truck.  He quickly retreated when I stopped and got out to confront him.\n\nI try to act and react the same online as I would in person and I encourage others to do the same whether on this forum or any other online venue.','',0,'gA==','284pgs8m',1,0,'',51,0,0),(13312,1660,13,51,0,'69.92.104.216',1157827756,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Domestic Elk escape near Yellowstone','A small herd of domestic Elk have recently escaped from a ranch near the Yellowstone park border.  Idaho fish and game and Idaho dept of Agriculture are currently culling them from the forest in 3 man teams.  Given the dense forest habitat and the small number of officials involved in the cull, I expect that they will announce a depredation hunt in the coming days.\n\n\nMy poll question is &quot;Should game officials allow a depredation hunt of these domestic animals before they contaminate the wild elk herd?&quot;\n\nfor more see \n\n[url:35d5knm2]http&#58;//fishandgame&#46;idaho&#46;gov/cms/news/top_story/topStory_9_8_06&#46;cfm[/url:35d5knm2]','',0,'EA==','35d5knm2',1,0,'',51,0,0),(13321,1660,13,510,0,'70.252.56.24',1157839035,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I am no longer going to post on this forum.','',0,'EA==','25mlqa5n',1,0,'',510,0,0),(13336,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1157903321,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Ann I ask your indulgence in this response as it is to people no longer posting on this board and I promise it will be the last one Ann.\n\nDaddy, Boar, Dave, and Ray,\n\nThere are 8 Administrators on this site. Ann is one of them and the only public one of them. She may not be doing all of this and maybe was told. No I have not rec\'d a PM saying that it is just a possibility.\n\nRay I never moderated you. I do not have the power to moderate in that forum I argued with you there is a difference. I can only moderate in the Veggie Newbie forum which may or not be valid in your opinion but I thought helping people to become vegetarian/vegan might advance the cause of less animal suffering. Maybe I\'m just on crack...\n\nAll a moderator can do is clean up an individual forum where they are listed. Did any of you ever volunteer to help moderate? Just a bit of curious sarcasm.\n\nDaddy I did see your update you are not the only one who made the error.\n\nBoar I knew. I don\'t want to join.\n\nLast one I promise Ann!!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','15kwl33z',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13389,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1158057526,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Tell you what I need is somthing for bee stings.My dogs been geting stung alot and I didnt kno wair the bees was till I went to cuting my grass.Their nest is in the ground but I didnt see it.Run my mower over top of the hole in the ground and them rascels was alover me.I cudnt get away from them for nothing.I spect it wud hav been rite funy to watch.I got stung 14 times.The grass over there is just going to gro,thats a fact.','',0,'EA==','28yfsyuz',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13396,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1158069196,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i know onion slabs can help placed over bee stings or any stngs for that matter. Best when the sting is fresh but that might be near imposible on a dog\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','22h9phbr',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13398,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1158074098,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Yeah Im not sure anything can be done for a dog.They handle it alot beter then we do.They able to obsorb most pain.\nMama use to make me chew Daddys cigarett tobacco and then put it on wair the bee got me.I do beleev it worked cuz chewing that tobacco made me forget all about geting stung,sure nuff.','',0,'EA==','3ssb0esc',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13400,1282,33,488,0,'152.163.100.5',1158074666,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Snuff works good too. I keep a can of it handy just in case. Something about the tobacco juice draws the poisin out of a bee sting. <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) -->','',0,'EA==','ejklfqb2',1,0,'',488,0,0),(13402,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1158076345,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Same thing with the onion\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','3jam6yaz',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13406,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1158079025,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Snuff would be easier to chew on for a bee sting.That cigarett tobacco use to burn.Next time Ill try the onion.','',0,'EA==','31zy35v3',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13427,577,13,1031,0,'222.153.181.102',1158114960,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i love disrupting things like that when out taking my dog for a walk, but on a smaller scale. i disrpt whitebaiting.\ni go there and make a lot of noise and scare them up the other way, i jump round in  the water near the nets so they stay away.','',0,'EA==','1htkd4dw',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13429,577,13,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1158116191,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Exactly large disrupts often push animals toward hunters. If the hunters think you are just an imbecile you can get away with it and without a fight!!\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','14jnzxrf',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13434,577,13,1031,0,'210.246.40.166',1158125221,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','lol yeah they just think i\'m a bored teenager being annoying  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'EA==','3vskcpvd',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13443,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1158149035,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Seen me a mess of young turkeys wen I got on my road yesterday evening.Must hav been 15 or 20 haf gron turkeys.Had to stop to giv them time to figure out what side of the road they wanting run into the woods from.There was one gron up.I reckon shes bizy.Hope they all make it thru hunting season.I seen a tom a good while back with his feathers all out and him walking on his tip toes prancing round in the open hoping to get himself a girl frend.I sure nuff hope to see some of them young turkeys do that come Spring,its beter then tv.','',0,'EA==','9n6ehppx',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13444,1282,33,372,0,'68.109.19.157',1158151808,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have only seen one wild turkey in my life and it was not a good thing he was dying hit by a car <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','331q9wro',1,0,'',372,0,0),(13453,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1158160233,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thats a drag.Theres lots of wild turkeys here.They reely fun to watch.','',0,'EA==','3sus99iy',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13490,577,13,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1158230382,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','sister ,whats whitebaiting?','',0,'EA==','2uiedm5b',1,0,'',454,0,0),(13550,577,13,1031,0,'210.246.40.234',1158300390,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','they are tiny little fish, and because NZ has lots of huge lakes and rivers, and its a normal thing to go \'whitebaiting\'','',0,'EA==','3uxotzdl',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13558,756,15,1103,0,'208.102.54.102',1158312021,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My dad lets his cat out and i don\'t approve of it. I want to give him the facts and figures on traping and animal death relating to this subject.','',0,'EA==','3btvsloa',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(13563,756,15,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1158320900,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','cats','You\'ll find some useful information here:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Pets/PetCare/Cats/Cats-index.htm\">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Pr ... -index.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'EA==','h1o55a4w',1,0,'',2,0,0),(13612,1362,16,444,0,'75.34.188.67',1158370111,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','So the lush soap is wonderful, I really like it!  The black toothpaste is OK... but I guess expected something spectacluar.  I also tried the shampoo and really liked that as well.\n\nGenevieve... order online... you can use PETA\'s cruelty free list... and make sure you sign up for igive.com too.  In case you haven\'t heard of it, igive will give a portion of the cost of your online order to your favorite charity.  It\'s  a win win.','',0,'EA==','1tlwflry',1,0,'',444,0,0),(13703,1601,24,1103,0,'208.102.54.102',1158473714,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Of course no one. Who ever decided anything else are sick bastards.','',0,'EA==','1v0721ug',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(13704,1601,24,1031,0,'210.246.40.146',1158473966,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i want to know who the person is who voted everyone','',0,'EA==','3d5gblc4',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13712,1601,24,1247,0,'202.6.138.44',1158483189,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Absolutely no one should be allowed to vivisect.\nI\'m not too happy about dissection of dead animals either. \n[quote:3f9vkaz7]There are so many animals euthanized in shelters every year that after they are humanely ethanized then people studying to be vets could dissect.[/quote:3f9vkaz7]\nThat sounds like an excellent idea. It just seems too open for exploitation by corrupt people. For example, somebody could give an animal a specific disease, take it to the shelter to be ethanized, then collect the dead body and dissect it. It\'s still premeditated murder. If they only used the already dead animals, that would be okay, but I\'m sure some people out there would not.','',0,'gA==','3f9vkaz7',1,0,'',1247,0,0),(13715,1433,29,1,0,'82.37.138.251',1158495916,1,0,1,1,1,1,'12','','Where is another working link for this?','',0,'gA==','bwsea8rg',1,0,'',1,0,0),(13716,1601,24,897,0,'66.44.196.210',1158496199,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No one should be allowed to vivisect. And while I\'m at it, may all the vivisector\'s burn in hell.   <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'gA==','5k8fgreg',1,0,'',897,0,0),(13719,1433,29,897,0,'66.44.196.210',1158497928,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','here\'s another link to watch Earthlings:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videogoogleearthlings.html\">http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videog ... lings.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nWhile we\'re on videos, here\'s a few more to watch online:\n\nMcLibel: \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videogooglemclibel.html\">http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videog ... libel.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nAnimal Testing: \n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videoanimaltesting.html\">http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videoa ... sting.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nAnimal Rights:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videogoogleanimalrights.html\">http://www.animalrightsmalta.com/videog ... ights.html</a><!-- m -->\n\n\nCan anyone tell me how to embed the url in a word, please?','',0,'gA==','2xcuo0ec',1,0,'',897,0,0),(13785,1601,24,1031,0,'210.246.40.55',1158553813,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','are you saying my friends and science class should burn in hell? what they\'re doing in wrong but they\'re just uneducated','',0,'gA==','30oo432k',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13790,1601,24,1247,0,'202.6.138.44',1158562285,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Vivisection means to cut and operate on a [b:1ldyqfee]living[/b:1ldyqfee] animal. \nThey aren\'t still alive in science class....... are they?!?! <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: --> \nWe don\'t even do dissection in science class in Australia.','',0,'QA==','1ldyqfee',1,0,'',1247,0,0),(13800,1601,24,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158582150,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;animalloversister&quot;:3m6gvbqt]are you saying my friends and science class should burn in hell? what they\'re doing in wrong but they\'re just uneducated[/quote:3m6gvbqt]\n\nNo sweetie, I\'m talking about people who decide to torture and kill animals as their profession.','',0,'gA==','3m6gvbqt',1,0,'',897,0,0),(13805,392,19,1248,0,'137.240.136.82',1158597463,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I own a red tail boa and I can tell you (for your son) that despite their easy maintenence (feed once a week, bi-weekly, or once a month depending on their size), they are a hard animal to care for.\n\nNot necessarily hard, but your son will have to constantly work with him.  Snakes can easily be kept tame, but only with constant handling.  If he\'s wanting a large snake (python, boa, etc..) let him know that their poop resembles that of a dog turd, except it\'s full of hair.  Also they can become very agreesive when hungry or when shedding, their eyes glaze over and they can barely see anything and are more likely to strike at your moving hand, so they can be dangerous, especially when they\'re 13 feet long and 80 lbs.  These snakes can live to be 30 years old, ask your son if he feels like taking care of the same snake even after he has kids of his own.\n\nAs for feeding, please buy frozen food from a respectable source.  Like mentioned, these are killed as humanely as possible with dry ice.  Rats will give the best nutrition for a snake compared to mice, and when the snake gets larger, he may have to move his snake\'s diet to rabbits, your son may not want to witness the swallowing of a little bunny, tell him to think about that.  A live animal will not willingly be constricted to death, so feeding a live animal to a snake is a huge &quot;DO NOT!&quot;  The larger the food, the larger and stronger the weapons for fighting back are.\n\nSpace with a large snake is also a factor.  I built my own cage that measures over 6 feet wide, over 3 feet deep, and over 3 feet tall.  He has the proper ambient temperature, the proper basking temperature, proper humidity, proper bedding, ventilation, hiding areas, and i\'ve tried to make his cage as &quot;homely&quot; as possible.  He has a large branch for crawling on, a volcano that &quot;erupts&quot; a foggy mist, a rock waterfall, a bark look-a-like hiding den, and a large rock look-a-like water bowl/pool, and also a natural light color florecent light so he gets all the proper rays the sun would provide.','',0,'gA==','3igryxqw',1,0,'',1248,0,0),(13817,1601,24,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1158606995,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No one','',0,'gA==','3bl9xtjg',1,0,'',444,0,0),(13822,1601,24,938,0,'210.86.45.204',1158614724,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:zhq251jy]Vivisection means to cut and operate on a living animal.[/quote:zhq251jy]\nThat’s quite right. So dissection is not vivisection because the animal was dead before the procedure started, the two are very different topics.\n\nTo the question, who should be allowed to dissect an already dead animal, not taking into account why it died I can’t see any reason why any particular profession should be exempt from carrying out such a procedure. I would though call into question why my accountant might want to cut up dead animals, but that said so long as it’s to educate then I fail to see any negative side effects from such procedures, on the contrary only positive things could surly come from it.\n\nIf animals are being bred for the sole purpose of being dissected then that’s a different matter. So because I don’t like to live under a dictatorship for the sake of being dictated to, then l have no choice but to be the third person to vote ‘Everyone’','',0,'gA==','zhq251jy',1,0,'',938,0,0),(13853,1012,3,1256,0,'24.196.244.244',1158641011,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Inciter&quot;:22iol0fl]those tshirts are cool.\n\nJesus came to earth to stop the animal sacrifice I think it says in the bible.\nLamb of God and all that..\n\nMy fav. is: &quot;if god didn\'t intend us to eat animals, then why would he make them outta meat?&quot;\n\nMy first ever leafleting and I encountered someone who said vivisection was okay because &quot;Animals don\'t have souls&quot;.\n\nIs there ANY animal friendly churches, and I mean in a serious way?[/quote:22iol0fl]\n\nbut when you point out to them that people are made of meat as well, with their logic are they really suggesting that we should eat people as well, the look of confussion on their faces (cause its always the same look) is priceless.  you cant help but to laugh at them.  \n\nor when they say animals arent as smart as humans... again, with that logic they\'re saying we should eat people with mental defects.  \n\nhonestly i just have to ask them to please, for once, do something productive for society and choke on the next bite of rotting flesh they shove in their fat mouths.  (make sure you explain to them to take large bite and dont chew... cause most of them think humans are carnivores, and as we all know... carnivores dont chew their food.  rip and swallow.) u might have to explain it to them a few times cause i doubt they have the brains to understand.  fucking pieces of shit.  they eat meat, give themselves cancer, heart attacks, and strokes... and im supposed to feel bad.  fuck them.  i hope its extra painful for them.','',0,'gA==','22iol0fl',1,0,'',1256,0,0),(13857,1601,24,1031,0,'210.246.63.165',1158641568,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;madlabrat&quot;:2xkhn1uf]\nNo sweetie, I\'m talking about people who decide to torture and kill animals as their profession.[/quote:2xkhn1uf]\n\ndon\'t you partronise me. \n\ni agree, i hate animal tortures, and i wish that they could just see..understand... but i\'m not a fight crime shoot back kind of girl','',0,'gA==','2xkhn1uf',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13872,1601,24,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1158678070,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','::::::::sticks head in door:::::::: \n   Madlabrat wasn\'t being patronizing........&quot;Sweetie&quot; is a term of endearment here.......honest......she meant it in a friendly way.','',0,'gA==','1vi5sg00',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(13877,1601,24,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158683246,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:1i3w0wgp]::::::::sticks head in door:::::::: \n   Madlabrat wasn\'t being patronizing........&quot;Sweetie&quot; is a term of endearment here.......honest......she meant it in a friendly way.[/quote:1i3w0wgp]\n\nThanks Ginger, I do use the word as a term of endearment.','',0,'gA==','1i3w0wgp',1,0,'',897,0,0),(13908,22,15,1280,0,'64.4.224.157',1158713710,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Give your dog a piece of raw meat and some brochili and see which one dissappears first. Come on, really....&quot; I\'m vegan so my pet has to be too.&quot;  If you actually believe that a canine or feline can have a complete diet without meat, you are mistaken. They are omnivores, and sooner or later it WILL come back to haunt them. Forcing a pet to eat a vegan diet sounds dangerously close to the oft cited &quot;perversion&quot; that is animal dominance/exploitation and therefor hypocrisy from where I sit...','',0,'gA==','zgq2oqio',1,0,'',1280,0,0),(13910,22,15,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1158718716,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','vegan dogs','There are a many healthy vegan dogs, and there are many brands of vegan dog food.\n\nAs far as preference, every dog I\'ve ever shared a home preferred to eat whatever was on my plate, even if it was a boiled tire, over anything I put in a dish on the floor.','',0,'gA==','cn9qalxc',1,0,'',2,0,0),(13913,1718,8,1245,0,'74.68.36.192',1158723175,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','selfish','humans have evolved to such a selfish nature..\n\nfirst they destroy our wildlife for the comfort of most unneccesary needs\n\nthen we start wars to win more and more \n\nnow we pick on society\'s most innocent victims... how low have we sunk?','',0,'gA==','3phsx82d',1,0,'',1245,0,0),(13920,1601,24,1031,0,'210.246.40.253',1158727811,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','my bad, sorry  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->  i thought you were implying i was being stupid','',0,'gA==','twx8y320',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(13956,22,15,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158764324,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','For the record, my cat and dog have been vegan for years and are both perfectly healthy. If they needed meat to survive, they would be dead by now.','',0,'gA==','1i4l20sd',1,1158781565,'',897,1,0),(13963,22,15,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1158767206,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: vegan dogs','[quote=&quot;AnnB&quot;:eatebh4o]There are a many healthy vegan dogs, and there are many brands of vegan dog food.\n\nAs far as preference, every dog I\'ve ever shared a home preferred to eat whatever was on my plate, even if it was a boiled tire, over anything I put in a dish on the floor.[/quote:eatebh4o]\n\n   ......but was boiled tire vegan, Ann? <!-- s:loudlaff: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/loudlaff.gif\" alt=\":loudlaff:\" title=\"loud laugh\" /><!-- s:loudlaff: -->','',0,'gA==','eatebh4o',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(13980,1726,19,1143,0,'205.188.116.138',1158797513,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Hate people like these!!','At least they left there email at the bottom hehehehe   <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> \n\n\nFully Registered Golden Retreiver Stud \n\nMe &amp; My boyfriend have decided to put our male golden up for stud service. His name is Teddy Bear. He is 1 yrs old, can begin breeding November 2006, he has all his papers, he comes from a great bloodline and both his mother and father are AKC registered, he is a dark golden color almost a red looking as was his father, hes very loveable and playful. We are asking $400 ( can negotiate to $350) for his breeding as we cannot trade for pick of the litter due to the fact that we are expecting our first born in october.Please email us with any questions/concerns or just to let us know you would like Teddy to father your goldens puppies!!! Also email us for pictures of Teddy! \n\n<!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:iluvwilyb@yahoo.com\">iluvwilyb@yahoo.com</a><!-- e -->\nWilliam &amp; Amanda','',0,'gA==','2giztaip',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(13984,1012,3,1275,0,'71.110.162.19',1158799257,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','&quot;you\'ll get worms if u don\'t eat met&quot;\n\n&quot;You will go anemic and die&quot;\n\n&quot;god put them on the earth so we can eat them&quot;','',0,'gA==','31fi4jk4',1,0,'',1275,0,0),(13986,1726,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1158799746,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[b:2bdodjzq]Hi John,\n       boy I hate people like that too.....but ::::deep breath:::::: Ok I\'m going to try to be nice....here\'s what I wrote:[/b:2bdodjzq]\n\nHello William &amp; Amanda,\n    Before you bring any more dogs into the world would you be brave enough to visit\na shelter and look into the eyes of all the dogs in cages?\n\n  There are millions of dogs that are homeless because people refuse to stop breeding.\n\n    Look down the rows of cages &amp; look into the eyes of the shelter workers too. Look \nat the sadness there.\n\n    How would you like a job where you had to kill beautiful, loving animals every day because there are only just so many cages &amp; always more waiting but not enough homes.\n\n     Take a walk into the room with the steel table &amp; watch as the life of another dog is\nended. Help carry the lifeless body out to the dumpster. That dog would have made\n a wonderful companion if only someone had given her a chance.\n\n     Please...if you have any compassion at all. Don\'t be a part of bringing even dogs into\na world where there are so many desperatly needing homes already.','',0,'QA==','2bdodjzq',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(13987,1012,3,1256,0,'24.196.244.244',1158799907,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','oh!  you cant forget the absurd ultimatums... &quot;if a building was on fire and you could only save one... your dog or a stranger... which would you save?&quot;  my dog, of course.  just like most other people would who do eat meat.  but just want to be an ass and ask you stupid questions to make you out to be either a people hater or hypocrite.','',0,'QA==','3vgn8noy',1,0,'',1256,0,0),(13990,1726,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1158800407,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','And here\'s her reply:\n************************** \n   [i:26w84n4o]  &quot;do you want to pay to fix my dog? thats what i though, we want him fixed but we have to raise the money to do it rightIf i get one more email im reporting all of you. each and every email i get concerning my dog&quot;[/i:26w84n4o]\n************************\n     HA HA HA HA.....She\'s going to report us to who?????\nFor what????? The silly ass bitch....<!-- s:loudlaff: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/loudlaff.gif\" alt=\":loudlaff:\" title=\"loud laugh\" /><!-- s:loudlaff: -->','',0,'IA==','26w84n4o',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(13992,1726,19,1143,0,'64.12.116.198',1158803299,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','LOL well she is going to be busy! I know at least 6 more people emailing her LOL\n\nIn mine, I told her I was reporting her!','',0,'IA==','3dwrj9hy',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(13993,1726,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1158804233,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;John&quot;:1p34uxq8]LOL well she is going to be busy! I know at least 6 more people emailing her LOL\n\nIn mine, I told her I was reporting her![/quote:1p34uxq8]\n\n   HA HA HA HA.....well John then you &amp; her are going to have a little reporting party..... <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: --> \n\n\n   But all kidding aside......do you think I should write &amp; offer to\nhave her dog neutered?\n      I would if I could be sure it was really being done.','',0,'gA==','1p34uxq8',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(13994,1726,19,1143,0,'152.163.100.67',1158804615,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I did,  haven\'t heard back yet.  If I do I\'ll ask for the vets name &amp; address and check with him/her first.','',0,'gA==','gesb3kiu',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(13995,1726,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1158804971,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;John&quot;:1qiyzdn6]I did,  haven\'t heard back yet.  If I do I\'ll ask for the vets name &amp; address and check with him/her first.[/quote:1qiyzdn6]\n\n     I think that\'s great John! If you check it out &amp; think it\'s legit.....I\'ll\n go half......I can send it to you via PayPal.....','',0,'gA==','1qiyzdn6',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(13997,1726,19,1143,0,'152.163.100.67',1158805370,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ll let you know what I find out, But I doubt I\'ll hear back. I don\'t think she WANTS to get the dog fixed. I think she is just saying that, but we shall see!\n\nMy email was sent quite a while ago, nothing yet. But I\'ll let you know what I find out if she emails back\n\nGood night, bed time for me LOL','',0,'gA==','2xtw5kjm',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(14012,1012,3,716,0,'75.37.245.18',1158818388,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','&quot;god put them on the earth so we can eat them&quot;\n\nthen why doesn\'t he save us the trouble by cooking the meat and putting a bun around it.  Maybe some ketchup too.','',0,'gA==','inh36hw4',1,0,'',716,0,0),(14020,1726,19,938,0,'219.88.3.176',1158827070,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','There are too many flies out there also; I wonder how we take control of those as well? <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'gA==','1ydcjm2e',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14022,1726,19,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158829677,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;DairyNZ&quot;:3skdywht]There are too many flies out there also; I wonder how we take control of those as well? <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->[/quote:3skdywht]\n\nNo doubt your wit has gotten you far in life.... <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> \n\nJohn, check around for low cost neuter/spay programs. I\'m able to get foster dogs neutered/spayed for $10 because some local groups have county funding and donations. Also, some vets will allow payment plans.','',0,'gA==','3skdywht',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14025,1726,19,938,0,'219.88.3.176',1158831289,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:2nkeifan]No doubt your wit has gotten you far in life....  [/quote:2nkeifan]\nNow that\'s,,, witty.  <!-- s:silenced: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_silenced.gif\" alt=\":silenced:\" title=\"silenced\" /><!-- s:silenced: -->','',0,'gA==','2nkeifan',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14029,457,12,1199,0,'68.45.170.252',1158833979,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Basically any kind of fortified soymilk has B12 and Vitamin D.','',0,'gA==','ysturb35',1,0,'',1199,0,0),(14030,1726,19,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158834137,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;DairyNZ&quot;:1ph2q1jg][quote:1ph2q1jg]No doubt your wit has gotten you far in life....  [/quote:1ph2q1jg]\nNow that\'s,,, witty.  <!-- s:silenced: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_silenced.gif\" alt=\":silenced:\" title=\"silenced\" /><!-- s:silenced: -->[/quote:1ph2q1jg]\n\nWhy did you choose to call yourself \'DairyNZ\'?','',0,'gA==','1ph2q1jg',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14035,1726,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1158844462,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;madlabrat&quot;:3of2w6e8]John, check around for low cost neuter/spay programs. I\'m able to get foster dogs neutered/spayed for $10 because some local groups have county funding and donations. Also, some vets will allow payment plans.[/quote:3of2w6e8]\n\nThat\'s great Mad....what part of the country is that?\n\n&amp; John do you know where that &quot;lovely couple&quot; live?','',0,'gA==','3of2w6e8',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14049,1012,3,1256,0,'24.196.244.244',1158866110,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;BorderCollie89&quot;:37kd0v8l]&quot;god put them on the earth so we can eat them&quot;\n\nthen why doesn\'t he save us the trouble by cooking the meat and putting a bun around it.  Maybe some ketchup too.[/quote:37kd0v8l]\n\nAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!  the fucking domain card!!!!!  its easy for them to blurt that out, but most of them have no idea what domain meant in ancient times (ie. RESPONSIBILITY... a concept that they cant seem to grasp)  and i find it very humerous when women spit that out at me, i simply reply by asking if they think that their father/ boyfriend/husband/ son/ uncle (any male figure in their life, or even come to interact with) is not only superior to them but own them as property... b/c in that little bible that people so confidently love to quote from forget that right after it speaks of animals it goes into the domain of man over women... \n\none woman threatened to hit me after i pointed that out.  \n\nnot to mention the historical lackings of proof in the bible.... living in the bible belt i cant help but need to scream ITS NOT A SOURCE OF FACT!!!!   name one other book with so many textual flaws such as the bible that we use as fact?  ok... im going off on a tangent... sorry.','',0,'gA==','37kd0v8l',1,0,'',1256,0,0),(14053,1726,19,1143,0,'64.12.116.198',1158867242,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','she never  replyed back to me.','',0,'gA==','2sp23z04',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(14054,1012,3,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1158867383,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Meesh121&quot;:3stxg9zz].... living in the bible belt i cant help but need to scream ITS NOT A SOURCE OF FACT!!!!   name one other book with so many textual flaws such as the bible that we use as fact?  ok... im going off on a tangent... sorry.[/quote:3stxg9zz]\n\nMeesh......come over here right now and get a hug......come on....come on don\'t be shy.\n                                         <!-- s:group hug: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/grouphug.gif\" alt=\":group hug:\" title=\"group hug\" /><!-- s:group hug: --> \n\n    Living in the bible belt.....whew, my heart goes out to you my friend.....been there......got the hell out of there as fast as I could.....&amp; never looked back\n\n    So tell me.....how [u:3stxg9zz][i:3stxg9zz]do[/i:3stxg9zz] [/u:3stxg9zz]you keep from screaming? \n   \n     And are your neighbors still trying to capture Canadians?\n\n[b:3stxg9zz][u:3stxg9zz]    OPEN LETTER TO Dr Laura[/u:3stxg9zz][/b:3stxg9zz]\n Dear Dr. Laura:\n\n Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God\'s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.  When someone tries to defend the ho­mosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Le­viticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.  End of de­bate.  I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.\n\n \n\n1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it cre­ates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9).  The problem is my neighbours: they claim the odour is not pleasing to them.  Should I smite them?\n\n \n\n2. I would like to sell my daugh­ter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.  In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?\n\n \n\n3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual un-cleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is: how do I tell?  I have tried asking, but most women take offence.\n\n \n\n4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.  A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can\'t I own Canadians?\n\n \n\n5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.  Ex­odus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.  Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?\n\n \n\n6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10) it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.  I don\'t agree. Can you settle this?\n\n \n\n7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.  I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.  Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wig­gle room here?\n\n \n\n8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.  How should they die?\n\n \n\n9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?\n\n \n\n10. My uncle has a farm.  He vi­olates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing gar­ments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyes­ter blend).  He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot.  Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)?  Couldn\'t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with peo­ple who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)?\n\n \n\nI know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confi­dent you can help.  Thank you again for reminding us that God\'s word is eternal and un­changing.\n\n \n\nYour devoted disciple and adoring fan,\n\nJerry','',0,'4Q==','3stxg9zz',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14055,1726,19,1143,0,'64.12.116.198',1158867402,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;DairyNZ&quot;:cj09v3cn]There are too many flies out there also; I wonder how we take control of those as well? <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->[/quote:cj09v3cn]\n\nDumb ass,  they take care of that every winter    <!-- s:moon: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_butt.gif\" alt=\":moon:\" title=\"moon\" /><!-- s:moon: -->\nOh , have a nice day','',0,'gA==','cj09v3cn',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(14070,1726,19,938,0,'219.88.0.74',1158875651,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:2vztw5ve]Why did you choose to call yourself \'DairyNZ\'?[/quote:2vztw5ve]\nOk,, Dairy relates to my profession, so upon signing up finding out ‘Dairy’ was taken I felt it appropriate to add ‘NZ’ signaling my location. \n\n[quote:2vztw5ve]Dumb ass, they take care of that every winter  \nOh , have a nice day[/quote:2vztw5ve]\nMy ‘witty’ reply was a [b:2vztw5ve]satirical[/b:2vztw5ve] response. Why do we feel it’s somehow our duty to control everything? Dogs are prolific breeders for a natural reason, let’s not forget that.\n\nThat’s just the way I feel, I’ll take it from that you disagree which is fine with me. \n\nHave a nice day.','',0,'wA==','2vztw5ve',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14076,1726,19,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158877584,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:1aw5zbd9]Why did you choose to call yourself \'DairyNZ\'?[/quote:1aw5zbd9]\nOk,, Dairy relates to my profession, so upon signing up finding out ‘Dairy’ was taken I felt it appropriate to add ‘NZ’ signaling my location. \n\nSo, you\'re in the \'dairy profession\'? Please, do expound.\n\n[quote:1aw5zbd9]Dumb ass, they take care of that every winter  \nOh , have a nice day\nMy ‘witty’ reply was a [b:1aw5zbd9]satirical[/b:1aw5zbd9] response. Why do we feel it’s somehow our duty to control everything? Dogs are prolific breeders for a natural reason, let’s not forget that.[/quote:1aw5zbd9]\n\nIn case you don\'t know, dogs are being killed every second because there aren\'t enough homes for them. Or is NZ different in that aspect? Have you ever been to an animal shelter and seen the dogs being hauled off to be killed? Talk about a slap of reality.','',0,'wA==','1aw5zbd9',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14080,1726,19,444,0,'75.34.6.48',1158878948,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There are free and low cost spay and neuter programs all across the United States.  Google it with your state, or call your local Shelter if you are interested in programs in your area.  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'wA==','s2wbhro5',1,0,'',444,0,0),(14081,1726,19,444,0,'75.34.6.48',1158879176,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;DairyNZ&quot;:1fsbekqo]\nMy ‘witty’ reply was a [b:1fsbekqo]satirical[/b:1fsbekqo] response. Why do we feel it’s somehow our duty to control everything? Dogs are prolific breeders for a natural reason, let’s not forget that.\n\nThat’s just the way I feel, I’ll take it from that you disagree which is fine with me. \n\nHave a nice day.[/quote:1fsbekqo]\n\nThere is nothing natural about forcing dogs to breed if that\'s what you are infering.  Gassing, heartsticking, and shooting 10,000 of them every single day is also not natural.','',0,'wA==','1fsbekqo',1,0,'',444,0,0),(14099,1726,19,1143,0,'205.188.116.138',1158884003,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My ‘witty’ reply was a [b:2x64wrv1]satirical[/b:2x64wrv1] response. Why do we feel it’s somehow our duty to control everything? Dogs are prolific breeders for a natural reason, let’s not forget that.[/quote]\n\nWitty??  ignorant is more like it.\n\n\nUmmm, dogs are prolific breeders, yeah thats why shelters are over crowded.  Again I say...... dumb ass\n\n\nUmmmm dogs are prolific breeders for a natural reason.\nthese people are doing it to make money with out any care about what happens to the puppys.......... dumb ass, YEAH thats your new name by the way LOL','',0,'QA==','2x64wrv1',1,0,'',1143,0,0),(14126,1726,19,938,0,'219.88.0.164',1158911313,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:1zvyvxga]So, you\'re in the \'dairy profession\'? Please, do expound.[/quote:1zvyvxga]\nOnly because you asked so nicely; We’re contracted to milk 700 cows on 233ha, we are seasonal supply, an all grass milking platform with brassicas during winter. Looking at 430ms/cow around 1250ms/ha this year. We are located below the Takitimu Mountain Range, named after the ancient M&#257;ori migration waka.\n\nLike many species dogs are prolific breeders, it’s survival of the species all we’ve done is to change the criteria, as to who lives and who dies. Like many species that produce many offspring, death is a fact of life. How is our current situation any different from that found in the wild? I’m pleased you all care so much, but why is it considered our duty to relieve pain and suffering to levels below what could be considered natural? \n\nI’m not interested in getting into a slanging match over this, if you’re not interested in what I think we’re valid points then just say so, I see no reason to turn it into something personal. <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: -->  <!-- s:toilet: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_toilet.gif\" alt=\":toilet:\" title=\"toilet\" /><!-- s:toilet: -->','',0,'gA==','1zvyvxga',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14129,1726,19,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158920185,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;DairyNZ&quot;:2jwid9ns][quote:2jwid9ns]So, you\'re in the \'dairy profession\'? Please, do expound.[/quote:2jwid9ns]\nOnly because you asked so nicely; We’re contracted to milk 700 cows on 233ha, we are seasonal supply, an all grass milking platform with brassicas during winter. Looking at 430ms/cow around 1250ms/ha this year. We are located below the Takitimu Mountain Range, named after the ancient M&#257;ori migration waka.\n\nLike many species dogs are prolific breeders, it’s survival of the species all we’ve done is to change the criteria, as to who lives and who dies. Like many species that produce many offspring, death is a fact of life. How is our current situation any different from that found in the wild? I’m pleased you all care so much, but why is it considered our duty to relieve pain and suffering to levels below what could be considered natural?\n\nMy ‘witty’ reply was a satirical response. Why do we feel it’s somehow our duty to control everything?[/quote:2jwid9ns]\n\n\nWhy do you feel it your duty to control cows? Cows do not want to be dominated by the strange creature called \'man\'. They want to be left alone and mate naturally at their own will and pace. Why do \'men\' feel the need to rape cows and steal their milk that was intended for the cow\'s babies? Can you imagine being impregnated over and over again? The \'dairy\' industry has perverted the female reproductive system. \n\nI\'ll ask again, does NZ not have a dog overpopulation problem at the rate of dogs being killed rampantly because there are not enough homes for them? That is the primary logic behind neutering and spaying. Can you imagine what it must be like for a puppy to be born only to end up being killed by having a needle shoved in their little hearts and injected with poison?','',0,'gA==','2jwid9ns',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14133,1726,19,938,0,'219.88.0.198',1158924791,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:1j9m3f9r]Why do you feel it your duty to control cows? Cows do not want to be dominated by the strange creature called \'man\'. They want to be left alone and mate naturally at their own will and pace.[/quote:1j9m3f9r]\nI certainly don’t feel compelled to control cows, it is a lifestyle that I’ve grown to enjoy. Let’s be honest, we don’t really know what the cows want or any animal for that matter. I certainly don’t believe they understand the concept of domination, rape or stealing. 99% of the time all a cow seems to want and care for is food.\n\n[quote:1j9m3f9r]Why do \'men\' feel the need to rape cows and steal their milk that was intended for the cow\'s babies?[/quote:1j9m3f9r]\nWho knows what or who had in mind when they designed cows, I don’t believe in god or a higher being. Are we or are we not part of nature? Creatures evolve, they’ve been shown to go from swimming in the sea to walking on land, should evolution stop with us? It’s not like the calves go thirsty.\n\n[quote:1j9m3f9r]I\'ll ask again, does NZ not have a dog overpopulation problem at the rate of dogs being killed rampantly because there are not enough homes for them?[/quote:1j9m3f9r]\nI note the word ‘problem’, might it only be a problem because we’ve invited these animals into our homes, now we refuse to accept the consequences or our new found responsibilities. Maybe it’s my atheist beliefs but I believe intervention is just that, we remove their reproductive organs, or we destroy their young. I don’t believe there is a right answer; if we can’t leave them alone then we’d better face the consequences. To answer your question; yes we have more dogs than we would like, but it’s only a problem until you find their death disturbing.\n\n[quote:1j9m3f9r]Can you imagine what it must be like for a puppy to be born only to end up being killed by having a needle shoved in their little hearts and injected with poison?[/quote:1j9m3f9r]\nNo I can’t, but it sure sounds kinder than what nature had in mind.\n\nI struggle with these answers, I mean do we just let everything go and leave them to get on with it or do we intervene as much as possible to give them what we would perceive as a better life. That’s the problem, it can only ever be about what we want.','',0,'gA==','1j9m3f9r',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14143,1726,19,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158939634,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:4fy0rov5]I certainly don’t feel compelled to control cows, it is a lifestyle that I’ve grown to enjoy. Let’s be honest, we don’t really know what the cows want or any animal for that matter. I certainly don’t believe they understand the concept of domination, rape or stealing. 99% of the time all a cow seems to want and care for is food. [/quote:4fy0rov5]\n\nWhat is it about taking a cow\'s milk that you \'enjoy\'? It sounds like you are in denial. I think we can accurately say that animals don\'t want to be treated like machines. \n\n[quote:4fy0rov5]Who knows what or who had in mind when they designed cows, I don’t believe in god or a higher being. Are we or are we not part of nature? Creatures evolve, they’ve been shown to go from swimming in the sea to walking on land, should evolution stop with us? It’s not like the calves go thirsty. [/quote:4fy0rov5]\n\nIf you are going to envoke God, I think we can safely say that animals were designed to be self contained and do not need humans to breed them and steal their milk that would otherwise be suckled by their young. If you are going with an atheist/evolutionist perspective, I think we have evidence that cows have evolved to produce milk for their babies and their babies will indeed suckle. Religion really does not have a place in this conversation, empirical evidence does. Why don\'t you set the cows free in a field and see if they return to you. My guess is they will never return to you. \n\n[quote:4fy0rov5]I note the word ‘problem’, might it only be a problem because we’ve invited these animals into our homes, now we refuse to accept the consequences or our new found responsibilities. Maybe it’s my atheist beliefs but I believe intervention is just that, we remove their reproductive organs, or we destroy their young. I don’t believe there is a right answer; if we can’t leave them alone then we’d better face the consequences. To answer your question; yes we have more dogs than we would like, but it’s only a problem until you find their death disturbing. [/quote:4fy0rov5]\n\nI don\'t believe in euthanizing animals and personally I volunteer at a no-kill shelter. The sad reality is that animals are being euthanized because there are not enough good homes for them. Neutering and spaying is a valid solution to the problem. \n\n[quote:4fy0rov5]No I can’t, but it sure sounds kinder than what nature had in mind. \n\nI struggle with these answers, I mean do we just let everything go and leave them to get on with it or do we intervene as much as possible to give them what we would perceive as a better life. That’s the problem, it can only ever be about what we want.[/quote:4fy0rov5]\n\nBecause dogs have been domesticated, we have it in our ability to reduce the number of casualties resulting from euthanasia. Obviously, people need to quit rampant breeding and adopt homeless animals. Once all the homeless dogs have homes we can go from there. Neutering and spaying are methods of keeping animals from being born to suffer and die which, surely, is what they would want. I can\'t imagine a dog wanting to be born only to live in a cage and then euthanized or a parenting dog to want that for their offspring. In an ideal world things would be different and that is a world we must strive for. Lending the animals a helping hand, not a hurting hand, in the mean time is, in my opinion, our obligation.','',0,'gA==','4fy0rov5',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14161,1726,19,444,0,'68.76.246.60',1158952572,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','So confused, sorry if I\'m on the wrong track.\n\nDairy - I agree that spay/neutering is not an ideal, but are you stating that because there is not an  ideal solution, we should just continue to breed dogs?\n\nAnd our current situation is different then that in the wild because ppl are forcing their dogs to breed.  This causes undo suffering for the dog parents, as well as an uncontrolled population where 80% of all dogs will die in a shelter.  As I understand, In the wild, only the Alpha female breeds.\n\n\nAnd, a heartstick kinder then what nature had in mind for a puppy?\n\nI don\'t think so.','',0,'gA==','rxbg3zht',1,0,'',444,0,0),(14167,1726,19,897,0,'72.18.106.8',1158955455,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks for the help Seamoss. I\'m having a bit of a hard time understanding where he\'s going with his debate also.','',0,'gA==','3byzkuu4',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14175,1726,19,938,0,'210.54.230.227',1158966049,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','This is all getting rather off topic, but I suppose dairy farming is like any farming, you’re taking nature and tweaking it to increase production and efficiency. It requires a broad understanding of animals, plants and machines and can be very challenging in all these aspects. As we start to understand the world around us we become fascinated, we learn to change our environment to suit us rather than being enslaved to it, that’s the gift of intellect. We’ve been doing it from the first time we dug a hole to save berry’s for less fruitful times.\n\n[quote:1hm2yon5]I think we can safely say that animals were designed to be self contained[/quote:1hm2yon5]\nI don’t believe any species is as you put it ‘self contained’, we are links in a chain like any other animal.\n\n[quote:1hm2yon5]I think we have evidence that cows have evolved to produce milk for their babies and their babies will indeed suckle.[/quote:1hm2yon5]\nAnd now they have evolved with our help to provide milk for us also, it’s a great partnership much like a bee and a flower.\n\n[quote:1hm2yon5]Why don\'t you set the cows free in a field and see if they return to you. My guess is they will never return to you.[/quote:1hm2yon5]\nIf they we’re in need of something they most probably would, I’d say the majority of them would perish if left unattended.\n\n[quote:1hm2yon5]Neutering and spaying is a valid solution to the problem.[/quote:1hm2yon5]\nYou’re probably right but it’s not that black and white.\n\n[quote:1hm2yon5]And our current situation is different then that in the wild because ppl are forcing their dogs to breed. This causes undo suffering for the dog parents, as well as an uncontrolled population where 80% of all dogs will die in a shelter.[/quote:1hm2yon5] \nMost people seem to want a dog for a particular reason of a particular size and shape to fit specific criteria. It’s no longer the fittest healthiest best hunters that survive, we’ve changed the criteria. The person in this thread is breeding dogs that are in demand, it’s those dogs that don’t fit our criteria we should be putting a stop to.\n\n[quote:1hm2yon5]I understand, In the wild, only the Alpha female breeds.[/quote:1hm2yon5]\nI can’t see us ever allowing dogs to return to the wild, does this alpha female thing apply to domesticated dogs?','',0,'gA==','1hm2yon5',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14176,1726,19,897,0,'66.44.192.207',1158971363,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','===============================================\nDairyNZ, please cut us a break and send us to a sanctuary so we can live out our lives in peace. We want the same thing you want, freedom. We do not want to be treated like machines. We want to live out our lives in a big, open field with our children. Our milk is for our children, not you. Humans are the only species to drink milk after infancy and of another species, it\'s not natural and you are perverting nature. Would you drink dog milk? We don\'t like to have machines hooked up to us, they hurt. We don\'t like to be impregnated over and over again by you; we like to choose when we want to conceive and whom we want to conceive with. We know you want to make money but there are other ways that are not evil. Have a heart and drink soymilk instead. It\'s healthy, pus free and does not render you emotionally bankrupt. If you continue to steal our milk we will be forced to reap the ultimate revenge and give you heart disease like so many others that have stolen and drank our milk. \n===============================================\n         o\n       o\n     o\n\n(___)\n( 00 )\n{  .. }\n\n-signed, the cows','',0,'gA==','3vmm2891',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14195,1726,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1159022242,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','BRAVO MADLABRAT!!\n                 There\'s the truth......plain &amp; simple, beautifully stated.\n\n    Let\'s all brace ourselves for the lame excuses from &quot;the farmer&quot;\nthat will no doubt follow. \n\n   But you know what. Deep in his heart.....he know you\'re right. \n     I could be wrong but I think our farmer friend has a conscience\nand he feels on some level he\'s not living the way he wants\n\n    But we shall see......thanks again for a good job Madlabrat!','',0,'gA==','1rgmuggg',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14197,1726,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1159029541,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','PS..LOVE YOUR ART WORK <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','1znvmplu',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14198,1726,19,897,0,'66.44.192.207',1159032321,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks Ginger but I stole it from someone!  I did modify it to add my personal touch. I tried to do a whole cow instead of just a head but when I hit the submit button it would scoot the body of the cow over to the left margine so I settled for the head.  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nI think you\'re right about DairyNZ, surely he knows deep down that what he\'s doing to the cows is just plain wrong. No doubt, he grew up not thinking a lot about it because lack of concern for animals is inculcated into most people at a young age and unless we have an independent thought alarm button, a lot of people do not really think about it. It\'s the people who know better and continue that worry me the most.','',0,'gA==','3ve2pl15',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14202,1726,19,1015,0,'205.188.116.201',1159037910,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;madlabrat&quot;:1rfnsee7]Thanks Ginger but I stole it from someone!  I did modify it to add my personal touch. I tried to do a whole cow instead of just a head but when I hit the submit button it would scoot the body of the cow over to the left margine so I settled for the head.  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nI think you\'re right about DairyNZ, surely he knows deep down that what he\'s doing to the cows is just plain wrong. No doubt, he grew up not thinking a lot about it because lack of concern for animals is inculcated into most people at a young age and unless we have an independent thought alarm button, a lot of people do not really think about it. It\'s the people who know better and continue that worry me the most.[/quote:1rfnsee7]\n\n    Yes.....they are the scariest of all. And probably not going to change.\n  I guess all we can do is try to make them feel like the outcasts they\nwill surely be in the future. I know future children will read about these\ntimes that we\'re living in today and go........&quot;Ewwwe.....can you imagine\npeople back then actually used to eat animals!!!&quot; and someone else will\nsay....yes it must have been awful! Did you know they actually used to\ndrink animal milk?&quot; Followed by more EWES &amp; YUCKS or whatever the\nterms for disgusting will be then......let\'s say in 50 to 75 years...ya think?','',0,'gA==','1rfnsee7',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14210,1726,19,938,0,'210.54.230.248',1159050452,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I don’t really want to get dragged into this ‘Is dairy farming evil’ debate, but because you seem to be completely ignoring the original topic, then lets give it a shot!\n\n[quote:13oinghi]DairyNZ, please cut us a break and send us to a sanctuary so we can live out our lives in peace.[/quote:13oinghi]\nUnfortunately that’s out of my hands; there are no more sanctuaries left I think you’ll find them under six inches of concrete. What little native forest is left is carefully managed and would do little to sustain you and your offspring.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]We want the same thing you want, freedom.[/quote:13oinghi]\nThat I couldn’t offer, even if I wanted to. For as long as there are cities and roads, you’d always have restraints and restrictions imposed on where you could and could not live and what you could and couldn’t eat.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]We do not want to be treated like machines.[/quote:13oinghi]\nFair enough, but you do like routine that you’ll have to admit.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]We want to live out our lives in a big, open field with our children.[/quote:13oinghi]\nI hope you thought about this properly, if it’s field you wish for who’ll manage the pasture for you and where will you get water from? How open where you thinking about, a field has boundaries which would severely infringe on your freedom.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]Humans are the only species to drink milk after infancy and of another species, it\'s not natural and you are perverting nature.[/quote:13oinghi]\nAre you saying that everything humans do, that is unique to our species is unnatural and should be stopped? Why do you feel this way, sounds to me like you’re jealous.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]Would you drink dog milk?[/quote:13oinghi]\nYes, and goat’s, sheep’s, horse’s the list goes on.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]We don\'t like to have machines hooked up to us, they hurt.[/quote:13oinghi]\nNow that’s a lie, I know when they hurt because you just kick them off straight away. The sheds vacuum levels and pulsation rate is computer controlled and set to optimum levels. Anyway at the last HT your SCC count is very low, if you didn’t like it you brain wouldn’t release the oxytocin for milk let down and your SCC’s would be through the roof.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]We don\'t like to be impregnated over and over again by you; we like to choose when we want to conceive and whom we want to conceive with.[/quote:13oinghi]\nOk I could give you a list of available technicians in the area with a photograph of each one and let you choose who A.I’s you, if you prefer that. You would normally have just the one calf per year, which is no more than we ask of you. It’s all linked to day length, it’s why sheep can only get pregnant at certain times of the year.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]We know you want to make money but there are other ways that are not evil.[/quote:13oinghi]\nBy evil I assume you mean ‘morally bad’, morals are derived from personal conscience and I can assure you mine is clear.\n\n[quote:13oinghi]Have a heart and drink soymilk instead. It\'s healthy, pus free and does not render you emotionally bankrupt.[/quote:13oinghi]\nWhat about the high levels of phytooestrogens, I was born male and I’d really like to stay that way thanks.\n\n[url:13oinghi]http&#58;//www&#46;quantumbalancing&#46;com/news/soy%20dangers&#46;htm[/url:13oinghi]\n\n[quote:13oinghi]If you continue to steal our milk we will be forced to reap the ultimate revenge and give you heart disease like so many others that have stolen and drank our milk.[/quote:13oinghi]\nNot a problem with me, I get plenty of exercise running around the farm seeing to your every need.','',0,'kA==','13oinghi',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14214,1726,19,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1159052794,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','is that true about Soy,  I never knew that.','',0,'kA==','3q886di4',1,0,'',643,0,0),(14222,1726,19,897,0,'66.44.192.207',1159063217,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','DairyNZ, you will obviously go to great lengths to defend what you do to animals. I think it\'s a shame and I feel so sorry for the cows you torment.','',0,'kA==','310a33qu',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14239,1726,19,444,0,'75.34.6.48',1159106856,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There\'s some Alcoholics  I know. They seem to have excuses for why they can not do positive things.  The excuses are always because positive things are not optimal.  &quot;I can not go to work because then I do not get enough sleep&quot;\n\nAnyway, that\'s what this thread reminds me of.\n\n[url]Unfortunately that’s out of my hands; there are no more sanctuaries left I think you’ll find them under six inches of concrete. What little native forest is left is carefully managed and would do little to sustain you and your offspring.[/url]','',0,'EA==','o8olioyw',1,0,'',444,0,0),(14250,1726,19,897,0,'66.44.192.207',1159113927,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Very valid point and well said, Seamoss. People will go to illogical extremes to make excuses or promote their behavior.','',0,'EA==','2doi8mtn',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14644,1726,19,1334,0,'210.49.132.30',1159567946,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Come on guys DairyNZ is being very polite and respectful in his responses, you could atleast do the same in return. I think he has made valid points and he\'s doing the best he can with his animals. Its good to see a dairy farmer that actually seems to care about his cows, i mean he\'s joined this site hasnt he? My only question is do the cows get any exercise? \n\nMany dairy farmers do care about their cows, have you guys heard of the invention a dairy farmer made? Water beds for the cows, he has even made a business out of it, hundreds of dariy farms have been ordering and installing these things. And for what? Nothing more than for the animals comfort.\n\nI do agree there\'s sure to be dairy farms out there that do the wrong thing, but we need to realise not every one is like that.','',0,'EA==','occi7fnt',1,0,'',1334,0,0),(14654,1726,19,897,0,'72.18.97.247',1159568909,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','KrystleLuvsHerBabies, you may not be aware of what \'dairy\' cows endure. Here are a few websites to provide more information:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.milksucks.com/\">http://www.milksucks.com/</a><!-- m -->\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.unhappycows.com/\">http://www.unhappycows.com/</a><!-- m -->\n\nAlso, I suggest the book, \'The Sexual Politics of Meat\' by Carol Adams:\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.vegansworldnetwork.org/topic-book-sexual-politics-of-meat.html\">http://www.vegansworldnetwork.org/topic ... -meat.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nYou can buy a cheap copy on Ebay.','',0,'EA==','15b89ar0',1,0,'',897,0,0),(14655,1134,27,686,0,'172.206.81.59',1159569401,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hi guys not been on here for a while been busy with boycotts on PnG. Have a new one for u on the bastards ,if u dont know u will now,the bastards own masterfoods now so that means tough shit if you eat mars bars ,boycott them, i have a demo n colection im doing in december the ones i took part in in july were very sucessful. we have collected over 10,000 signatures,so keep boycotting pringles fairy,iams,pedigree chum ,purina,masterfoods gillette,also they now have shares and own  or are behind most perfumes n aftershaves. for any info contact max newton at uncage the rage.com.or .uk,or just search uncage the rage.\n\n\ntake care keep fighting <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'EA==','nz5j5c89',1,0,'',686,0,0),(14656,1726,19,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1159569662,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Hi Krystal,\n        see, here\'s the thing. Most of us believe that animals should be treated as if they have feelings, because we honestly believe that they do.\n\n       You probably don\'t have any kids yet &amp; neither do I but I still know\nthat ALL mothers suffer horribly when they lose their babies.\n\n    Dairy cattle are kept pregnant all their lives and their male calves are taken away at birth for slaughter.\n\n     I personally think that\'s a horrible thing to do to any mother. Animal\nmothers suffer just as much as human mothers when their babies are taken away. \n     The whole business is horribly cruel.  If you ever hear the cries of both mother &amp; calf as their seperated I bet you won\'t soon forget it.\n\n      So that\'s why politness doesn\'t really mean all that much...politeness\nis just words......','',0,'EA==','12f8ij13',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14662,1726,19,1334,0,'210.49.132.30',1159571810,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks for the links :D\n\nI can definately understand where your coming from with the separation, i remeber hearing about a cow that escaped and traveled miles just to get back to her baby. <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->\n\nI will definately read more about it since yes i dont really know as much as i want to. But at the same time it seems DairyNZ\'s has good intentions.','',0,'EA==','13piolox',1,0,'',1334,0,0),(14696,1780,27,674,0,'195.92.168.168',1159626751,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','The Vegan Question','What makes a vegan? The only thing I have in common with a vegan thousands of miles away is our ethic. Where did this come from? Why can two people watch a video, react with disgust but only one take action. I know some people are move motivated and caring then others but there must be something else. I\'m not suggesting vegans are special, sent by God or something like that but is there something in the mind? All none bullshit replies are welcomed!  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->  Thanks','',0,'EA==','25u2hd48',1,0,'',674,0,0),(14700,1780,27,369,0,'70.108.142.135',1159629293,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think it depends. Like you said two people watch a video, then they are both disgusted yet one takes action while the other resumes their normal life before the video. I think one possibilty is the environment in which they were raised, and how welcomed or common the idea of animals rights was. Though  this is a faulty suggestion, because I know several ara\'s who had never heard or fathomed the possibility that animals might have interests of their own until they were in their teens. So I think for some, they might naturally be more inclined to go vegan and just naturally compassionate. Like Tom Regan put it, the &quot;Davincians&quot; have always connected with animals, and loved them, whereas &quot;Muddlers&quot; have the faintest glimmer and understanding of animal consciousness for a long part of their life. So it might just depend on each situation.','',0,'EA==','3m9vhvbk',1,0,'',369,0,0),(14722,1726,19,938,0,'210.54.230.151',1159651163,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','As intelligent as we believe we are, I think sometimes we can’t see the forest because the trees are blocking our view...\n\nGoing back to the dog debate for a second. Firstly why do we have so many unwanted dogs? Well for the plain and simple reason that we don’t let them die, we keep them alive until we decide if and when they should die. Not only that but we choose who will die not by following nature, not by keeping the whole process as natural as possible, but by tweaking it for our own gratification.\n\nNature is pain and suffering, it’s these harsh realities that keep everything in tow; our natural world relies upon it. Animals endure physical pain and suffering everyday and most of it has nothing what so ever to do with the human race, whether we are here or not the suffering must, and will continue.\n\nIf you think about it for a moment it’s more natural for a dog to breed and for the pups to be killed because there is no place for them in this world, than for the dogs to be surgically altered and for them not to breed at all. A bitch or a cow will not choose who they mate with; the male of the species has the say over that. Basically who ever happens to be available, or who ever win’s the fight will do. Remember the fittest and strongest survive to live and breed, the weakest must perish the survival of the species relies upon it.\n\nI suppose those of us that live amongst nature first hand, who witness the harsh realities of natures way, do become some what immune to its presence and accept, or more to the point understand a little more. I don’t believe we were put on this earth to relieve pain and suffering, so why must we intervene, why must we restructure something of such beauty? Perhaps it’s because we’re not as intelligent as we at first believed.\n\nAs ‘[i:2yamp8of][b:2yamp8of]Arthur C. Clarke[/b:2yamp8of][/i:2yamp8of]’ once wrote;\n[color=blue:2yamp8of]It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.[/color:2yamp8of]\n\n[color=blue:2yamp8of]I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority.[/color:2yamp8of]  [b:2yamp8of][i:2yamp8of]E. B. White[/i:2yamp8of][/b:2yamp8of]','',0,'Yg==','2yamp8of',1,0,'',938,0,0),(14737,1780,27,1103,0,'208.102.59.237',1159661795,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I just started the vegan thing so it will be long till i am a vegan.','',0,'Yg==','2illqm0i',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(14748,243,12,1103,0,'208.102.59.237',1159669825,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Bush makes me sick. He is a fucking retard. How would he feel if the horses slaughtered him.','',0,'Yg==','1b8z117g',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(14752,243,12,1031,0,'210.246.63.228',1159673649,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','JOKE\n\nthere were 3 people on a plane. A little schoolgirl, pope and bush.\nThe plane was crashing, and there were only 2 parachutes.Bush says &quot;i am the leader of the greatest, most fantastic country in the world. I am the best leader and deserve to have a parachute&quot; he grabs a pack and jumps.\nThe pope says to the little girl &quot;you have the other one, you have your whole life ahead of you&quot; \n\nThe girl says &quot;actually theres 2 parachutes. Mr bush took my schoolbag.&quot;','',0,'Yg==','38vn8bw3',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(14755,243,12,1103,0,'208.102.59.237',1159676274,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','lol. I like that one. I can\'t believe that I voted for that fucker. I was young and politically unaware. I was 18 know I know better.','',0,'Yg==','3mon3n74',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(14756,243,12,1031,0,'210.246.40.43',1159676453,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','When i can vote, its totally green party!\n\nI like my country, its run by a woman','',0,'Yg==','3jld270p',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(14761,243,12,897,0,'72.18.97.247',1159705768,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I realize this thread is old but I wanted to share a video since this thread is about wild horses. I watched this video last year. In the video you see 2 wild horses come out of nowhere and socialize with the poor horses who are not free. This is an amazing video. How can anyone kill a wild horse? Bastards!!! My Mom \'bought\' a horse for me as a child and I only rode the horse one time. I insisted that he run free in pasture and refused to ride him or take \'riding\' lessons as was planned for me. \n\nhere\'s the video: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.supershorts.org.uk/view.html?id=512\">http://www.supershorts.org.uk/view.html?id=512</a><!-- m -->\n\nThis is making me think of Maria Daines song, \'I Wanna Run Free\'\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Musicians/Maria-Daines/MariaDaines.htm\">http://animalliberationfront.com/Saints ... Daines.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'Yg==','2u2ck73a',1,1159732511,'',897,1,0),(14765,243,12,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1159712022,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','as for president Bush,  he has gone through more in the last 8 years then any other president or at least since FDR\n\n-  9/11\n-  terrible economy\n- afganistan\n- Iraq\n- Katrina\n\n\nSO far,  the economy has made a complete turn around,  Al Quada leaders are mostly dead,  Iraq has a democratic elected government,  New Orlenes is starting to get rebuilt,  Unemployment is at very low rate, and the DOW Jones is above 11,000.  \n\n\nDont get me wrong,  I am not a George Bush is the greatest president, type of person, but I think he has done an above average job.\n\nHe has had to make some tough choices and when you have to make those choices you are never going to make everyone happy.  I can never understand how people judge political people on one issue.','',0,'Yg==','40fifsq7',1,0,'',643,0,0),(14766,243,12,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1159724539,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'m not a Bush fan either......but please........please.......don\'t wish anything bad to happen to him.\n\n    If he was killed or something, we\'d have to end up with Cheney running\nthe country.......can you imagine that???\n\n     I\'d have to take the dogs &amp; kitties and move to New Zealand!\n\n   Animalloversister........are you hearing me? I hope you have a spare room <!-- s:loudlaff: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/loudlaff.gif\" alt=\":loudlaff:\" title=\"loud laugh\" /><!-- s:loudlaff: -->','',0,'Yg==','h2x1wsth',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14767,243,12,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1159724686,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;madlabrat&quot;:od44i781]I realize this thread is old but I wanted to share a video since this thread is about wild horses. I watched this video last year. In the video you see 2 wild horses come out of nowhere and socialize with the poor horses who are not free. This is an amazing video. How can anyone kill a wild horse? Bastards!!! My Mom \'bought\' a horse for me as a child and I only rode the horse one time. I insisted that he run free in pasture and refused to ride him or take \'riding\' lessons as was planned for me. [/quote:od44i781]\n\n   I think that\'s so beautiful!! Even at a young age you understood. WOW\nNo wonder I like you so much!','',0,'gA==','od44i781',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14795,1012,3,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1159751226,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','How are you going to get all the amino acids?\n\nHow are you going to get your protein?\n\nThe famous quote: &quot;Tree hugging hippies&quot;\n\nAbout the sasme stuff you all heard.','',0,'gA==','2ifthbgg',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(14804,243,12,1031,0,'210.246.40.152',1159755456,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','lol i think an even better place than NZ for animals would be somewhere like nepal, because this country is small, and we have a lot of spare area for the size of our country, but nepal has thousands of square kilmetres, where deer run free, safe from attack.... <!-- s:pray: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_pray.gif\" alt=\":pray:\" title=\"pray\" /><!-- s:pray: -->','',0,'gA==','q6z08m0h',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(14809,1012,3,1256,0,'24.196.244.244',1159769997,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','my dad asked me when i first told him i went vegetarian &quot;whats next, are you going to stop shaving your arm pits?&quot;  fucking idiot.','',0,'gA==','n1evdr90',1,0,'',1256,0,0),(14810,1780,27,1165,0,'216.244.38.124',1159770548,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I still have to call myself &quot;lacto-ovo vegetarian&quot; because I occasionally use [some] dairy products.  But I\'m oh-so-close to being vegan.','',0,'','zxmhyyn9',1,0,'',1165,0,0),(14816,1012,3,1015,0,'64.12.116.130',1159800441,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I wonder if these parents who get all freaked out about their kids being\nagainst violence to animals, in other words &quot;VEGAN&quot; ever take a good hard look at what\'s going on around them?\n\n     Are the kids on drugs? Are they going out beating up &amp; sometimes\nkilling homeless people just for kicks? Are they in gangs or getting drunk\nand driving?\n\n     Let me tell you something......if the &quot;worst&quot; thing your kid does is\ndecide he or she wants to be kind to animals......you got yourself a damn good kid and you should appreciate him/her....instead to nagging\n\n      Sheech!!!','',0,'','i28yjgwi',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(14858,1796,31,889,0,'86.140.115.238',1159825144,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','delete files MORE securely...','Many people think that when a file is deleted, it\'s gone. Not at all. It\'s *easy* as pie to track/recover files that were &quot;deleted&quot; from your hard drive months, even years, before.  \n\nTip: Put any files you want to keep onto disc and RESET your system if there\'s ever been any, err.. sensitive files on your hd. Have an explanation for why it was reset. (Better option if its a real risk: smash/burn your pc and buy another one). \n\nYou can delete files more securely by \'overwriting\' them using the \'cleaner\' function here. Choose the option NSA (7passes) for most secure overwrite. \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.ccleaner.com/\">http://www.ccleaner.com/</a><!-- m -->','',0,'','3kjxcs2a',1,0,'',889,0,0),(14860,1796,31,1311,0,'86.134.17.130',1159825341,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','The best program available for a free space wipe is PGP it also wipes files.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.pgp.com\">http://www.pgp.com</a><!-- m -->','',0,'','s58da5i7',1,1159871834,'',1311,1,0),(14872,1780,27,1031,0,'210.246.40.92',1159831380,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->  <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->  <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->  <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->','',0,'','3ubyv669',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(14876,1796,31,1311,0,'86.134.17.130',1159871801,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I tested this out and was able to recover image files from large HDs.','',0,'','2cpr10oz',1,0,'',1311,0,0),(14884,1203,17,1248,0,'137.240.136.82',1159894570,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I used to own a pit bull and I was in and out of court on 3 seperate occasions fighting to keep him.\n\nI lived in a city that had BSL and I didn\'t know until I came home and found a pink slip on my door saying my dog had been impounded.\n\nIt was my fault for not checking the law before I moved, but it wasn\'t my dog\'s fault, so being that, I fought as hard as I could to bring him back home.\n\nI won.\n\nThe 2 things I think really helped me out was an opinion from a &quot;respected city official&quot; (as far as the judge is concerned) and my statement making him really think about how ignorant the law is.\n\nThe animal control officer actually came to court to defend me on the 3rd court visit.  He stood right in front of the judge and told him &quot;he loves being up front with us, he keeps us company and greets everybody with a wag and a lick that comes through the door.  He loves to play ball with all the other dogs and even tries to get the cats to play ball with him.  We have no reason to believe this dog is used for any illegal purposes, is a risk to anybody in the right, and judging by signed vet papers from frequent check-ups at Banfield Pet Hospital (at PetSmart) showing him in A+ health in ALL catagories across the board and the fact that he is neutured, shows that the owner has respect for his dog and obviously shows great love and care.&quot;\n\nI had printed out quite a few stories about how some stories in the paper and on the news are twisted and blamed on a pit bull, some aren\'t even pit bulls or anything close, but the stories are changed into a pit bull to all of a sudden make local headlines. The judge seemed surprised this was happening.  In almost my exact words, I told the judge: &quot;Sir, these laws are here because of statistics, and nothing more.  Statistically, pit bulls are a dangerous dog.  Now I am no way a racist, but statistically african americans are the most dangerous race.  I can\'t think of a single city that bans blacks completely because of these statistics, let alone euthanize them for living within certain city limits.  To ban and demolish pit bulls makes as much sense as doing the same to the African-American community... Sounds kind of ignorant when put into comparison, it\'s the same situation, just a different story.&quot;\n\nThat night, in between me and my wall, just as always, he was laying on top of the covers, deep asleep, snoring away.','',0,'','2hmlrhhq',1,0,'',1248,0,0),(14885,1796,31,1248,0,'137.240.136.82',1159894767,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Working for the Department of Defense, I use a government version of WipeDrive which seems to work really well.  The program can be purchased at [url:rwhq8ikf]http&#58;//www&#46;whitecanyon&#46;com/[/url:rwhq8ikf].','',0,'EA==','rwhq8ikf',1,0,'',1248,0,0),(14894,1780,27,674,0,'195.92.168.164',1159899834,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I forgot to put in fruitarian, though i doubt any one who practices that is on here-prove me wrong!','',0,'EA==','1a1opjah',1,0,'',674,0,0),(14896,1780,27,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1159900167,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am going vegan. I feel more energized. TGFVD.','',0,'EA==','aftxdhq5',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(14907,1012,3,1245,0,'74.68.36.192',1159910833,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Stupid comments from anti AR people','[quote=&quot;Maisiepaisie&quot;:hg7ppqfs]As someone who regularly does information stalls, I get to hear a lot of dumb comments from those who oppose us. Please post all stupid comments here. Here are some I can think of right now:\n\nWhat about helping people?\n\nYou\'re all terrorists!\n\nWould you rather we test on humans?\n\nI couldn\'t not eat meat.\n\nReturn that body/Where have you hidden that body?[/quote:hg7ppqfs]\n\n\n\ni have an answer to each...\n\n&quot;What about helping people?&quot;\n\nstarvation and diseases are going on in several countries around the world, BUT  its not INFLICTED by people, the abuse of animal comes from humans,...  if a human did that to another human theyd end up in jail, \n\n&quot;You\'re all terrorists!&quot;\n\nwere terrorists? arent u the kind of people that supports brutal beatings to animals?  \n\n&quot;Would you rather we test on humans?&quot; \n\nanimal tests are almost never accurate, according to studies only 2% of human diseases apply to animals,  thx to believing in animal tests most of the meds people used to get were actually worse for the human then the disease itself, its the new technology thats more effective.. wayy more, i mean come the fuck on i dont see any cure for aids, and the cure from hepatitis did NOT come out right from animal testing\n\n&quot;I couldn\'t not eat meat.&quot;\n\nwhy not? u could stand to take care of health benefits,  theres so much food in the world what do u need meat more?\n\n&quot;Return that body/Where have you hidden that body?&quot;\n\nthis.. i have no clu wtf hes talkin about','',0,'gA==','hg7ppqfs',1,0,'',1245,0,0),(14911,1203,17,444,0,'75.33.250.36',1159915378,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Since I posted that, I have done a lot of research and gotten more involved.  BSL is just ridiculous!  Did you all know BSL can also effect mixed breeds?  HOW CAN SOMEONE SAY YOUR MIXED BREED LOOKS LIKE A BULLY BREED AND IS THEREFORE BANNED!   Besides pits they are going after rots, mastiffs, german shepherds, labs, chow chows, and i\'m sure there are others - it just depends where you live.  If you\'re against BSL you MUST find out the laws in your state, contact all of your reps.  I could go on forever on this subject now, but instead just read this:\n\n.) Although there are no accurate or even near accurate census records for dogs in the U.S., in some populations pit bulls are estimated to comprise some 30-40f the dog population, making it by FAR the most popular breed. Considering that there are an estimated 53,000,000 dogs in the U.S., and assuming that pit bulls make up 20f that population, there would be approximately 10,600,000 pit bulls in our society. In 1998, five pit bulls were involved in 2 fatal attacks. That is roughly ONE dog out of 2,120,000 - or .00004716 percent of the pit bull Population.\n\n3.) Over the 32-year period from 1965-2001, Pit Bulls have been blamed for/accused of an average of 2.48 human fatalities per year. \n\n4.) About 40 people (children) per year die by drowning in 5-gallon water pails. A person, during their lifetime, is 16 times more likely to drown in a 5-gallon water pail than to be killed by a Pit Bull.\n\n5.) Approximately 50 children in the US are killed every year by their cribs - 25 times the number of children and adults killed by Pit Bulls.\n\n6.) Approximately 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts. Therefore, you are more than 60 TIMES MORE LIKELY to be killed by a PALM TREE than a Pit Bull.\n\n7.) Each year, 350 people drown in their bathtubs. You are 151 times more likely to be killed by your bathtub than you are by a Pit Bull.\n\n<!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) --> Every year, more than 2,000 children in the U.S. are killed by their parents or guardians either through abuse or neglect. A child is more than 800 times more likely to be killed by their caretaker than by a Pit Bull.\n\n9) It is estimated that 5,000,000 dogs per year are killed in shelters. Since in many places pit bulls make up 30-50f the shelter population, and are less likely to be considered for placement than any other breed, guessing that 25f those dogs killed are pit bulls is a very conservative estimate. Therefore, it can be assumed that roughly 1,250,000 pit bulls are killed per year. Therefore - it is at least a HALF MILLION TIMES MORE LIKELY that a Pit Bull will be killed by a HUMAN than the other way around.\n\n10) The average Number of people killed by a Pit Bull each year is 3.\n\n11) It can be estimated that for every Pit Bull who kills, there are \n10.5 MILLION that DON\'T. This country wants to ban/destroy 10.5 million innocent dogs for the actions of 0.94f its category?','',0,'gA==','37p8usa0',1,0,'',444,0,0),(14919,1780,27,1031,0,'210.246.63.157',1159924206,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thank God For Vegan Diets','',0,'gA==','7wc2niw1',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(14940,477,19,1144,0,'74.237.164.23',1159941466,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','well sadly after my dog got hit by a speeding car they have to stay on chains when i\'m not around because they get out of every fence and run right to the road we are working on building a better fence that they won\'t be able to get out of and be hurt again what i\'m trying to say is i understand people that don\'t want thier pet\'s geting hurt so they chain them cause they get out of all their fences but not if they don\'t spend time with them i feel bad that they have to be chained for the time being and withen a few month\'s it will only be at night and when everyone is gone \nand as for leashs they just keep the pet safe like Ritilin my rescused pup follows me everywhere but when he sees something he wants to play with he doesnt even think before he runs across the street','',0,'gA==','3gqew0jr',1,0,'',1144,0,0),(14944,1796,31,889,0,'86.140.44.160',1159967332,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;fistpittingnork&quot;:kwxwwha0]Working for the Department of Defense, I use a government version of WipeDrive.[/quote:kwxwwha0]\n\nTop security tip: beware of moles!\n\nJeez. We all know that this place is riddled with US/UK government/police shills, but at least be a little more circumspect! Go back to your puppet masters, let them know that you blew your cover and ask them for instructions on how to set up another account.\n\nAt least keep us guessing. It\'s no fun when the moles expose themselves.','',0,'gA==','kwxwwha0',1,0,'',889,0,0),(14948,477,19,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1159976103,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;xXxUser&#91;X]FriendlyxXx&quot;:367gyssp]well sadly after my dog got hit by a speeding car they have to stay on chains when i\'m not around because they get out of every fence and run right to the road we are working on building a better fence that they won\'t be able to get out of and be hurt again what i\'m trying to say is i understand people that don\'t want thier pet\'s geting hurt so they chain them cause they get out of all their fences but not if they don\'t spend time with them i feel bad that they have to be chained for the time being and withen a few month\'s it will only be at night and when everyone is gone \nand as for leashs they just keep the pet safe like Ritilin my rescused pup follows me everywhere but when he sees something he wants to play with he doesnt even think before he runs across the street[/quote:367gyssp]\n\n   Allright.....let\'s hear it, your lame excuse for not keeping your dogs in\nwith the family is................?\n\n    You know, there\'s no law that say one nust have a dog.....so why do you...if you don\'t love them enough to keep them safe INSIDE where you stay????','',0,'gA==','367gyssp',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(15001,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160044871,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Theres this house nobodys living in halfway down my road thats got a power line going to it.Every year a contractor comes back there and bushhogs everything groing under the lines.They cut all the year old trees.I found a rabbit that got cut up laying in the cut brush and trees.After I got the rabbit up and buried it then went to the tractor pulling the bushhog.It was late in the day,wert nobody round.I noticed 2 days ago the tractor had been started but only moved maybe a foot.It was still in the same place yesterday.Maybe it wont work nomore.That wont stop them but does slo them down.Im sure there was other critters killed or hurt just to cut the brush from under the power lines.\nI dont hav any power lines crossing my place and never will.We do some fuked up shit for comfort and covenienc.It aint proper.','',0,'gA==','2yflhc00',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15003,1282,33,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160050376,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','When I geta house I want to recycle the rain water an use it for gardening. I live in a apartment so that is kinda hard.','',0,'gA==','17ivkvdu',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15006,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160051131,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Genevieve&quot;:3dscq1li]When I geta house I want to recycle the rain water an use it for gardening. I live in a apartment so that is kinda hard.[/quote:3dscq1li]\n\n\nThats how I water my garden.I hav 3 out buildings close to my garden by the creek.Water runs off the roofs into a line of 5 gallon bukets,Iv got I reckon 30 bukets.It works rite good cept wen theres a drout.Then I haul it from the creek.','',0,'gA==','3dscq1li',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15011,1282,33,51,0,'69.92.104.216',1160063162,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','A thin paste made of baking soda and water is the best thing for a sting.  Works for skeeters as well.\n\nAs the water evaporates it cools the bite and the soda draws the poison from the bite.','',0,'gA==','340wm9ko',1,0,'',51,0,0),(15014,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160064543,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Iv used that on stings but didnt kno it worked on skeeters.I get bit by them all the time.Thank you kindly.','',0,'gA==','1a1qxc4m',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15018,1282,33,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160068335,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That is the problem skeeters. I will figure it out some how. I will let the give it time to drain in the bucket then immediatly bring it in. Maybe you can try that.','',0,'gA==','1rdz9y4i',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15019,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160068479,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Skeeters can be a problem with the way I do sure enuff.','',0,'gA==','65sm2enq',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15023,1282,33,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160070825,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I hate skeeter bites.','',0,'gA==','1vi0qs5j',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15033,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160073243,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Genevieve&quot;:1jq4xda0]I hate skeeter bites.[/quote:1jq4xda0]\n\nThen we got somthing in common.','',0,'gA==','1jq4xda0',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15035,1282,33,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160073684,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:2az6te70][quote=&quot;Genevieve&quot;:2az6te70]I hate skeeter bites.[/quote:2az6te70]\n\nThen we got somthing in common.[/quote:2az6te70]\n\nI guess we do. I need a natural, eco friendly repelant.','',0,'gA==','2az6te70',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15061,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160131139,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','There are lots.I dont kno the brand names but there are lots of eco frendly repellants.Skin So Soft is spose to keep skeeters off people.I get a catalog selling these things you spose to put in what you catch rain water with.It spose to keep skeeters out.Never used them.','',0,'gA==','3m7i79oi',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15119,69,14,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160233159,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think she is cool.','',0,'gA==','1p2akd33',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15132,69,14,51,0,'69.92.104.216',1160247376,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Celebrities like Pamela stand up in support of these causes for 1 reason only.  It gets them attention.  I don\'t fault PETA for capitalizing on that fact.  If she had true conviction in her beliefs, she\'d practice them in her daily life and with her checkbook...not just when PETA\'s camera is running.','',0,'gA==','2bsndhbn',1,0,'',51,0,0),(15223,69,14,1175,0,'70.55.100.104',1160361734,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','and who says she doesnt?','',0,'gA==','19mleqz0',1,0,'',1175,0,0),(15228,69,14,1031,0,'210.246.63.126',1160369830,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','good point, both of you','',0,'gA==','2ywb145t',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(15254,1796,31,1381,0,'205.188.116.138',1160444427,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','really?','the Govt agency people are really reading message boards like this?  Gee, I would have thought that they had REAL things to do with their time.  Hmmmm the 9-11 incident comes to mind.  This blows my mind, people want to kill Americans, and these agents are sitting around on their fat asses reading message boards of peaceful people.  I heard they only give those jobs to the guys who cant make it doing real field work.','',0,'gA==','35wib7vv',1,0,'',1381,0,0),(15301,243,12,175,0,'69.61.254.61',1160536532,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Genevieve&quot;:1dnushqf]Bush makes me sick. He is a fucking retard. How would he feel if the horses slaughtered him.[/quote:1dnushqf]\n\nAgain, this is a very old thread and misinformation is being spread since the link to the legislation no longer works.  It was not George Bush, it was a bipartisan effort by members of Congress.  Bush had nothing to do with it, and eventually ended up signing the legislation that protected the wild horses when all was said and done.\n\nDo you think &quot;he is a fucking retard&quot; now?','',0,'gA==','1dnushqf',1,0,'',175,0,0),(15308,1830,27,1031,0,'210.246.63.138',1160541823,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','girlfriend magazine','i was reading this issue of it, and it was raving on that being vegetarian isn\'t good, and it was horrible that all the work i put in on educating teenage girls, and one magazine article could ruin that','',0,'gA==','70q8asej',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(15309,1143,26,1408,0,'142.163.240.130',1160541855,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','You know...if they are liberated...and they are sick..well then its fine.  I guess.\n\nBut if they are finally liberated, this means freedom for these animlas.  This shouldn\'t mean death.  Some of these animals are healthy.  Why shouldnt they at least get a chance?  A chance to live.\n\nI believe they should be brought to a shelter that doesnt kill them also.','',0,'gA==','1z429hfw',1,0,'',1408,0,0),(15316,1830,27,1123,0,'84.30.73.160',1160551061,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','ai Loversister <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->  that doesn\'t sounds good  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> \n\n\np.s.: I don\'t read it; first of all it\'s simply not available in the Netherlands. And last but not least I\'m a boy and it\'s a \'\'teenage girls magazine\'\'  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','3cwwntqz',1,0,'',1123,0,0),(15320,243,12,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160560883,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Vader&quot;:1xdzfsmy]\n\nDo you think &quot;he is a fucking retard&quot; now?[/quote:1xdzfsmy]\n\n\nYES','',0,'gA==','1xdzfsmy',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15323,243,12,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1160567249,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','If he did sign it in to law, and I will assume that it is the case,  why does he not get any praise.  The website has a link for Senator Santorum in PA, for his work on the PAWS projects and Santorum is the number 3  republican in the senate.  He is very conservative and he might be even more then Bush is.','',0,'gA==','5zmx3wow',1,0,'',643,0,0),(15329,243,12,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160579177,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If Im rembering rite Bush did sign the bill.Im glad he did.He finally did a good thing.But  it dont make up for all the bad hes done.','',0,'gA==','3565a2my',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15331,243,12,1015,0,'152.163.100.199',1160579580,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:1fc7q9vp]If Im rembering rite Bush did sign the bill.Im glad he did.He finally did a good thing.But  it dont make up for all the bad hes done.[/quote:1fc7q9vp]\n\n   I agree Kriter.......and yet, we must hope nothing happens to him.\n      \n     Can you imagine &quot;President&quot; Chaney? <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->','',0,'gA==','1fc7q9vp',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(15337,243,12,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160581978,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:16o5fe0x][quote=&quot;KRITER&quot;:16o5fe0x]If Im rembering rite Bush did sign the bill.Im glad he did.He finally did a good thing.But  it dont make up for all the bad hes done.[/quote:16o5fe0x]\n\n   I agree Kriter.......and yet, we must hope nothing happens to him.\n      \n     Can you imagine &quot;President&quot; Chaney? <!-- s:hang: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_hang.gif\" alt=\":hang:\" title=\"hang\" /><!-- s:hang: -->[/quote:16o5fe0x]\n\nNo and dont want to.Its hard enuff beleeving Bush got elected agan.','',0,'gA==','16o5fe0x',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15341,243,12,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1160582922,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','the 2008 election should be very interesting.  The democrats IMO would have been better off putting someone else other then Kerry in 2004.  I just dont feel that he is electable and is Senator Clinton.  \n\nI personally feel the the congressman from illinois has a great chance of getting the nod as the Democrat canidate.  I dont even want to try to spell his name.\n\nAs for the RNC,  i feel that if Rudy runs from NY,  he will have a great chance with his popularity from the 9-11 situation.  but i dont think that he will run.\n\nI wish that Colin Powell would run, but I dont think that will happen either.','',0,'gA==','q60fgbdg',1,0,'',643,0,0),(15354,1433,29,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160584904,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ve watched about half of this film. Up to about the dolphins bit. And it\'s very upsetting, but I\'d definately recommend it to try and teach others about what truly goes on.','',0,'gA==','2t0iwlb1',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15360,1780,27,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160585610,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Veganism isn\'t a diet (diet is something you often do to lose weight or feel healthier and usually isn\'t permanent)...it\'s a way of life. I\'m a vegan. And tbh, I think a lot of the time the &quot;other&quot; person doesn\'t change after watching the video is because they can easily shrug it off and say &quot;I don\'t care&quot;. Tbh, I think it\'s far easier for an omnivore to do that as it\'s the easy way out. Doesn\'t really require that many brain cells either ;).\n\nTo me, to become a vegan, you need to be strong-willed and put up with a lot, especially living in the world we live in where vegans and vegetarians are seen as &quot;freaks&quot; because we actually care about the animal that was once on our plates, (unless you\'re a health veg*n).','',0,'gA==','38t34qa5',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15372,1780,27,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1160587370,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:1y056d1m]To me, to become a vegan, you need to be strong-willed and put up with a lot, especially living in the world we live in where vegans and vegetarians are seen as &quot;freaks&quot; because we actually care about the animal that was once on our plates.[/quote:1y056d1m]\n\n   It seems like the hardest thing about being Vegan is having to deal\nwith omni\'s guilt.\n\n   Especially for teenagers who are making their parents feel guilty.','',0,'gA==','1y056d1m',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(15374,1780,27,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160587711,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Indeed. Both my parents are omni. But no matter how hard I try, I can\'t get them to see the light. Ironic really, considering my mum\'s lactose intolerant.','',0,'gA==','3w2uur3b',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15381,1780,27,1015,0,'152.163.100.67',1160591715,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:2m78arhw]Indeed. Both my parents are omni. But no matter how hard I try, I can\'t get them to see the light. Ironic really, considering my mum\'s lactose intolerant.[/quote:2m78arhw]\n\n   Hi,\n     are you the same Chenli who\'s an artist?  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','2m78arhw',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(15382,1780,27,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160592854,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Um, famous artist? Or just deviantart type artist who can\'t draw for crap?','',0,'gA==','2i2f1roh',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15427,1840,3,938,0,'210.54.75.10',1160730098,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Animal Rights and Animal Welfare &quot;Where do you stand?&q','[color=darkblue:93jl0jqx]This is a brilliant article looking at the differences and relationships between animal rights and animal welfare. <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->[/color:93jl0jqx] \n\n[url:93jl0jqx]http&#58;//www&#46;animal-law&#46;org/library/araw_i&#46;htm[/url:93jl0jqx]','',0,'Eg==','93jl0jqx',1,0,'',938,0,0),(15430,1840,3,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160738049,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'m AR. It\'s all well and good being for animal welfare, but once animal welfare is at it\'s peak, people will just think that it\'s still ok to eat meat and such because the animals have had &quot;a good life&quot;.','',0,'Eg==','32n6bq0r',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15434,1840,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160740835,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Im AR too and agree with you chenli.','',0,'Eg==','xizkmvzh',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15465,1840,3,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1160745427,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Me too....AR all the way......hey Kriter, how\'s it going? <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'Eg==','3aekkcx4',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(15468,1840,3,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1160746095,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Animal Rights and Animal Welfare &quot;Where do you stan','[quote=&quot;DairyNZ&quot;:2eslo5hf][color=darkblue:2eslo5hf]This is a brilliant article looking at the differences and relationships between animal rights and animal welfare. <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->[/color:2eslo5hf] \n\n[url:2eslo5hf]http&#58;//www&#46;animal-law&#46;org/library/araw_i&#46;htm[/url:2eslo5hf][/quote:2eslo5hf]\n\n   OK......I\'m confused. The article basically says &quot;welfare&quot; doesn\'t work\nor does very little &amp; that Animal Rights is the way to go.\n    And of course, I agree. So why do you call this article brilliant? \n    Are you perhaps changing your way of thinking? That would be so\ncool..........and don\'t feel alone......people do it every day.....I think it\'s\njust great!','',0,'kg==','2eslo5hf',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(15489,1840,3,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1160757560,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:1hg97hx5]Me too....AR all the way......hey Kriter, how\'s it going? <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->[/quote:1hg97hx5]\n\n\nIts going rite good Ginger.Thank you for asking.Hope everythings good with you.','',0,'gA==','1hg97hx5',1,0,'',454,0,0),(15576,1796,31,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1160850719,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','This is where our taxes go.\n\nThese guys have a real easy job. They sit around reading discussion forums used by people who are interested in the welfare and rights of animals. \n\nI also want a job like that. Where can I apply?','',0,'gA==','75fi192q',1,0,'',376,0,0),(15581,1796,31,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160851707,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: really?','[quote=&quot;monkeyboy&quot;:1rixjkvv]the Govt agency people are really reading message boards like this?  Gee, I would have thought that they had REAL things to do with their time.  Hmmmm the 9-11 incident comes to mind.  This blows my mind, people want to kill Americans, and these agents are sitting around on their fat asses reading message boards of peaceful people.  I heard they only give those jobs to the guys who cant make it doing real field work.[/quote:1rixjkvv]\n\nIndeed. I know a vegan on deviantart who found government ip adresses in the log of people who visited her website. The government would rather waste their time monitoring &quot;potential&quot; (not bloody likely) terrorists, rather than REAL &quot;potential&quot; terrorists.\n\nThis is another reason to perhaps make this forum more secure in some way.','',0,'gA==','1rixjkvv',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15585,1848,15,1403,0,'86.145.219.20',1160852209,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','spitirtualism','Do spiritualists have any view on animal rights?  For example, do they believe that animals have spirits, and that they continue after death?  I would expect it to be more inclined towards animals\' interests than a lot of religions, for it is less anthropocentric in general and more open-minded.\n\nI was very interested in spiritualism in my early teens, and always planned to give a church a go when I was older.  However, by my late teens, I had lost interest.  I don\'t know anyone who is a spiritualist, and probably don\'t know anyone who knows anyone who is.  Does anyone else know a spiritualist and know if they have opinions on such things?','',0,'gA==','3ulzid98',1,0,'',1403,0,0),(15591,1848,15,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1160853526,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/seance/78/an.htm\">http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/seance/78/an.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','2qs0qs6l',1,0,'',376,0,0),(15594,1796,31,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160854723,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It is the fleecing of America. We should be getting to work finding our most wanted terrorist.','',0,'gA==','2mglcupw',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15595,1796,31,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1160854772,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Genevieve&quot;:19kz9ny2]It is the fleecing of America. We should be getting to work finding our most wanted terrorist.[/quote:19kz9ny2]\n\nHe\'s sitting in the White House right now.','',0,'gA==','19kz9ny2',1,0,'',376,0,0),(15596,1796,31,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160854878,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','lol. he is the real killer. he is protected by his daddy.','',0,'gA==','25yd0sd7',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15597,1796,31,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1160856186,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Actually, I wonder if that WipeDrive is a good product or not. When I buy a new computer, I\'ll probably donate mine to some charity or something, and it would be nice to know that there is none of my private stuff still on it.\n\nBut then of course there\'s the ccleaner that was spoken about in the first post.','',0,'gA==','1zuvpr24',1,0,'',376,0,0),(15598,1796,31,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160856326,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Diana&quot;:374baaq9][quote=&quot;Genevieve&quot;:374baaq9]It is the fleecing of America. We should be getting to work finding our most wanted terrorist.[/quote:374baaq9]\n\nHe\'s sitting in the White House right now.[/quote:374baaq9]\n\nGreat response.  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','374baaq9',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15599,1796,31,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1160856533,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','One of my favourite pics of GW is this one:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://photos1.blogger.com/img/168/2055/320/bush_dummies2.jpg\">http://photos1.blogger.com/img/168/2055 ... mmies2.jpg</a><!-- m -->\n\nThat one I won\'t bother to delete from the computer.','',0,'gA==','1wokqna5',1,0,'',376,0,0),(15603,1796,31,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160858335,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Lol, is that picture for real or photoshopped?','',0,'gA==','4hcgvuow',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15604,1796,31,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1160859117,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I suggest we say it\'s for real.\n\nEven if it isn\'t. :D','',0,'gA==','3hgi3ttb',1,0,'',376,0,0),(15606,1796,31,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160863741,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','damnit it . it will not let me view it.','',0,'gA==','28g4iznz',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15608,1796,31,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160864088,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[img:2yd4e763]http&#58;//photos1&#46;blogger&#46;com/img/168/2055/320/bush_dummies2&#46;jpg[/img:2yd4e763]\n\nSince you can\'t see it via url.','',0,'CA==','2yd4e763',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15611,1796,31,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160864364,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i see the picture icon. but I cant see the pic it self. must be a techinal issue.','',0,'CA==','1j9zy30w',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15623,1796,31,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160866339,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Maybe the browser is blocking the image or if you are on a school/college/library computer, it might be set to filter.','',0,'CA==','15zsf6ji',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15624,1796,31,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160866650,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i think it is the browser.','',0,'CA==','1womr4hs',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15626,1796,31,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1160866750,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Which one are you using?','',0,'CA==','3sz0eksq',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15627,1796,31,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1160867157,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','firefox. i am on linux. i saw a bumper sticker that had W\'s face on it and it has the words fucktard on it.','',0,'CA==','uekviigc',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15799,1840,3,124,0,'208.38.12.26',1161027124,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Definately animal rights.  All the way!  With animal welfare, it gives the people the opinion that we can still use animals in any way we see fit, as long as their cages are big enough and we give them enough room to maybe stratch out a leg or wing. As long as they have the basic necessities, then we can just carry on what we do best....abuse them.  That is my take on AW.','',0,'CA==','2vk4xnco',1,0,'',124,0,0),(15807,1848,15,1403,0,'86.145.219.20',1161031846,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Thanks.  That\'s very interesting.  It\'s quite overwhelming to imagine a spirit realm where not only every person who ever lived exists but also every animal.  By the way, I\'m actually an atheist, but I have a soft spot for spiritualism.','',0,'CA==','3irwagle',1,0,'',1403,0,0),(15935,1362,16,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1161119701,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','thanks. i went to this natural foods store and saw found alot of curilty free products. they got my business.','',0,'CA==','2jv5wp3r',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(15936,1362,16,575,0,'217.43.129.52',1161120697,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I get the kingfisher toothpaste. Can get it from Holland &amp; Barretts.','',0,'CA==','3hw3mzkj',1,0,'',575,0,0),(15952,1830,27,1074,0,'222.153.49.248',1161141492,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','we have educaated the people who are not as arogant as to ignore us!!!!!! <!-- s:x --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif\" alt=\":x\" title=\"Mad\" /><!-- s:x -->','',0,'CA==','3dozvwvr',1,0,'',1074,0,0),(16030,457,12,1245,0,'74.68.36.162',1161214004,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Why I Hate Vegetarians','[quote=&quot;discolisious&quot;:1ww9lpd0]On the actual website there are links and such...but here is her address:\n\n<!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:juliebindel@yahoo.co.uk\">juliebindel@yahoo.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.maninnature.com/Management/ARights/Rights1w.html\">http://www.maninnature.com/Management/A ... hts1w.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nWhy I Hate Vegetarians\nPeople should not be bullied into giving up meat by humourless, judgmental souls using spurious arguments\n\nBy Julie Bindel*\n\nEating in a meat-free restaurant the other day made me realise why I hate vegetarians. The food, unlike the tasteless, bland rubbish often served up in such places, was delicious. Unusually for meatless cuisine, it had flavour and texture, and had even been seasoned. What was unpalatable were the customers and waiting staff, all of whom seemed to believe that what they were eating made them superior. They all looked smug and self-satisfied. It brought it home to me that most vegetarians - and I am largely excluding those who eschew meat for religious and cultural reasons - give themselves a bad name. They are better than you, don\'t you know? The atmosphere in the restaurant was one of pompous aloofness. I left with indigestion.\n\nPeople often assume I don\'t eat meat, because I am a feminist and vaguely of the left. I have turned up at dinner parties to find the host has assumed that at least one guest would be vegetarian, and served undercooked baked potatoes. What an atrocity! Why can they not put a chicken in the oven at the same time? Or is the sight of meat so offensive to veggies that they would pass out at the table?\n\nRecent converts can be the worst. I have lost friends to the cult who, once they get fed the mantra from the militants, become something akin to ex-smokers. I am tired of feeling self-conscious in restaurants when ordering meat in front of them. No one should deny that factory-farmed animals are kept in the most appalling conditions, and that eating too much meat is bad for you. But look at their claims. Crusaders promote vegetarianism not only as healthy but as a solution to world hunger and a safeguard of the planet.\n\nDo not assume living without animal products is always a positive, healthy choice. A vegan couple in America have recently been charged with child abuse for malnourishing their three small children. They had been brought up on a vegan diet from birth. There have been similar cases where children, who cannot choose what they eat, have had their health severely damaged because of their parents\' principles. They are putting the welfare of animals before that of their children. Giving up meat and dairy has been linked to anorexia and other eating disorders in teenage girls. Lack of vitamin B12, found mainly in meats, eggs, dairy and fish, can cause brain damage. Most vegans, and some non-meat-eaters, have to supplement their diet with pills. In the developed world, vegetarianism is a privileged choice. How many working-class vegetarians do you know? It is not an option for most poor people in this country.\n\nA veggie colleague once said of a woman with her three young children in a supermarket, &quot;Have you seen those cheap beefburgers and pies she\'s feeding them? Why does she not go to the market, buy some fresh vegetables and make them all some nice, healthy soup?&quot; Again that assumption that vegetarian and vegan foods are cheaper, which they are not, and that the mother had all the time in the world to prepare food from scratch.\n\nLet\'s get our priorities right. People who put foxes and lambs before people do not have my vote. Animal liberationists blowing up scientists for conducting experiments that might lead to a cure for cancer are odious. There are more refuge spaces for cats than there are for women and their children fleeing domestic violence. While rape crisis centres are closing due to lack of funds, animal charities are raking it in.\n\nAlthough vegetarianism is often seen as a &quot;women\'s issue&quot;, there is a nasty, misogynistic wing that relies on sexist images and messages to convince people that meat is murder. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Peta) are the worst offenders. One of their early adverts features a woman dragging a fur coat behind her. She is captioned as a &quot;dumb animal&quot;. Another has a woman having her fur coat ripped off in the street and clubbed to death by a man, to make the point that it is not nice to be killed for your coat. The actor who played Lolita in the 1997 remake became &quot;the youngest star to pose naked for Peta\'s anti-fur campaign&quot;. The message is: treat women, not animals, like meat.\n\nThose who think we should not eat meat because all life is sacred are naive. Would they be happy allowing mosquitoes to spread malaria, or having rats run loose in their home? Not all creatures are equal. There are natural hierarchies in the food chain.\n\nPeople should be allowed to make their own choices and not be bullied or frightened into giving up meat. In the US recently, children in a secondary school were taken by their teachers to a slaughterhouse to show them how animals are killed for food. This tactic is a form of mind control, as unethical as discouraging young girls from having sex by making them watch a difficult childbirth.\n\nI may hate vegetarians because they make me feel guilty, or because, meat being so delicious, they must have lots of willpower. But as an animal lover who agrees in principle with most reasons for giving up meat, I would rather not join that band of humourless, judgmental souls. It would seem that you are indeed what you eat.\n\n*The author is a freelance writer and the founder of Justice for Women.[/quote:1ww9lpd0]\n\n\n\n\ni have an argument for each paragraph here,..\n\n&quot;Why I Hate Vegetarians\nPeople should not be bullied into giving up meat by humourless, judgmental souls using spurious arguments&quot;\n\nohh so ripping off a living creatures parts, and causing suffering is humor? screw you heartless b**ch how bout i put u in a factory? that would be humor enough to me\n\n&quot;Eating in a meat-free restaurant the other day made me realise why I hate vegetarians. The food, unlike the tasteless, bland rubbish often served up in such places, was delicious. Unusually for meatless cuisine, it had flavour and texture, and had even been seasoned. What was unpalatable were the customers and waiting staff, all of whom seemed to believe that what they were eating made them superior. They all looked smug and self-satisfied. It brought it home to me that most vegetarians - and I am largely excluding those who eschew meat for religious and cultural reasons - give themselves a bad name. They are better than you, don\'t you know? The atmosphere in the restaurant was one of pompous aloofness. I left with indigestion.&quot;\n\nthat bland rubbish wsnt abused for us, and if were the ones acting better and superior why is it that the rich and spoiled make the fur industry? and in a sense we ARE better then people like you, were not ignorant we have common sense and a heart, eve though were better, we dont sho it off, we just try to have fun without meat in our lives\n\n&quot;People often assume I don\'t eat meat, because I am a feminist and vaguely of the left. I have turned up at dinner parties to find the host has assumed that at least one guest would be vegetarian, and served undercooked baked potatoes. What an atrocity! Why can they not put a chicken in the oven at the same time? Or is the sight of meat so offensive to veggies that they would pass out at the table?&quot;\n\nyou need to be more informed. It seems to me you have no clue about reality\n\n&quot;Recent converts can be the worst. I have lost friends to the cult who, once they get fed the mantra from the militants, become something akin to ex-smokers. I am tired of feeling self-conscious in restaurants when ordering meat in front of them. No one should deny that factory-farmed animals are kept in the most appalling conditions, and that eating too much meat is bad for you. But look at their claims. Crusaders promote vegetarianism not only as healthy but as a solution to world hunger and a safeguard of the planet.\n\nDo not assume living without animal products is always a positive, healthy choice. A vegan couple in America have recently been charged with child abuse for malnourishing their three small children. They had been brought up on a vegan diet from birth. There have been similar cases where children, who cannot choose what they eat, have had their health severely damaged because of their parents\' principles. They are putting the welfare of animals before that of their children. Giving up meat and dairy has been linked to anorexia and other eating disorders in teenage girls. Lack of vitamin B12, found mainly in meats, eggs, dairy and fish, can cause brain damage. Most vegans, and some non-meat-eaters, have to supplement their diet with pills. In the developed world, vegetarianism is a privileged choice. How many working-class vegetarians do you know? It is not an option for most poor people in this country.&quot;\n\nhey did u know that dairy products promote breast cancer?  a cow has to be pregnant to get milked of the milk in them, the human race is the only race known to drink the milk from another species.  As for meat mad cow disease, salmonella and other bacteria found in meat have been known to kill most people.  Plus 75% of obesity in America is meat related. It has so much fat,\n\nand the malnourished children,.. thats probly cuz the parents didnt know how to supply the proper nutrients, a smart vegan is informed. And the eating disorders,.. its a girls right to choose over theyre body.  they dont have to be vegahn to be anorexix, sumgirls simply fast on dairy and liquids it has nothing to do with anorexia  please, i ask you again get informed .. \n\nand wen u say were putting welfare of animals before people,.. have you ever heard of speciesm?  the human race includnig people like you are so selfish... seriously\n\n&quot;A veggie colleague once said of a woman with her three young children in a supermarket, &quot;Have you seen those cheap beefburgers and pies she\'s feeding them? Why does she not go to the market, buy some fresh vegetables and make them all some nice, healthy soup?&quot; Again that assumption that vegetarian and vegan foods are cheaper, which they are not, and that the mother had all the time in the world to prepare food from scratch.\n\nLet\'s get our priorities right. People who put foxes and lambs before people do not have my vote. Animal liberationists blowing up scientists for conducting experiments that might lead to a cure for cancer are odious. There are more refuge spaces for cats than there are for women and their children fleeing domestic violence. While rape crisis centres are closing due to lack of funds, animal charities are raking it in.&quot;\n\nvegetables and healthy soups lead to a longer life span and healthy body,  and WTF your sided with experimentation? wat if it were you in that lab? and sum species were cutting open your brains and body for theyre benefits, specially a cure for disease that would never be found. Fact is animals never share same DNA as humans.  Most of the products and medicines tested on animals gave a different result to humans,.. most people died from taking medicine thats been tested on an animal.\n\ni have nothing else to say,.. people lkie you apoll me','',0,'gA==','1ww9lpd0',1,0,'',1245,0,0),(16102,1848,15,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161281668,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','If animals have spirits. Then why don\'t they haunt the fuckers that have exploited them. There should be ghosts outside butchers shops! I have always though how cool would it be to have A \'Ghost A.L.F.\' you can\'t be jailed and you can do things! Extremist Poltergeist!','',0,'gA==','22jggt0l',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16103,1885,3,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161285643,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Hardliners and WAR','What do people think of hardliners and the whole hardline concept? \n\nFor people that don\'t know what that is, it was created by a band called Vegan Reich and is a militant form of straight edge explained here <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardline_%28syncretic_movement%29#Criticism\">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardline_% ... #Criticism</a><!-- m --> and probably elsewhere on the web.\n\nI kind of agree and disagree. Vegan Reich were a very good band ( link to their myspace at the bottom) but maybe they are too militiant. It\'s pretty much the end of line. I don\'t agree with their persecution of gays and strict anti-abortion stance (it\'s far too complicated an issue to take a strict side, pro or against IMO) but, whilst I AM NOT ADVOCATING IT their violent resistance seems to work pretty well. What are people\'s opinions on the whole movement?\n\nVegan Reich Myspace <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.myspace.com/veganreich\">http://www.myspace.com/veganreich</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','377o44ir',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16104,1885,3,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161286260,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Lyrics for Vegan Reich\'s \n&quot;The Way it is&quot;                                                       \n\n&quot;Fuck you, shut your fucking mouth, we didn\'t ask for your opinion- we\'re telling you the way it is, so sit back and listen. Your position is irrelevant to this situation, it\'s black and white, you\'re wrong, we\'re right, and you\'d better come to that realization. . . Cos it\'s murder plain and simple, no justification for the taking of a life without provocation. You\'d be guilty of a crime in courts throughout the nation, if the victim was human you could face execution. . . \nLaid down in stone, there can be no other definition meat and dairy production is torturing, is killing. For no purpose, for your ego, for the taste, their blood you\'re spilling. Belsen, Auchwitz, Dachau. The similarity is frightening. A master race mentality of liberty for those with superiority. Your moral civilized society, is built on brutality and cruelty where normality is insanity and sane an extreme ideology. Like the resistance to Nazi Germany we don\'t obey laws of barbarity. \nSo, expect no fucking mercy, if you\'re guilty you will pay. No chances to discuss it, you\'re gonna fucking hang. Terrorists and hooligans just you fucking wait, if that\'s the image you create of us you aint seen nothing yet. What did you think, this was a college debate? This is WAR, so stay the fuck out of the way, were coming thru that door, and once we free those enslaved well even up the score. Guilty of murder, you\'ll face the new law&quot;\n\nOnce again I AM NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE. Just for the record.','',0,'gA==','35enud8u',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16106,1885,3,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1161290054,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Like you, I agree with some things and not others. Definately the anti-abortion and anti-gay stance I do not agree with.','',0,'gA==','3rr72hwq',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16107,1885,3,1391,0,'129.67.17.121',1161292283,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Call me unfair but I tend to get the impression that people with the mindset depicted in that song are severely lacking in certain areas of their lives. No-one ever achieved anything worthwhile with that attitude.','',0,'gA==','2ub88lht',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(16109,1885,3,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1161292974,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The same could be said for rap songs - basically saying they carry the attitude they display in their songs, around with them. But some don\'t. And tbh, to me, there\'s nothing wrong with the song. It\'s speaks a thousand truths.\n\nMind you, can\'t say much about the actual playing of the song...shouting the words really fast = can barely understand what they\'re saying.','',0,'gA==','2bl9dj6n',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16126,1885,3,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1161312016,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','vegan reich','Vegan Reich is to Peta what Malcolm X was to Martin Luther King. When folks hear a more extremist view then the one to which they have been disagreeing they tend to compromise. That\'s how the center of public opinion moves.\n\nPeople who would never change their minds anyway will claim Vegan Reich is detrimental to the cause of animal rights. These people haven\'t learned much from history.','',0,'gA==','125mabuc',1,0,'',2,0,0),(16141,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161320927,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','!!','Hey guys.  Is anyone still here?  I\'m relatively new to ALF, but my sister is around somewhere.  I hope I\'m not interrupting','',0,'gA==','n57qis6t',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16142,69,14,1031,0,'210.246.63.179',1161321008,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','hey, i\'m here and just mucking round','',0,'gA==','3eh9ah3f',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(16143,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161321229,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','Heya.  Me too. I\'m listening to tunes','',0,'gA==','1pbhyczg',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16144,69,14,1031,0,'210.246.63.179',1161321497,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i\'m watching americas funniest home videos','',0,'gA==','1kydfzm9',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(16145,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161321508,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','Hey are you still here?  Gross I just saw this picture on another site.  It was so sad!','',0,'gA==','33g0uusa',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16146,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161321590,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','They\'re good, although the one\'s with animals on them are sad.  Some of them are cute.  Have you seen the one with the cat who can open doors?','',0,'gA==','lzmfesmu',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16147,69,14,1031,0,'210.246.63.179',1161321655,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','yeah, was it peta sucks? that site is depressing','',0,'gA==','kaaxo8lg',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(16148,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161321714,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','I haven\'t seen it.  I\'ve only just realised how horrible people are.  I\'m sort of new.  *guilty* <!-- s:oops: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif\" alt=\":oops:\" title=\"Embarassed\" /><!-- s:oops: -->  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','3o5kni35',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16149,69,14,1031,0,'210.246.63.179',1161321796,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','its okay, u should be proud to have joined once you realised, so many ppl don\'t care','',0,'gA==','m6kq00gp',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(16150,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161321887,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','Hey thanks.  I would really appreciate more filling in.  Is it ok if we talk about other things as well as animals?','',0,'gA==','1iawfa00',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16151,69,14,1031,0,'210.246.63.179',1161321958,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','yeah definitly','',0,'gA==','1rv70jzv',1,0,'',1031,0,0),(16152,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161322015,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','Awesome.  Sorry if I seem a bit dumb but I\'m new to this whole thing','',0,'gA==','qtshk0zs',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16153,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161322467,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','hello??','',0,'gA==','ki96jtj6',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16154,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161322666,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','Ok I\'m going to have to go.  Can you be on the same time tomorrow?','',0,'gA==','2k514cz9',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16155,69,14,1452,0,'222.153.49.218',1161322761,1,0,0,1,1,1,'','','I\'ll be back at the same forum.  I have to give this website.  It\'s so sad!!!','',0,'gA==','2o7az0w6',1,0,'',1452,0,0),(16186,1885,3,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161358813,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The style of music is very much like conflict. You can hear what they say when you read the lyrics! Lots of hardcore bands are like that. It reflects the utter outrage and passion they have for the cause. Not everyones cup of tea but for the genre they are pretty good. Though try finding that stuff in the shops, even the underground ones! My dad has one album and he looked for it for like 10 years! Anyway hardliners are what I\'m on about not the band.','',0,'gA==','w23k6gcv',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16193,1885,3,796,0,'86.132.225.92',1161366520,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','doubt there are any people around now that are hardline, speaks for itself really.\n\nlisten to the first three earth crisis records instead.','',0,'gA==','1oi7v1mo',1,0,'',796,0,0),(16194,1885,3,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161366676,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There are loads of hardliners! Storys, generally bad, always crop up. Hardliners beat this person up, did that, smashed that etc. They must have made an underground organisation threatening to take over the world! Well, they are still out there anyway.','',0,'gA==','16g04olm',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16196,1885,3,575,0,'81.153.136.212',1161366829,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Lol, well the article you posted is the first time I had ever heard of such a group.','',0,'gA==','212ux3l9',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16198,1885,3,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161366936,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','They are not in the news very much and don\'t really have any mags or websites. I guess you just have to know people in the hardline scene.','',0,'gA==','2gtzwh6n',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16218,1899,10,1454,0,'172.128.199.210',1161418667,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Where to find local circuses/rodeo info?','Where can I find information about any rodeos or circuses that may be visiting my area? Thanks for your time ^^','',0,'gA==','1yvc69sm',1,0,'',1454,0,0),(16223,1899,10,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1161436446,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Usually they are advertised. Watch for posters and ticket giveaway at supermarkets or big chain stores like Walmart. Some may also use radio or tv ads. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1hj1hcx0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(16231,1899,10,1015,0,'152.163.100.67',1161439285,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Where to find local circuses/rodeo info?','[quote=&quot;VenomousX&quot;:1j1vaxrt]Where can I find information about any rodeos or circuses that may be visiting my area? Thanks for your time ^^[/quote:1j1vaxrt]\n\n    Hi Ven.....the AR group called Shark [Showing Animals Respect &amp; Kindness] is the place to go for that kind of information [i:1j1vaxrt]as well as PETA [/i:1j1vaxrt]\n\n   Steve Hindi is the founder &amp; they\'ve had some great successes\nhere\'s their web page <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.sharkonline.org/about.mv\">http://www.sharkonline.org/about.mv</a><!-- m -->\n\n    Good luck to you and thanks for caring','',0,'oA==','1j1vaxrt',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16253,1899,10,1454,0,'172.164.122.231',1161447657,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks for the help, I\'ll take a look. Might be able to organize some demos <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) -->','',0,'oA==','daklyu45',1,0,'',1454,0,0),(16261,1718,8,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1161451927,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','There is reason to be optimistic though. Slavery was abolished; child labour is outlawed in many countries now; women in many countries in the last century have achieved more freedom and legal rights; racism is no longer considered normal in civilised countries...\n\nThe 21st Century may very well be the Century where animals are finally considered as beings that need to be respected, and not exploited.\n\nAnimal Rights is basically a new concept for people. It takes time for a new concept to become mainstream.\n\nFight the good fight, and do not despair.\n\nEvil triumphs when good men do nothing. As long as you are doing something, you are weakening its base.','',0,'oA==','1qdpoaaj',1,0,'',376,0,0),(16278,1718,8,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1161466294,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Diana&quot;:1x4g5amr]There is reason to be optimistic though. Slavery was abolished; child labour is outlawed in many countries now; women in many countries in the last century have achieved more freedom and legal rights; racism is no longer considered normal in civilised countries...\n\nThe 21st Century may very well be the Century where animals are finally considered as beings that need to be respected, and not exploited.\n\nAnimal Rights is basically a new concept for people. It takes time for a new concept to become mainstream.\n\nFight the good fight, and do not despair.\n\nEvil triumphs when good men do nothing. As long as you are doing something, you are weakening its base.[/quote:1x4g5amr]\n\n   And go to the PETA2 boards and take a look at this new generation that are still in their teens......smartest most caring  kids I\'ve ever seen','',0,'gA==','1x4g5amr',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16281,1718,8,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161467353,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeh. Even though I don\'t know many, it\'s great to see people my age (teenage) into animal rights. There are loads and they are out there and it is really annoying to get all this \'youth of today...\' shit. Vandals, \'punks\', gangs etc. We are doing so much whilst moaning old people only whinge and write letters of \'outrage\' to the papers. They are some of the worst stereotypers. An elderly woman actually turned around and walked off in the other direction when she saw me with my hood up. She obviously didn\'t see my vegan- love, respect, compassion patches.','',0,'gA==','p1vv7kv4',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16286,1718,8,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1161468858,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;AutomaticMan&quot;:1kn92dz9]Yeh. Even though I don\'t know many, it\'s great to see people my age (teenage) into animal rights. There are loads and they are out there and it is really annoying to get all this \'youth of today...\' shit. Vandals, \'punks\', gangs etc. We are doing so much whilst moaning old people only whinge and write letters of \'outrage\' to the papers. They are some of the worst stereotypers. An elderly woman actually turned around and walked off in the other direction when she saw me with my hood up. She obviously didn\'t see my vegan- love, respect, compassion patches.[/quote:1kn92dz9]\n\n   Well AutomaticMan, I\'m an elderly woman &amp; I think the youth of today\nis the best generation of all times........I\'m so proud you guys! You really\nare going to change the world and make it a MUCH MUCH better place.\n   And I\'m 100% behind what you\'re doing and to tell you the truth I wish the old farts who insist on living as if it\'s still the 20th century would hurry up and die off.........I get just as tired of them as you do <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'gA==','1kn92dz9',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16310,1905,19,1454,0,'172.145.204.157',1161484130,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','-sigh- Had a depressing day..','-deleted-','',0,'gA==','2fx6ise8',1,1163646144,'',1454,1,0),(16316,254,14,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1161505532,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i heard that minor threat is a good band.','',0,'gA==','3mvkvgmt',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(16320,1718,8,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161508143,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks! Great to know not everyone\'s like that. It\'s also great to see the older people into animal rights and what not. I\'m sick of that &quot;well what can I do now, I\'m too old crap&quot;.   <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'gA==','horgb4b0',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16324,1718,8,376,0,'212.74.187.76',1161512859,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Automatic Man: There are plenty of dumb youth in the world, as well as plenty of dumb older people. Just as there are some great youth and some great elderly. \n\nEver heard of Cynthia O\'Neill who managed through her efforts to get the HillGrove cat farm closed?\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.nzavs.org.nz/materials/cathell.html\">http://www.nzavs.org.nz/materials/cathell.html</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','3qztotj3',1,0,'',376,0,0),(16328,1718,8,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1161519404,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Age is no barrier','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Actions-UK/UKPensionercleared.htm\">http://animalliberationfront.com/ALFron ... leared.htm</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','lbi6d9bd',1,0,'',2,0,0),(16337,1905,19,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1161523791,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','People are such scum sorry you and your family went through that.\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','21crhb3y',1,0,'',372,0,0),(16340,1718,8,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161525362,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I knew of her but didn\'t know much about it. Yes I know there are plenty of great people of all ages and the opposite is true. I was just saying it\'s great because I know don\'t that many.','',0,'gA==','1r40zvs3',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16346,1905,19,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1161527691,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','if people are going to have the animal then they have a moral responsibility to take care of the animal.  It was better to have the animal put down then stay in that condition and suffer.  that is never a pleasant situation but it was the correct thing to do, IMO.  sorry for your loss.  I could not imagine having to do that to my dog.  He is like a second child.','',0,'gA==','18bowbsz',1,0,'',643,0,0),(16347,1905,19,575,0,'217.43.133.217',1161527793,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hmmm, wasn\'t there anyway to take the dog to the vets or a veterinary charity that will offer free euthanasia?\n\nAlso, it is a shame, that euthanasia was what it came to.','',0,'gA==','1vpex89d',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16351,1905,19,1454,0,'172.133.126.25',1161530429,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','yeah I would have preferred to have her humanely euth\'d (injection) but my mom didnt think that driving to the vet would be much better of an experience for either of us :/','',0,'gA==','28w1i8ev',1,0,'',1454,0,0),(16377,1186,16,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1161562948,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i buy meow mix. i do not purchase anything p&amp;g related.','',0,'gA==','3uc0jjr9',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(16386,1915,15,1245,0,'74.68.36.162',1161579354,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','birdhouse instead of cages','lot of people want birds as pets...  and they could have them <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\n\nthe bad part is they cage them,.. which forces the birds to stay there wen they could be flying the world... adn it gives them less fresh air and lack of life span\n\nbirdhouses are nice cuz they have a home and food they could be looking forward too leaving weneverthey want, plus sum birds would want to adjust and built nests there so they the owner could have a little pet <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> lol (if they lay eggs theyll get even littler pets hehe)','',0,'gA==','mfa73kqo',1,0,'',1245,0,0),(16387,1916,19,1245,0,'74.68.36.162',1161579728,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','one thing i dont understand,..','why is it wen the government sees a neglected, starved or abused pet they arrest the owner,.. yet the government created the idea of factory farms and cruel labs and totally legalizes  it?','',0,'gA==','e6zswo00',1,0,'',1245,0,0),(16388,484,12,1245,0,'74.68.36.162',1161579964,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','we need lawyers and lawsuits, And we need to think smarter\n\nmake your message in better ways,\n\n  walk around with graphic images on signs and walk around streets and fast food or restaurants\n  \n   send mail to peoples houses\n\n   ill think of more ideas later... im all out now lol','',0,'gA==','2v0ugxfh',1,0,'',1245,0,0),(16390,484,12,1103,0,'208.102.54.23',1161581417,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','i havent did anything at all but i am going to get an all-in-one lawyer that  can cover all bases if ever need be. it is a good precusion. i found one locally in Cincinnati.','',0,'gA==','jbrgw5sp',1,0,'',1103,0,0),(16393,1916,19,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161596102,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There\'s no money to be made of abusing a domestic dog or cat yet the industries of death give them millions. They will defend them until either the government is overthrown and crippled or it no longer becomes viable to invest in them. I.E. people stop eating dead flesh.','',0,'gA==','1hdgm5j5',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16395,22,15,1472,0,'81.71.91.128',1161597319,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I really think it\'s wrong to make your pet a vegan. Dogs are original meat eaters , why should you make a choice for them?! This is molestation.','',0,'gA==','3s3bseg7',1,0,'',1472,0,0),(16396,22,15,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161598067,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Originally dogs were not slaves to humans. The whole dog-human relationship is unnatural (not wrong mind you). And you don\'t think feeding your dog a cow or a horse is unnatural! What about the animals turned into dog food? And feeding your dog that crap is molestation.','',0,'gA==','38l8zwpd',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16399,22,15,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1161607862,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;animalover&quot;:tdjydcgp]I totally believe that a dog and cat\'s diet should be meat free.  There are so many healthy vegetarian options out there for them.  For instance, we all know that fish (tuna, salmon) is littered with mercury. We would never put that in our bodies so why would we put that in our companion\'s bodies?  Speaking of Mercury, when I [b:tdjydcgp]USED TO [/b:tdjydcgp]eat fish I actually got tested for mercury poisoning.  They measure mercury on a scale of 0 - 25, zero being, of course, NO trace elements of mercury in your body and 25 being EXTREME amounts (high toxicity in your body).  I was 84.2\n\nEver since then I try to get people to not feed fish to their companion animals.  I would hate for them to go through what I went through.\n\nVegetarian is the way to go![/quote:tdjydcgp]\n\n\nGood morning,\n\nI was just wondering,  did you eat a lot of one kind of fish.  There are some species of fish in the great lake and rivers that it is only recommend that you dont eat more then so many servings per month.\n\nSalmon is one of these species and is a popular table fare.\n\njust wondering','',0,'wA==','tdjydcgp',1,0,'',643,0,0),(16409,1915,15,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1161612811,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I run a wildlife habitat.  I have 6 birdhouses up and one bat house and not one bird uses them. I do in spring have nests here though. The birds could not give a poop about the houses! Last year I observed four (five)nests here though. Cardinal, mourning dove, hummingbird(didn\'t find till it was vacated) and sparrow(2).\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'wA==','1ioa1leq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(16412,22,15,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1161615327,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Lizzeh&quot;:3ah30u4u]I really think it\'s wrong to make your pet a vegan. Dogs are original meat eaters , why should you make a choice for them?! This is molestation.[/quote:3ah30u4u]\nDogs can be easily [url=http&#58;//www&#46;vegetariandogs&#46;com/:3ah30u4u]vegan[/url:3ah30u4u]. If you can provide your dog a healthy, tasty vegan food - why not?','',0,'kA==','3ah30u4u',1,0,'',111,0,0),(16428,484,12,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1161629511,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yep. Tis unfortunate that &quot;compassion is against the law&quot; nowadays.','',0,'kA==','35sqlq1v',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16432,484,12,1391,0,'129.67.17.121',1161631511,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:1cg9d2pf]Yep. Tis unfortunate that &quot;compassion is against the law&quot; nowadays.[/quote:1cg9d2pf]\nI hope you aren\'t suggesting that AR activists should have carte blanch to do what they like because they are just so compassionate? When AR activists get arrested it\'s because they are breaking the law. A lot of these people are proud of their lawbreaking. I assume you have heard of the biteback website.','',0,'gA==','1cg9d2pf',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(16433,484,12,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1161633043,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Addict&quot;:11i13kpx][quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:11i13kpx]Yep. Tis unfortunate that &quot;compassion is against the law&quot; nowadays.[/quote:11i13kpx]\nI hope you aren\'t suggesting that AR activists should have carte blanch to do what they like because they are just so compassionate? When AR activists get arrested it\'s because they are breaking the law. A lot of these people are proud of their lawbreaking. I assume you have heard of the biteback website.[/quote:11i13kpx]\n\nThere\'s breaking the law, and then there\'s the police being nasty pieces of work because they have the ability to do so. I remember watching a programme about asbos. This protester (not AR something else) got arrested for stepping one foot over a line that was on the road. She also got arrested because her flag accidently blocked the view of a police officer watching the indicator of one car turning.\n\nAs for ARA\'s, some break the law because they are showing compassion towards their fellow creatures by trying to free them from their abusers. Hence it is against the law to be compassionate. A bit like those puppy killers who got off with barely anything, but those who sent hate mail because they cared about the puppy\'s got sent to prison. But sometimes, even peaceful protesters get arrested for the smallest of things.\n\nAnd no, I haven\'t heard of the biteback website.','',0,'gA==','11i13kpx',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16435,484,12,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161634081,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It\'s a very good website for direct action. <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.directaction.info\">www.directaction.info</a><!-- w -->\nNot everyone\'s kinda thing.','',0,'gA==','24539cdl',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16437,484,12,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1161634333,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cool, would love to subscribe to their mag. But don\'t have my own credit card.\n\nEdit: 40 YRS! 40 YEARS! Just for blackmail...jesus h...most human murderers/rapists get less than 10!','',0,'gA==','19hsgbd4',1,1161634465,'',575,1,0),(16439,484,12,1391,0,'129.67.17.121',1161634356,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Biteback is where ARA\'s go to brag about their brave triumphs. Such as pouring paint through the letterbox of the village butchers. The butcher is probably a sweet old gent who they say \'hi\' to in the street but we wouldn\'t want that to get in the way of their campaign of virtue.\n\nThe fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people whinging about getting arrested for no reason but I don\'t see any of them launching succesful suits for unlawful arrest. And if you intend to respond to that by claiming that the courts stick up for the government then you obviously don\'t read the papers much.\n\nAs for getting arrested for showing compassion...well I guess it depends on your definition of compassion. If you remember my example from some other thread; I am sure the communists think they are being compassionate for the working man when they harass the workers at \'ALF Towers\' but I doubt you\'d agree.','',0,'gA==','28wa32q4',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(16441,484,12,674,0,'81.152.227.56',1161634488,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','How do ARA\'s brag about anything? \r\nIt\'s totally anonymous. They don\'t really get much to brag about do they.','',0,'gA==','99waqgih',1,1175617193,'',674,1,0),(16444,484,12,1391,0,'129.67.17.121',1161636130,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It\'s still a little ego trip for them.','',0,'gA==','isikvtcu',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(16447,484,12,575,0,'81.153.138.7',1161636251,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','How. Just how *as I said in the other thread*.','',0,'gA==','1dpk7hso',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16466,1915,15,938,0,'210.54.75.108',1161676320,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It all depends on the species, some species will use them others won’t. Sometimes the location of the birdhouse can be an issue; also the physical size and the size of the hole in the front can be a deterrent (to big, to small)\n\nBeing a keen woodworker/metalworker I made quite a few last Christmas as presents, so researched a bit about them before building. <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'gA==','1slxyed8',1,0,'',938,0,0),(16475,1915,15,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1161699722,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I purchase all mine. In my kiwi I have one nest hung and had my mourning doves nests there and ignore the house not even five feet away. That is not to much a surprise with mourning doves though as they are some of the weakest nest builders in birds. It was so funny my family and I were on cat duty when she nested there. I cannot control neighbors cats which wander onto my property but I can shoosh them away. The bird let us get very close to her nest and I got some great pictures of the babies. I was never fool enough to try to touch them but they were adorable.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','oslkr2xq',1,0,'',372,0,0),(16492,22,15,1472,0,'81.71.91.128',1161719798,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;FreeQ&quot;:29v2hkfb][quote=&quot;Lizzeh&quot;:29v2hkfb]I really think it\'s wrong to make your pet a vegan. Dogs are original meat eaters , why should you make a choice for them?! This is molestation.[/quote:29v2hkfb]\nDogs can be easily [url=http&#58;//www&#46;vegetariandogs&#46;com/:29v2hkfb]vegan[/url:29v2hkfb]. If you can provide your dog a healthy, tasty vegan food - why not?[/quote:29v2hkfb]\nBecause it\'s your own will, not theres. A dog is a fles-eating animal, why should you change the nature. Humans already have messed up the nature enough. I know, a dog isn\'t orgininal a pet, in real he has to haunt his own food. Basicly I can\'t agree this statement, because that\'s another changing that humans lay on animals.','',0,'kA==','29v2hkfb',1,0,'',1472,0,0),(16506,1931,30,1475,0,'68.204.42.154',1161728084,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','i heard about this...','chicken patti stuff that isnt realy chicken but it tasts just like chicken...is this true and if so what is it called','',0,'kA==','2d8e0tlb',1,0,'',1475,0,0),(16510,1718,8,1245,0,'74.68.36.162',1161729408,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Diana&quot;:2st1a53t]Automatic Man: There are plenty of dumb youth in the world, as well as plenty of dumb older people. Just as there are some great youth and some great elderly. \n\nEver heard of Cynthia O\'Neill who managed through her efforts to get the HillGrove cat farm closed?\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.nzavs.org.nz/materials/cathell.html\">http://www.nzavs.org.nz/materials/cathell.html</a><!-- m -->[/quote:2st1a53t]\n\naw i want to read it.. did it close in the end?','',0,'gA==','2st1a53t',1,0,'',1245,0,0),(16514,1931,30,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1161754731,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There are several kinds. Some are vegan some not. I know off hand that Morningstar makes a vegan chicken strip. \n\nHere is a link to one type of Vegan Chicken patty \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.healthiswealthfoods.com/products/chickfree-pat.htm\">http://www.healthiswealthfoods.com/prod ... ee-pat.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nHere is a link to another vegan(?) one this one may be more readily available\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.bocaburger.com/boca_productinfo.aspx?product=5928360007\">http://www.bocaburger.com/boca_producti ... 5928360007</a><!-- m -->\n\nEDIT: Health Is Wealth is true vegan for those seeking full vegan status. Boca has sugar in it I have not checked to see if the sugar is vegan, Boca is vegan in so far as much as no dairy or eggs. Many manufacturers do not understand that many vegans avoid certain sugars so you will have to make the ethical call yourself.\n\nHope it helps!\n\nVeganAngel','',0,'gA==','1410ibt3',1,0,'',372,0,0),(16528,22,15,111,0,'84.255.203.133',1161776617,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Lizzeh&quot;:1fyk02te]Because it\'s your own will, not theres. A dog is a fles-eating animal, why should you change the nature.[/quote:1fyk02te]\nI don\'t think dogs care if their meals are vegan or not. They want tasty, healthy food and a lot of love, that\'s all. And the dog still has a choice: to eat or not to eat <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> (if the dog chooses not to eat vegan food, you can still later give him/her some meat). I\'ve even heard of dogs that stopped eating meat on their own. Also, amazing story about [url=http&#58;//www&#46;vegetarismus&#46;ch/vegepet/tyke&#46;htm:1fyk02te]vegetarian lioness[/url:1fyk02te] (I promise it\'s worth reading).','',0,'kA==','1fyk02te',1,0,'',111,0,0),(16547,22,15,1472,0,'81.71.91.128',1161809027,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;FreeQ&quot;:1c8lw5em][quote=&quot;Lizzeh&quot;:1c8lw5em]Because it\'s your own will, not theres. A dog is a fles-eating animal, why should you change the nature.[/quote:1c8lw5em]\nI don\'t think dogs care if their meals are vegan or not. They want tasty, healthy food and a lot of love, that\'s all. And the dog still has a choice: to eat or not to eat <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> (if the dog chooses not to eat vegan food, you can still later give him/her some meat). I\'ve even heard of dogs that stopped eating meat on their own. Also, amazing story about [url=http&#58;//www&#46;vegetarismus&#46;ch/vegepet/tyke&#46;htm:1c8lw5em]vegetarian lioness[/url:1c8lw5em] (I promise it\'s worth reading).[/quote:1c8lw5em]\nThanks for the advice. I shall read it when I have enough time. But I guess I\'m not changing my point of view, though.','',0,'kA==','1c8lw5em',1,0,'',1472,0,0),(16752,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1162315125,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','This time of year Im invaded by lady bugs.They looking for a warm place to spend winter.They in the house,my chair,shoes and last nite they was in my glass of wine.I dont hav nothing aganst lady bugs but they not house broke.Wen theres 100s of them coming in the house all day thru the tinest crack they start leeving a smell.Iv accidently steped on them and sat on them.It takes me a couple hours to sweep them up and put them back outside every evening.It must be a country thing cuz my frend in town dont hav this problem.Its rite crazy and goes on till it gets cold.Any yall go thru this?','',0,'kA==','1qr8vfmw',1,0,'',454,0,0),(16753,1282,33,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1162315438,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','What can I tell ya Kriter.......the &quot;Ladies&quot; just can\'t resist you.....\n..well, who can blame them? <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'kA==','1ch09lrv',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16777,933,22,1513,0,'81.132.54.242',1162330395,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It is a tricky issue, but in my opinion euthanasia is okay. When I find half mushed insects I usually finish them off and say a quick prayer.','',0,'kA==','3rb7iw8k',1,0,'',1513,0,0),(16780,933,22,674,0,'81.152.47.138',1162330935,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'m not sure where I stand. But \'half-mushed insects\' are not as much a case as humans and bigger animals (Don\'t get me wrong I think that\'s great that you acknowledge arthropods and their suffering) If you found a cat with an anvil on it\'s body not many would deny the him or her the right to a quick death. Just going to another earlier post, my mum works with people with mental illnesses and many are on suicide watch. People who have had breakdowns etc are not in the right frame of mind to decide that and many recover. Euthanasia is, in my opinion, like abortion you really can\'t take one direct stance.','',0,'kA==','3vu8ngar',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16784,1848,15,1513,0,'81.132.54.242',1162332007,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Well, I come from a Spiritualist background, and so I know quite a bit on this subject. Yes, Spiritualism is very animal friendly and there was a discussion by the SNU (Spirit. national union) as to whether vegeratianism should become one of the key principles of the religion. And there are animal spirits, and they are often seen by mediums, but it\'s not really publicised. Although, its not as animal friendly as the Hare Krishna\'s','',0,'kA==','11jxbp42',1,0,'',1513,0,0),(16791,1362,16,1494,0,'82.29.91.139',1162344813,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Respect, you can get BUAV approved toothpaste (and mouthwash) in your local co-op. I use it and it\'s good.','',0,'kA==','2w9dl0ux',1,0,'',1494,0,0),(16792,1282,33,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1162345048,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have it somewhat Kriter but not in the volume you explain. I seem to get more spiders my cellar is a partial dirt floor so I get all sorts of creepy crawlies year round. All of which I trap and release (spring summer and fall) winter I just throw them back in the cellar. I am a softie but those robot spiders are just to cute to throw in the snow.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'kA==','3dhl7lg6',1,0,'',372,0,0),(16800,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1162382261,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','From what Im understanding.Asian lady bugs was releesed in the US to control the population of sum other bug that was eating plants and didnt hav a predator.So every since that was dun Iv had lady bugs moving in every Fall.I get other bugs in the house year round like your saying Angel but not like these lady bugs.Theres hundreds of them.My house faces South and on a suny day them lady bugs are alover the front of the house.My siding is metal so its warm.They like that.But they leev their bizness everywair and it gets to smelling and theres littl trails on the walls.\nIm wanting to paint the inside of my house but hav to wait for the lady bugs to calm down.Wen winter sets in theyll sloly disapear.\nI reckon till then theres nothing to do but sweep them up everyday wen I get home from work.And whine and belly ach about them.','',0,'kA==','2uhgn9xp',1,0,'',454,0,0),(16810,22,15,1519,0,'84.98.55.64',1162391925,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hello,\n\nMy dogs are all the two vegetarians. I give them croquettes vegan, mark [i:fx4v0zet]Friend Dog[/i:fx4v0zet]. They are in very good health.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://ami.aminews.net/index.php?lang=en\">http://ami.aminews.net/index.php?lang=en</a><!-- m -->','',0,'IA==','fx4v0zet',1,0,'',1519,0,0),(16829,933,22,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1162420573,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;joroberts17&quot;:2lbrm949]I think animals who are suffering should be helped to die, in a painless way. Humans who want to die should also be allowed to How dare the government try and tell us how we can and cannot die? Bastards.[/quote:2lbrm949]\n\n   I agree Joanne. In most cases it\'s an act of love.....something we wish\nsomeone would do for us if we were suffering and in pain.\n\n    I don\'t know what happens to us or animals when we die. Maybe nothing or maybe we go to a better place????\n\n    What I do know for a fact is, this is a very harsh and frightening world\nespecially for defensless animals.','',0,'gA==','2lbrm949',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16853,933,22,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1162464923,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I believe that the animal and human has a right to euthanasia if they are suffering.','',0,'gA==','sydy9kt8',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16864,754,18,376,0,'212.74.187.81',1162491886,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I started smoking again. But this time it\'s to help control an illness that flared up when I stopped. The nicotine in the cigarettes helps keep it in check. But I am only smoking two or three a day.','',0,'gA==','3iu287yj',1,0,'',376,0,0),(16865,754,18,674,0,'81.152.47.138',1162492482,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','That sound so strange- smoking to control an illness!','',0,'gA==','3v5bw3z5',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16869,754,18,376,0,'212.74.187.81',1162499159,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;AutomaticMan&quot;:17l8rbg1]That sound so strange- smoking to control an illness![/quote:17l8rbg1]\n\nYup, it does sound strange.','',0,'gA==','17l8rbg1',1,0,'',376,0,0),(16876,754,18,1507,0,'24.37.5.179',1162519570,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','heh I smoke too, but it\'s about 3-5 cigarettes a week, and I\'m trying to get it down, I never really smoke more than 3-5 a week. As for keeping that illness away, maybe 1 a day is better, 3 seems a bit much, considering the risk of other problems coming from nicotine, well from commercial cigarrettes. Are you sure nicotine is the only medicine for that disease?','',0,'gA==','eckm9zq7',1,0,'',1507,0,0),(16884,1974,10,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162550701,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','How can we still have animals in circuses','How can this still happen?  Mary Copperfield (hopefully thats the right name), all the stuff that was brought to the media attention of her cruelty - hasn\'t that done anything to help?  Forgive me if I am being slow about this!','',0,'gA==','3jgx67c9',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16885,1974,10,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1162551245,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Because people still find animals in circuses entertaining, so there\'s a market for it. And people will exploit that market...;\\','',0,'gA==','3shtkr1e',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16886,1974,10,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162551357,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Obviously there was nothing put in place to ban it then?  I thought there was - not that that would of made much diffference I guess!','',0,'gA==','34f6c5lb',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16889,1974,10,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1162553927,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Even tho information has been thron out there about animals in circuses and it hasnt stoped animals in circuses.We cant stop throing the info out there.People are slo wen it comes to thinking in a diferent way but we got to keep telling them in everyway there is till they catch up.People woodnt be dun this way,critters shudnt either.','',0,'gA==','qek4xm6p',1,0,'',454,0,0),(16890,1974,10,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162554565,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','If anyone can let me know of a good link explaining all this stuff for my forum please lt me know or post it yourselves on my forum.\n\nI saw the video about Copperfield from Animal Defenders a while back (I think it was AD) and it horrified me - would like to spread the word about this more.','',0,'gA==','3niu5c4g',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16891,1975,19,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162555409,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','My cat blog','Thought I\'d share my babies with you \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://felinebehaviour.blogspot.com/\">http://felinebehaviour.blogspot.com/</a><!-- m -->','',0,'gA==','2o7ad6wn',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16899,1975,19,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1162562243,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: My cat blog','[quote=&quot;freyacat&quot;:2dm8hjgz]Thought I\'d share my babies with you \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://felinebehaviour.blogspot.com/\">http://felinebehaviour.blogspot.com/</a><!-- m -->[/quote:2dm8hjgz]\n\n And everyone a treasure! Thank you sharing. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','2dm8hjgz',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16900,754,18,1015,0,'205.188.116.201',1162562773,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I smoked most of my life but fianlly quit about 5 years ago. You all know\nthe benifits of quitting......but if you\'re vegan/vegetarian theres one\nnot so pleasant side effect.......your sense of smell becomes very acute\n.......and being around people who eat dead animals there\'s always that\nfaint aroma of rotting flesh <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->','',0,'gA==','fkcfvnty',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16901,1975,19,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162562777,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: My cat blog','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:2194zyp4][quote=&quot;freyacat&quot;:2194zyp4]Thought I\'d share my babies with you \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://felinebehaviour.blogspot.com/\">http://felinebehaviour.blogspot.com/</a><!-- m -->[/quote:2194zyp4]\n\n And everyone a treasure! Thank you sharing. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:2194zyp4]\n\nAwww thank you, I love them so much, they are my babies','',0,'gA==','2194zyp4',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16902,754,18,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162562885,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I smoked for 17 years and quit 2 years ago, I had tried everything but this time I stopped using Nicorette inhalers - would recommend them 100%','',0,'gA==','ctth09q9',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16903,1975,19,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1162563081,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','When I was reading what you said about going to the shelter just to &quot;look&quot; it reminded me of this beautiful poem about Pet Loss.\n\nSorrow fills a barren space, \nyou close your eyes and see my face\nand think of times I made you laugh, \nthe love we shared, the bond we had, \nthe special way I needed you -\n the friendship shared by just we two.\n\n   The day\'s too quiet, the world seems older,\nthe wind blows now a little colder.\nYou gaze into the empty air \nand look for me, but I\'m not there - \nI\'m in heaven and I watch you, \nbut I see the world around you too.\n\nI see little souls wearing fur,\nsouls who bark and souls who purr\nborn unwanted and unloved - \nI see all this and more above - \n\nI watch them suffer, I see them cry,\nI see them lost, I watch them die.\nI see unwanted thousands born - \nand when they die, nobody mourns.\n\nThese little souls wearing fur\n(Some who bark and some who purr)\nare castaways who - unlike me - \nwill never know love or security.\n \nA few short months they starve and roam,\nOr caged in shelters - nobody takes home. \nThey\'re special too (furballs of pleasure),\nfilled with love and each one, a treasure. \n\nMy pain and suffering came to an end,\nso don\'t cry for me, my person, my friend.\nBut think of the living - those souls with fur\n(some who bark and some who purr) - \nAnd though our bond can\'t be broken apart,\nmake room for another in your home and your heart.\n\nThis splendid poem was written by: \nCaro Schubert-James  &amp; Posted at:    <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.petloss.com\">www.petloss.com</a><!-- w -->    in 1996','',0,'gA==','321vqaq6',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16904,1975,19,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162563854,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Oh my that is so beautiful Im actually crying  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->  thank you for sharing.','',0,'gA==','1eqh42se',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16910,1975,19,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1162564637,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;freyacat&quot;:3rxuhp88]Oh my that is so beautiful Im actually crying  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->  thank you for sharing.[/quote:3rxuhp88]\n\n   Now you see why I said &quot;Every one a treasure&quot; but I forgot to add,\n you &amp; your husband are also very, very special for adopting them.\n\n    Please share that poem with as many as you can.....that poem has\nhelped many a shelter animal find a good home. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','3rxuhp88',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16911,1975,19,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162564787,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I will do hun and thanks for your kind words - wish we could adopt more - we are currently looking for bigger property so we can get more  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','23bqfyug',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16912,1975,19,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1162564895,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Cute kitties and a sad but pretty poem. Generally whenever a pet of mine days I get another usually within two to three days. I have never gotten people who say it is to painful when they die so never again. A new fuzzy helps ease the pain.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','37a9u4qk',1,0,'',372,0,0),(16915,1975,19,1015,0,'205.188.116.11',1162566807,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:hg5wupn5]Cute kitties and a sad but pretty poem. Generally whenever a pet of mine dies I get another usually within two to three days. I have never gotten people who say it is to painful when they die so never again. A new fuzzy helps ease the pain.\n\nVeganAngel_RI[/quote:hg5wupn5]\n\n\n    Absolutely! Surround that pain with the joy of taking someone out\nof a cage or off the mean streets into a loving home....what could be better? \n[url=http&#58;//imageshack&#46;us:hg5wupn5][img:hg5wupn5]http&#58;//img95&#46;imageshack&#46;us/img95/4619/0cat20lounginghn8&#46;gif[/img:hg5wupn5][/url:hg5wupn5]','',0,'mA==','hg5wupn5',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(16916,1974,10,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1162566915,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Im sory I dont kno nothing about Mary Copperfield but I kno PETA has lots info about circuses.Im fixing to get leaflets and stuff used for a protest myself.Maybe try their site.Theres ways of geting holt of them there.Hope Im helping sumkinda way.','',0,'mA==','1lnvxh3e',1,0,'',454,0,0),(16918,754,18,674,0,'81.152.47.138',1162572527,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Eeeee... All these smokers!','',0,'mA==','a66jg380',1,0,'',674,0,0),(16965,1437,16,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162664362,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Always','',0,'mA==','14fflki9',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16966,1437,16,575,0,'81.156.157.49',1162664498,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','As much as I can - I still live with my parents so they buy the household products.','',0,'mA==','3qtoy872',1,0,'',575,0,0),(16967,1437,16,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162664554,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:5fpyra5v]As much as I can - I still live with my parents so they buy the household products.[/quote:5fpyra5v]\n\nWhen I lived at home I used to put the cruelty stuff down the drains - my parents were never happy but they got the message <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','5fpyra5v',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(16969,1437,16,1519,0,'84.99.150.48',1162667726,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;freyacat&quot;:2bxjktxs]Always[/quote:2bxjktxs]\n\n\nIdem ...  <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'gA==','2bxjktxs',1,0,'',1519,0,0),(17028,1848,15,719,0,'24.47.5.56',1162741642,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hi,\n\nI don\'t know if animals have souls, but the bilble says that the lion will lay\n\nwith the lamb. In Gods perfect world animals will be ther with us, If you\n\nbelieve that sort of thing. Animals were never meant to be treated by\n\nman the way they are. It also says that even the animals long for an end to \n\nall this madness, well not in those exact words but thats the meaning.\n\nI think animals play a very important role with us in life and death. Thier \n\nbeauty is beyond words. I would not want to live in the after life without\n\nthem.\n\nvicky','',0,'gA==','puf1eclh',1,0,'',719,0,0),(17038,1848,15,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162742639,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am wiccan and from what I have found most wiccans and pagans are very animal friendly','',0,'gA==','26e2j6km',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(17049,1362,16,19,0,'24.12.87.167',1162745115,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have been using Natures Gate toothpaste.  The taste is incredible and there are lots of varieties.','',0,'gA==','17dyx430',1,0,'',19,0,0),(17126,1437,16,1081,0,'121.113.12.19',1162793536,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Do you have Lush in New Zealand? I like their &quot;Trichomania&quot; shampoo.','',0,'gA==','3t1y5cwt',1,0,'',1081,0,0),(17167,1974,10,1540,0,'83.147.169.155',1162839237,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','besides the cruelty of people that keep forcing animals to perform and look ridicoulous , what worries me is the also the people who bring their children to the circus.\nbecause at the end of the day circuses are made for children right? and i find appalling that parents do not have enough brain to teach their children to LOVE animals.','',0,'gA==','tess885g',1,0,'',1540,0,0),(17195,1999,28,1541,0,'217.155.83.110',1162856663,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','legally liberate 13,500 chickens in April','an APPEAL to you all.\nWe have the opportunity to legally liberate 13,500 chickens in April . (near brighton|)\nwe desperately need homes for them. Please please let us know if you can help.us\nwhether it is 1, 10 or 100 we would love to hear from you.\nwe also need boxes vehicles and drivers. as soon as we have the dates.\nwe\nwill send them out.Please\ncall\nHelen on 07779 128239 or <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:info@brightonanimalaction.org\">info@brightonanimalaction.org</a><!-- e --> if you can help.\n\nIt really is a matter of life or death.\n\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.brightonanimalaction.org\">www.brightonanimalaction.org</a><!-- w -->','',0,'gA==','1b4avt30',1,0,'',1541,0,0),(17199,2001,12,1439,0,'74.12.57.250',1162859229,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','AETA.....very scary','For all of those in North America, for all activists worldwide, we cannot ignore this legislation.  This just goes to show how loud our voices are, how the sole purpose of trying to stop the forward progression of animal rights is down to the almighty dollar.  The article below is very frightening but cannot deter those who believe in fighting for the greater good, the animals.\n\nOn September 29, the U.S. Senate unanimously approved S. 3880, the Senate version of the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act (AETA). If enacted into law, the Act could define as a terrorist act any activity causing a business classified as an &quot;animal enterprise&quot; to suffer a profit loss—even if such financial decline is caused by peaceful protests, boycotts, media campaigns or leafleting.\n\n\nFOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, October 30, 2006\n\nCONTACT: Heidi Boghosian, NLG Executive Director, 212-679-5100, ext. 11\nMarjorie Cohn, NLG President, 619-374-6923, marjorie@tjsl. edu \n\nNATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD OPPOSES ANIMAL ENTERPRISE TERRORISM ACT \nThe National Lawyers Guild strongly opposes the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act (H.R. 4239/S. 3880 (as amended and passed by the Senate)). \n\nOn September 29, the U.S. Senate unanimously approved S. 3880, the Senate version of the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act (AETA). If enacted into law, the Act could define as a terrorist act any activity causing a business classified as an &quot;animal enterprise&quot; to suffer a profit loss—even if such financial decline is caused by peaceful protests, boycotts, media campaigns or leafleting.\n\nThe AETA contains vague and overbroad language that may be read to criminalize legitimate activities, such as an email campaign protesting actions of a corporation. Furthermore, laws already exist to penalize the kind of activities this Act targets, such as the 1992 Animal Enterprise Protection Act. The AETA will increase the likelihood of misguided prosecutions, and will also serve as a deterrent to a host of lawful, First Amendment protected activities.\n\nGuild President Marjorie Cohn said, “The AETA could lead to the prosecution of undercover investigators, whistle-blowers and other activists as ‘terrorists.’ It defines ‘economic damage’ as including ‘the loss of profits.’ Such broad language puts all activists at risk; those activists who aren’t prosecuted under the AETA will still feel the chilling effect of its ‘terrorist’ language.â€','',0,'gA==','25zcaxx9',1,0,'',1439,0,0),(17210,1974,10,1123,0,'84.30.73.160',1162890236,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','a 2 months ago we had a demo against animals in circuses. Lots of people explained that they didn\'t find it wrong to use animals in circuses  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'gA==','1vc68wbl',1,0,'',1123,0,0),(17211,1974,10,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1162891108,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;raymond&quot;:1xc9ib3f]a 2 months ago we had a demo against animals in circuses. Lots of people explained that they didn\'t find it wrong to use animals in circuses  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->[/quote:1xc9ib3f]\n\nHow can they not find it wrong ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I don\'t understand!  There are so many reasons why its wrong - ARE THESE PEOPLE STUIPID!!!!!??????','',0,'gA==','1xc9ib3f',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(17216,2004,1,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1162899462,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Dont forget to vote','for all you americans out there,  dont forget to vote.  It is your one chance to make a difference.  No matter what side of the issue you are on, please vote.  Please die all over the world for the right to vote.  I believe it is an slap in their face at the low turn out rate we have for the polls here in the states.\n\n\nget out there and exersize your constitutional rights.','',0,'gA==','abht8hdr',1,0,'',643,0,0),(17220,2001,12,1507,0,'206.167.101.2',1162904718,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','This is pure Bulls**! <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: -->  We need an North America-wide action, like demos all over against that, on a pre-determined day.','',0,'gA==','b6ibndv1',1,0,'',1507,0,0),(17221,1974,10,1507,0,'206.167.101.2',1162905023,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;freyacat&quot;:10syoud8][quote=&quot;raymond&quot;:10syoud8]a 2 months ago we had a demo against animals in circuses. Lots of people explained that they didn\'t find it wrong to use animals in circuses  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->[/quote:10syoud8]\n\nHow can they not find it wrong ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I don\'t understand!  There are so many reasons why its wrong - ARE THESE PEOPLE STUIPID!!!!!??????[/quote:10syoud8]\n\nIt seems they are...','',0,'gA==','10syoud8',1,0,'',1507,0,0),(17222,2006,16,719,0,'24.47.5.56',1162907605,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','has anyone tried method cleaning products','I use method products for cleaning they smell awsome,clean great and are earth and animal friendly.\n\nHas anyone else used them and liked them. I found them at target while I was reading lables for crulety free products. \n\nThey have this wood cleaner that smells like almonds and dosn\'t leave a greasy feel  but a nice shine.\n\nI probably sound crazy going on about cleaning products but I love things that work,smell good, and hurt no one.\n\nThanks\nvicky','',0,'gA==','3ry8ocoq',1,0,'',719,0,0),(17223,2001,12,1439,0,'69.28.196.152',1162908439,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','If there was ever a time to unite as a large organized group so that our voices are louder than ever and cannot be ignored, that time is now!','',0,'gA==','2074qwv8',1,0,'',1439,0,0),(17224,1999,28,1541,0,'217.155.83.110',1162908872,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','just to keep you all updated.\n\nChickens:\nWe have had a fantastic response and now have homes for 1300 hens, which is great but there is still a long way to go. We still need drivers, vehicles, boxes (these are becoming a big challenge – they need to be fairly sturdy, with air holes and can stack one on top of another. Also they can’t come from a farm or sanctuary unless they have been sterilised as there is a risk of contamination) and also we need financial assistance the fuel and boxes are going to cost a fortune so if anyone can make a donation it would be really appreciated. Please make cheques or postal orders payable to BRIGHTON ANIMAL ACTION and send them to our new po box address below. Anything you can give will really help. Thank you \n\nPostal address:\nWe now have a postal address and correspondence can be sent to: \nBAA\nC/O Brighton Animal Rights Campaigns,\nPO Box 307\nBrighton \nBN2 1HW','',0,'gA==','r3b4ywkm',1,0,'',1541,0,0),(17230,2006,16,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1162914992,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have not even heard of method. But you do not sound crazy by saying you do not use animal tested products. Many people on this board myself included use non animal tested products. I usually use Seventh Generation no animal testing and vegetable based rather than oil.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2q9patx9',1,0,'',372,0,0),(17235,2006,16,719,0,'24.47.5.56',1162920147,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks vegan angel\n\nI have also used seventh generation and they are great also.\n\nMethod I think is new to the market. They are posted on all of the cruelty fee sites,but I found them by reading lables.\n\nThere dish detergent is cucumber melon and the whole kitchen smells like it when you wash the dishes. Their shower spray is ylang ylang and is fabulous.\n\nI should be getting paid for this <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> .\n\nAgain thanks','',0,'gA==','kv2obuz0',1,0,'',719,0,0),(17238,1999,28,889,0,'86.143.3.155',1162925233,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don\'t understand. Why are these chickens being released?','',0,'gA==','1upvztky',1,0,'',889,0,0),(17239,1840,3,1403,0,'86.129.28.78',1162925694,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I do agree with you that animal rights is a sounder theory, and a clearer statement of what needs to change.\n\nAs someone who\'s new to the whole movement, one thing that I might find difficult on a practical level is saying to people who I used to eat meat/dairy with that I now want all of these things to change.  I would feel like a bit of a hypocrite for condemning people for things that I have only discovered/decided to be immoral in the last year or so.  I expect that many of you have been living a non-speciecist lifestyle for a long time, but does anyone else feel a bit like this?  Like they can agree logically with all that the article at the top says, but they feel like they can\'t push too strongly for it when they\'ve been guilty of such crimes not so many years ago?','',0,'gA==','3b8e8fuv',1,0,'',1403,0,0),(17240,1840,3,1015,0,'64.12.116.198',1162926509,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;societyschild&quot;:28385q5b]I do agree with you that animal rights is a sounder theory, and a clearer statement of what needs to change.\n\nAs someone who\'s new to the whole movement, one thing that I might find difficult on a practical level is saying to people who I used to eat meat/dairy with that I now want all of these things to change.  I would feel like a bit of a hypocrite for condemning people for things that I have only discovered/decided to be immoral in the last year or so.  I expect that many of you have been living a non-speciecist lifestyle for a long time, but does anyone else feel a bit like this?  Like they can agree logically with all that the article at the top says, but they feel like they can\'t push too strongly for it when they\'ve been guilty of such crimes not so many years ago?[/quote:28385q5b]\n\n   Oh but this is perfect...don\'t you see? You can use yourself as an example. I\'ve done that lots times. For example.....many times people\nsay to me......&quot;so, you think because I eat meat, I don\'t really care about animals?&quot;  \n\n     And I tell them straight out[i:28385q5b].......&quot;Listen, I HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE. I used to be the biggist hypocrite going....I was\nalways on about how much I loved animals and how I hated abuse and all\nthat but I went right on eating them! And Why????? I don\'t know......just\nbrainwashed or not too bright or something. Sure.....I FINALLY wised up\nbut believe me, I have no right to criticize ANYBODY.....as bad as I was&quot;[/i:28385q5b]    \n\n   Then walk away and let it sink in <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'oA==','28385q5b',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(17250,1974,10,124,0,'208.38.12.26',1162929687,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;freyacat- ARE THESE PEOPLE STUIPID!!!!!??????[/quote]\n\nOh yah.  Obviously dense as hell.','',0,'','1u312wuz',1,0,'',124,0,0),(17258,1999,28,1541,0,'217.155.83.110',1162944038,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','they are egg laying hens, and supermarkets wont buy eggs from a hen that is over 18 months of age. so they get slaughter men in every 18 months.\n\nthey are worth 50 p to £1 to the farmer(from what ive been told)\nwe are not paying the farmer anything to get the chickens.','',0,'','3fgpqg3u',1,0,'',1541,0,0),(17259,1974,10,1540,0,'83.147.169.155',1162945340,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','i really wonder what people are really like...are they aware of what\'s going on or they just dont care?\n\ni dont want to believe there can be this indifference but at the same time how can they not know?? it\'s clear to everyone\'s eyes that animals in circuses are tortured basically and they suffer terribly...if they cant see it i just assume they have no heart and no brain and they r worthless.\ni find it hard to tolerate (and i actually dont) this situation...\n\nparents bringing people to the circus, telling them it\'s fun, probably lying to them about the real conditions (because, oh my god, u cannot upset a child!)\ni  think that all this is going on rather than\n...reading about elephants for example, reading that they can recognize themselves in the mirror and clean their own faces...\nthis would really stimulate a child\'s imagination...','',0,'','oq3jr9us',1,0,'',1540,0,0),(17277,484,12,1559,0,'195.93.21.70',1162998975,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You can only get arrested if you get caught. That\'s where their problems lie.','',0,'','t0ipvff9',1,0,'',1559,0,0),(17283,1974,10,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1163003120,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I remember as a child always wanting to go to circuses but my parents never took me as they told me it was bad and attracted a low class of people. I remember once I sneaked to one and thought how ridiculous it was even as a child when I saw the inside of a circus I did not like it. How adults cannot figure this out is beyond me. The funny oart is after sneaking in I saw enough after less than a half hour and I was I think 11.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'','22920e3y',1,0,'',372,0,0),(17287,2011,5,1519,0,'86.75.120.78',1163008316,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Wool = Museling','Escuse, my english\n\n\n\n[color=darkred:1xq9xvu7][b:1xq9xvu7]MUSELING[/b:1xq9xvu7] [/color:1xq9xvu7]\n\nThe wool\n\n\nThe museling is one of the most current and atrocious practice to take wool of the sheep. The wool represents much suffering, the sheep which one takes wool are in a sorry state and suffer considerably. Each years the sheep undergo this practice. The purpose of it is to avoid the infections of parasites. The farmer cuts out the flesh around the genitals. Just like the castration and the cut of the tail, this operation proceeds without anaesthesia. Currently, one exploits more than 100 million sheep. Australia produced wool 30% for the whole world. In Australia, the sheep which are most generally high are the merinos, resulting from the crossing of the local race arlésienne with the merino of Spain appreciated for the smoothness of its wool. \n\n\nMuseling: The farmers force the sheep with mettrent themselves on the back, and retain their legs between the metal bars. Without the least anaesthesia, they cut out large pieces of flesh around the tail (the rear-axle unit). This is done to prevent that the flies do not lay eggs in the folds of the skin. The wounds thus exposed are bloody and the sheep yield pains. The sheep are individuals who feel pain, fear and loneliness, like the other animals. But because of the trade whose they are the object, they are treated like simple machines to produce wool.\n\n\n\n <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> \n\n\n[url=http&#58;//imageshack&#46;us:1xq9xvu7][img:1xq9xvu7]http&#58;//img177&#46;imageshack&#46;us/img177/5262/lambinrestraintaftermulyg5&#46;jpg[/img:1xq9xvu7][/url:1xq9xvu7]\n\n[url=http&#58;//imageshack&#46;us:1xq9xvu7][img:1xq9xvu7]http&#58;//img120&#46;imageshack&#46;us/img120/1213/museling13mptn7&#46;jpg[/img:1xq9xvu7][/url:1xq9xvu7]\n\n\nVidéo :\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=save_the_sheep\">http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp ... _the_sheep</a><!-- m -->','',0,'Wg==','1xq9xvu7',1,0,'',1519,0,0),(17291,2011,5,1391,0,'129.67.17.59',1163011803,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It almost seems counter intuitive. You would think the sheep would be more vulnerable to infections and infestations with an open wound than if it had been left alone.','',0,'Wg==','gsabrj3x',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(17304,1840,3,1403,0,'86.129.28.78',1163024780,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','That\'s really quite a good way of doing it.  I\'ll give it a go.  Thanks!','',0,'Wg==','2c00vh25',1,0,'',1403,0,0),(17314,1840,3,1564,0,'129.97.77.157',1163038259,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Animal welfare may want to alleviate the pain these animals suffer though, but they have nothing to say about the animals\' thoughts or feelings. The exploitation of the animals for food, entertainment, and experimentation is not humane, whether or not they feel pain.','',0,'Wg==','1t77n2ji',1,0,'',1564,0,0),(17339,1840,3,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1163086767,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Jordan&quot;:3gtbpzqz]Animal welfare may want to alleviate the pain these animals suffer though, but they have nothing to say about the animals\' thoughts or feelings. The exploitation of the animals for food, entertainment, and experimentation is not humane, whether or not they feel pain.[/quote:3gtbpzqz]\n\n  Oh you are SO RIGHT!  Why does it take people so long to see that.\n     I\'d love to put some of these &quot;Animal Welfare&quot; people in clean cages\nwith fresh food &amp; water daily and see how [i:3gtbpzqz]THEY[/i:3gtbpzqz] like it.\n\n    I wish people would wise up........am I hoping for too much?','',0,'oA==','3gtbpzqz',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(17347,1840,3,1563,0,'129.97.77.204',1163091032,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The whole article does not say anything about using animal welfare in conjunction with animal rights. What I was thinking of is seizing any opportunity available to reduce the stress/suffering of animals all the while still heavily fighting for animal rights. The article just talks about using animal welfare in order to reach the ultimate goal of animal rights. But how about using them together? It seems okay to me to ensure that animals are not suffering too much while they are &quot;waiting&quot; to obtain rights...?  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'oA==','1y1t1dt6',1,0,'',1563,0,0),(17348,1840,3,1563,0,'129.97.77.204',1163091383,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:1e33i24d][quote=&quot;Jordan&quot;:1e33i24d]Animal welfare may want to alleviate the pain these animals suffer though, but they have nothing to say about the animals\' thoughts or feelings. The exploitation of the animals for food, entertainment, and experimentation is not humane, whether or not they feel pain.[/quote:1e33i24d]\n\n  Oh you are SO RIGHT!  Why does it take people so long to see that.\n     I\'d love to put some of these &quot;Animal Welfare&quot; people in clean cages\nwith fresh food &amp; water daily and see how [i:1e33i24d]THEY[/i:1e33i24d] like it.\n\n    I wish people would wise up........am I hoping for too much?[/quote:1e33i24d]\n\nI quite agree. I think that a lot of our problems with rigour would be solved if we could somehow prove that animals are indeed self-aware and possess a consciousness similar to our own. It seems to me that many people are still follorwers of Descartes in thinking that animals are just &quot;gene machines&quot; who act only in response to &quot;instincts&quot;. I also think that a big part of the reason why we are so careful in contributing any type of consciousness to animals is because we find it so difficult to explain consciousness. However, it is even hard to explain it in ourselves so there is no need to invoke the notion that animals do not have consciousness. In fact, I would consider it a simpler and less &quot;ad-hoc&quot; explanation if we were to say that animals have consciousness too: after all, why did consciousness magically appear in us of all species and not in other animals for sokme strange reason? We are all part of the same evolutionary process...','',0,'oA==','1e33i24d',1,0,'',1563,0,0),(17350,1840,3,1563,0,'129.97.77.204',1163091558,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','So consciousness would provide a &quot;reason&quot; why animals should have rights.','',0,'oA==','5dgunzkv',1,0,'',1563,0,0),(17351,1840,3,1564,0,'129.97.77.159',1163091956,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree of course. Humans are not unique in their ability to be conscious of their surroundings. I also believe that many animals, just like humans, desire and need more in their lives than just eating, sleeping, and copulating. I do not think our curiosity or sense of freedom is unique to humans only. I do not know of any evidence that supports this, but it just makes sense from an evolutionary view.','',0,'oA==','1uoc32tk',1,0,'',1564,0,0),(17352,1840,3,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1163092004,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;michnele&quot;:2ek8tidt]The whole article does not say anything about using animal welfare in conjunction with animal rights. What I was thinking of is seizing any opportunity available to reduce the stress/suffering of animals all the while still heavily fighting for animal rights. The article just talks about using animal welfare in order to reach the ultimate goal of animal rights. But how about using them together? It seems okay to me to ensure that animals are not suffering too much while they are &quot;waiting&quot; to obtain rights...?  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->[/quote:2ek8tidt]\n\n I know what you\'re saying and there\'s no organization that does this\n[i:2ek8tidt]&quot;animal welfare in conjunction with animal rights&quot;[/i:2ek8tidt] better then PETA\n\n   I think the problem some of us have when we hear the words &quot;Animal Welfare&quot; is like a few others pointed out.....animal welfare actually condones killing &amp; eating animals.\n\n    I say I\'m for AR all the way.......but anytime I can do something like\nwrite a letter or sign a petition for better conditions, of course I\'ll do it....\nand I believe most of us do that.','',0,'oA==','2ek8tidt',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(17353,2018,3,1563,0,'129.97.77.204',1163092061,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Consciousness','I said in another thread that I believe that the recognition that animals have consciousness would greatly help us justify our animal rights perspective.\n\nI was just wondering whether anyone has any information and/or opinions to share on this topic.\n\nI will start by posting this interesting review:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/308650.html\">http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/308650.html</a><!-- m -->','',0,'oA==','3dg5pee5',1,0,'',1563,0,0),(17354,1840,3,1563,0,'129.97.77.204',1163092225,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I guess that this is just a confusion of definitions then. Thank you for the clarification.','',0,'oA==','1dgke1x8',1,0,'',1563,0,0),(17355,1840,3,719,0,'24.47.5.56',1163092662,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','hi,\n\nI totally agree Michnele that is the best goal. We are not going to get the entire world to stop eating meat overnight. Why not work towards better lives for them.\n\nEach victory is a step in the right direction. Execpt for experimentation that should be out lawed.\n\nThe idea of injecting,disecting,burning,and everything else they do to my little friends makes me nuts.\n\nIf we could get rid of all the mutilations on farm animals,the sow crates,battery cages,force feeding,veal crates. That would help until we can finally free them.\n\nI don\'t know just a thought. Its so frustrating,when you think of the mass scale of it all you just want to blow your brains out.\n\n\nThanks vicky','',0,'oA==','rxccd8og',1,0,'',719,0,0),(17357,2018,3,1564,0,'129.97.77.159',1163093260,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I do not think the consciousness of all animals can be compared. All animals have all evolved in different circumstances and we have developed minds suitable for our own unique environments.\n\nBesides, there is no evolutionary reason for a human to understand, for instance, abstract mathematics. So how are we able to study it and think about it? If it is merely a byproduct of our mind development, how do we know that other animals don\'t have this same potential for abstract thought? It doesn\'t have to be math either. It can be anything from our perception of free will, to our ability to empathize with others.','',0,'oA==','37j9tmqk',1,0,'',1564,0,0),(17360,2018,3,1563,0,'129.97.77.204',1163093716,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You are totally right. I did not mean to suggest that animal consciousness would have to be totally the same as ours (even though I provided that option in the poll) because, as you said, animal consciousness would have evolved for a different purpose.\nThis also does not suggest, however, that animal consciousness is somehow inferior to ours. It is just [u:15qnuytp]different[/u:15qnuytp]. Different, but no less important in providing a rigorous basis for animal rights.\nI am convinced that some sort of animal consciousness exists.','',0,'AQ==','15qnuytp',1,0,'',1563,0,0),(17362,1840,3,1564,0,'129.97.77.159',1163093751,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It\'s also exceedingly frustrating when no one takes us seriously; as if we\'re making outrageous claims. Everything we are working for seems like an incredibly huge task. We are attacking a very influential and powerful part of our culture, and there is only a small group dedicated to the goal.','',0,'AQ==','1mr5evb1',1,0,'',1564,0,0),(17372,2018,3,1391,0,'129.67.17.208',1163098180,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It\'s difficult for me to post in this poll as I don\'t quite agree with any of the statements. It seems clear that animals do not have the same degree of thought that humans posess, but neither are they limited 100% to instinct. I am not sure that this leads me to vote for the middle option as it depends largely on what qualities we attribute to the word consciousness.','',0,'AQ==','2bgyunmu',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(17389,2018,3,2,0,'207.200.116.68',1163105254,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','sentience','Our website has about a hundred articles on animal sentience, many that use yardsticks such as analytical thinking, pain, emotion, and self-awareness, planning for the future, and more.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Morality/Speciesism/Speciesism-index.htm\">http://animalliberationfront.com/Philos ... -index.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nSome animals score higher using these measurements than do some humans, and, of course, vice versa.\n\nEven spiders have shown an ability to reason analytically beyond &quot;instinct&quot;. As a scientist once said, calling any action &quot;instinct&quot; is admitting our own ignorance. It simply means we don\'t have enough knowledge to understand the reason.','',0,'AQ==','txr8y3lp',1,0,'',2,0,0),(17406,1437,16,1563,0,'129.97.77.134',1163118254,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: shampoo','[quote=&quot;animalloversister&quot;:17m2j0e6]does anyone know a shampoo that isn\'t tested on animals?\none that is in new zealand[/quote:17m2j0e6]\n\nI don\'t know whether this shampoo is available in New Zealand but it is in Canada: &quot;European&quot; -&gt; it is eco-friendly too  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','17m2j0e6',1,0,'',1563,0,0),(17421,2018,3,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1163134082,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I answered\n\nYes-animals possess consciousness equal in all respects to human cosciousness\n\nIt is hard to measure emotions in most animals as we do not speak their language. I could list tons of reasons I think animals are concious but none are definitive as I am not a scientist or behaviorologist. I do find it interesting that my dog from NY who lost his eye and suffered severe burns in the 9/11 tragedy still reacts to things that are reminisent of what he suffered. Sirens even on tv scare him. He loves water but not hoses. He still gets shows signs of behavioral problems from it. He is very gentle but viscious in many ways. He hates police, firmen and ambulance workers all of which come to my home relatively frequently due to my moms handicap I need to lock him up in a room as he wants nothing more than to kill these people in uniforms. No this not general police bashing but logical from a dogs point of view as who did that dog see walking around that day? They recall and have memory that is enough for me.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1dsrbhjr',1,0,'',372,0,0),(17431,1437,16,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1163152520,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;freyacat&quot;:5w7tz5j1][quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:5w7tz5j1]As much as I can - I still live with my parents so they buy the household products.[/quote:5w7tz5j1]\n\nWhen I lived at home I used to put the cruelty stuff down the drains - my parents were never happy but they got the message <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:5w7tz5j1]\n\nIf I did that, I probably wouldn\'t be seen on here anymore XD','',0,'gA==','5w7tz5j1',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17535,2030,22,1575,0,'68.1.99.12',1163351986,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Is ALF a terrorist organization?','I\'m not saying I think it is or that it is not. I don\'t know. I just wanted to know how ALF members viewed themselves. I have been told that the United Stated Government views ALF as a domestic terrorist organization. Remember, according to the dictionary, you don\'t have to kill or capture a person to be a terrorist. According to the Amercian Heritage Dictonary,  terrorism is defined as &quot;The unlawful use or [b:1luidnmc]threatened[/b:1luidnmc] use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.&quot; So, do you think ALF is a terroroist organization.','',0,'QA==','1luidnmc',1,0,'',1575,0,0),(17536,2030,22,575,0,'217.43.129.77',1163352079,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No.','',0,'QA==','1neuvvkk',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17538,2030,22,643,0,'65.186.95.160',1163352385,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It depends on your defination of terrorism.   To most of the general public and the general public defination,  then yes it is.  I have no stats to back this up but I would be willing to bet that if you asked 100 people at random a wide majority would say yes.  If you asked 100 people on this board then a wide vast majority would say no.\n\nWhat kind of answer did you expect to hear.','',0,'QA==','3qccg6yk',1,0,'',643,0,0),(17541,2030,22,1575,0,'68.1.99.12',1163352740,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I guess I should have worded it differently. I apologize. Does the average ALF member believe that ALF use violence or threat of violence to accomplish their political agenda? I\'m not talking about disrubting hunts or holding civil protest or other actions afforded to them by the law. I mean that if ALF grows in America, am I going to have to worry about someone trying to burn my house down because I am a hunter.','',0,'QA==','3mn9essc',1,0,'',1575,0,0),(17547,2030,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1163353622,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','FAQs','Heehaw,\n    You have asked quite a few questions that are answered in our FAQs. Reading the FAQs is a requirement to be an active member of this forum. We don\'t expect you to agree with the FAQs, but we don\'t want to answer all the variations of the 96 questions over and over.\n   Thanks.','',0,'QA==','1j8ajs05',1,0,'',2,0,0),(17548,2030,22,1575,0,'68.1.99.12',1163354047,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ve clicked on the FAQ link, but all that it had was solutions to computer problems. Where is the FAQ link that displays ALF\'s views on issues.','',0,'QA==','1mhmxa6i',1,0,'',1575,0,0),(17551,2030,22,575,0,'217.43.129.77',1163355079,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There\'s a link in my sig.\n\nI was going to post the one related to terrorism, but wasn\'t sure it would answer your question.','',0,'QA==','3nzm0q0b',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17554,2030,22,1575,0,'68.1.99.12',1163356748,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks','',0,'QA==','gd16dyxe',1,0,'',1575,0,0),(17596,1796,31,1080,0,'84.69.207.1',1163390277,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re:','Apparently PGP isn\'t good for secure deletion of files, but the encryption of info is unbreakable.\n\nApparently a combination of Evidence Eliminator (EE) and Window Washer (WW) has a great effect on hard-drives. \n\nThe cops have had a number of my pc\'s and have also been nagging me for pgp key passwords so I know that PGP works :p I refuse just out of morals....','',0,'QA==','3ak0kfwx',1,0,'',1080,0,0),(17597,2036,5,1080,0,'84.69.207.1',1163390495,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Flannels Fur Shame - More info','Once again, the Flannels Group has pushed it\'s fur-free policy aside\nand begun stocking real fur again; including fox, coyote and rabbit.\n\nThey are well aware about the suffering involved, but do not care and\ncontinue putting profits over morals. Please take action against\nFlannels today and contact them.\n\nSign the boycott pledge &gt;&gt;&gt;\n <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/541272288?ltl=1163122411\">http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeacti ... 1163122411</a><!-- m -->\nBoycott Flannels site &gt;&gt;&gt;  <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.narn-online.com/flannels\">http://www.narn-online.com/flannels</a><!-- m -->\n\nSAMPLE LETTER:\n&quot;Dear Sir / Madam, the Flannels Group,\nI am disgusted that you are once again stocking real fur. The fur\ntrade is cruel, barbaric and unnecissary. Animals are skinned alive,\ngassed and electrocuted, all so their pelts can be put on clothes.\nI will not be shopping at Flannels again until all fur is removed and\nyour policy updated, and not flouted.\nYours Sincerely,&quot;\n\nThe Flannels Group,\nHead Office, Unit 6 Waterside,\nWharfside, Trafford Park,\nManchester, M17 1WD\nTel: 0161 931 2550\nFax: 0161 931 2559\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:info@flannelsgroup.com\">info@flannelsgroup.com</a><!-- e -->\n\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.birmingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.birmingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.cardiff@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.cardiff@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.leeds@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.leeds@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.manchester@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.manchester@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.nottingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.nottingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\nMANAGEMENT:\nNeil Howard Prosser (Managing Director)\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:neil.prosser@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">neil.prosser@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\nAsif Afzal issued the policy in 2005:  <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:asif.afzal@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">asif.afzal@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\nLeeds Manager:  <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:tim.lancaster@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">tim.lancaster@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\nManchester Manager:  <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:suzy.king@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">suzy.king@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\nStore Manager:  <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:claire.hoyne@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">claire.hoyne@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->\n\n=======================================\n\nALL EMAIL ADDRESSES:\n\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:neil.prosser@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">neil.prosser@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:asif.afzal@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">asif.afzal@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:tim.lancaster@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">tim.lancaster@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:suzy.king@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">suzy.king@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:claire.hoyne@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">claire.hoyne@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,  <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:info@flannelsgroup.com\">info@flannelsgroup.com</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.birmingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.birmingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.cardiff@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.cardiff@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.leeds@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.leeds@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.manchester@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.manchester@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->,\n <!-- e --><a href=\"mailto:flannels.nottingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk\">flannels.nottingham@theflannelsgroup.co.uk</a><!-- e -->','',0,'QA==','sjel2ork',1,0,'',1080,0,0),(17598,2030,22,1575,0,'68.1.99.12',1163394776,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Ok, I checked out the FAQ\'s and some of the website like the creed and such. I could not believe my eyes when I read about how ALF encourages the destruction of private property and breaking other laws. I am a bit confused in this philosophy because doesn\'t ALF want to change the laws of the land. How do you expect voters to change the law of the land if you don\'t practice obeying the law yourself. I was also shocked to see that not one person shown on the website was not dressed in BDU\'s (battle dress uniform)  and a ski mask. Wouldn\'t it be a little difficult to gain public trust if your &quot;mascot&quot; is dressed like he\'s about to attempt to assasinate someone?  No offense intended, just an outsiders first impression of the idealogy.','',0,'QA==','1vgqmubb',1,0,'',1575,0,0),(17600,2030,22,1233,0,'84.94.25.27',1163405379,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','i dont think the ALF is a terrorist group i dont think they  try to scare anyone...\ni didnt try to scare someone.','',0,'QA==','39evtc23',1,0,'',1233,0,0),(17617,2030,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1163423255,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','FAQs','[quote:3uhmezjm]Ok, I checked out the FAQ\'s and some of the website [/quote:3uhmezjm]\nFAQs 89-91 address your primary question.','',0,'gA==','3uhmezjm',1,0,'',2,0,0),(17676,2030,22,1153,0,'84.67.253.246',1163456113,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Some actions yes, some no.','',0,'gA==','122ot5gv',1,0,'',1153,0,0),(17677,484,12,1153,0,'84.67.253.246',1163456584,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Judging by some of the replys most of you aint got a clue. Police in the uk don\'t just arrest animal rights activists when they break the law. They do it whenever they can to try and stop us I know this first hand. Also people have succesfully sued the police for wrongful arrest. Lets get it straight the police are not unbiased they come down on the side of the animal abusers most of the time especially the hunts. Also bite back is not about egos its there to send out a message to the abusers that there are people( who I dont know by the way) out here prepared to put an end to their evil business.','',0,'gA==','2bc1osnm',1,0,'',1153,0,0),(17682,2030,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1163469431,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think you have too much time on your hands to debate about semantic details. Congrats on that though it is better than hunting. I applaud your use of the dictionary. When you are done reading that cover to cover try this web site for more semantics on terrorism I am not sure if it is good but if it keeps you from hunting I endorse it.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.web-and-flow.com/members/tmarch/freedom2/webquest.htm\">http://www.web-and-flow.com/members/tma ... bquest.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3ev7wspj',1,0,'',372,0,0),(17694,2042,22,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1163538448,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Acts of Parliment','What Acts of Parliment are there currently from our government to protect animals and do all these have loop holes in them?  Also do we have a voice in parliment?','',0,'gA==','39koc9tc',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(17695,2042,22,575,0,'217.43.133.125',1163538814,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don\'t know whether these are acts of parliament as I don\'t understand the whole act making thing, but I know there\'s the Animal Welfare Act (which is having some ammendments in 2007).\n\nHere\'s a list of all the acts that cover animals:\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.webtribe.net/~shg/Statutes.htm\">http://www.webtribe.net/~shg/Statutes.htm</a><!-- m -->\n\nI don\'t know much about loopholes or whether there\'s a voice for ar/aw in parliament, but the RSPCA and various other organisations try to act as a information centre for Parliament and help them create laws or something like that.','',0,'gA==','2wd7mrem',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17697,2042,22,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1163571198,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks for that hun x','',0,'gA==','llh48jft',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(17702,2042,22,575,0,'81.158.138.70',1163598650,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No problem.','',0,'gA==','iwb7ag2b',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17704,2042,22,1508,0,'86.1.185.238',1163598808,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Going to take me a while to get my head round this little lot again!','',0,'gA==','3ga1zrp0',1,0,'',1508,0,0),(17728,1840,3,1601,0,'66.103.167.30',1163644687,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I’m ‘Animal Rights’ all the way, no time for compromising that with ‘Animal Welfare’ policy.','',0,'gA==','2bx76g8y',1,0,'',1601,0,0),(17731,1840,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1163658709,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=blue:r10dc7mi]I don’t really eat meat; it doesn’t taste good to me. I know that it’s good to eat because of the protein but I hate the fact that animals are born specifically to be eaten. I think we need these animals, the cows, the chickens, to keep the world going; but do they have to be eaten? With all the technology we have today, is there no way to get our protein and other stuff animal meat provides in others ways besides these animals and pills?\nI used to intern at The Carnivore Preservation Trust and I had to pick up the dead chickens from the factory. Seeing those thousands of birds in cages barely bigger than a shoe box made me feel like a bad person. It made me think &quot;how come I am able to live like I live but all of these animals have no choice but to live a short, painful, and torturous life.&quot; \nI kind of tend to think that it is ok to eat animals, even though I don’t like it in any way. What if it’s just something that will never stop? It’s hard to digest or even comprehend but what if......\nTo me, the thing that affects me most is the lives that these defenseless animals are forces to live because of man kind. That’s what bothers me.[/color:r10dc7mi]\n <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'Ag==','r10dc7mi',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(17733,1840,3,575,0,'217.43.129.77',1163669644,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;kittycat&quot;:3tmbo6az][color=blue:3tmbo6az]I don’t really eat meat; it doesn’t taste good to me. I know that it’s good to eat because of the protein but I hate the fact that animals are born specifically to be eaten. I think we need these animals, the cows, the chickens, to keep the world going; but do they have to be eaten? With all the technology we have today, is there no way to get our protein and other stuff animal meat provides in others ways besides these animals and pills?\nI used to intern at The Carnivore Preservation Trust and I had to pick up the dead chickens from the factory. Seeing those thousands of birds in cages barely bigger than a shoe box made me feel like a bad person. It made me think &quot;how come I am able to live like I live but all of these animals have no choice but to live a short, painful, and torturous life.&quot; \nI kind of tend to think that it is ok to eat animals, even though I don’t like it in any way. What if it’s just something that will never stop? It’s hard to digest or even comprehend but what if......\nTo me, the thing that affects me most is the lives that these defenseless animals are forces to live because of man kind. That’s what bothers me.[/color:3tmbo6az]\n <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->[/quote:3tmbo6az]\n\nThere are plenty sources of protein without having to eat [b:3tmbo6az]any[/b:3tmbo6az] animal products. Meat isn\'t a necessary part of the human diet. And is often related to many diseases.\n\nPulses (peas, beans, lentils, soya products), grains (wheat, oats, rice, barley, buckwheat, millet, pasta, bread), nuts (brazils, hazels, almonds, cashews) and seeds (sunflower, pumpkin, sesame) are some of the things that provide protein.\n\nIn fact, all the nutrients the average human needs can be found in non animal sources. If protein and such were needed solely from animal sources, vegans, fruitarians, vegetarians etc wouldn\'t exist!\n\nIt\'s good that you get to see the truth behind where meat comes from and that you\'re connecting it with pain and suffering of other beings. It shows an understanding of other life forms and that they shouldn\'t deserve to be treated the way they are treated.','',0,'wg==','3tmbo6az',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17812,2054,6,1611,0,'67.72.98.91',1163797994,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','what dairy alternatives taste most like cows milk?','does anyone know if there is any dairy alternatives that taste just like cows milk?','',0,'wg==','26endnic',1,0,'',1611,0,0),(17815,2054,6,575,0,'81.158.138.90',1163798533,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Um, I don\'t know if it tastes exactly like cows milk, but rice milk? I\'m not sure...I\'ve never done a taste comparison so I can\'t really tell.','',0,'wg==','14iief03',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17817,2054,6,1611,0,'67.72.98.91',1163800146,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','thanks, you are probably right. I just did not know if maybe there is something closer to the milk taste out there, but probably not','',0,'wg==','16pgyac9',1,0,'',1611,0,0),(17848,2057,3,1468,0,'85.196.13.48',1163868602,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','meat is not murder','my freinds \nmuch of u think that meat is a murder so for u if i eat meat and i do so i am a killer ok\nbut like that all dogs, cats, tigers, lions .........etc are killers and shull be punished and that is not logical\nwhy animals have the right to eat animals and we do not have right to eat animals we are also kind of animals why they sappose to have rights more than us','',0,'wg==','2pes2wfp',1,0,'',1468,0,0),(17858,2057,3,575,0,'81.152.145.185',1163882999,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Animals who eat meat in the wild do so because they need to and it is natural for them to hunt down their prey and consume the [b:4yd3o6e7]raw[/b:4yd3o6e7] flesh of their prey. Also, they do not have the ability to make choice about what they eat, whereas we do.\n\nWe do not need to eat meat, nor do we hunt it down naturally, also, we have the choice to decide what we eat, and we also can understand suffering that is caused by consuming meat. The animals cannot. Aswell as all this, the prey animals in the wild have a fair chance of survival with regards to their predators. The animals humans eat are bred to be murdered, and have no chance of escape from their inevitable fate.\n\nAnd might I add, with most predators, the death they give to their prey is near to instant. Example: The lion will bite the prey on the jugular (i think that\'s the name for that part of the neck), and some animals will paralyze their prey...and so on.\n\nIn closing, meat is nothing more than something a human eats because it tastes good when served up [b:4yd3o6e7]cooked[/b:4yd3o6e7] and [b:4yd3o6e7]processed[/b:4yd3o6e7]. To kill something for enjoyment, is murder. Just as it is murder for the human to kill the human for enjoyment.','',0,'QA==','4yd3o6e7',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17866,2057,3,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1163888721,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','What a stupid thing to post, it wasn\'t even constructive it seemed more like an attack \'anarchist\'. You seem concerned about liberty, do you not know the phrase \'Human Freedom, Animal Rights, One Struggle, One Fight\' ?\nI don\'t think the issue of eating meat and is it murder needs much more explanation but you aren\'t a killer, you\'re a weak, pathetic person that pays someone else to beat a defenceless animal for you. It doesn\'t get much lower..','',0,'QA==','zt4jjc4l',1,1163951356,'',674,1,0),(17897,2057,3,1538,0,'80.212.200.108',1163936459,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;AutomaticMan&quot;:2py6e35h]I don\'t think the issue of eating meat and is it murder needs much more explanation but [b:2py6e35h]you aren\'t a killer, [/b:2py6e35h]you\'re a weak, pathetic person [b:2py6e35h]that pays someone else to beat a defenceless animal [/b:2py6e35h]for you. It doesn\'t get much lower..[/quote:2py6e35h]\n\nAgreed.','',0,'wA==','2py6e35h',1,0,'',1538,0,0),(17941,2057,3,1123,0,'84.30.73.160',1163968678,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','eating meat is natural,\nbut locking up billions of animals just for their flesh in cages so small that they even can\'t turn around,,,, that\'s not natural....\n\nso yes, meat is murder  <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'wA==','2t6jipgn',1,0,'',1123,0,0),(17943,2057,3,575,0,'81.152.150.11',1163969182,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;raymond&quot;:3g76suza]eating meat is natural,\nbut locking up billions of animals just for their flesh in cages so small that they even can\'t turn around,,,, that\'s not natural....\n\nso yes, meat is murder  <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->[/quote:3g76suza]\n\nWell, I wouldn\'t call eating it when it\'s not even in it\'s natural state, natural...I mean, how many wild animals do you see starting a fire to roast up their hunk of prey flesh with added chemicals that they [i:3g76suza]cut[/i:3g76suza] with a factory made carving knife...','',0,'oA==','3g76suza',1,0,'',575,0,0),(17946,2057,3,1123,0,'84.30.73.160',1163971756,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:3t3fm1xz][quote=&quot;raymond&quot;:3t3fm1xz]eating meat is natural,\nbut locking up billions of animals just for their flesh in cages so small that they even can\'t turn around,,,, that\'s not natural....\n\nso yes, meat is murder  <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->[/quote:3t3fm1xz]\n\nWell, I wouldn\'t call eating it when it\'s not even in it\'s natural state, natural...I mean, how many wild animals do you see starting a fire to roast up their hunk of prey flesh with added chemicals that they [i:3t3fm1xz]cut[/i:3t3fm1xz] with a factory made carving knife...[/quote:3t3fm1xz]\n\n <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->   you\'re right  <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: -->','',0,'oA==','3t3fm1xz',1,0,'',1123,0,0),(17955,457,12,1627,0,'86.129.107.12',1163990672,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You\'re not the only one to have formulated a point-by point reply - here\'s mine!\n\n[b:tfruir0g]Eating in a meat-free restaurant the other day made me realise why I hate vegetarians. The food, unlike the tasteless, bland rubbish often served up in such places, was delicious. Unusually for meatless cuisine, it had flavour and texture, and had even been seasoned. What was unpalatable were the customers and waiting staff, all of whom seemed to believe that what they were eating made them superior. They all looked smug and self-satisfied. It brought it home to me that most vegetarians - and I am largely excluding those who eschew meat for religious and cultural reasons - give themselves a bad name. They are better than you, don\'t you know? The atmosphere in the restaurant was one of pompous aloofness. I left with indigestion. [/b:tfruir0g]\n\nLet me correct you.  Being relaxed when you eat aids proper digestion.  Your fellow diners were “self-satisfiedâ€','',0,'QA==','tfruir0g',1,0,'',1627,0,0),(18002,1840,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1164058326,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=darkblue:3tm2wtvt][u:3tm2wtvt][i:3tm2wtvt][b:3tm2wtvt]CHENLI...[/b:3tm2wtvt][/i:3tm2wtvt][/u:3tm2wtvt] Yeah I know that there are other sources of protein but meat is a good source of it you have to admit. I hope it doesnt seem like I am advocating eating meat and all that. I just think I am more passionant about the living conditions these animals live in. I guess I am not so passionant about eating meat because it seems like such a huge thing to try and get people to follow. I agree with not eating meat but I just dont think it is going to pick up like we hope it will. There is only so much we can do. And yes every little bit helps. But it seems that so many people are set in their ways. Its just going to take a long time to get things to where we want them. It is going to take many generations before the majority of the population does not eat meat. \nI think maybe we should focus our efforts on the factories that supply the meat. Maybe if we could change the conditions for the animals it would set off a chain reaction eventually getting to the population. I think the factories would be a better place to start because it is a smaller amount of people to deal with. Maybe in doing that, the amount of animals that are killed will decrease. We need to start at the source of the problem.[/color:3tm2wtvt]','',0,'Yw==','3tm2wtvt',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18003,1840,3,575,0,'81.158.138.181',1164059539,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;kittycat&quot;:2tk9po5t][color=darkblue:2tk9po5t][u:2tk9po5t][i:2tk9po5t][b:2tk9po5t]CHENLI...[/b:2tk9po5t][/i:2tk9po5t][/u:2tk9po5t] Yeah I know that there are other sources of protein but meat is a good source of it you have to admit. I hope it doesnt seem like I am advocating eating meat and all that. I just think I am more passionant about the living conditions these animals live in. I guess I am not so passionant about eating meat because it seems like such a huge thing to try and get people to follow. I agree with not eating meat but I just dont think it is going to pick up like we hope it will. There is only so much we can do. And yes every little bit helps. But it seems that so many people are set in their ways. Its just going to take a long time to get things to where we want them. It is going to take many generations before the majority of the population does not eat meat. \nI think maybe we should focus our efforts on the factories that supply the meat. Maybe if we could change the conditions for the animals it would set off a chain reaction eventually getting to the population. I think the factories would be a better place to start because it is a smaller amount of people to deal with. Maybe in doing that, the amount of animals that are killed will decrease. We need to start at the source of the problem.[/color:2tk9po5t][/quote:2tk9po5t]\n\nA &quot;good source&quot; that we don\'t need to eat. The world may never stop eating meat, but it doesn\'t mean those who see that meat-eating is wrong should continue to eat it for the sake of a hope that may never be reality. That\'s just like the meat-eater saying &quot;my not eating meat will change nothing, so I\'ll continue eating it&quot;...and so on.\n\nAnd if we totally sort out AW, then people will still think it\'s ok to use animals for human gain, whether it be pleasure or otherwise. And thus animal exploitation and torture and death will continue...\n\nThis has been said before, and I\'ll say it again...We want empty cages, not bigger cages.','',0,'4w==','2tk9po5t',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18016,2075,19,484,0,'64.12.116.198',1164069574,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Where did your pets come from ?','Just wondering on here where your pets came from....Will list some of mine that I now have, I do rescue so many more pass on here....\n\nAnnie, chained up for 7 years without a dog house, verified by a neighbor who took her on the coldest night of the year last year, Heartworm pos, worms,fleas, ticks, thin, scared of people no emotions....if she got away from you she would run as if scared to be chained up again....now living life at the house, too scared to be adopted however loves us to death, loves other dogs. Was told she was the duaghters dog but then a divorce happened and the man just kept her chained 2 neighbors threw food over the fence to her....one just had the courage to take her.\n\nNeptune, found dragging a logging chain down the busy highway, with a huge thick collar, heartworm pos, uneutered and dog aggressive, worms, fleas, ticks etc...my roommate stopped his truck called the dog and he jumped in and my roommate swears the dog looked at him and told him to drive...the vet said he appears to have been in fight training, was treated and neutered and now lives with us, after a few aggressive events, the neutering and training fixed that and we are the most passive dog.\n\nPuppy, well that is what he knows, was at a petstore for 7.5 months, was deemed unfit for sale as he has genetic defects and was to be sent back to his breeder to use as breeding stock or destroyed....I paid for his sx in one knee and neutered him and he is learning how to act outside of a cage...he will hopefully get a home soon, he is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel\n\nSped, left in a crack house that was busted for over a week as a puppy, drank toilet water until the landlord found him, temperment issues with men....now really old about 14 so he has been in luxury most of his life, just a really hard start...rescued at about 6 months old.\n\nNicky, Found as a stray walking down the road, no one reported him missing or answered adds for him.\n\nAvery given to me as a puppy...never really had a bad day in his life, spoiled all of it, doesn\'t know what it means to not have it all....has a chair that is only his, no humans are too sit in it, goes everywhere with me and is well known in public , very well behaved but that is because he enjoys being with me....','',0,'4w==','2nsjuqdr',1,0,'',484,0,0),(18020,2075,19,575,0,'81.158.138.181',1164070257,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My companion animals have all been rescues in one sense of another.\n\nBarney, collie-x-german shepherd came from Wood Green Animal Shelter in God Manchester when I was about 6, he had been mistreated by his previous carers. He was put down when I was 15 due him having a heart attack, he also had health problems such as athritis and cancer (I think it was begnign though). He was like a little brother to me, and he\'ll always be in my heart.\n\nCasper (who is now, at the cats protection league - she may have found a new home though) came to us from someone living down the road, who doesn\'t know how to care for animals properly and basically treats them like property that is the latest thing to have, and would not supply basic vet care such as flea treatment and worm treatment, let alone any vaccines. She never recieved attention either, and I have a feeling she wasn\'t be fed enough too. None were neutered or spayed, so when Casper had kittens due to being impregnated by the strays the &quot;owner&quot; would just sell the kittens for money - again, no veterinary care at all and no proper care in general. She came to us of her own free will as we gave her the love and attention she deserved. Same goes for her son, Bob. And another cat that used to live in the same house as them, Bud. Both Bob and Bud are still with us.\n\nBungle, who was originally a stray and is also the father of Bud (a lot of inbreeding has occured around this area due to the lady down the road not neutering or spaying), eventually warmed up to us as we always leave food outside for strays, and allow them to come in (mind, Bungle is the only stray to have come in), and now he\'s like part of the family. Both him and Bud used to be very shy, but they are alright around us now and love the TLC we give them.','',0,'4w==','2flwg6lq',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18030,1840,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1164079680,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=darkblue:2f89ziv0][u:2f89ziv0][i:2f89ziv0][b:2f89ziv0]CHENLI...[/b:2f89ziv0][/i:2f89ziv0][/u:2f89ziv0] Well, that’s pretty much what I was trying to say. That meat is a source of protein that we don’t need but is there. And if someone does not want to eat meat, then they shouldn’t eat it. If someone does, then so be it.\n\nWhat if the only way to get people to understand how terrible the conditions are for these animals is to put them through it? I think if animals could talk than humans would feel a little more sympathy. I hate it when people act like animals don’t have feelings or whatever. And what makes it so frustrating is how hard it is to explain these things, especially when the person is stubborn and refuses to even try and understand. [/color:2f89ziv0]','',0,'Yw==','2f89ziv0',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18040,538,22,1633,0,'4.159.107.94',1164101275,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Well I must say I eat meat everyday and I neither cheat nor steal. Yes, I do eat many McD\'s $1 double cheeseburgars, but its nice to eat and still have enough money to buy some shampoo or a little heat for the winter. I don\'t know about others situation, but in my area the only vegytarian stores are miles across the river and the prices arn\'t very resonalbe.\n\nI am most certainly a killer. In my younger days we raised our own food. If you wanted to eat you picked the animal, killed, cleaned, cooked it, and eat it. Thats what animals do. When they are hungry they eat another animal. However that is not the same thing as a murderer. To take my gun and go shoot a deer and then just walk away, that would be murder. To strangle my dog becaused he scratched me while we were playing, that would be murder. To kill and animal or buy some meat to feed my family.. while it might arguably make me a component in the death of a creature and thereby a killer, it does not make me a murderer. It is just the act of survival and is as valid a reason for a human animal to kill as it is for any other.\n\nI am against the cruelties of factory farming and all crueltiy to animals, but if your hungry your going to eat what you can get your hands on, be it animal or human. To call people consiousless because they choose their own life over another creatures is not right.\n\nAs for the thread topic of diary being somehow cruel to animals, I don\'t see what the problem is, dairy cows arn\'t killed for their meat, they aren\'t ever killed. They get a life time of food, protected area to roam, and a sweet sheltered life until they grow old and die. The majority of their offspring arn\'t removed from them, excempt for bulls which are seperated at the point they would leave their mother anyway. Cows would be way worse off in the wild and are treated like kings on every dairy farm I\'ve ever been to.','',0,'Yw==','18pe6mac',1,0,'',1633,0,0),(18045,538,22,575,0,'81.152.218.230',1164107477,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Jeckel&quot;:2e7q4lmz]Well I must say I eat meat everyday and I neither cheat nor steal. Yes, I do eat many McD\'s $1 double cheeseburgars, but its nice to eat and still have enough money to buy some shampoo or a little heat for the winter. I don\'t know about others situation, but in my area the only vegytarian stores are miles across the river and the prices arn\'t very resonalbe.\n\nI am most certainly a killer. In my younger days we raised our own food. If you wanted to eat you picked the animal, killed, cleaned, cooked it, and eat it. Thats what animals do. When they are hungry they eat another animal. However that is not the same thing as a murderer. To take my gun and go shoot a deer and then just walk away, that would be murder. To strangle my dog becaused he scratched me while we were playing, that would be murder. To kill and animal or buy some meat to feed my family.. while it might arguably make me a component in the death of a creature and thereby a killer, it does not make me a murderer. It is just the act of survival and is as valid a reason for a human animal to kill as it is for any other.\n\nI am against the cruelties of factory farming and all crueltiy to animals, but if your hungry your going to eat what you can get your hands on, be it animal or human. To call people consiousless because they choose their own life over another creatures is not right.\n\nAs for the thread topic of diary being somehow cruel to animals, I don\'t see what the problem is, dairy cows arn\'t killed for their meat, they aren\'t ever killed. They get a life time of food, protected area to roam, and a sweet sheltered life until they grow old and die. The majority of their offspring arn\'t removed from them, excempt for bulls which are seperated at the point they would leave their mother anyway. Cows would be way worse off in the wild and are treated like kings on every dairy farm I\'ve ever been to.[/quote:2e7q4lmz]\n\nAnimals do not kill for selfish reasons. They kill because they need to survive, and they certainly don\'t process any of the muscle that they tear with their teeth and claws from the fresh carcass that they killed with their own natural weaponry on their body, not a gun or snare or trap. You don\'t need to eat any animal product in order to survive or allow your family to survive. You only eat said animal products because they taste nice to you. That is a selfish reason...greed and taste are selfish reasons to take a life.\n\nAnd it is blatent you are lying when you say you don\'t like factory farming, it is more the point you don\'t actually care, as you say, as you go to mcdonalds and will gladly buy factory farmed meat and other products elsewhere.\n\nAlso, you are vastly mistaken if you think dairy cows live a wonderful long life. Dairy cows are constantly impregnated to continously produce milk. Their baby is taken away within a day to a few hours of birth so that the humans can take the milk that was originally intended for the calf. If the calves born are male, they will either be killed on the farm, or sold to veal companies. Veal is where a male calve is tied around the neck by a rope in a crate and is fed on a iron-deficient diet as well as other nutrient deficiencies in order to keep the animal aenemic and create a certain type of muscle consisty upon the animal. The calves cannot permit any natural behaviours and are confined to this box until slaughter of which is far less than a year old when they go to slaughter.\n\nFemales calves will replace the old dairy herd once old enough. Dairy cows, once they are not producing a high enough milk yield to satisfy human greed, are sent to slaughter for human consumption.\n\nFor more info on dairy: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html\">http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html</a><!-- m --> and <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/cows/dairy_cow.php\">http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animal ... ry_cow.php</a><!-- m -->\n\nAnd your local supermarket will stock vegetarian food. The majority of places do in western civilisation.','',0,'gA==','2e7q4lmz',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18048,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.121',1164109900,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:3jv9bw8f]Animals do not kill for selfish reasons. They kill because they need to survive, and they certainly don\'t process any of the muscle that they tear with their teeth and claws from the fresh carcass that they killed with their own natural weaponry on their body, not a gun or snare or trap. You don\'t need to eat any animal product in order to survive or allow your family to survive. You only eat said animal products because they taste nice to you. That is a selfish reason...greed and taste are selfish reasons to take a life.[/quote:3jv9bw8f]\nYou can\'t say this about everyone who eats meat. There are plenty of places in the world where the type of plants that humans can gain proper nutrition from do not grow in abundance. Therefore people need to eat meat as only certain animals can make protein from the plants which do grow there. If those people are to eat only plants then you are either going to tell them &quot;Sorry, you can\'t live in the place where your ancestors have lived for hundreds of years, you have to pack up and migrate.&quot; Or you have to damage the environment by shipping plants all over the world to places where there isn\'t enough edible vegetation but people could live well by eating local animals.\n\nP.S. I still don\'t see how processing the animal once it is dead or killing it using tools makes any difference to the ethics of it.','',0,'gA==','3jv9bw8f',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18053,538,22,2,0,'70.38.73.13',1164116703,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','necessity of meat','The AR philosophy does not deny that killing is morally acceptable when survival is at stake. It\'s usually not necessary to qualify this every time, since it is qualified in the FAQs, which everyone has read.\n\nStill, the generalization that meat is not necessary can probably be safely made to anyone using the Internet.','',0,'gA==','1xy3hzrn',1,0,'',2,0,0),(18057,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.121',1164123967,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It\'s still a very interesting question: how far is transportation of non-animal sources food allowed before it becomes more ethical to eat local meat? It would be a very pertinent question for the Green Party here in the UK which has policies on animals and the environment with a strong anti transport policy (as far as I can tell - I have only skimmed the manifesto; a better studied person may be able to correct me)','',0,'gA==','14i1c92v',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18076,1362,16,1627,0,'86.129.107.12',1164143819,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Can anyone here recommend a vegan (non-animal tested, of course!) [b:1u7sf6ez]whitening [/b:1u7sf6ez]toothpaste that is available in the UK?\n\nEven though I don\'t drink alcohol, tea, coffee or smoke (or eat sweets, but that\'s slightly different) - my teeth have been yellowing since I was about 10 - and as such my dentitst insists I use a whitening toothpaste - I truly detest it because she\'s insisting on Macleans, which is made by the scum at GSK - so please, I\'m desperate to give up this rubbish and stop giving the scum my money!','',0,'QA==','1u7sf6ez',1,0,'',1627,0,0),(18088,538,22,1081,0,'221.113.109.40',1164172577,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Addict&quot;:noi07n1j]It\'s still a very interesting question: how far is transportation of non-animal sources food allowed before it becomes more ethical to eat local meat? It would be a very pertinent question for the Green Party here in the UK which has policies on animals and the environment with a strong anti transport policy (as far as I can tell - I have only skimmed the manifesto; a better studied person may be able to correct me)[/quote:noi07n1j]\n\nFrom outer space? Sorry, I don\'t get the question ... as far as I know, fruits and vegetables don\'t suffer during transportation.','',0,'gA==','noi07n1j',1,0,'',1081,0,0),(18092,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.142',1164188443,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Haha, sorry, got a funny mental image from that! What I meant is that transporting goods damages the environment - not the vegetables!','',0,'gA==','2u95lba9',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18093,1282,33,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1164194203,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Happy Vegan Thanksgiving yall. Becarfull if anybody is traveling.I heard theres more folks on the road and trying in get in planes then ever.','',0,'gA==','16kpfrky',1,0,'',454,0,0),(18094,538,22,1081,0,'138.243.129.7',1164194905,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Yes, I kind of thought that was what you meant. But you have to admit the analogy was rather insensitive, don\'t you? From an abolitionist perspective, I don\'t see how it could be considered more wrong to eat [b:268mmx12]any [/b:268mmx12]plant-derived food compared with [b:268mmx12]any [/b:268mmx12]animal-derived food. \n\nObviously, I can only speak for myself, though.','',0,'QA==','268mmx12',1,0,'',1081,0,0),(18101,2087,6,1611,0,'67.72.98.88',1164202133,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','I HATE Thanksgiving!!','I just HATE Thanksgiving!!!!!    I am so embarrassed to be an American and a human being on Thanksgiving. \n\nI hope that Thanksgiving will be be a forgotten holiday before I die. My heart aches for all the innocent Turkeys that have to live a life of torture and death just to satisfy a bunch of slobs disgusting appetite! \n\nIt is times like these that I am embarrased to be a part of this world. \n\nI am just so happy that I am not alone in my feelings toward animals and how they are treated. I don\'t understand how so many ignorant people can not see that one day what is happening to the animals will be looked at with utter horror just as we look back at slavery.\n\nI hope I am not bringing anyone down with this message. \n\nI guess I just had to express to anyone who would be interested, my utter disdain for this holiday that seems to only be about eating! and centers around a dead bird!\n\nI also find it highly offensive when people refer to it as turkey day.\n\nAny thoughts???','',0,'QA==','1tbvdw5w',1,0,'',1611,0,0),(18102,1282,33,1015,0,'64.12.116.65',1164206038,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','AWE Thanks Kriter......and the same to you &amp; everybody.\n   No traveling for me....I\'m taking the day off and spending it with my\nfurry friends. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'QA==','2m22j4so',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(18104,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.190',1164206307,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Well if you damage the environment sufficiently you will harm more animals in the long run than these people are capable of eating.','',0,'QA==','2euasj2a',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18108,1848,15,1513,0,'81.155.27.79',1164211681,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yes\nDue to the close tie\'s betwen spiritualists, new agers and pagans, I have experienced them all, and they are all very animal friendly. Also, Southern Indian Hinduism is animal friendly, (ie they are strict vegetarians) but I have yet to meet a South Indian Hindu who is not scared by most animals.','',0,'QA==','83xsb315',1,0,'',1513,0,0),(18112,2087,6,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164213013,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I hate christmas because a) it\'s so commercial and materialistic and b) the plight of the animals.\nI wanted to go to a vegan restaurant for christmas dinner instead of going on a \'family meal\' to some carvery. I may still do that, that\'s one way round it I guess.','',0,'QA==','3ldcxac1',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18129,1840,3,1587,0,'65.93.157.201',1164231602,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I chose &quot;I Endorse ‘Animal Welfare’ with animals rights in mind.&quot; cause I\'m still learning about Animal Rights, so I can\'t say I completely agree with it yet.','',0,'QA==','3g5rzgws',1,0,'',1587,0,0),(18131,2087,6,1015,0,'205.188.116.138',1164232466,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: I HATE Thanksgiving!!','[quote=&quot;kfccruelty&quot;:1t1dt0bn]I just HATE Thanksgiving!!!!!    I am so embarrassed to be an American and a human being on Thanksgiving. \n\nI hope that Thanksgiving will be be a forgotten holiday before I die. My heart aches for all the innocent Turkeys that have to live a life of torture and death just to satisfy a bunch of slobs disgusting appetite! \n\nIt is times like these that I am embarrased to be a part of this world. \n\nI am just so happy that I am not alone in my feelings toward animals and how they are treated. I don\'t understand how so many ignorant people can not see that one day what is happening to the animals will be looked at with utter horror just as we look back at slavery.\n\nI hope I am not bringing anyone down with this message. \n\nI guess I just had to express to anyone who would be interested, my utter disdain for this holiday that seems to only be about eating! and centers around a dead bird!\n\nI also find it highly offensive when people refer to it as turkey day.\n\nAny thoughts???[/quote:1t1dt0bn]\n\n    None that are any different from yours. I feel like I\'m living in very primitive times. In the US....and in NYC...and yet people are still eating\nthe insides of dead animals......I over heard them in the supermarket\ntalking about it......and I looked at their faces....they didn\'t look like retarded monsters.....and yet, how can they not know? Well...thanks\nto PETA2 this generation of teens DO KNOW the facts so I\'m hopeful that\nwhen this present generation of teens become adults, we\'ll see some\npositive changes......but yeah.....I really hate thanksgiving.....just like\nyou','',0,'gA==','1t1dt0bn',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(18134,2087,6,1611,0,'67.72.98.83',1164234998,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','thankyou both for replying. I am so glad to know that I am not alone in my feelings. \nI live in South Carolina where the words animal rights is like a four letter word. \nI am so glad, Gingerlks, that the younger generation is getting the message, leading to a more humane world in the future. \nI don\'t know if I will live to see the day when this is all a nightmare of the past, but I am hopeful that I will at least live to see the day that animal rights activists will no longer be looked at as a bunch of crazy, pot smoking hippies, but in the same way that we now view the abolitionists of the human slave era.\nI guess, and in part thanks to computers, it all may start to happen sooner than we realize, because things are starting to change already.\n\nThanks again to both for your input and please have a great turkey free Thanksgiving.','',0,'gA==','3jglkwec',1,0,'',1611,0,0),(18140,484,12,1643,0,'152.121.17.40',1164252494,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Everyone is getting arrested','Gosh, it kinda makes me think too that we should be careful what we say in this forum!  You never know who could be prowling around and observing militant behaviors.  The feds  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> could be reading our posts and tapping our phones!','',0,'gA==','2r5699zg',1,0,'',1643,0,0),(18144,484,12,1391,0,'129.67.17.103',1164271713,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I\'ve seen video footage of SPEAK protesters getting arrested &quot;for no reason.&quot; It\'s shocking how you can get arrested these days just for trying to push a police officer out the way!\n\nThe best part of the video was where a big gang of protesters rushed the police line to try and get closer to the lab and then when they get stopped and pushed back by the police one of them is shouting &quot;don\'t touch me!&quot; as if the police just came over and grabbed him.','',0,'gA==','1rgpgjsg',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18150,484,12,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1164279129,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: Everyone is getting arrested','[quote=&quot;cperl&quot;:1m6e8h4b]Gosh, it kinda makes me think too that we should be careful what we say in this forum!  You never know who could be prowling around and observing militant behaviors.  The feds  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> could be reading our posts and tapping our phones![/quote:1m6e8h4b]\n\nThat\'s why it\'s advised never to give personal information out on here (mind it applies to the majority of the net, but very important here, especially your location).\n\nAnd to be very discrete in talking about actions you have done yourself that may be illegal.\n\nThe government looks at art sites owned by vegans, so they\'d definately look at this site.','',0,'gA==','1m6e8h4b',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18151,2087,6,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1164279300,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I was about to say that it\'s good we don\'t have such a thing in the UK, but I heard on the radio this morning a competition to win a thanksgiving night out...UK is slowly becoming the new America ¬_¬','',0,'gA==','3ltoilp0',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18154,2087,6,1123,0,'80.127.137.90',1164286874,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','luckily there isn\'t thanksgiving  in the netherlands  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->  <!-- s:pray: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_pray.gif\" alt=\":pray:\" title=\"pray\" /><!-- s:pray: -->  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','gwkvch3o',1,0,'',1123,0,0),(18160,2087,6,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164298950,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The UK is becoming America. Shopping \'Malls\', \'stores\' etc.\n\nWe\'re losing our words for theirs!','',0,'gA==','3nlfy1bj',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18199,1583,13,977,0,'81.159.2.61',1164369142,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Are CAFE PRESS safe to order from?\nI live in the UK and been trying to buy some t-shirts from them, I got a reply saying they need the name of my bank here in the UK.\nIs this normal practise and is it safe?\nI really want some t-shirts on the peta/cafe press website , inc the one you showed about hunters.\nHelp please, I really like the tops and want them.lol.\nthx','',0,'gA==','n2smgomd',1,0,'',977,0,0),(18207,1583,13,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164386825,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My folks ordered my school bag of their for me. It worked out fine and came within a week! I\'m not sure exactly what they did though..','',0,'gA==','27v07t72',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18208,1583,13,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1164392802,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;TIME&quot;:2sakfwjq]Are CAFE PRESS safe to order from?\nI live in the UK and been trying to buy some t-shirts from them, I got a reply saying they need the name of my bank here in the UK.\nIs this normal practise and is it safe?\nI really want some t-shirts on the peta/cafe press website , inc the one you showed about hunters.\nHelp please, I really like the tops and want them.lol.\nthx[/quote:2sakfwjq]\n\n   I\'m not exactly sure what you mean by &quot;reply&quot; but I just heard on TV,\nthe latest identy scam is emails saying .......for example &quot;the order you just placed wirh &quot;Amazon&quot; did not go through...please ckick here to verify\nyour information&quot; \n   but of course it\'s not really from amazon or whatever company they\ninsert in the email.  \n\n    Me, I order everything online.....one good safe way I think is to use Pay Pal.....but again, just don\'t fall for any of the phony pay pal email scams.','',0,'gA==','2sakfwjq',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(18209,1583,13,1165,0,'216.244.35.250',1164392962,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;TIME&quot;:1uo09j9x]Are CAFE PRESS safe to order from?\nI live in the UK and been trying to buy some t-shirts from them, I got a reply saying they need the name of my bank here in the UK.\nIs this normal practise and is it safe?[/quote:1uo09j9x]\nCafePress is very reputable and safe to order from.  They\'re a VERY well-known company in the US and have won numerous awards.  If they\'re asking for your bank\'s name, it\'s because they\'re being cautious about identity theft, stolen credit card numbers, etc.  I sell a lot of merchandise to people in the UK (and other countries), and one thing I always notice is that the status of their sales will show up as &quot;pending verification&quot; in my sales reports, and they\'ll stay that way until CafePress makes sure their information is legitimate.  This is a GOOD thing for you as a consumer! <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','1uo09j9x',1,0,'',1165,0,0),(18210,1583,13,977,0,'81.159.3.48',1164397904,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','thats great, thanks for putting my mind at rest. I can go ahead now and order my tops, been trying since Sept to get them tooo lol.\nThanks <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','21mbj66u',1,0,'',977,0,0),(18330,2114,13,977,0,'81.159.1.53',1164625452,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Views sought over use of snares in Scotland','WARNING , LINK BLEOW HAS A NASTY PHOTO\n\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6186028.stm\">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6186028.stm</a><!-- m -->\n\nNew proposals to tighten current laws on the use of snares in Scotland are going out for consultation. \nThere are concerns some devices, which are currently permitted, can cause unnecessary suffering to wild animals if misused. \n\nViews are being sought on whether there should be an outright ban or if new measures making it easier to trace snare owners go far enough. \n\nThe closing date for the consultation is 28 February. \n\nDeputy Environment Minister Rhona Brankin said: &quot;I am committed to protecting Scotland\'s rich and diverse wildlife and ensuring that our wild animals are treated humanely. \n\n  It is to our shame that Scotland remains one of a small minority of countries within the EU that still allow these barbaric devices to be used \n\nRoss Minett\nAdvocates for Animals \n\n&quot;The use of snares to trap wild animals is an emotive subject and I know a lot of people feel very strongly about how it should be regulated. \n\n&quot;This consultation gives them an opportunity to help shape modern laws to help deal with modern land management issues. \n\n&quot;I encourage everyone with an interest in Scotland\'s valuable natural heritage to make their views heard over the next 12 weeks.&quot; \n\nRoss Minett, director of Edinburgh-based Advocates for Animals, told the BBC Scotland news website: &quot;All snares are unnecessary, indiscriminate and can cause terrible suffering. \n\n&quot;Advocates for Animals will continue to campaign for a complete ban on the manufacture, possession, sale and use of snares in Scotland. \n\n&quot;It is to our shame that Scotland remains one of a small minority of countries within the EU that still allow these barbaric devices to be used. \n\n&quot;If the Scottish Executive really wants to help stop suffering caused to wild animals then it will introduce a complete ban on all snares in Scotland at the earliest opportunity.&quot;','',0,'gA==','3a58k022',1,0,'',977,0,0),(18349,2119,17,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1164651193,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Save wolves','There is a petition to save wolves at [url:3tbhbrbi]http&#58;//www&#46;savewolves&#46;org[/url:3tbhbrbi]','',0,'EA==','3tbhbrbi',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18357,2114,13,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164658405,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','What a bloody stupid caption with that image. Now all that suffering the Fox is going through is perfectly fine and necerssary...  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: -->','',0,'EA==','39r1rls4',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18413,2126,32,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164774659,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Poor','What I am going to discuss is by far not the worst ill of the world just one of the many screwy things in America.\n\nThanksgiving recntly passed as everyone here knows. Everyone sees those lovely promotional advertisements on the tele showing gift baskets brimming with foods of every kind supposedly delivered by the states and organizations to poor people. BULLSHIT!\n\nYknow what the so called free meal is for two in an average state 1 can fruit, 1 can veggies,  potatoes that come in a box, macaroni and cheese, one coffee filter, small pack of coffee enough for one pot, a foil roasting pan, 5 apples and a $10 gift card.  Now on one hand it sounds ok. Here is the inate problem one those food deliveries are picked up you need to go to them. My mother is lucky as she has me to pick it up for her but think about how many elderly and handicapped people have no one and get nothing because of it being inaccessible. It is just fucked up. \n\nNow the flip side of the coin.... Private organizations basically if you know someone who works they decide to put you on a list for delivery. One of my moms old school chums works with a private organization and put her on a list unbeknownst to us. They did deliver and damn did they deliver 5 bags stuffed with groceries and a bushel basket full of groceries and a $50 gift card. \n\nOK so for me that is great. But what about the elderly in our society or other disabled bed ridden like my mom with no one to help them I am sure they enjoyed their crap meal if they were even lucky enough to get that. \n\nThe stuff given at most of these shelters is shit the unhealthiest food possible. Can you imagine a 75 yr old woman with high blood pressure and high cholesterol getting mac and cheese!!!!!!! Gee why do elderly have so many health problems???\n\nThe private organization did provide some junk food also but plenty of healthy food 5lb bag of potatoes instead of the dried crap ones 8lbs fresh apples fresh squash  and so on and so forth.\n\nIf the goverment actually cared about its people it would run these food programs so the most vulnerable of society would not get the worst and only a few select would get a haul like we did. Mind you this is the first time in 6 yrs she was receiveing help from state that we got the delivery from a private org. \n\nI dont know what else to say really just basically hoping it will be one pebble in the water to help change the way it is done shame the goverment into fixing this. \n\nThere is no reason some on disability get utter crap and others the motherload of food. The weakest of human society cannot fight to get what they deserve they need to be fought for. \n\nThe reason I did not mention the private orgs name was not callousness on my part more respect as I am not sure if they want their name publicized.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','1na97o42',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18417,2075,19,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164778612,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Littles--Farm cat was going to be drowned by owner because they didn\'t want any more females! Indoors\n\nIndy--adopted from NY after 9/11 bombings indoors\n\nYellow--abandoned on my wildlife habitat not indoors but I can handle him\n\nTiger--he is feral and viscious cannot be handled but can be trapped if necessary not really my cat but he is on my wildlife habitat not indoors. He has shelters available.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','1tdflr48',1,1164867306,'',372,1,0),(18422,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164780025,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Duh is meat transported or do meat eaters eat out of a trough on the butchers floor???\n\nMeat and veggies are both transported and cause pollution meat causes more pollution to grow therefore causing more pollution overall. So while both are bad one is less bad.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','1ykgzxf5',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18446,538,22,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1164801998,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Groing and tranporting fruits and vegetables is less bad.I like to see less transporting myself and more local groing.I wish all big truks on the road wood go away and trains used for transporting wutever needs transporting.As the population gros theres more cars and big 18 wheelers on the road wich meens more nature distruction(wildanimal homes including mine)) for more road building.The more people on this here planet the more tranporting food and other kinds of stupid shit there will be.We a spoilt,lazy,fatass,consuming, throaway,overpopulating and stupid kind.We hav to stop.','',0,'EA==','3s9gq45t',1,0,'',454,0,0),(18457,2131,13,1162,0,'64.105.160.19',1164812632,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Manliness and Hunting','( I just want to note that I am new to these parts but I cheer all of the animal supporters for erring on the side of life and not buckling. Sometimes neither side\'s arguments make any sense but I commend all those who want to end this activity.\n To hunters, I am sorry that I cannot sympathize with your beliefs as I would sincerely like to understand you. I am simply unable to support happiness at having just violently blown away a magnificent animal that wants to live as much as you do and has just as much right.  Animals are utterly defenseless before powerful guns and arrows, and to exploit that is the definition of evil to me. Of course you\'ll disagree but that is what a democracy is for, so good <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->  )\n\n Please check out this article from December 4\'s NEWSWEEK, I do not know why a major media publication such as NEWSWEEK gives several pages to a pro-hunting article and zilch to an opposing viewpoint but here is the chance voice your thoughts and possibly have them published. I find the male author to be everything that is wrong with men. Thank you to Karen Dawn for posting this on her beautiful AR site DawnWatch.com ...\n\n[url:3biloser]http&#58;//www&#46;dawnwatch&#46;com/cgi-bin/dada/mail&#46;cgi/archive/dw1000000dawnwat/20061128165627/[/url:3biloser]','',0,'EA==','3biloser',1,0,'',1162,0,0),(18460,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164812915,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I hear ya Kriter. I can\'t wait till next garden season to start growing again didn\'t get as big of a crop as I wanted to this year hoping for better next year. Still got some of the harvest but it will be gone in two or three months. \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','2hoqvzel',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18463,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.24',1164813445,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:wkbrldrx]Duh is meat transported or do meat eaters eat out of a trough on the butchers floor???\n\nMeat and veggies are both transported and cause pollution meat causes more pollution to grow therefore causing more pollution overall. So while both are bad one is less bad.[/quote:wkbrldrx]\nIf you are going to give me a &quot;Duh&quot; can you at least pretend to have read my argument. It makes you look a little bit silly when you imply I am thick and then respond to something I didn\'t say. Bit of friendly advice there.\n\nI am talking about eating local meat in areas where large scale crop growing is not possible. Thus if people were not to eat meat then they would either have to move from where they live or have crops shipped in to them. It doesn\'t apply to the majority of people in the world but I thought it was an interesting hypothetical.','',0,'gA==','wkbrldrx',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18465,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164813866,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Ummm are there locally grown veggies???\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','19rv8fpb',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18469,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.24',1164814675,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Imagine highland areas which are mostly heath and grassland. There are very few plants that humans can gain nutrition from, cows and sheep etc are the only animals that can build proteins out of the grass.\n\nAnother example would be tundra where there are only small shrub like plants which some animals can feed off but not humans.','',0,'gA==','kfmgbjf8',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18488,538,22,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1164820367,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','So I reckon if there was no animals theyd eat themselfs?','',0,'gA==','19w3ws3c',1,0,'',454,0,0),(18499,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.24',1164821503,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I\'m sorry, I\'m not sure I see what you mean...could you put it into other words for me?','',0,'gA==','1kd9oqbv',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18517,2114,13,124,0,'208.38.12.26',1164828623,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Re: Views sought over use of snares in Scotland','[quote=&quot;TIME&quot;:17m1wohw]WARNING , LINK BLEOW HAS A NASTY PHOTO\n\n\nThere are concerns some devices, which are currently permitted, can cause unnecessary suffering to wild animals if misused. [/quote:17m1wohw]\n\nI am not heavily educated on snares but to me how the hell can one use a snare properly and not cause unnecessary suffering?  How do you misuse it?   <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'gA==','17m1wohw',1,0,'',124,0,0),(18537,538,22,1015,0,'205.188.117.6',1164837003,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I know exactly what Kriter is saying....and if it wasn\'t for something someone screamed at us at a demonstration, I say he was just kidding...\nbut no.....that\'s how sick these people are.\n\n    This one woman read our &quot;Meat is Murder&quot; signs and was really upset\nby it......almost in tears, she begged us to stop and try to understand...\n.....she was literally sobbing and said...&quot;BUT....BUT....if they stop slaughtering animals.....what are we supposed to eat..OUR CHILDREN?????&quot;\n\n      It takes a lot to shock me...but that did.....can you imagine...and she herself was a mother.......yet her only thought was if there were no more cattle to eat, then slaughtering innocent children would be the only solution.\n...what a sick fucking world this is.','',0,'gA==','27mfer9v',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(18538,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164839429,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','It\'s a bit of a fallacy to say that there are many places around the World where plants can\'t grow. Most places where people live, plants can be grown - if not easily grown outdoors, under cover (as where I live, a lot of crops are grown in giant poly-tunnels).\n\nMost places where it\'s too barren for plants to grow, it\'s also too barren for animals so the argument then falls flat anyway because there would also be no \'meat\' source  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> \n\nAs for the AR philosophy allowing for flesh eating in circumstances of \'need\' - well I\'ve never heard that one before!!  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: -->. Who made up that part of the philosophy?. Is there ever a \'need\' for flesh-eating??  <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> .','',0,'gA==','2eyclnom',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18539,1143,26,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164839772,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ve lived and worked in rescue shelters and have to reluctantly answer \'yes\'. I think that a painless death is still a better option that a life of infinite suffering with no prospect of happiness (e.g a torture lab).\n\nThere\'s a dog that lives near me. He\'s kept on a chain on a patch of mud outside a car breakers yard. Sometimes he escapes and is captured and chained again. Sometimes I hope that he\'ll get killed by a car whilst crossing the road so that he doesn\'t have to go back to his endless living Hell  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> .','',0,'gA==','3cuf9rqm',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18542,538,22,1627,0,'86.129.107.12',1164842306,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Just to add something to the debate at the top of this page - factory farmed animals because of their poor environment are (somehow - if I can find a website that explains this better than me I\'ll post a link) more damaging to the environment.  So even if the plants had to be transported from such a long distance (and one non-AR friend informs me that the opposite is almost always true), with factory farmed animals being the rule (not the exception), meat would probably still have the more environmentally detrimental impact.','',0,'gA==','1rhyuvad',1,0,'',1627,0,0),(18543,2137,16,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1164842942,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','ALF shirt?','Does anyone know where I can get an ALF shirt?? (Preferably long sleeve t-shirt?) I think there used to be one with the famous ALF photo on it with the liberator holding the dog? I just ordered a shirt from cafe press with a liberator holding a little baby monkey (I think the baby might be Britches). Anyone know of any ALF shirts? I know they probably don\'t sell them directly but they\'ve gotta be somewhere, no?\nOr perhaps I should learn to make them myself.\nStrictly to spread the word, you understand!!\n\nHere is the shirt I found. (Ya think this is Britches?)\n[url:6o4csuv5]http&#58;//www&#46;cafepress&#46;com/buy/animal+liberation/-/pv_design_prod/p_1948477&#46;75140747/pNo_75140747/id_14559066/fpt_/opt_/c_360/pg_[/url:6o4csuv5]','',0,'EA==','6o4csuv5',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18557,2075,19,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1164865605,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','My 4 gorgeous feline girls:\n\nPook: I was at the vet when a woman came in with this little baby 6 month old ADORABLE white and grey kitten. The woman was crying and she didn\'t speak English and I don\'t speak Spanish so our communication was a little difficult - but basically she was asking me to please take the kitten and I said no, and she got the message across to me that someone at her house was beating and abusing the kitten! Of course at that point I said &quot;Give her to me&quot; and I took her right then and there, she purred in my arms and cuddled against me. She is my POOK. She is the &quot;greeter&quot; at my house, she loves when people come over, she is very outgoing and sociable, a great kisser, and she uses the hallway as her runway because she is a supermodel, you see. She is 6 years old now. She is the love of my life. \n\nMorticia: I was at the same vet, and this little black 7 week old kitten had been rescued and was in a cage there, up for adoption. I picked her up, played with her, called her Morticia, and took her home. She is 4 years old now. She is a cranky curmudgeonly little bugger, always whining and making a scene. She is a real drama queen.\n\nZiggy Stardust: I was at Petco, looking at the adoption center there (Kitty Kind organization). There was this beautiful all white kitty, a year old, one blue eye and one yellow eye. She was so shy and sweet, living in a small cage. They told me she was very depressed, that she spent the first year of her life A. on the street and then B. in a small cage at Kitty Kind. I took her to &quot;foster&quot; her for them. Foster schmoster. She of course stayed with us in her forever home. She is 4 years old now. She hid all the time at first, it took her 8 months till she finally jumped on my lap while I was in my recliner. And now she sits with me ever since. (But she hides if anyone comes over.)\n\nAnd last but certainly not least, Greta, aka MONKEY (cos she jumps onto my back, climbs all over me, and sits on my shoulder). She was rescued by a woman who found her in the street with her siblings and no mother kitty, and it was pouring rain. The woman bottle fed the kitties (5 weeks old) then brought them to my vet to adopt out at 7 weeks. Greta was a little teeny tiny grey kitty with white underarms and white patch on her belly and neck. She was so little and I fell in love with her and took her home. She has personality plus, this one. She\'s a talker, she follows me everywhere, she even climbs the ladder with me when I change a lightbulb cos she has to be where I am and do whatever I\'m doing. She has a &quot;No Privacy&quot; rule: I am not allowed to close her out of the bathroom or she will cry and cry. She is 3 years old now and my BEST FRIEND and SOUL MATE.\n\nSo - those are my girls.  <!-- s:heart: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_syda.gif\" alt=\":heart:\" title=\"heart\" /><!-- s:heart: -->','',0,'EA==','1lhxl7ai',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18558,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164866072,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','PitBull \n\nWhile I did not make up the philosophy I can give a bit of clarificaton on it. \n\nNeed is when nothing else is available. \n\nScotland has stores you can buy food at. Living in tribal areas of Africa for instance or in a war torn country you take what you can eat. In certain parts of India there are people so poor they live on the street and eat rats which has caused many diseases but sadly it has happened and still goes on. The world is a very sick place and there are many injustices but I cannot begrudge a person starving and seeing a cow walk by and slaughtering it to feed his or her family. Of course these are extreme circumstances highly unlikely to someone like you but negating need.\n\nThere is also a disease that the person needs to intake 90% fat in their diet because that is the only thing they can break down to get nutrients. I cannot remember the diseases name but knew someone with it and she hated it. She weighed close to 400 lbs and was wheelchair bound but it was that or coma and eventual death I can forgive her for eating meat as she had a medical necessity. Please don\'t ask me the name of the disease cause I cannot remember it and I no longer know the woman as we knew each other through a past job. Anyway there are rare instances of need. What is often referred to as need is bull &quot;I need meat I\'m an athlete&quot; incorrect want not a need &quot;I need meat cause veggies don;t fill me up&quot; incorrect want not need. \n\nDue to the rare circumstances t is impossible to say a statement like &quot;No one needs meat&quot; because some people whether close or far may need it. Most people need to distinguish the difference between real necessity need and whiny want need. \n\nIf the rare instances of need where the only ones who ate meat the death toll would be reduced to less than 1% of meat consumed today and that would be wonderful.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','1p3fkcuk',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18568,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164880572,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','No, sorry, there\'s nearly always a valid alternative. In Africa there is still the possibilty of growing food but if someone eats a Rat or Cow then to my mind that is still not \'ok\' or part of \'AR philosophy\'.\n\nSomeone who needs a lot of fat - well that is very easy without meat!!!!. Soya products, vegetable oils, avacadoes, nuts..........the list is endless.\n\nPlease don\'t go about saying that eating other animals \'in times of desperate need\' is part of the AR philosophy - in 20 years of being involved I have never met another AR person who would agree with that statement!  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: --> .','',0,'EA==','1u9y358s',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18569,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164880690,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','.............by the way, to me that is just the same as saying \'eating other humans in times of desperate need is ok under the Human Rights philosophy\' - I just can\'t believe what you posted on an ALF board!  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> .','',0,'EA==','1ga5w3g4',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18572,538,22,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1164884749,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Gingerlks&quot;:3rlsshl8]I know exactly what Kriter is saying....and if it wasn\'t for something someone screamed at us at a demonstration, I say he was just kidding...\nbut no.....that\'s how sick these people are.\n\n    This one woman read our &quot;Meat is Murder&quot; signs and was really upset\nby it......almost in tears, she begged us to stop and try to understand...\n.....she was literally sobbing and said...&quot;BUT....BUT....if they stop slaughtering animals.....what are we supposed to eat..OUR CHILDREN?????&quot;[/quote:3rlsshl8]\n\n     \nZacklee,thank you kindly Ginger.','',0,'gA==','3rlsshl8',1,0,'',454,0,0),(18580,2137,16,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1164893226,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Definately looks like Britches. I\'ve never seen any ALF shirts on the net, but I guess you could make your own design on a t-shirt making site.','',0,'gA==','14ic1hwn',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18581,2137,16,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164893345,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I thought you could buy them from the ALFSG website?. I used to have a load of them which i bought either from them or Arkangel, can\'t remember. Just google ALF merchandise, there\'s definitely a load you can buy from US sites.','',0,'gA==','2u5e5p4m',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18582,2137,16,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1164893409,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ve googled ALF merchandise before and all I get is \'Alf\' that tv show merchandise :S','',0,'gA==','2dpjykqx',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18583,2137,16,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164893444,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:sfyj1wd0]I\'ve googled ALF merchandise before and all I get is \'Alf\' that tv show merchandise :S[/quote:sfyj1wd0]\n\n <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','sfyj1wd0',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18585,2137,16,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164893684,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','go to;\n<!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.alfsg.org.uk\">www.alfsg.org.uk</a><!-- w --> \nand you\'ll find two t-shirts @ £7.50 each.','',0,'gA==','2d6erqwr',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18591,2137,16,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1164895353,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Oh yeah, I found that site...doesn\'t show the shirts in action, so to speak, though :p','',0,'gA==','1a76qxxf',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18594,2137,16,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164895527,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:28km2ah3]Oh yeah, I found that site...doesn\'t show the shirts in action, so to speak, though :p[/quote:28km2ah3]\n\nIt does now, if you go to \'merchandise\' you can see both designs.','',0,'gA==','28km2ah3',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18598,2137,16,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1164896043,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeah, that\'s what I was on about, you see the designs, but not the actual shirts themselves...','',0,'gA==','379ri5ly',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18601,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164897036,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','The problem is if you live on the street you have no where to grow food for yourself. Caste system may be outlawed in India but many people still live by it. The sanitation workers are not even given gloves in some areas when they clean out the sewers because they are considered unclean spiritually and some palces they are not even allowed access to water and have to wait till they travel to the next town. If these lower people drink from the wrong water source people will physically beat them or kill them calling the police in India you may have to wait 2 to 3 days for them to show in certain areas. They are not allowed in stores and spat upon regularly. Yes much of India is changing but much of that still happens. Do not say they can simply grow food if they are homeless this is short sighted and foolish. I did not say it was the norm or an example that would work in most places but unless you know everyone in the world you cannot make that judgement. There are places in the world where prisoners are kept more than 7 days without food as a form of torture if by chance they catch a chicken by accident good they should eat it. These are extreme examples and unlikely for us but it does happen and to begrudge a person on brink of death food as is taught to majority of the human race is ridiculous. Go look at some pictures of people in India whom are disfigured from people throwing acid in their face from trying to drink water and tell me they have a chance to eat a vegan diet!\n\nHere is one site showing a bit about the subject\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Acids/acid-attack-1.htm\">http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Acids/ ... tack-1.htm</a><!-- m -->\\\n\nNow sit back in your easy chair at your computer turn up your tv, radio, heat, and air conditioning and tell her the importance of veganism.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','33ispan0',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18605,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164898164,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','While I am on my tyraid\n\n\nCheck out this article on infant abandonment yet another group of woman I am sure who have a nice posh life forced to abandon their babies on roadsides or poison them due to cultural insanity is the only word I have.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html\">http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html</a><!-- m -->\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1qkcplxg',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18606,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164899235,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Well I hear what you\'re saying but \na) to me animals do not = \'food\'\nand\nb) this may be YOUR point of view but it is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN part of AR philosophy\nand\nc) yes, there may the rare instance where a person somewhere will chose to eat flesh rather than starve but it still does not make it \'right\'.\nSome men chose to rape women because they cannot get a sexual kick any other way but it\'s still wrong.','',0,'gA==','1yf1wz3n',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18607,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.24',1164899768,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Well the man would not die if he did not have sex but in some (rare) circumstances he might if he didn\'t eat meat. In those life or death circumstances is it not the same as a natural carnivor eating a prey animal?','',0,'gA==','3lzyfoy6',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18608,538,22,1253,0,'149.167.231.163',1164900166,1,0,0,0,1,0,'','logic','How can you say that there is always a valid alternative to eating meat. How many thousands of people starve to death every day, dont you think that if there was a valid alternative that they would take it, if any of you visited any of these places im sure you would understand that respecting the rights of animals is the last of these peoples worries. And on another note, i cant believe how stuck up all you vegans are. You dismiss many criticisms and label these people as idiots or murderers, a little control and respect would be nice. I would also like for you to clear something up for me, many of you use the term speciest and i was wondering how any living person could not be a speciest. To me, a non-speciest would be someone that doesnt discriminate according to species but assuming that you people eat someting, dont you think that you are speciest because you think eating plants is okay, surely discriminating against species of plant should mean you are a speciest. Please clear me up on this because i feel ive missed something but otherwise stop using the term speciest.','',0,'gA==','xchr8lfm',1,0,'',1253,0,0),(18609,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164901202,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','erm - how does eating meat actually help with world hunger?. Think about it!. If an animal can survive somewhere then so can a human, in most cases. Plants will grow in the unlikeliest of places but it\'s a waste of resources to feed animals and then eat the animals!  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: --> .','',0,'gA==','x5p687wg',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18614,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164903512,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Mitch - I think most people are at least a little \'speciesist\' - but plants are not actualy a *species* of animal, they are a different, non-sentient (at least they have no central nervous system and have not been proved to be sentient) type of life-form.\n\nAnywhere animals live, so do plants - that is how animals survive, by eating plants, yes?. So it\'s much better for the environment, and for animals, for people to live directly off plant matter.\n\nPersonally I am not stuck-up atall, I just care a LOT about animals and about the planet in general. I live as simplistically as possible, which involves growing my own food as much as I can, which can be tricky in the climate of North-east Scotland. However, you\'d probably be suprised what will grow with a bit of extra thought. If I was starving I would look around me at the animals, see what they were eating and see if I could eat it myself.\n\nAnimals do not = food to me  <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: --> .','',0,'gA==','20ivgelb',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18615,538,22,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1164905474,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Rite on Pit Bull.Your words are good.\nIf you get a hankering maybe you cood tell me about your simple living way under the Simple Living title in the Open forum.I gro most my own food and liv off grid.','',0,'gA==','1gp51ko4',1,0,'',454,0,0),(18616,1143,26,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164905994,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Hmm... I know what I\'d do if that was happening near me...  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','3imjkn91',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18617,1143,26,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164906382,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;AutomaticMan&quot;:q909sc2p]Hmm... I know what I\'d do if that was happening near me...  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:q909sc2p]\n\n\nEasier said than done, though - I live in a tiny village full of curtain-twitchers. I won\'t give up on him yet, though!  <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'gA==','q909sc2p',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18618,1143,26,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164907768,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Good point. I know nothing of the circumstances so, I\'m sure you\'re doing the best possible anyway.  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','1ykdtjt8',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18619,754,18,1400,0,'138.88.169.199',1164908305,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I quit smoking in March after I found out that my dad had lung cancer.\nI feel much better now and when I look at him I know I won\'t smoke ever again...it\'s not worth it.','',0,'gA==','gus054rr',1,0,'',1400,0,0),(18620,2137,16,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1164908931,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;chenli&quot;:284slqpq]I\'ve googled ALF merchandise before and all I get is \'Alf\' that tv show merchandise :S[/quote:284slqpq]\n\nLOL  that\'s all I found too when I did a google search.\n\nThank you Pit Bull, that link is great, maybe I will get one of those shirts. I see what you mean chenli, you can\'t see the actual shirt. \n\nI just love those animal liberator photos. Can\'t get enough of \'em. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','284slqpq',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18621,2137,16,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164909016,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','They\'re just plain, good quality t-shirts with the image printed as shown - I mean large as in the picture, and I think the price is reasonable, too.','',0,'gA==','1xhdghtt',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18627,538,22,1391,0,'129.67.17.126',1164914234,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;Pit Bull&quot;:myddthm5]erm - how does eating meat actually help with world hunger?. Think about it!. If an animal can survive somewhere then so can a human, in most cases. Plants will grow in the unlikeliest of places but it\'s a waste of resources to feed animals and then eat the animals!  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: --> .[/quote:myddthm5]\nThere are many species of plant which humans cannot digest. Take grass. Thus if you live on windswept grassy highland sheep will be able to feed of plants but a population of humans may have a hard time.','',0,'gA==','myddthm5',1,0,'',1391,0,0),(18630,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164916442,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Addict&quot;:252pig0s][quote=&quot;Pit Bull&quot;:252pig0s]erm - how does eating meat actually help with world hunger?. Think about it!. If an animal can survive somewhere then so can a human, in most cases. Plants will grow in the unlikeliest of places but it\'s a waste of resources to feed animals and then eat the animals!  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: --> .[/quote:252pig0s]\nThere are many species of plant which humans cannot digest. Take grass. Thus if you live on windswept grassy highland sheep will be able to feed of plants but a population of humans may have a hard time.[/quote:252pig0s]\n\n\nActually I think a human would have a MUCH harder time chomping into a Sheep straight off the hillside  <!-- s:roll: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif\" alt=\":roll:\" title=\"Rolling Eyes\" /><!-- s:roll: --> .','',0,'gA==','252pig0s',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18631,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164916613,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Choosing is a choice. When in dire straits such as your country is being bombed and your house blew up and your wife and kids have broken legs but you have a gun and can kill an animal by all means do it that is not a choice. As I said these instances are few and far between if we actually convinced normal people to go to a vegan diet then these instances would be reduceed even more and thus consuming that less than 1% would be less and less! As far as living to far out of the way if it is choice then tuff. But tribal people have very little money to help change there situation to ethical. Try getting a job dressed in a loincloth.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','tuonev2b',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18633,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164916994,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I repeat - where there are animals there is also food to feed the animals.\n\nHow much does it cost for a packet of seeds?.\n\nWould resources be better used directly feeding humans, or feeding animals to feed humans?.\n\nPlease give me an example of an inhabited environment today where it is impossible to live on plant foods?.\n\nI don\'t have either a loincloth or a job yet I still manage to live well on plant foods.\n\nAlso, I repeat, even if you are correct, it is not, and never has been, part of AR philosophy to claim that it is ever ok to eat other animals, so please don\'t claim to represent the whole movement with your views on animal cannibalism  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> .','',0,'gA==','3gjtmn6e',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18636,2137,16,1123,0,'84.30.73.160',1164918413,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.voice-magazin.de/shop/artikel/bekleidung/\">http://www.voice-magazin.de/shop/artikel/bekleidung/</a><!-- m -->\n\nhere are some pretty-cool ones but sadly enough they aren\'t available anymore  <!-- s:x --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif\" alt=\":x\" title=\"Mad\" /><!-- s:x -->  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> \n\nand here are also some A.L.F. shirt\'s::::\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.tierbefreier-shop.de/onlineshop/\">http://www.tierbefreier-shop.de/onlineshop/</a><!-- m -->\n\n <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->','',0,'gA==','2j4fo29w',1,0,'',1123,0,0),(18637,2137,16,575,0,'81.152.218.255',1164919651,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','o0o0o, I like those &quot;vegan&quot; belts.','',0,'gA==','1tin63ox',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18639,2137,16,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164921443,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','There\'s some smart designs on there.\nI have the Support the A.L.F. circle one!  <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) --> \nI\'ve just ordered some stuff of EBLOOD, they\'re a very good Vegan Striaght Edge company <!-- w --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.ebloodclothing.com\">www.ebloodclothing.com</a><!-- w --> (maybe that should be in the links, oh well)','',0,'gA==','1cl7ywkm',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18642,2137,16,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164921908,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I like the ALF t-shirts but I stopped wearing them some years ago because it made me so \'obvious\'. If you live in a small place then you don\'t want to announce your allegiances to the World - if you hope to get anything done.\nPlus the fact that when I was younger I used to get into fights every damn time I went out in one of those t-shirts  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> .\n\nStill, I\'m happy that people do wear them and are proud to support direct action  <!-- s:cheers: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_pidu.gif\" alt=\":cheers:\" title=\"cheers\" /><!-- s:cheers: --> .','',0,'gA==','1kptcwtv',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18643,2137,16,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164922094,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','At first I didn\'t wear it that much but now I\'ll just casualy put it on. I\'ve worn it for meals and non-uniform days. \nProbably not the thing to wear at a demo though!','',0,'gA==','1cn7zsq3',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18659,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164931956,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','First I said it was a philosophy I did not say it was an AR philosophy. However I have a little bit of common sense and realize not everyone lives like I do. \n\nYou say you want an example of something that would negate a need well I know a survivor from Hitlers concentration camps he ate a cat. Yeah its disgusting but he did what he had too. I can\'t begrudge him the times were atrocious the beatings were atrocious and if you were a mid 30s male and under 70 lbs I wonder how strong your morals would be. In those horrific situation one does not have time to morally philosophize. Again this is not a modern thing but it did happen and while a sad excuse still an excuse fear and desperation make people do desperate things. Now lets look for a modern example. First a question how long does a soybean plant take to grow? If you lived in Afghanistan and your house had been burned and you were living on a field that has also been burnt but the cow escaped would you live long enough for those seeds to grow? I doubt it. Again desparation not necessarily the persons fault. Yes resources overall blah blah blah it make sense but the reality of it cannot always happen for people in these areas. I have a freind who went to Africa doing missionary work she brought things to some of the tribal areas where people slept on dirt and there homes were wet duriong the rain and when they went to the bathroom it was in a hole they quick dug in the ground. These people do not even have running nevermiond cabinets. Some of them do not even have enough plates for the whole family and they hunt there food. There are no jobs. It is them and the land and they cannot irrigate enough to water enough crops so they supplement with hunting. Only so much some people can do and for you to not get that is perposterous. A normal person should be vegan and then us vegans should help people like that who need the help so they could be vegan but for now I respect them. Until you make their lives better they do what they have to. Regrettable and unfortunate but sadly reality.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','1vi6cf8c',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18663,2075,19,1661,0,'81.151.36.74',1164932886,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Oh dear, fatal mistake, giving me a chance to talk about my babies. I\'ll keep it brief!\n\nCandy-palomino pony, mare, rescued from slaughter, 21 years old, beautiful and wise.\n\nAlfie-grey pony, gelding, rescued from slaughter, 5 years old, sweet and cheeky.\n\nTess-collie x, rescue dog, welsh stray, 7 years old, my angel!\n\nDillon-pointer not a rescue oops! he was a wedding present! noble and funny!\n\nRufus-cat, rescued, 1 year old, affectionate and cute\n <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->','',0,'gA==','2i6o2glc',1,0,'',1661,0,0),(18665,2057,3,1702,0,'129.44.216.117',1164934796,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','I disagree, I like meat','[quote:2v4wncmz] cut with a factory made carving knife... [/quote:2v4wncmz]\n\nIf you are a vegetarian or vegan, do you not use any metal silverware? Do you use knapped stone tools in the kitchen? The evolution of cooking utensils is not relevant to the discussion of consuming the flesh of animals because they are essential in the consumption of almost all sources of nutrition.\n\n[quote:2v4wncmz] In closing, meat is nothing more than something a human eats because it tastes good when served up cooked and processed. To kill something for enjoyment, is murder. Just as it is murder for the human to kill the human for enjoyment. [/quote:2v4wncmz]\n\nHumans consume meat due to the extremely high concentrations of protein and fat. Humans evolved as scavengers who would consume the leftover protein and fat that was left on the kills of more dominant carnivores. Humans and our ancestors experienced tremendous growth in their brain tissue as a result of consuming large amounts of fat and protein, as these are the building blocks for our brains. This brain tissue allowed us to use tools to break apart the bones and obtain the nutritious protein and fat of the bone marrow. \n\nAs we developed into a dominant species on earth, we spread to other environments and adapted to the unique set of circumstances in each place. Cooking evolved as a manner of combating foreign microbial parasites in scavenged food that humans encountered in these new places. In fact, the earliest archaeological evidence for cooking food is from a [i:2v4wncmz]homo erectus[/i:2v4wncmz] site dating to 550,000-300,000 years ago. The [i:2v4wncmz]homo erectus[/i:2v4wncmz] is an archaic hominid that is thought to have possibly evolved into the [i:2v4wncmz]homo sapiens[/i:2v4wncmz]. There is little distinction between consuming raw flesh and cooked flesh other than the decreased health risks associated with cooking certain things. Humans are known to consume the raw flesh of many ocean-living animals because they rarely, if ever, contain microbial parasites.\n\n[quote:2v4wncmz] Animals who eat meat in the wild do so because they need to and it is natural for them to hunt down their prey and consume the raw flesh of their prey. Also, they do not have the ability to make choice about what they eat, whereas we do. [/quote:2v4wncmz]\n\nThere are other omnivores in nature that do make decisions on food choices. Bears consume some meat in addition to vegetation and they actively choose what animals and what parts of the animals they will eat. Bears are known to only eat the heads of salmon, when they are highly abundant, for the high concentrations of protein and fat. Thus, they are not only actively choosing which food source to consume based on a high amount of protein and fat, they are also only consuming the most nutritionally dense part of the animal. \n\nA disturbing example of the decision to consciously seek out and consume other animals is seen in orangutans. Orangutan diet is primarily based on fruit, but there are many recorded instances of orangutan killing and eating slow lorises. The slow loris is a primate that is distantly related to the great apes. Orangutans can and do live long lives without consuming any meat or flesh, they have evolved primarily on fruit. However, they are incredibly intelligent primates whom consciously seek out and consume other animals, even other primates.\n\n[quote:2v4wncmz] We do not need to eat meat, nor do we hunt it down naturally, also, we have the choice to decide what we eat, and we also can understand suffering that is caused by consuming meat. The animals cannot. Aswell as all this, the prey animals in the wild have a fair chance of survival with regards to their predators. The animals humans eat are bred to be murdered, and have no chance of escape from their inevitable fate. [/quote:2v4wncmz]\n\nHuman action has rarely been based simply on necessity; we are the most dominant and most adaptable mammal known to science. \n\nYou reason that other animals besides humans are incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions against other animals and therefore do not understand suffering. I think that you are belittling the degree of consciousness that other animals do have simply because it is less than humans’. Raising animals and killing them for meat is not the only source of suffering in this world, if you consume energy in any matter then some other life-form must suffer, it is a cruel fact of life. \n\nPlants suffer from our consumption and destruction of them. When a tree is cut or damaged, there is a visible reaction and response by the tree to the damage. It is not the same type of response that humans as animals exhibit because trees are plants. However, there is a response that indicates that the plant is capable of responding to external, “un-naturalâ€','',0,'oA==','2v4wncmz',1,0,'',1702,0,0);
INSERT INTO `phpbb4_posts` VALUES (18668,2057,3,1439,0,'74.12.61.227',1164937968,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Just a little interesting reading on this subject written by the esteemed Dr. Akilah El\nNaturopathic Doctor\n\n&quot;Although some historians and anthropologists say that man is historically omnivorous, our anatomical equipment ­ teeth, jaws, and digestive system ­ favors a fleshless diet. The American Dietetic Association notes that &quot;most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets.&quot;\n\nAnd much of the world still lives that way. Even on most industrialized countries, the love affair with meat is less than a hundred years old. It started with the refrigerator car and the twentieth-century consumer society. But even with the twentieth century, man\'s body hasn\'t adapted to eating meat. The prominent Swedish scientist Karl von Linne states, &quot;Man\'s structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food.&quot; The chart below compares the anatomy of man with that of carnivorous and herbivorous animals.\n\nWhen you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat. \n\n[i:3oi01v15]Meat-eaters: have claws\n\nHerbivores: no claws \n\nHumans: no claws\n\n Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue\n\nHerbivores: perspire through skin pores\n\nHumans: perspire through skin pores\n\n Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding\n\nHerbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding\n\nHumans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding\n\n Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly\n\nHerbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.\n\nHumans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.\n\n\nMeat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat\n\nHerbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater\n\nHumans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater\n\n Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.\n\nHerbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits\n\nHumans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits\n\n Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains\n\nHerbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains\n\nHumans: have [/i:3oi01v15]alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains&quot;\n\nBased on a chart by A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)\n\n &quot;Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn\'t have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores&quot;','',0,'IA==','3oi01v15',1,0,'',1439,0,0),(18669,2075,19,1439,0,'74.12.61.227',1164939158,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I have three tree walking coonhounds, all ex-hunting dogs rescued from deplorable situations.  I also had a bluetick hound (also a rescue, but unfortunatley she passed away last month due to old age.  Our newest canine companion is from a litter of heinz 57 mixes left in a box at 3 weeks old outside our local animal shelter, there were six in total and only two survived, our little girl was one of them. As they were left without any blankets or shelter and the weather was cold four died of hypothermia and my little girl lost the tip of one of her ear to frost bite. They were taken from their mother much too soon and had to be bottle fed every two hours for three straight weeks, she is now a chubby, happy little girl who has learned to howl (very convincingly) like a hound  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> \n\nSix....yes, that\'s not a typo, cats.  All strays and rescues (do I have sucker written on my forehead?)\n\nand finally a beautiful quarter/stranderbred cross mare who was destined for the dinner table of some horse flesh meeting individual, she\'s only three and before she came to me she had never had a day of training in her whole life.  \n\nNone of these animals are just companions, they have become part of my family and I will ensure that they never suffer another day of pain or neglect again.','',0,'IA==','2tsjzmz5',1,0,'',1439,0,0),(18672,2137,16,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1164940058,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Thanks raymond <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) -->\nI had to email them and hope someone there can read English to help me order cos I unfortunately did not understand much of that site!  <!-- s:eyes: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eyes.gif\" alt=\":eyes:\" title=\"confused\" /><!-- s:eyes: -->\n\nAutomatic Man,\n[i:1sb4sxhy]Probably not the thing to wear at a demo though! [/i:1sb4sxhy]\n\nWhy not? Wouldn\'t most people be supportive at a demo?  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'IA==','1sb4sxhy',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18675,1186,16,1695,0,'71.240.171.106',1164941338,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Please do not think I am trying to force my lifestyle on you., I often get accused of that. . <!-- s:silenced: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_silenced.gif\" alt=\":silenced:\" title=\"silenced\" /><!-- s:silenced: --> I am just trying to share information.\n\nPersonally, I do not feed my animals any brand of commericaly prepared pet foods. They are nutrionally deficit. In additon, the pet food industry exsists soley to finish out the meat industry.\n\nAs an alternative, I feed my animals meats and meat products that I\'ve got local delis and such to provide me with, that they would have otherwise thrown away. \n(I do not eat meat or dairy products, but I think it would be cruel to deprive my animals of it, as they eat meat in nature).\n\nIf you are intrested in reading about this from a professional point of veiw( keep in mind all information is bias), I found this article pretty good. Definatley worth the read.\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?more=1&amp;p=359\">http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?more=1&amp;p=359</a><!-- m -->','',0,'IA==','rwzzt447',1,0,'',1695,0,0),(18677,2006,16,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1164941500,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.methodhome.com/\">http://www.methodhome.com/</a><!-- m -->\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.methodhome.com/whatfor/environment.php\">http://www.methodhome.com/whatfor/environment.php</a><!-- m -->  (This page is really great.)\n\nI\'ve been using only Method soap for probably a couple of years now. I love the company, love the soap. (I buy the Sweet Water scent. YUMMY.)','',0,'IA==','2gin4osd',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18678,1463,3,1695,0,'71.240.171.106',1164942295,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I agree completley.\n\nthe word organic had changed over the past 10 years, no longer is it an indicator of wholesome foods, but rather another marketing strategy.\n\nPeople, when brought to awareness of the crulety of their habits, will try to justify it.\n\nCapitalists know this, and intend to soothe their conciousnesses.','',0,'IA==','1fngiw13',1,0,'',1695,0,0),(18679,2057,3,1702,0,'129.44.216.117',1164942585,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Ummmm','[quote:1i2jwrsx]  Even on most industrialized countries, the love affair with meat is less than a hundred years old. It started with the refrigerator car and the twentieth-century consumer society. [/quote:1i2jwrsx]\n\nI am aware of ancient societies on every continent on earth who consumed animal products as a major source of food. Reindeer pastoralists in northern Europe, Mongolian pastoralists, Persian pastoralists, Australian aboriginees, Peruvian fisherpeople, and Saharan nomads. Archaeological sites from North America show that people killed, butchered, PROCESSED (yes, native americans were processing food thousands of years ago), and cooked over thirty species of animals. Everything from small birds to dogs to deer to fish to bear. \n\nThe idea that humans have began eating meat in the last hundred years, to be blunt, is a crock of shit. The fact that meat has become extremely prevalent and is more represented in Western diets than in periods of less economic prosperity, that would be correct.\n\n[quote:1i2jwrsx] &quot;Although some historians and anthropologists say that man is historically omnivorous, our anatomical equipment ­ teeth, jaws, and digestive system ­ favors a fleshless diet. The American Dietetic Association notes that &quot;most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets.&quot; [/quote:1i2jwrsx]\n\nAs I understand it, we evolved from arboreal vegetarians whom also consumed some insects. As savannah grasslands appearred, our ancestors were forced to cross larger and larger spaces to find more trees. This increase in energy demands was partly met by scavenging dead animals that they passed on way to other patches of forest. The taste buds of these early people, whose nervous systems demanded more fat and protein, recognized that the remains of these animals were rich in fat and protein. Hence, the began to eat flesh. However, the vast majority of our evolutionary history was as a herbivore.\n\nEven as I talk about consuming flesh, I recognize that most humans consume more vegetation than animal products. Only a few cultures in desolate environments like the Inuit and the Mongolians consume animal flesh or dairy as their primary source of food. \n\nThese practices of consuming animal flesh despite an anatomy more befitting consumption of vegetation is a result of humanity\'s rapid development in mental ability and culture that has outpaced physical evolution.  Our ability to include other animals in our diet has exceeded the rate that our bodies have adapted to this changing diet.\n\nI have enjoyed eating almost every animal product that I have come across in Western and foreign countries. However, even I consume far more vegetation than animal flesh and so it would be a disadvantage to have dentition like a carnivore, rather than my present teeth which are very adept at eating  nuts, fruits, starchy vegetables, leafy vegetables, and even animal flesh.','',0,'gA==','1i2jwrsx',1,0,'',1702,0,0),(18685,2057,3,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164957755,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','People who argue against animals having equal rights to humans say that humans are \'at the top of the food chain\', more sophisticated, etc.........which defies their argument really. Because we are more sophisticated we have the mental capacity to realise pain and suffering, and to avoid it or even take steps to end it!  <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> . We are omnivores and there are many foodstuffs available to us that are better for us and the planet, then flesh is.\n\nAlso, Anarchist, if you liken yourself to a Tiger - have you ever tried running through a field and downing a Cow, and sinking your teeth into its flesh?. No?. Exactly. We are different you see.','',0,'gA==','bgaxnmro',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18686,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164958533,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yes, I do what I can to help other people, and the Planet - recently my son\'s school planned to send a Goat to Africa but I intervened and now they are helping out with a sanitation project instead.\n\nEating a Cat, or any other animal would actually have little to do with my morals because I just don\'t, and never would, see any animal, and think, \'food\'.\n\nUnfortunately I can\'t now find the quote, but someone here did say that eating meat in times of need (and I thought it was you) was \'part of AR philosophy\', and I was pointing out that it isn\'t  <!-- s:head banging: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_wall.gif\" alt=\":head banging:\" title=\"head banging\" /><!-- s:head banging: --> .','',0,'gA==','3dtaf6rr',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18687,1463,3,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164958745,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Ultrninja&quot;:9v5mgr4v]Actually (excuse me if i\'m wrong) but they shave gooses after they are dead, the don\'t slit pigs thorats, (i think they just lop them off) and i don\'t think people eat emus[/quote:9v5mgr4v]\n\n\nPeople will eat any sort of animal, Emus included - and why does the above matter anyway?...........','',0,'gA==','9v5mgr4v',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18690,538,22,1692,0,'81.153.219.83',1164959859,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','Re: necessity of meat','[quote=&quot;AnnB&quot;:2b3tadvt]The AR philosophy does not deny that killing is morally acceptable when survival is at stake. It\'s usually not necessary to qualify this every time, since it is qualified in the FAQs, which everyone has read.\n\nStill, the generalization that meat is not necessary can probably be safely made to anyone using the Internet.[/quote:2b3tadvt]\n\n\nRight, here is the quote i was searching for, and indeed it was not a comment initially made by you, Vegan Angel, so I do apologise.\n\nI am very disheartened though to see who did make the comment - the same person who has also said that people should continue to wear leather  <!-- s:shock: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif\" alt=\":shock:\" title=\"Shocked\" /><!-- s:shock: --> .\n\nWell, Ann, I really think you need to redefine some of your philosophies and, more importantly, stop projecting out your own beliefs as general \'AR philosophy\', or as some sort of \'official\' ALF stance. Animals are no more food than you or I  <!-- s:naughty: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_naughty.gif\" alt=\":naughty:\" title=\"naughty\" /><!-- s:naughty: --> .','',0,'gA==','2b3tadvt',1,0,'',1692,0,0),(18699,538,22,575,0,'212.219.63.253',1164972165,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','When did Ann say something about leather?\n\nAnd I personally don\'t think people should eat meat, no matter what situation they are in; especially as the whole give a poor family in poor countries and animal thing is a waste of valuable plants that could be eaten by humans or land that could be made fertile. As someone said before, you have to feed the animal plants in order for the animal to grow, therefore, you have to waste valuable crops, and waste time waiting for the animal to grow to a particular age at which it will be murdered.\n\nJust like pitbull, animals to me, aren\'t food, nor is anything they happen to &quot;lay&quot; or &quot;secrete&quot;. And I probably would rather starve myself in a typical \'desert island\' situation than kill an innocent animal to satisfy my hunger.\n\nBut that\'s my personal view, not the entire view of all AR\'s.','',0,'gA==','1kkhg39o',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18700,2137,16,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1164972742,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote=&quot;raymond&quot;:3lnfv1rv]http://www.voice-magazin.de/shop/artikel/bekleidung/\n\nhere are some pretty-cool ones but sadly enough they aren\'t available anymore  <!-- s:x --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif\" alt=\":x\" title=\"Mad\" /><!-- s:x -->  <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( --> \n\nand here are also some A.L.F. shirt\'s::::\n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.tierbefreier-shop.de/onlineshop/\">http://www.tierbefreier-shop.de/onlineshop/</a><!-- m -->\n\n <!-- s:wink: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif\" alt=\":wink:\" title=\"Wink\" /><!-- s:wink: -->[/quote:3lnfv1rv]\n\nThese are rite cool.Im from the US.Dont meen to sound to dum but I dont understand the money or the language.How much are the shirts?\nI got me a black shirt and went to a craft store and got me fabric paint and painted the ALF logo on the back.Ill wair at the next protest or wen I go to town,then disapeer back into the woods.','',0,'gA==','3lnfv1rv',1,0,'',454,0,0),(18713,2057,3,1439,0,'69.28.196.152',1164986186,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','even if our ancestors, however far back, ate meat is not really the point.  Our ancestors  committed atrocities of war, genocide....again I could go on, but it doesnt make it right, nor can we make it an argument for re-enactments.  \n\nWhat science and research is now able to show us is just how unatural meat eating is for our systems, so regardless of how long we have been doing or not doing it our systems have not developed to make it any less determental to our overall well being.  case in point;\n\nThe Journal of the American Medical Association has reported as early as 1961 that ninety to ninety-seven percent of heart disease could be prevented by a vegetarian diet.\n\nMore evidence of the unnaturalness of a meat-based diet for humans is the relationship between meat consumption and colon cancer.  When meat is being digested, it is known to produce cancer-causing steroid metabolites.  A high-fat, low-fiber, meat-centered diet results in slow transit through the colon, which allows toxic wastes to do their damage.\n\n.  Another health concern of meat, which most consumers are not aware of, results from the hazardous chemicals that are present in meat, such as sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite.  These chemicals are used to preserve meat and give it a bright-red appearance, rather than the gray-brown color of dead flesh, which would occur naturally.\n\nWomen who eat more than 1.5 servings of red meat per day are nearly twice as likely to develop hormone-related breast cancer compared to women who eat fewer than three servings per week, according to a new Harvard study.\n&quot;Researchers from Harvard Medical School examined records from The Nurses\' Health Study -- which includes data on more than 90,000 women who were questioned on their dietary habits in 1991, 1995 and 1999 -- and found that red meat consumption is linked with a higher risk of breast cancer. &quot;\nThese studies and scientific evidence is quite hard to refute.....no?','',0,'gA==','pktgnj0j',1,0,'',1439,0,0),(18715,1463,3,1439,0,'69.28.196.152',1164986571,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Here in Canada emu farming has become one of the fastest growing agricultural industries.  Emu meat is high priced and still considered quite a delicacy. The eum\'s eggs are eaten and emu oil is used for a number of purposes, you can even find emu leather boots and purses.  They are treated no better than the average beef cow.  We humans are just getting sicker and sicker and we pick and choose which animals to exploit for financial gains.','',0,'gA==','2alnvoas',1,0,'',1439,0,0),(18716,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1164986744,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Harldy any of us were raised vegan since birth. While we may not view animals as food now at one point we did. Congrats to us all we evolved mentally. Times of extreme stress like your home being bombed may change us back to our old selves out of desperation. I never said it was impossible to grow food in Afghanistan but prehaps temporarily impossible for sustenance and while you are growing crops you may need to eat animal of course this is higely unlikely because if house and fields were burned liklelyhood you and your cow are dead anyway. But in the one in a million shot that for some reason they both survive. Survival of the fittest would kick in that is all I am saying. I am not saying it is a pretty picture.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','3pqfyuw4',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18717,1463,3,1695,0,'71.240.171.106',1164988807,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;kashi&quot;:2rmlllia]Here in Canada emu farming has become one of the fastest growing agricultural industries.  Emu meat is high priced and still considered quite a delicacy. The eum\'s eggs are eaten and emu oil is used for a number of purposes, you can even find emu leather boots and purses.  They are treated no better than the average beef cow.  We humans are just getting sicker and sicker and we pick and choose which animals to exploit for financial gains.[/quote:2rmlllia]\n\n\nThats sick. Another commodity. Another product. <!-- s:( --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif\" alt=\":(\" title=\"Very sad\" /><!-- s:( -->','',0,'gA==','2rmlllia',1,0,'',1695,0,0),(18719,538,22,2,0,'208.53.138.224',1164992004,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','tired','[quote:3rz8rpjj]The AR philosophy does not deny that killing is morally acceptable when survival is at stake. It\'s usually not necessary to qualify this every time, since it is qualified in the FAQs, which everyone has read.[/quote:3rz8rpjj]\n\n[quote:3rz8rpjj]Well, Ann, I really think you need to redefine some of your philosophies and, more importantly, stop projecting out your own beliefs as general \'AR philosophy\', or as some sort of \'official\' ALF stance. Animals are no more food than you or I[/quote:3rz8rpjj]\n\n&quot;When survival is at stake&quot; means death is imminent. That means that a person is under attack or is starving to death. These cases are rare, but they are trotted out as &quot;moral dilemmas&quot; to make animal rights seem hypocritical. The AR logic is not hypocritical. Under the same situations where it would be morally acceptable to kill a human it is morally acceptable to kill a sentient animal. Anyone who says it is &quot;never okay&quot; will be proven to be hypocritical, which is bad for our movement. This &quot;dilemma&quot; is well documented in AR literature. \n\nIf I say something is part of general &quot;AR philosophy&quot; I am prepared to show exactly where in the literature this opinion is stated. In fact, none of the AR philosophers (Singer, Dunayer, Regan, Francione) disagree with the statement I made. If you say otherwise, you\'ll have to show me a statement that refutes it. \n\nUnfortunately I don\'t have time to answer all the attacks against the ALF or AR philosophy or this board or me. Therefore you\'ll have to provide proof of your claim, not me.\n\nThat goes for everyone on this board. If you disagree with a statement, show proof. It\'s not acceptable to troll the board and slam things, then expect everyone else to dig up answers for you.','',0,'gA==','3rz8rpjj',1,0,'',2,0,0),(18720,538,22,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164993175,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','If you really were starving to death your morals would go out of the window.\nThe science bit*: When you\'re body is devoid of food it shuts down parts that are not vital as we know. Our advanced cerebal cortex is eventually (almost the last thing) shut down. Goodbye advanced thinking, all that\'s left is a \'reptilian brain\' and that simply wants food, drink, sleep shelter etc all the *needs* for life. Which explains how people can resort to cannibalism, you\'d have to be incredibly strong willed to resist this basic urge to eat. Once you have eaten the \'mammalian brain\' is back again and you will think about what you have done. Thus even you and me may eat an animal if the above situation happens (pray that it doesn\'t)\n\nYou cannot judge someone when they are in this kind of desperate state, as I have said there\'s no such thing as morals. And you could hunt and rip apart a creature (human and non-human) with no regrets at all. \n\n\n*thanks to national geographc and the history channel for that.','',0,'gA==','hehlsj62',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18724,2137,16,1123,0,'84.30.73.160',1164993836,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','As far as I know you still can order things if you live outside Europe. But I found this on the internet:::\n1 Euro  = 1.33228 USD \nso maybe that will help you with calculating <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->','',0,'gA==','28x0d7gk',1,0,'',1123,0,0),(18731,2137,16,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164995393,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','NYC rocker: If the shit went down at a big demo/march and the police start, you do not wanna stand out, I don\'t even were my badges for things like that! (I live with my badges on!) You wanna slip away and act normal, I\'m not into fighting the police and getting beaten up thank-you-very-much! I\'d rather live and fight another day.\nPlus some people aren\'t supportive either and explaining to them why to support the ALF diverts the attention away from the issue, so it\'s just best not to.','',0,'gA==','3dskaolt',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18736,538,22,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1164999517,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;AutomaticMan&quot;:2kvebla2]If you really were starving to death your morals would go out of the window.\nThe science bit*: When you\'re body is devoid of food it shuts down parts that are not vital as we know. Our advanced cerebal cortex is eventually (almost the last thing) shut down. Goodbye advanced thinking, all that\'s left is a \'reptilian brain\' and that simply wants food, drink, sleep shelter etc all the *needs* for life. Which explains how people can resort to cannibalism, you\'d have to be incredibly strong willed to resist this basic urge to eat. Once you have eaten the \'mammalian brain\' is back again and you will think about what you have done. Thus even you and me may eat an animal if the above situation happens (pray that it doesn\'t)\n\nYou cannot judge someone when they are in this kind of desperate state, as I have said there\'s no such thing as morals. And you could hunt and rip apart a creature (human and non-human) with no regrets at all. \n\n\n*thanks to national geographc and the history channel for that.[/quote:2kvebla2]\n\n    Ok....again I know this is all hypothetical.....but remember, many, many people chose to commit suicide because their life has become\nunbearable.....I\'m pretty sure if I was in such a terrible situation like\nthe man who ate the cat......I would chose NOT to eat the cat. Not because\nof any morals or ethics....but for the purly selfish reason I would  WANT to\ndie if my life was so miserable.  Not everybody has such a strong will to\nlive....or like I said, there\'d be no suicides.','',0,'gA==','2kvebla2',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(18737,538,22,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1164999703,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','True and some people may do that. I don\'t know what I\'d do, it\'s not something I really think about!\nI still think the chances are you\'d eat an animal, maybe you\'d eat your excrement first and arms and legs but eventually if you wanted to live you\'d have to eat. Although there should never really be a situation like that, there\'s plants/fruit/seeds/roots etc everywhere!','',0,'gA==','3a6j58jz',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18740,2137,16,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1165000588,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Ooooh I see, AutoMan. Gotcha. ;) Makes perfect sense.\n\nI\'m still new here and trying to get the 411. <!-- s:) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif\" alt=\":)\" title=\"Very Happy\" /><!-- s:) --> And what &quot;badges&quot; do you wear that you are talking about?\n\nAt my next gig I am going to wear a bloody MEAT IS MURDER shirt. Trying to find more ways to spread the word. \nAnd thank you all for your help and ideas.  <!-- s:cheerleader: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/cheerleader.gif\" alt=\":cheerleader:\" title=\"cheerleader\" /><!-- s:cheerleader: -->','',0,'gA==','yob7okk1',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18741,2137,16,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1165001012,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I have a collection of animal rights/liberation badges I ALWAYS wear.\nRanging from &quot;If you love animals why eat them?&quot; to &quot;go smash a battery farm&quot; and my favourite &quot;dennis the mennis says bash a softy meat eater!&quot;\nSome are classics, but lots of groups sell some really good ones.\nI wouldn\'t be out without them!\n\nNYC Rocker-What gig are you going to?','',0,'gA==','2gcylf9o',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18755,2057,3,1702,0,'129.44.216.117',1165008937,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:1f54id8w] People who argue against animals having equal rights to humans say that humans are \'at the top of the food chain\', more sophisticated, etc.........which defies their argument really. [/quote:1f54id8w]\n\nI don\'t see how animals can possibly have the same rights as people. Human rights are based on our abilitiey to be responsible members of society. This required responsibility is what entitles individuals to make claims about their rights. An individual must prove themselves or earn access to these rights.\n\nThe right to vote is denied to individuals under the age of 18, certain violent felons, and people whom are not citizens. The right to bear arms is denied to violent felons and particular age groups. The right to freedom is denied to criminals. The commonality among these characteristics which are used to deny individual rights is that this characteristic represents an inability to function as a productive member of society. It should be obvious to all people that non-human animals have inherrent differences that prevent them from functioning as a member of human society.\n\nHence, as animals cannot function as a member of our society, they are not designated or afforded the same rights as humans.','',0,'gA==','1f54id8w',1,0,'',1702,0,0),(18756,2057,3,2,0,'208.53.138.224',1165009305,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','FAQs','skippyzippy\n\n[quote:z6y12i6c]I don\'t see how animals can possibly have the same rights as people.[/quote:z6y12i6c] \n\nNo animal rights philosophers say that animals have all the same rights as humans (feel free to do research and correct me, if you wish).\n\nThis is covered in the FAQs, which are required reading to participate in this forum.\n\nIf someone on this board makes that claim, then please reference it in your post.','',0,'gA==','z6y12i6c',1,0,'',2,0,0),(18759,2137,16,1649,0,'70.23.65.249',1165014107,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Oh yeah AutoMan, I know what you mean. I have those too, they are always on my backpack. Like &quot;Be Nice to Mice - Don\'t Test On Them&quot;. \nI have to get some more.\n\nRe: next gig: I meant next time I play (I\'m a rock musician) I will wear an animal rights shirt. Because that\'s when I have exposure to a lot of people at once. I will just keep wearing as many animal rights messages as I can and spread the word in my own way however I can.','',0,'gA==','34gqf1ft',1,0,'',1649,0,0),(18765,2001,12,1644,0,'207.135.146.162',1165017284,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Looks like the dark underbelly of the corporate state has used it\'s lobbyists almost successfully in this one. <!-- s:evil: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif\" alt=\":evil:\" title=\"Evil or Very Mad\" /><!-- s:evil: --> \nIf AETA does turn into law then more power to facisism and unethical corporate control.  What amazes me is that this is the first I\'ve heard of AETA.  I haven\'t seen anything on it in the newspaper, national news media, (no surprise there) or in other news sources.\nWhy do I lose more respect for this governments leaders the more I find out about what they are about.  <!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->','',0,'gA==','2n3jmm5f',1,0,'',1644,0,0),(18773,2001,12,51,0,'69.92.104.216',1165022599,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;gmickel&quot;:21b4d7ut]What amazes me is that this is the first I\'ve heard of AETA.  I haven\'t seen anything on it in the newspaper, national news media, (no surprise there) or in other news sources.\n[/quote:21b4d7ut]\n\nARA\'s have been on the radar for decades.  Larger groups like the ELF and ALF have been considered domestic terrorist groups for years.  AETA is simply the govts response to an ongoing problem.','',0,'gA==','21b4d7ut',1,0,'',51,0,0),(18775,1386,18,1695,0,'71.240.171.106',1165025731,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I admit it- I love love love ice cream.\nAnd I have a very tight budget.\n\nI\'m now vegan, so i dole out the 4 or 5 bucks for a pint of Tofutti... sometimes my boyfriend has the ice cream sandwiches.\n\nBefore going vegan, i was vegetarian for 5 years, ate the crappy blue bell stuff.\n\nEw.','',0,'gA==','3lkaq8nq',1,0,'',1695,0,0),(18777,2126,32,1695,0,'71.240.171.106',1165026728,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Food Not Bombs did some sort of Thanksgiving feast. They usually do 1-2 feasts per week.\n\nIf you contacted them(not quite sure how you\'d go about doing that.), and under given circumstances they would probably accomodate special needs.\n\nFNB [url:3619jzs1]http&#58;//www&#46;foodnotbombs&#46;net/[/url:3619jzs1] is a  organization that doesn\'t work for profits. Running them doesn\'t cost too terribly much either\nThey cook vegan meals out of undamaged dumpstered goods.\n\nI\'ve had a meal or two from them.\nGood... and its not all crappy.','',0,'EA==','3619jzs1',1,0,'',1695,0,0),(18780,2126,32,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165039797,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am fine Scavenger. Thanks for the info. It is basically my Mom who gets the stuff I am just her legs as she is bed ridden. I buy her whatever the State does not provide as I am full time employed. I just felt a need to rant because the poor in our culture are treated wrong. When I was picking up my moms food I saw a woman who could not even stand upright and was leaned over on a walker. The shelter people gave her prompt service instead of making her wait in line which seems fine but many people were bitching at her. The quality of the food given to the majority of people who need help are divided into three main groups elderly, ill(disability or disease), and parents. It just disgusts me that the weakest in this country often get the shit. It kills me how many times I am running errands for my mom and I see how many elderly and disabled struggle and get no help while others suck off the system. I know a man who is retired and has severe hearing loss thus qualifing for some help. Sounds legit but the prob is he is a rich SOB who goes on a cruise once a year. So the people who are truly in need get worse stuff as they are stretching further to help people who don\'t need it. While I can help my mom I cannot provide everything so I accept all the state help she is eligible for which with her condition is a fair amt. as she need 24 hr a day care meaning people are here sitting with her when I work. They do light house work and some cooking and get her meals in bed when I am not around. She is still able to feed herself but cannot get the food to her bedroom.\n\n\nThanks again for the suggestion.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','1oyulq7v',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18784,1386,18,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165041162,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Some vegans do not accept Tofutti as vegan as it uses white sugar. White sugar is oftem bleached by straining through charred bones. Turtle Mountain is vegan and delicious.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','1uxntf0o',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18786,538,22,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165042644,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Delving into the gauche....\n\nYou could actually survive for a small stint on yourself. If you need protien you could actually drink your own blood in small portions of course this would only last so long. Your blood does replensh so you could do for short period say for instance if you were stranded on top of a moutain after a storm and you knew help was on the way. Again highly unlikely but possible. I am sure some brain disease could be caused from prolonged exposure to repeated human blood intake but short exposure may be a happier alternative than death in extreme situations.\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'EA==','mik0kkbt',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18793,2137,16,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1165052857,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Wow a rock musician!  <!-- s8) --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif\" alt=\"8)\" title=\"Cool\" /><!-- s8) --> \nYou could sell books and give out leaflets at gigs an all, I\'m sure any local activists would love to do a stall at one. \nGood luck!','',0,'EA==','bxwzgo6n',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18799,1386,18,575,0,'217.43.133.143',1165055390,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Isn\'t the organic tofutti ice cream vegan? &quot;Organic Raw Cane Sugar&quot;\n\nBecause they sell strawberry and vanilla organic tofutti ice cream in my local supermarket (which is a shock from them as they ain\'t very vegan friendly)...they also sell Swedish Glace Chocolate non-dairy ice cream &lt;3','',0,'EA==','37n6gpqa',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18801,1386,18,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1165056665,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Swedish Glace is my favourite! \nMuch better than toffuti anyway!','',0,'EA==','bwuindll',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18805,1386,18,575,0,'217.43.133.143',1165061071,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;AutomaticMan&quot;:vlyxyp5e]Swedish Glace is my favourite! \nMuch better than toffuti anyway![/quote:vlyxyp5e]\n\nYeah, shame it\'s so addictive and goes quickly!','',0,'gA==','vlyxyp5e',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18806,1386,18,674,0,'217.44.0.212',1165063753,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Yeah, I\'m gonna eat some right now!\nI love vanilla not to keen on the raspberry or chocolate though.\n\nIt\'s great to give to someone and then say \'That\'s cruelty-free!\' and look at their stunned expression as they thought it was dairy!','',0,'gA==','2ntx2yet',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18807,2159,1,897,0,'72.18.101.212',1165069723,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','More Racism in America','[b:2tazanp4]More Racism in America[/b:2tazanp4]\nFriday Dec. 1, 2006\n\nWASHINGTON (Reuters)- When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly. \n\nThe first caller to the station in Washington said that Klein must be &quot;off his rocker.&quot; The second congratulated him and added: &quot;Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their forehead but you ship them out of this country ... they are here to kill us.&quot;\n\nAnother said that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver\'s licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. &quot;What good is identifying them?&quot; he asked. &quot;You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans.&quot;\n\nAt the end of the one-hour show, rich with arguments on why visual identification of &quot;the threat in our midst&quot; would alleviate the public\'s fears, Klein revealed that he had staged a hoax. It drew out reactions that are not uncommon in post-9/11 America.\n\n&quot;I can\'t believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said,&quot; he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.wmal.com/\">http://www.wmal.com/</a><!-- m -->), which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland\n\n&quot;For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people\'s bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver\'s license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It\'s beyond disgusting.\n\n&quot;Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous.&quot;\n\nThe show aired on November 26, the Sunday after the Thanksgiving holiday, and Klein said in an interview afterwards he had been surprised by the response.\n\n&quot;The switchboard went from empty to totally jammed within minutes,&quot; said Klein. &quot;There were plenty of callers angry with me, but there were plenty who agreed.&quot;\n\nPOLLS SHOW WIDESPREAD ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT\n\nThose in agreement are not a fringe minority: A Gallup poll this summer of more than 1,000 Americans showed that 39 percent were in favor of requiring Muslims in the United States, including American citizens, to carry special identification.\n\nRoughly a quarter of those polled said they would not want to live next door to a Muslim and a third thought that Muslims in the United States sympathized with al Qaeda, the extremist group behind the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.\n\nA poll carried out by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), an advocacy group, found that for one in three Americans, the word Islam triggers negative connotations such as &quot;war,&quot; &quot;hatred&quot; and &quot;terrorist.&quot; The war in        Iraq has contributed to such perceptions.\n\nKlein\'s show followed a week of heated discussions on talk radio, including his own, and online forums over an incident on November 22 involving six Muslim clerics. They were handcuffed and taken off a US Airways flight after passengers reported &quot;suspicious behavior&quot; that included praying in the departure gate area.\n\nThe clerics, on their way to a meeting of the North American Imams Federation, were detained in a holding cell, questioned by police and        FBI agents, and released. Muslim community leaders saw the incident as yet more evidence of anti-Muslim prejudice.\n\nIGNORANCE SEEN AS KEY PROBLEM\n\nSeveral American Muslims interviewed on the subject of prejudice over the past few weeks said ignorance was at the core of the problem.\n\n&quot;The level of knowledge is very, very low,&quot; said Mohamed Esa, a U.S. Muslim of Arab descent who teaches a course on Islam at McDaniel College in Maryland. &quot;There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and some people think they are all terrorists.&quot; \n\nHossam Ahmed, a retired Air Force Reserve colonel who occasionally leads prayer meetings for the small Muslim congregation at the        Pentagon, agreed. &quot;Ignorance is the number one problem. Education is of the essence.&quot; \n\nThere are no hard figures on how many Muslims have been subject to harassment or prejudice and community leaders say that ugly incidents can prompt spontaneous expressions of support. Such as the e-mail a Minneapolis woman sent to CAIR after the imams were taken off their flight. \n\n&quot;I would like to ... help,&quot; the e-mail said. &quot;While I cannot offer plane tickets, I would be happy to drive at least 2 or 3 of them. My car is small, but at least some of our hearts in this land of the free are large.&quot; \n\nAnd optimists saw signs of change in the November 4 election of the first Muslim to the U.S. House of Representatives, which has 435 members. \n\nDemocrat Keith Ellison, a 43-year-old African-American lawyer, did not stress his religion during his campaign for a Minnesota seat, but said his victory would &quot;signal to people who are not Muslims that Muslims have a lot to offer to the United States and the improvement of our country.&quot; \n\n****************************************\n\'F*** the Nazis\' video: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=729239242991187574&amp;q=portland+activism\">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... d+activism</a><!-- m -->\n\n\'Peace Institute\' video: <!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7225628124211107620&amp;q=portland+activism\">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... d+activism</a><!-- m -->\n\n*****************************************','',0,'QA==','2tazanp4',1,0,'',897,0,0),(18810,1386,18,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165075116,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Chenli,\n\nI am not sure about that it is not available around here. I know regular Tofutti uses white sugar. If it say raw sugar though it most likely is call company to double check.\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QA==','3j46vzp9',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18812,2126,32,1695,0,'71.240.171.106',1165075382,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I understand what you mean... I know people with similar situations. It\'s very angering because some people are getting money from the government for scams(i.e. saying they are severly disabled with mental retardation and other similar issues, when they are not). From what I understand you live in the U.K.? I\'m not sure how their aids for the poor are over there, but from what you are saying not good.\n\nI wish you and your mother the best of luck.\nShe is lucky to have you.','',0,'QA==','2yqxhbeu',1,0,'',1695,0,0),(18815,2126,32,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165075791,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I am in Rhode Island. It is part of USA. TY for the well wishes.\n\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'QA==','o1xtu56k',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18818,2126,32,674,0,'81.152.42.31',1165076407,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'m not super well-up on how the poor are aided over here, but there is always some scandal about bad treatment to the vulnerable that infuriates me! \nIn the elderly/disabled homes and what-not.\nThere may be a few differences but all-in-all it\'s probably no better or worse. It\'s a sad state of affairs really.','',0,'QA==','3genynkf',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18842,1386,18,1015,0,'152.163.100.5',1165105039,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;VeganAngel_RI&quot;:3u075mkn]Some vegans do not accept Tofutti as vegan as it uses white sugar. White sugar is oftem bleached by straining through charred bones.Turtle Mountain is vegan and delicious.VeganAngel_RI[/quote:3u075mkn]\n\n    yeah..... [url=http&#58;//www&#46;turtlemountain&#46;com:3u075mkn][color=blue:3u075mkn][b:3u075mkn]Turtle Mountain[/b:3u075mkn][/color:3u075mkn][/url:3u075mkn] is so delicious I\'m surprised it\'s even legal.\n  And they sell it lots of places in the US','',0,'0g==','3u075mkn',1,0,'',1015,0,0),(18850,2126,32,1565,0,'24.117.221.155',1165120676,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Vegan - I know exactly what you mean.  I live in probably the worst state in the US.  I live in Biloxi, Mississippi which was almost wiped off the map with hurricane Katrina.  We were lucky (I live with and take care of my father) in that we lost only a back porch, roof damage and of course tree damage, but we were still able to live here while everything was being repaired.  There are thousands of people here that are still living in FEMA trailers and some even in tents.  The government in Washington has given millions of dollars to the coastal counties but we have no idea what they are doing with it.  They are not building any apartments which are badly needed.  The apartments that are left have raised their prices to ridiculous amounts so the middle class people can\'t even afford them.  It\'s like no one wants to help anyone else.  There are two shelters which provide meals daily but like you said you have to go and get it.  The local newspaper runs ads of elderly and disabled people needing rides to doctors appts. and such and I have done that when I can.\n\nWhat really makes me mad though are the people that can work and won\'t work - they just prefer to live off of what FEMA is still giving them.  FEMA has caught quite a few who put in false claims and were given substantial amounts of money immediately after Katrina.  They are investigating all claims and some people have even been given two year prison terms - which they deserve.\n\nNew Orleans\' mayor is even worse.  CNN has done several shows on what New Orleans is doing with the money allocated by the government.  They call the series &quot;Keeping them Honest&quot;.  The lower ninth ward of New Orleans was completely underwater as I am sure everyone saw on TV.  All of these houses are still standing there - they haven\'t even been torn down - the mayor does not want the people who used to live there back in the city.  About 100,000 of them were evacuated to Texas and have nothing to go back to in New Orleans.  This has presented a problem in Houston.\n\nThere is still a terrible pet problem.  Organizations are still in New Orleans trying to catch the stray dogs and cats that are steadily reproducing.  They leave food and water at every corner for these animals daily but if they can\'t catch them (the poor pets are terrified - they don\'t know why their lives have been turned upside down) the problem will continue.\n\nThey passed a new law allowing pets to be evacuated with their owners but it\'s a little too late.\n\nI hope I didn\'t get too much off of your subject but just agreeing that the government definitely is not fair.','',0,'0g==','v9vk5yby',1,0,'',1565,0,0),(18852,2126,32,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165124558,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Not far off subject at all. As I said what I was writing about was not the worst problem of all by any means but a drop in the bucket of a completely corrupt govermental infrastructure. One thing about Katrina is it has got me off my ass a little as far as ER prep after seeing how badly the govt let everyone down. I live on water and get flooded several times yearly from regular storms nevermind something like that. I have all sorts of ER gear ready to go at a moments notice including water filtration, medical, cleaning, extra clothes, food, cleaning supplies, and money. With my moms handicap I need to be extra prepared and ready to evacuate her as she cannot walk. I still have more to prep but I am way better prepared now than I was before. After seeing what the govt. didn\'t do I am not trusting them at all. When I was a small child I remember a flash flood were we had no warning and I had to be carried out by my parents as the water was over my head with minutes mind you I was like 5 so not that tall. But anyway in the aftermath my block lost power for over a week. It was fun at that time but as a child you do not realize all the bad parts. We were one of the few families that could cook as we had a gas stove and many had electric stoves so to me it was like a big party with all the neighbors over the house.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'0g==','2gek2i46',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18857,2057,3,1626,0,'84.196.135.199',1165136839,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','i think morrisey hit the spot when he sang this;\n&quot;It\'s death for no reason \nAnd death for no reason is MURDER&quot;\n\nthere\'s indeed no good reason to kill animals in the numbers and ways that we do. actually, you might just say that \'meat = genocide\' these days...','',0,'0g==','32jtigmj',1,0,'',1626,0,0),(18901,2057,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165265545,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=darkblue:1b1fszf9]From what I have read in this topic forum, I haven’t seen anyone mention humans hunting game animals for food. **DO NOT MISTAKE THIS AS HUNTING FOR SPORT** Everyone has been talking about the eating of animals like cows and chickens and how that is murder. But what about getting meat the old fashion way? Is hunting an animal yourself specifically for food murder? Does this not have @ least one pro which outweighs its cons? What about population control? Is this not the same as a lion killing a water buffalo and eating it? Is this considered ok? Is it the same as the lion, out of necessity? I understand what you guys are saying about the farm animals being eaten and all that but I am curious about this.<!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->  <!-- s:eyes: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eyes.gif\" alt=\":eyes:\" title=\"confused\" /><!-- s:eyes: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->[/color:1b1fszf9]','',0,'Ag==','1b1fszf9',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18904,2057,3,575,0,'86.145.115.97',1165266307,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;kittycat&quot;:3ipnpbck][color=darkblue:3ipnpbck]From what I have read in this topic forum, I haven’t seen anyone mention humans hunting game animals for food. **DO NOT MISTAKE THIS AS HUNTING FOR SPORT** Everyone has been talking about the eating of animals like cows and chickens and how that is murder. But what about getting meat the old fashion way? Is hunting an animal yourself specifically for food murder? Does this not have @ least one pro which outweighs its cons? What about population control? Is this not the same as a lion killing a water buffalo and eating it? Is this considered ok? Is it the same as the lion, out of necessity? I understand what you guys are saying about the farm animals being eaten and all that but I am curious about this.<!-- s:thinking: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif\" alt=\":thinking:\" title=\"I\'m thinking\" /><!-- s:thinking: -->  <!-- s:eyes: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eyes.gif\" alt=\":eyes:\" title=\"confused\" /><!-- s:eyes: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->[/color:3ipnpbck][/quote:3ipnpbck]\n\nI see hunting just as bad as buying meat from a shop. The hunter at least, can see the suffering he causes yet chooses to continue.\n\nPopulation control is an excuse used by hunters in order to back up their pathetic acts of murder. Animals breed due to instinct to drive their species forward, it\'s not their fault if they are breeding like mad. They don\'t know whether their natural predator has declined in numbers or not. And mother nature is what keeps populations stable. Mother nature should be left to her own devices, not tampered with.\n\nAnd no, it\'s not the same as the lion killing the buffalo, because the lion acts on instinct and not choice. Also, the lion is a carnivore so needs to eat meat to survive. We don\'t + we act on choice.','',0,'gg==','3ipnpbck',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18905,2018,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165266538,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=darkblue:sfyj0uhz]What about elephant\'s recognizing dead elephant bones, which is proven? What about each member of an elephant heard taking a turn to go forward to the dead ones remains, again proven? Oh and, this is my favorite, elephants breaking into buildings and taking elephant bones, has been documented. And baboons staying beside the body of a dead baboon they knew for hours, proven?[/color:sfyj0uhz]','',0,'Ag==','sfyj0uhz',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18906,2057,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165267550,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=darkblue:1527wsj1]No, animals can not help over breeding or not knowing a predator population has declined. \nBut neither can we help that we are capable of being able to make a choice to eat meat or not. Are meat eaters being ridiculed because they have the brain size to choose what to eat? Humans have evolved to where we are now, there is no tuning back. That doesn’t mean we need to eat meat no, of course. \nDon’t omnivores have a choice between meat and plants? Yes, they eat what is available, but are there not times where they have a choice?\nI do see what you mean about hunting for food possibly using population control as an excuse. And yes Mother Nature can control high populations herself. But think about what would happen before Mother Nature comes in to save the day. \nI just want to clarify... I am not for eating meat here... I am just bringing these things up....[/color:1527wsj1]','',0,'Ag==','1527wsj1',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18907,2057,3,575,0,'86.145.115.97',1165268220,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','You kinda answered your own questions there...heh.','',0,'Ag==','157cfk4u',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18910,2057,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165271026,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Do you mean my question in my first post? I really didnt have a question I wanted answered. I just wondered what everyone thought about it. I know how I feel about it, but I wondered what you guys had to say. \nI couldn\'t have answered my own question if there wasnt one.','',0,'Ag==','2bioass3',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18912,2057,3,575,0,'86.145.115.97',1165273713,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;kittycat&quot;:3q1qk7qw][color=darkblue:3q1qk7qw]No, animals can not help over breeding or not knowing a predator population has declined. \nBut neither can we help that we are capable of being able to make a choice to eat meat or not. Are meat eaters being ridiculed because they have the brain size to choose what to eat? Humans have evolved to where we are now, there is no tuning back. That doesn’t mean we need to eat meat no, of course. \nDon’t omnivores have a choice between meat and plants? Yes, they eat what is available, but are there not times where they have a choice?\nI do see what you mean about hunting for food possibly using population control as an excuse. And yes Mother Nature can control high populations herself. But think about what would happen before Mother Nature comes in to save the day. \nI just want to clarify... I am not for eating meat here... I am just bringing these things up....[/color:3q1qk7qw][/quote:3q1qk7qw]\n\nI meant this one ^^^','',0,'gg==','3q1qk7qw',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18918,2057,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165282768,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','But I didn\'t have a question. I was just purposing ideas.','',0,'gg==','3r49ztqh',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18927,2057,3,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165300289,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I think it depends on the hunter. A hunter in lets say USA is the same to me as any other carnivore. A person in a hardship situation such as living in a tribal area of Africa may have no other way to eat. I can understand them eating meat better. I deally if we all lived correctly world wide even those people would not need to eat meat as there would be institutions to help make these lands viable crop producing areas thus they would be able to be vegheads also eventually.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gg==','175face7',1,0,'',372,0,0),(18947,2057,3,575,0,'217.43.129.63',1165324265,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;kittycat&quot;:32ks62o2]But I didn\'t have a question. I was just purposing ideas.[/quote:32ks62o2]\n\nQuestion marks suggested otherwise :S\n\nUnless they where rhetorical...','',0,'gA==','32ks62o2',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18963,2137,16,124,0,'208.38.12.26',1165342823,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','tee hee...on that cafepress site, I LOVE that design that says &quot;animals die to keep your fat ass alive&quot;.   <!-- s:loudlaff: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/loudlaff.gif\" alt=\":loudlaff:\" title=\"loud laugh\" /><!-- s:loudlaff: -->','',0,'gA==','2lcv4r2a',1,0,'',124,0,0),(18964,2137,16,575,0,'81.152.218.255',1165342984,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','o0o0o, linky!','',0,'gA==','24vut56t',1,0,'',575,0,0),(18971,2057,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165347542,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=darkblue:2v42ep7w]They were rhetorical... [/color:2v42ep7w]','',0,'Ag==','2v42ep7w',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(18973,2006,16,124,0,'208.38.12.26',1165347949,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','I use Method dishwashing soap and I just love it!  The grapefruit soap smells ever so delicious! yyuuummmyyyyyyy  It is definately worth trying.','',0,'Ag==','142utkmb',1,0,'',124,0,0),(18977,2006,16,674,0,'81.152.42.31',1165349416,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I\'ll have to see if this is stocked anywhere round here?\n\nJugding by the orgasmic reviews it sounds very good!','',0,'Ag==','3blcm1cw',1,0,'',674,0,0),(18978,2075,19,871,0,'72.31.11.162',1165350485,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Dexter the dog - owner moved and dropped he and his brother off on the highway.  Adopted him from a rescue group.  My best friend.  \n\nAngel the cat - the people down the street adopted her from the Humane Society and then proceeded to declaw her and throw her outside to &quot;live.&quot;  She was never fed and no one even looked at her.  My daughters and I fed her.  Then they moved and left her.  I did not want a cat at the time; I was insistant.  But we did feed her and such.  Then one day I was leaving my house and my daughters started screaming; there was a huge rattlesnake shaking and posed to strike on my front porch.  All of the sudden this petite and dainty pure white cat jumped out of nowhere and attacked the snake.  We were all hysterical as the snake and the cat vanished into the vacant lot next door.  We were certain she was dead when she came trotting out, calm as can be.  Sat down and proceeded to groom herself like nothing happened.  We carried her into the house, named her Angel and she has been the mother of the house ever since.  \n\nCinnamon - the last of 4 guinea pig rescues.  Were left at a vacant house.  All have lived a long, long, long time!  \n\nJames and Lily Potter - two cockatiels who were left to starve on a front porch after the owner died.  \n\nNot to mention Esmerelda the rat, Cheese the mouse and all of the others we have known and loved.  \n\nI love this post!','',0,'Ag==','6n8898ec',1,0,'',871,0,0),(18982,2030,22,1418,0,'24.226.45.71',1165360784,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','And what about the people who  cause terror and pain to animals? I do not think ALF members should threaten another persons life..but I do not think that breaking into buildings to rescue terrorized animals, or the destruction of such properties to be a terrorist act. My definition of a terrorist is someone who causes harm to another living being.','',0,'Ag==','dqxfx89r',1,0,'',1418,0,0),(18984,2057,3,1418,0,'24.226.45.71',1165374683,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','It is all so simple..\n\nEVERY BEING ON THIS PLANET HAS THE RIGHT TO A NATURAL LIFE AND A NATURAL DEATH.\n\nAny argument for the right of humans to raise, torture, or experiment on animals for their own purpose, is non existent.','',0,'Ag==','3sqj9rgy',1,0,'',1418,0,0),(18993,2057,3,1565,0,'24.117.221.155',1165391180,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Bluest1 - You said it perfectly!!\n\nThank you.','',0,'Ag==','38q8yh9d',1,0,'',1565,0,0),(19004,2030,22,454,0,'65.160.148.200',1165404141,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Is breeking into a building to sav terrized people a terrorist act? \nI beleev most folks wood call it a rescue.I beleev it shood be called the same thing breeking into a building saving a terrized animal.\nPeople hav no rite to hold a person aganst its will just to torture and xperiment on it nomore then people hav the rite to hold animals aganst their will just to torture and xperiment on them.People who test on animals are terrorists.People who murder animals are terrorists.People who catch animals and use them for circuses and lock them up in zoos are TERRORISTS.\nALF is not a terrorist group.ALF is Seek and Rescue.','',0,'Ag==','2k63pro1',1,0,'',454,0,0),(19007,2057,3,575,0,'81.152.218.255',1165406905,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote=&quot;Charmagne&quot;:57en757t]Bluest1 - You said it perfectly!!\n\nThank you.[/quote:57en757t]\n\nAgreed. Tis a shame anti-ar people will no doubt resort to &quot;animals don\'t have rights&quot; to argue it though.','',0,'gA==','57en757t',1,0,'',575,0,0),(19034,2131,13,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165420756,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','As far as I know, hunting has never been about becoming a man. Where did all that start? It\'s about speding time in the outdoors, the thrill of the hunt, doing what we\'ve been doing since forever. Do you have to like it? Of course not. Should you their choice to? I think so. There are bigger things to worry about right now than hunting. Our focus needs to be shifted.\n\n\nSo hunting is about &quot;doing what we\'ve been douing since forever&quot; \n\nSo because we did something in the past it makes it right? Child molestation, slavery, spousal abuse all from the past right through to the present hardlay makes them right.\n\n&quot;There are bigger things to worry about right now than hunting. Our focus needs to be shifted.&quot;\n\nYou may want to check out the Human Freedom section to see that ARA care about human rights also.\n\nAlso look in the Open section for a discussion on Simple Living which many people on this board do to varying extents as best they can.\n\n\nParents worry about their child being kidnapped or molested or killed, they also worry about paying the rent or mortgage. Just as parents can think about more than one thing so can an ARA.\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'gA==','2pb6398a',1,0,'',372,0,0),(19050,102,18,1710,0,'72.1.206.12',1165434270,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','haha in the us smarties are a different product then like the rest of the world. i was quite shocked to find out. the us smarties are a hard candie suspiciosly resembling rockets :P and the uk/ canadian version is a candy covered chocolate treat alot like m&amp;ms \n\n\nus smarties:\n\n[img:3aplw4ps]http&#58;//www&#46;simong&#46;org/Favourite/images/61/smarties-us&#46;jpg[/img:3aplw4ps]\n\nUk smarties:\n\n[img:3aplw4ps]http&#58;//www&#46;ukstudentlife&#46;com/Travel/Tours/England/York/Smarties&#46;jpg[/img:3aplw4ps]','',0,'CA==','3aplw4ps',1,0,'',1710,0,0),(19061,2057,3,1702,0,'70.16.52.135',1165440962,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:3hxt5ith] Ideally if we all lived correctly world wide even those people would not need to eat meat as there would be institutions to help make these lands viable crop producing areas thus they would be able to be vegheads also eventually.[/quote:3hxt5ith]\n\nSo you are proposing that &quot;we&quot; should force a western way of life and unnatural agricultural processes upon foreign cultures? I believe that people should be left to make their own decisions and live as they see fit.\n\nThere is nothing stopping you or anybody else from funding and creating a private institution to instruct third-world populations on a voluntary basis about western agriculture and vegan food sources. However, it is far easier to create these ideas of forcing people to change their way of life with other people\'s money...\n\n[quote:3hxt5ith] \nAnd no, it\'s not the same as the lion killing the buffalo, because the lion acts on instinct and not choice. Also, the lion is a carnivore so needs to eat meat to survive. We don\'t + we act on choice.[/quote:3hxt5ith]\n\nLions and carnivores are not the only animals to consume the flesh of other animals. Orangutans and chimpanzees are intelligent primates that are capable of conscious choice. Orangutans are mostly fruitarians and do not need to eat meat to love. However, they infrequently kill and eat slow lorises, another primate. Chimpanzees are omnivores that are known to go out hunting monkeys. \n\nThe idea that these animals are not aware of their actions or the pain that they are causing is simply an uneducated and uninformed notion. A captive bonobo, a more peaceful relative of the chimpanzee, attempted to help an injured bird by placing it in a tree to rest it\'s broken wing. After a few days, the bonobo climbed to the top of the tree and attempted to throw the bird like a paper-airplane in an attempt to help it fly. This is a clear example of reasoning and recognition of another animal\'s suffering by a non-human great ape. Orangutans and chimpanzees are also very intelligent apes capable of tool use and reasoning.','',0,'gA==','3hxt5ith',1,0,'',1702,0,0),(19062,2018,3,1702,0,'70.16.52.135',1165441870,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','Baboons','[quote:hlozgogv] And baboons staying beside the body of a dead baboon they knew for hours [/quote:hlozgogv]\n\nBaboons have shown an intense and intricate societal structure. There are documented assaults by a male baboon (A) upon a smaller female baboon (B). However, A almost never seriously injures B, it seems more to be an attempt to scare B. Eventually, a correlation was noted between these attacks by A against B and attacks B has engaged in against the another female baboon C. Female baboon C is generally a friend or mate of the male baboon A that committed the assaults. This shows that these non-human primates are capable of complex communication, memory, reasoning, and vengence....','',0,'gA==','hlozgogv',1,0,'',1702,0,0),(19063,2057,3,575,0,'217.43.129.41',1165442413,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','[quote:1j9ie9wt] Lions and carnivores are not the only animals to consume the flesh of other animals. Orangutans and chimpanzees are intelligent primates that are capable of conscious choice. Orangutans are mostly fruitarians and do not need to eat meat to love. However, they infrequently kill and eat slow lorises, another primate. Chimpanzees are omnivores that are known to go out hunting monkeys. \n\nThe idea that these animals are not aware of their actions or the pain that they are causing is simply an uneducated and uninformed notion. A captive bonobo, a more peaceful relative of the chimpanzee, attempted to help an injured bird by placing it in a tree to rest it\'s broken wing. After a few days, the bonobo climbed to the top of the tree and attempted to throw the bird like a paper-airplane in an attempt to help it fly. This is a clear example of reasoning and recognition of another animal\'s suffering by a non-human great ape. Orangutans and chimpanzees are also very intelligent apes capable of tool use and reasoning.[/quote:1j9ie9wt]\n\nI do not believe that animals have the ability to make a concious choice the exact same that a human has said ability. It doesn\'t mean they\'re inferior though, but it certainly refutes the &quot;other animals do it so we should to&quot; argument. Which brings me to say, just because someone else/something else does something, does not mean you should follow suit.\n\nPlease reference this bonobo action. Also, how is an animal supposed to know what pain or a broken wing is when both are human &quot;concepts&quot;/&quot;explanations&quot;.','',0,'gA==','1j9ie9wt',1,0,'',575,0,0),(19065,2057,3,674,0,'81.152.42.31',1165442804,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Whilst the bonobo wasn\'t totally aware of what happend, they are very clever creatures, our closest relatives. Bit of a bad example to pick as, they have the largest testicle to body ratio in primates and are extremely randy, having sex with males, females, babies, their young etc multiple times which could be deemed as rape, and is definatly not something humans would say, \'well they do it\'...\n\nThey can not however, as chenli said, rationalize to the extent of me and you.','',0,'gA==','1002kwb9',1,0,'',674,0,0),(19071,2057,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165446103,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[quote:3dews4xa] I do not believe that animals have the ability to make a concious choice the exact same that a human has said ability.[/quote:3dews4xa]\nIs this not a proven fact? I mean..... brain size, adaption, all that. doesnt that say enough? Doesnt everyone believe that because its not something that can have two sides because it cant be disputed?','',0,'gA==','3dews4xa',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(19073,2018,3,1387,0,'152.53.13.94',1165446332,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','[color=darkblue:2nw0eu9d]Exactly! Does this not justify consciousness enough? [/color:2nw0eu9d]','',0,'Ag==','2nw0eu9d',1,0,'',1387,0,0),(19074,2057,3,575,0,'81.152.218.255',1165446495,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Kittycat, I\'m sorry, but I have no clue what you are on about!','',0,'Ag==','1pa8hycz',1,0,'',575,0,0),(19081,22,15,1418,0,'24.226.45.71',1165463164,1,0,1,1,1,0,'','','Iam sorry but I believe in a natural life.. I believe any being should live as nature intended.. I blelieve any being should die as nature intended..without any interference from humans.. Unless of course said being is suffering then I think help is needed.. I would want someone to help me if I was suffering.','',0,'Ag==','2djh2kum',1,0,'',1418,0,0),(19086,2131,13,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165469990,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','&quot; We have a responsiblilty to think about how our actions are affecting everything around us on this planet. I don\'t approve of senseless killing of animals, but since the majority of the population is not vegan, I would like to know that the killing of these animals are justified by providing food. &quot;\n\nI think you are trying to make us believe what you are doing is justified with this statement. You have not. I could kill my mother and eat her but that does not justify it.\n\n\n\n&quot;I see no difference in somebody buying meat at the grocery store and filling their fridge by hunting once or twice a year. Either way, meat will be consumed.&quot;\n\nCorrect shoppers and hunters who consume meat in my opinion are barbaric.\n\n\n&quot;That\'s how I feel about it at this time anyways. Hopefully someday there will be a more humane solution.&quot;\n\nThere is a more humane solution. Go vegan you cannot save the world but you will save a few more. Everyone you convert will save a few more that is more humane than throwing up your hands and saying problem to big oh well. Its like seeing 40 people drowning and saving one or none which is better?\n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'Ag==','hnbd52p8',1,0,'',372,0,0),(19088,102,18,372,0,'68.228.148.57',1165470692,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','OMG Someone in US did something right, this must be a mistake!!!!!!!\n\n <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: -->  <!-- s:lol: --><img src=\"{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif\" alt=\":lol:\" title=\"Laughing\" /><!-- s:lol: --> \n\nVeganAngel_RI','',0,'Ag==','1m54bb99',1,0,'',372,0,0),(19093,102,18,575,0,'81.152.218.255',1165501460,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','Pez are satan\'s sweeties. I can\'t stand them.','',0,'Ag==','3kgtplum',1,0,'',575,0,0),(19094,22,15,1695,0,'71.240.171.106',1165502570,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','to quote myself on another topic.\n\nPlease do not think I am trying to force my lifestyle on you., I often get accused of that. .  I am just trying to share information. \n\nPersonally, I do not feed my animals any brand of commericaly prepared pet foods. They are nutrionally deficit. In additon, the pet food industry exsists soley to finish out the meat industry. \n\nAs an alternative, I feed my animals meats and meat products that I\'ve got local delis and such to provide me with, that they would have otherwise thrown away. \n(I do not eat meat or dairy products, but I think it would be cruel to deprive my animals of it, as they eat meat in nature). \n\nIf you are intrested in reading about this from a professional point of veiw( keep in mind all information is bias), I found this article pretty good. Definatley worth the read. \n\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?more=1&amp;p=359\">http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?more=1&amp;p=359</a><!-- m -->','',0,'Ag==','1w3oeqbf',1,0,'',1695,0,0),(19097,22,15,674,0,'81.152.42.31',1165509567,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','','I don\'t know what animals you have, but I\'m pretty damn sure they wont naturally*  take down a horse/cow/pig etc.\n\n* There is nothing natural about \'pets\' and domesticated animals, a fabricated animal, in a fabricated environment will eat you what feed him/her, why does that have to be callous products when it could easily be compassionate ones?','',0,'Ag==','1du3i8od',1,0,'',674,0,0),(19104,2186,13,977,0,'81.159.1.151',1165521229,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','ANGER AT SHOOTING FAN KATE','4 December 2006\n\n\nANGER AT SHOOTING FAN KATE \n\n\n\nPRINCE William\'s girlfriend has angered animal rights campaigners by joining a shooting party at Sandringham. \n\nKate Middleton laughed and joked as she watched William blast pheasants and helped pick up dead birds on the Norfolk estate. \n\nAndrew Tyler, director of Animal Aid, said: &quot;It turns your stomach. \n\n&quot;I would have hoped that she might have talked some sense into William and persuaded him to give up shooting for fun. \n\n&quot;But sadly she is offering her support to his brutal habit and seems happy to join the latest generation of royal blood sport enthusiasts.&quot; \n\nAn onlooker said: &quot;Kate didn\'t actually do any shooting herself but she did help to pick up some dead birds.&quot; \n\nWilliam and Kate are thought to have stayed together at Sandringham before but Kate has always avoided photographers. \n\nOn Saturday she made no effort to hide, fuelling speculation they might soon get engaged. \n\n[url=http&#58;//www&#46;mirror&#46;co&#46;uk/news/tm_headline=anger-at-shooting-fan-kate-&amp;method=full&amp;objectid=18203834&amp;siteid=94762-name_page&#46;html:ysnn2o4d]Click[/url:ysnn2o4d]\n\n\n\n&quot;The world is a dangerous place,\nnot because of those who do evil,\nbut because of those who look on and do nothing.&quot; \n\n\n\n[url=http&#58;//www&#46;mirror&#46;co&#46;uk/news/tm_headline=anger-at-shooting-fan-kate-&amp;method=full&amp;objectid=18203834&amp;siteid=94762-name_page&#46;html:ysnn2o4d]Click[/url:ysnn2o4d]','',0,'EA==','ysnn2o4d',1,0,'',977,0,0),(19105,2187,28,1080,0,'62.136.205.118',1165524824,1,0,1,1,1,1,'','BUAV Slags Off ALF....AGAIN!','Willing to maim in the name of animals\n<!-- m --><a class=\"postlink\" href=\"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6215144.stm\">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6215144.stm</a><!-- m -->\n\nA leading animal rights extremist has been jailed for 12 years after admitting conducting an arson campaign against people he believed had links to the vivisection industry. But who was he and how significant is his conviction?\n\n\nThe prime minister will be among those who will take great pleasure in seeing Donald Currie locked up behind bars.\n\nCurrie, a 40-year-old animal rights campaigner, has been jailed after admitting a fire-bomb campaign which targeted individuals he believed were involved in experiments on animals, often referred to as vivisection.\n\nEarlier this year Tony Blair signed an online petition condemning the actions of animal rights extremists and backing the rights of those involved in animal testing.\n\nThe prime minister has often stressed the importance of science to the British economy and in May he said threats against GlaxoSmithKline shareholders showed why those in medical research had to be protected.\n\nCurrie took a very different view.\n\nThe unemployed father-of-three was fiercely opposed to experiments on animals and detectives believe he was the most important bomb-maker within the Animal Liberation Front (ALF).\n\n&quot;You\'re entitled to oppose vivisection and to change the minds of people but you can\'t enforce your views with violence&quot; - Judge Zoe Smith\n\nAnimal rights bomber jailed\n\nHe targeted homes of individuals connected with Huntingdon Life Sciences, a Cambridge-based animal research laboratory.\n\nSentencing Currie, Judge Zoe Smith told him: &quot;You\'re entitled to oppose vivisection and to change the minds of people but you can\'t enforce your views with violence.&quot;\n\nShe said his crimes were &quot;vicious&quot; and added: &quot;It\'s clear that you condone the use of violence and your use of it has escalated to a higher level. You are a risk to the public.&quot;\n\nCurrie was arrested in March after two crude but effective bombs, consisting of weedkiller and sugar, were found by police underneath a car parked outside a house in Berkshire.\n\nThe house belonged to the director of a courier firm understood to have dealings with clinical trials groups.\n\nCurrie also admitted targeting the home in Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, of Paul and Joan Blackburn in September 2005.\n\nMr Blackburn was the corporate controller of GlaxoSmithKline.\n\nALF claimed responsibility\n\nA third charge